We're a minority in gaming (or maybe a majority in Blizzard games, I guess?). People who research information about the game on the internet (forums, youtube videos, streams, posts, reddit, etc.) and try to stay as informed as possible. For most gamers that isn't important at all. That isn't what gaming is about.
Minority in both. Just visiting (or maybe even knowing about) this forum puts you in a minority. If you play in inferno at all, you're in a hardcore minority, and if you play in the "I'm farming MP10" zone, you are in the "1%".
It's funny how some people deemed D1 and D2 as "hardcore" and "complex" games, when in reality, back there for most RPG fans (pen and paper D&D guys) the Diablo franchise was considered the biggest "dumbing" down in the history of RPGs, appealing to "mass audiences" by making it easy to deal with everything by just spamming attacks or a single skill (whereas RPGs had much more complex mechanics).
Whenever I see someone claiming D3 has been dumbed down and that consoles and mass audiences are to blame for it, I think of those same things which were said about its predecessors.
I'm not sure that "dumbed down" is what I said?
Something interfered with the process here, regarding D3 now heading toward the end of it's second year. Somehow, a loot based game hit the market and went live on the web with loot that wasn't anywhere near ready, nor was the loot in this loot based game considered acceptable by anyone but the smallest of minorities among players.
This thread was meant to show how some people (me, I guess) had been proven "wrong" and, put on display as this threads topic, is supposed to be an exhibition of those whom lost faith in Blizzard (me again, I guess).
They lost my trust. Does anyone really blame me? Check my post history. Zero, you know. I kept my patience and defended this game for a long time. Where they lost my trust is in the fact that I feel they just didn't do enough to fix what they had presented as a finished product to the fans. Patch 1.04 was an acknowledgement by Blizzard that they had gone live with inferior loot in-game. It helped, but not near enough. Many items received only slightly boosted numbers with ranges WAY too far apart, sparkly particle effects and maybe a worthless summon/minion to distract and irritate all your friends.
I expected way more effort than that.... .. and that was over a year and a half ago. The only other thing they did was introduce a hastily thought out BoA crafting system that did add to the game, but this also served as subtraction by addition when the BoA crafts quickly rendered several slots as nearly useless drops. I sure haven't found a single pair of gloves that comes even remotely close to an average pair of BoA's I create and destroy without thought.
The "timing" of the console release versus much needed improvement to the PC game was the implication I meant by my comments regarding consoles and mass-appeal. ..How things got put on hold. Proper effort wasn't applied to salve the festering wound that is the D3 loot system.
They should've done more, considering all the verbiage we've heard from them since launch seems to confirm that they're aware the loot in D3 is sub-par at best.
But all this is in the past. I've made my peace. Just wanted to answer the thread. Yes, I lost trust in them. Blame me if you will. Just glad to see them fix it. After all, the ends justify the means and it looks like it will be worth the wait.
My post wasn't specifically aimed at you. Sorry if it sounded like that. It was aimed at some general feelings and comments that we usually see around. It's not uncommon to see people saying that, for instance, skill switching is dumbing down the game. Or that some game design choices were made to turn D3 into a "casual game".
You did mention "to seek mass appeal" and how they wanted to do a console port from day 1 of development. I don't believe in that either. Maybe I'm naive, yes; but I actually believe what they said, that the development of one wasn't holding the other back, and they only decided to give the console version a go after much consideration.
I'm with you in that it didn't feel like they did enough over the course of the 2 years to improve the game. I just didn't like when people complain that they didn't do anything at all.
I thought the purpose of the thread was just to make fun with the release date of RoS had no idea you saw it as such a deep criticism.
It's funny how some people deemed D1 and D2 as "hardcore" and "complex" games, when in reality, back there for most RPG fans (pen and paper D&D guys) the Diablo franchise was considered the biggest "dumbing" down in the history of RPGs, appealing to "mass audiences" by making it easy to deal with everything by just spamming attacks or a single skill (whereas RPGs had much more complex mechanics).
Whenever I see someone claiming D3 has been dumbed down and that consoles and mass audiences are to blame for it, I think of those same things which were said about its predecessors.
And this whole entitlement of feeling like the game has to be made for the specific needs and wishes of what, 1-5% of its playerbase, is extremely selfish and short sighted. That'sprobably the worst way of designing core features of a game nowadays.
Well, to be fair, all Diablo games have indeed been dumbed down more and more. That is not to claim that D1 was a complexity masterpiece, just that d2, LoD and then D3 have set the bar even lower and then even lowered it again. Not D3 as it came out, i still think the d3 versions before the big inferno nerfs were the best Diablo we have ever played. Not because of uber complexity, but because it was the first Diablo ever that was actually kinda challenging to play. Shame it only lasted so shortly.
I would love to have a game that is both, mass appealing and still complex enugh to be enjoyable by the 1%. But it is very clear from the busines decisions that Blizzard has taken over the last 5-10 years (in all their games, not just Diablo) that they want to get into the casual, free-to-play, mass appeal market and that they dont really care for the nerds any more.
Well, to be fair, all Diablo games have indeed been dumbed down more and more. That is not to claim that D1 was a complexity masterpiece, just that d2, LoD and then D3 have set the bar even lower and then even lowered it again. Not D3 as it came out, i still think the d3 versions before the big inferno nerfs were the best Diablo we have ever played. Not because of uber complexity, but because it was the first Diablo ever that was actually kinda challenging to play. Shame it only lasted so shortly.
What the hell?
1) Diablo 1 was the simplest game in the series ever. There was no "lowered bar" in D2/LoD/D3; D2 just took Diablo to a new level by introducing some complexity, but since 90% of affixes were useless and neglected changing it to the core essence of the game was just a logical step.
2) The challenging part of Inferno might have been nice, but what's not nice is to exclude people from 70% of content because "they have to grind act 1 Inferno for 3 months before being able to tackle act 2". It just doesn't work because the rewards come in so slow that people stop being interested. It's like having 10 hours in between each legendary drop; you need a balance between investment and rewards in a game.
I would love to have a game that is both, mass appealing and still complex enugh to be enjoyable by the 1%. But it is very clear from the busines decisions that Blizzard has taken over the last 5-10 years (in all their games, not just Diablo) that they want to get into the casual, free-to-play, mass appeal market and that they dont really care for the nerds any more.
Again, no idea what you're talking about. You might wanna look at StarCraft 2 and think about what you said, because it couldn't be any further away from the truth.
My post wasn't specifically aimed at you. Sorry if it sounded like that. It was aimed at some general feelings and comments that we usually see around. It's not uncommon to see people saying that, for instance, skill switching is dumbing down the game. Or that some game design choices were made to turn D3 into a "casual game".
You did mention "to seek mass appeal" and how they wanted to do a console port from day 1 of development. I don't believe in that either. Maybe I'm naive, yes; but I actually believe what they said, that the development of one wasn't holding the other back, and they only decided to give the console version a go after much consideration.
I'm with you in that it didn't feel like they did enough over the course of the 2 years to improve the game. I just didn't like when people complain that they didn't do anything at all.
I thought the purpose of the thread was just to make fun with the release date of RoS had no idea you saw it as such a deep criticism.
I understand your angst toward negativity at this point. Myself, I'm done bashing the game. I just wanted to explain my loss of patience, as was on display in the OP. The release date, all things considered, was set fairly and within reason. Good on Blizzard for coming through, if in fact they deliver the game in a satisfactory state.
Yes, I lost my patience. This game deserves more than it's gotten in it's first two years, and I'm leaving it at that.
It's time to move forward. D3 RoS has more complexity to offer than I expected. Really, I just wanted loot to be properly addressed. IT's been addressed, so my main complaint is void at this point. I didn't come back so I could berate Blizzard. I came back to celebrate what will hopefully be an awakening of this franchise. I'm hoping the near 2 dozen d2 friends I have on my F/L come back. I really do.
Yeah it's the same argument we had since d3 release. Challenge vs accessability etc etc. To be honest I dont even know why I brought it up again, there was no real answer in the last 2 years, I dont know what I expect now...
Have fun with the lil left mouse button killer game.
2) The challenging part of Inferno might have been nice, but what's not nice is to exclude people from 70% of content because "they have to grind act 1 Inferno for 3 months before being able to tackle act 2". It just doesn't work because the rewards come in so slow that people stop being interested. It's like having 10 hours in between each legendary drop; you need a balance between investment and rewards in a game.
To me, that was mostly a class balance issue. If those 70% had been 100%, things would have been fine (for me). Bosses in vanilla WoW used to last pretty long, too, and no one complained. The frustrating aspect was that picking the wrong class got you into this situation of farming a1 to buy blue a3 gear from the AH to have a chance in a2.
Aside from the necessity of higher than available (from monsters) gear, the general idea of slowly progressing through Inferno wasn't bad.
Have fun with the lil left mouse button killer game.
You obviously like Diablo 2 (I figured this from your post history) and you have said that you liked Diablo 3 before 1.03. Aren't they "lil left mouse button killer game"s? As far as I know, the whole ARPG genre is "lil left mouse button killers".
Yeah it's the same argument we had since d3 release. Challenge vs accessability etc etc.
How many times do I have to post the Brevik/Schaefer interview? I already did in this thread.
Accessibility has always been their goal (it was part of their pitch to Blizzard back in the early 90s) moreso than challenge. The D3 Inferno design, arguably, was the biggest departure from "Diablo tradition" that the game has seen because it very much went against accessibility. It was purposely *inaccessible* and that's why you saw the forums alight with "give us /players" and Blizzard eventually reworked it and gave us Monster Power.
Brevik and the Schaefer boys *wanted* to create a title where players weren't getting bogged down in the numbers; where they could just log in and smash shit. Why? Because that's what they enjoyed and they felt that there was a lot of room for an RPG that was more focused on combat and less focused on numbers and ... ummm ... "I unsheathe my sword and stabbeth thee. Mine holy attack penetrates your metal armor and turneth thee to dust!"
Erik, if you read that interview, actually is *pleased* that his mother could pick up Diablo 1 and play it. That's from one of the guys who created the first two games. Whether he likes D3 or not, I'd like to believe that he's pretty pleased that his mother can pick it up and play it without problems because that holds true to one of his original design goals.
For anyone to assert that Diablo has ever been about complexity is really obfuscating the history of the game and not remotely understanding the goals of the developers (past and present).
It's not that Diablo has always been about complexity, It's that role playing games in general have been about it.
over the past 30 or 40 years they have not grown less intricate they have grown more so. More detail more ideas more descisions, stories weapons armor magic classes monsters.....just more and more and more and more....more of alot of various and different things that can be summarized I would suppose as "content"
so while complexity does not automatically increase the quality of a game the more of it there is, reducing complexity or embracing simplicity does not increase the quality of a game either......and is especially true for electronic role playing games that can offload so much of the math computation to the games engine and the computers' hardware.
In many ways, the computer is to a roleplaying game as a key is to a lock.
Yeah it's the same argument we had since d3 release. Challenge vs accessability etc etc.
How many times do I have to post the Brevik/Schaefer interview? I already did in this thread.
Accessibility has always been their goal (it was part of their pitch to Blizzard back in the early 90s) moreso than challenge. The D3 Inferno design, arguably, was the biggest departure from "Diablo tradition" that the game has seen because it very much went against accessibility. It was purposely *inaccessible* and that's why you saw the forums alight with "give us /players" and Blizzard eventually reworked it and gave us Monster Power.
Brevik and the Schaefer boys *wanted* to create a title where players weren't getting bogged down in the numbers; where they could just log in and smash shit. Why? Because that's what they enjoyed and they felt that there was a lot of room for an RPG that was more focused on combat and less focused on numbers and ... ummm ... "I unsheathe my sword and stabbeth thee. Mine holy attack penetrates your metal armor and turneth thee to dust!"
Erik, if you read that interview, actually is *pleased* that his mother could pick up Diablo 1 and play it. That's from one of the guys who created the first two games. Whether he likes D3 or not, I'd like to believe that he's pretty pleased that his mother can pick it up and play it without problems because that holds true to one of his original design goals.
For anyone to assert that Diablo has ever been about complexity is really obfuscating the history of the game and not remotely understanding the goals of the developers (past and present).
One thing I'll say; I feel many people misinterpreted D3's user-friendly UI and skill system as being "dumbed down". I've taken some shots at this game, but I've never bought into the 'lack of complexity' bit.
Diablo 3, in terms of character builds etc, can be complicated if you wish it to be....or it can be very basic if need be. User-friendly doesn't necessarily equate to a lack of complexity.
Something interfered with the process here, regarding D3 now heading toward the end of it's second year. Somehow, a loot based game hit the market and went live on the web with loot that wasn't anywhere near ready, nor was the loot in this loot based game considered acceptable by anyone but the smallest of minorities among players.
This thread was meant to show how some people (me, I guess) had been proven "wrong" and, put on display as this threads topic, is supposed to be an exhibition of those whom lost faith in Blizzard (me again, I guess).
They lost my trust. Does anyone really blame me? Check my post history. Zero, you know. I kept my patience and defended this game for a long time. Where they lost my trust is in the fact that I feel they just didn't do enough to fix what they had presented as a finished product to the fans. Patch 1.04 was an acknowledgement by Blizzard that they had gone live with inferior loot in-game. It helped, but not near enough. Many items received only slightly boosted numbers with ranges WAY too far apart, sparkly particle effects and maybe a worthless summon/minion to distract and irritate all your friends.
I expected way more effort than that.... .. and that was over a year and a half ago. The only other thing they did was introduce a hastily thought out BoA crafting system that did add to the game, but this also served as subtraction by addition when the BoA crafts quickly rendered several slots as nearly useless drops. I sure haven't found a single pair of gloves that comes even remotely close to an average pair of BoA's I create and destroy without thought.
The "timing" of the console release versus much needed improvement to the PC game was the implication I meant by my comments regarding consoles and mass-appeal. ..How things got put on hold. Proper effort wasn't applied to salve the festering wound that is the D3 loot system.
They should've done more, considering all the verbiage we've heard from them since launch seems to confirm that they're aware the loot in D3 is sub-par at best.
But all this is in the past. I've made my peace. Just wanted to answer the thread. Yes, I lost trust in them. Blame me if you will. Just glad to see them fix it. After all, the ends justify the means and it looks like it will be worth the wait.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
You did mention "to seek mass appeal" and how they wanted to do a console port from day 1 of development. I don't believe in that either. Maybe I'm naive, yes; but I actually believe what they said, that the development of one wasn't holding the other back, and they only decided to give the console version a go after much consideration.
I'm with you in that it didn't feel like they did enough over the course of the 2 years to improve the game. I just didn't like when people complain that they didn't do anything at all.
I thought the purpose of the thread was just to make fun with the release date of RoS had no idea you saw it as such a deep criticism.
Well, to be fair, all Diablo games have indeed been dumbed down more and more. That is not to claim that D1 was a complexity masterpiece, just that d2, LoD and then D3 have set the bar even lower and then even lowered it again. Not D3 as it came out, i still think the d3 versions before the big inferno nerfs were the best Diablo we have ever played. Not because of uber complexity, but because it was the first Diablo ever that was actually kinda challenging to play. Shame it only lasted so shortly.
I would love to have a game that is both, mass appealing and still complex enugh to be enjoyable by the 1%. But it is very clear from the busines decisions that Blizzard has taken over the last 5-10 years (in all their games, not just Diablo) that they want to get into the casual, free-to-play, mass appeal market and that they dont really care for the nerds any more.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
1) Diablo 1 was the simplest game in the series ever. There was no "lowered bar" in D2/LoD/D3; D2 just took Diablo to a new level by introducing some complexity, but since 90% of affixes were useless and neglected changing it to the core essence of the game was just a logical step.
2) The challenging part of Inferno might have been nice, but what's not nice is to exclude people from 70% of content because "they have to grind act 1 Inferno for 3 months before being able to tackle act 2". It just doesn't work because the rewards come in so slow that people stop being interested. It's like having 10 hours in between each legendary drop; you need a balance between investment and rewards in a game.
Again, no idea what you're talking about. You might wanna look at StarCraft 2 and think about what you said, because it couldn't be any further away from the truth.
Yes, I lost my patience. This game deserves more than it's gotten in it's first two years, and I'm leaving it at that.
It's time to move forward. D3 RoS has more complexity to offer than I expected. Really, I just wanted loot to be properly addressed. IT's been addressed, so my main complaint is void at this point. I didn't come back so I could berate Blizzard. I came back to celebrate what will hopefully be an awakening of this franchise. I'm hoping the near 2 dozen d2 friends I have on my F/L come back. I really do.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Have fun with the lil left mouse button killer game.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
Aside from the necessity of higher than available (from monsters) gear, the general idea of slowly progressing through Inferno wasn't bad.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
Accessibility has always been their goal (it was part of their pitch to Blizzard back in the early 90s) moreso than challenge. The D3 Inferno design, arguably, was the biggest departure from "Diablo tradition" that the game has seen because it very much went against accessibility. It was purposely *inaccessible* and that's why you saw the forums alight with "give us /players" and Blizzard eventually reworked it and gave us Monster Power.
Brevik and the Schaefer boys *wanted* to create a title where players weren't getting bogged down in the numbers; where they could just log in and smash shit. Why? Because that's what they enjoyed and they felt that there was a lot of room for an RPG that was more focused on combat and less focused on numbers and ... ummm ... "I unsheathe my sword and stabbeth thee. Mine holy attack penetrates your metal armor and turneth thee to dust!"
Erik, if you read that interview, actually is *pleased* that his mother could pick up Diablo 1 and play it. That's from one of the guys who created the first two games. Whether he likes D3 or not, I'd like to believe that he's pretty pleased that his mother can pick it up and play it without problems because that holds true to one of his original design goals.
For anyone to assert that Diablo has ever been about complexity is really obfuscating the history of the game and not remotely understanding the goals of the developers (past and present).
over the past 30 or 40 years they have not grown less intricate they have grown more so. More detail more ideas more descisions, stories weapons armor magic classes monsters.....just more and more and more and more....more of alot of various and different things that can be summarized I would suppose as "content"
so while complexity does not automatically increase the quality of a game the more of it there is, reducing complexity or embracing simplicity does not increase the quality of a game either......and is especially true for electronic role playing games that can offload so much of the math computation to the games engine and the computers' hardware.
In many ways, the computer is to a roleplaying game as a key is to a lock.
Diablo 3, in terms of character builds etc, can be complicated if you wish it to be....or it can be very basic if need be. User-friendly doesn't necessarily equate to a lack of complexity.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan