So essentially you are saying that it's no big deal that people can't trade, because people won't NEED to trade to get good items? Blizzard seems to agree with you. Good luck convincing a lot of the folks around here.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to be hostile. I more or less agree with you. If the self-found playstyle is viable, then trading shouldn't be necessary.
My point is a that a lot of people want trading regardless of whether or not they need it. It's really not an issue of whether trading is necessary. It's about taking away an option and everyone knows that fewer options is inherently bad (sarcasm).
Its really not about the quality with trading, I think we all pretty much agree that will be improving. It's about getting that piece you're looking for. RNG will still screw some people out of the bow they want to try out a certain kind of build and eliminating trading may prevent them from finding it in a reasonable amount of time.
I apologize too. After reading your post it really wasn't too hostile.
I am not pro or anti trading either. When looking at the new loot system, I see a vastly improved system over live D3. I do want those who are in favor of trading to have some kind of system. And personally, I feel the best compromise comes from lifting the BoA restriction for clans. I'm not in favor of it stretching to friends lists because that it too small of a window for RMT of items. Clans are more personal and inviting random bots to clans sounds like a situation that is generally unfavorable to the privacy of the clan members.
If self-found is viable and let you progress smoothly to the higher difficulty, I won't QQ about trading not being there.
But if we still have to farm 100 hour to get a good upgrade (which doesn't seems the case on all the streamers) trade should be allowed.
But about your exemple, I agree with you that this would happen a lot ! Maybe less in lower difficulty where people would start getting their lvl 70 gear. But for higher difficulty, it would prolly happen a lot.
AND of course there will always be people QQing about trade, even if it isn't needed as miles said. But hey, if you don't like the game, don't play it ! Even if they listen a lot about the feedback for this xpack, if they feel it isn't needed, I don't see why they would add trade.
I also forgot to say, one of the big advantage is that gold / item farmer will be useless with BoA. This is the only way they had to get rid of them : remove the currency of the game.
Don't forget that getting upgrades won't be exclusive to monster drops anymore. Gambling with blood shards has been confirmed to provide legendaries too. Modz got a legendary from the gambling NPC during one of his streams.
Your sarcasm fails, because yes, trading won't be a necessity (and that's good), but it's something that I like to do from time to time with friends, and now I can't, which is bad.
But of course you're too busy being sarcastic to see that.
I also don't see the reason why somebody, who only plays selffound, still cares whether trading in RoS is possible or not since it's so obvious that if trading was still possible, it wouldn't be a necessity.
If you are the type of person who honestly enjoys trading and wants it to remain in the game because you will miss that feature (not the ability to get better items more easily, but the act of trading itself), then you are not the type of person I was talking about. I was referring to people who are against BoA and use "less options is bad" as their only argument, as though it goes against their religion or something. Sorry if I'm not able to properly express my thoughts on this issue.
As I've said in other threads, running on the assumption that BoA is Blizzard's solution to bots/3rd-party trading sites. Of course trading is a nice thing to have, and I'm not against trading in general. But if taking away trading helps with other problems in the game/community, then it's an option I'm willing to live without.
Understand? I'm not against you personally being able to trade with your friends. It doesn't effect me one way or the other. I acknowledge that.
I don't care too much about high-end trading being gone. What I hate is that you cannot even share items in a group of friends or in the same game. I realize it would probably be hard to find a way to allow this which is not abusable, but it just sucks if you and your friend are in the same game and you find a BoA item that would be absolutely amazing for him but has no use for you, maybe its even for a class you never plan on playing. There should be some way of giving this item to your friend.
Now you're wrong in that regard. Blizzard currently has a two hour time period after the item drops that anyone that was in the game when the item dropped can trade for that item.
My point is a that a lot of people want trading regardless of whether or not they need it. It's really not an issue of whether trading is necessary.
...then I was forced to disagree with you.
I don't need trading, not now, not in RoS, yet I want trading in the game.
I would have to agree with you maka. Needing to trade is a bad design. Wanting to trade if you would like to do so should still be there though. Since it's still early though, I just hope that some people take two steps back, breathe and realize that it's not to late for systems to be changed or for Blizzard to reach some sort of compromise with BoA and the pro-trading community.
Needing to trade is a bad design. Wanting to trade if you would like to do so should still be there though.
That's exactly how D2 worked... and it worked. This whole BoA notion has to be dreamed up by people who did not play D2 at all. It's unreal how selective memories can be.
That's exactly how D2 worked... and it worked. This whole BoA notion has to be dreamed up by people who did not play D2 at all. It's unreal how selective memories can be.
D2 existed in a very different environment, socially and technologically. It's naive to think that things shouldn't change to reflect that.
D2 existed in a very different environment, socially and technologically. It's naive to think that things shouldn't change to reflect that.
Precisely what "social" and "technological" changes have we seen that magically effect only D3 and not TL2 or PoE? Why is this issue ONLY a problem in Diablo? Why is it that every other developer seems to think the way Blizzard used to think? And why is it that their games aren't failing since the whole argument against trading is that it ruins the game?
Every example out there indicates that it's just a bunch of chicken little blabber.
Precisely what "social" and "technological" changes have we seen that magically effect only D3 and not TL2 or PoE? Why is this issue ONLY a problem in Diablo? Why is it that every other developer seems to think the way Blizzard used to think? And why is it that their games aren't failing since the whole argument against trading is that it ruins the game?
Every example out there indicates that it's just a bunch of chicken little blabber.
I can't speak for other developers or their games because I don't play them, keep up with their reviews or sales figures, or in general give a crap about them. If that excludes me from the argument, whatever. I'm just talking about what works for D3.
But just because something worked for D2, at that point in time, doesn't mean it should automatically work for D3 now. And just because other games are keeping trading in, doesn't mean Blizzard is obliged to, if they honestly think the BoA system will work better overall.
EDIT: Also, you talk about how great trading worked in D2, and yet all I can remember of those days is bots, spam, and hacks/dupes. Selective memory, as you say. I will gladly give up trading if it means we don't go back to that.
I seriously doubt the existence of trading had anything to do with the existence of hacks and dupes. Bots, maybe (although they are also used to advance one's own characters); spam, certainly. But not hacks and dupes.
Well, there's no point in duping a BoA item, since you can't give it to another player and you can't equip two of the same Legendary (as far as I know).
I don't care too much about high-end trading being gone. What I hate is that you cannot even share items in a group of friends or in the same game.
As far as I know, the current iteration is that you can share items with the other players who were in the game when the item dropped (for a period of 2 hours). I can appreciate that you want to be able to give items to friends even if they weren't in the game with you, but that ultimately goes against the BoA philosophy because it would allow you to help that player skip ahead on the item progression curve.
As others above have said, it's not that trading makes hacks/dupes easier or even possible (that's for the online/offline argument). But if take away trading, you've taken away one of the primary motivations for doing it, which is to get ahead faster and make more money (real or virtual).
EDIT:
Salvaging. You can dupe the mats themselves too probably, but duping in general still has it's place.
I seriously doubt the existence of trading had anything to do with the existence of hacks and dupes. Bots, maybe (although they are also used to advance one's own characters); spam, certainly. But not hacks and dupes.
Well, there's no point in duping a BoA item, since you can't give it to another player and you can't equip two of the same Legendary (as far as I know).
Salvaging. You can dupe the mats themselves too probably, but duping in general still has it's place.
I hadn't thought of that, but we were talking about D2, which didn't have the whole materials thing. There, the primary use for duping was to trade away items, which you can't do under a BoA system.
EDIT: Actually, runes would probably be a good equivalent of duping "materials" from D2. But I maintain, I think a large part of the incentive to dupe is linked to being able to trade away the duped items.
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But if there was no BoA how often do you think this is going to happen because of the new drop rates and Loot 2.0?
Person A:
Hey B, I was doing Rifts last night and found this sweet helm for your build. Here check it out!
Person B: Oh thanks A! But I just found a new Bow that totally changed my build. I don't really need it, but thanks anyways.
I think it would happen all the time...
Think about it though. If the average loot is higher quality, trading for better gear won't be as prevalent as it could've been.
My point is a that a lot of people want trading regardless of whether or not they need it. It's really not an issue of whether trading is necessary. It's about taking away an option and everyone knows that fewer options is inherently bad (sarcasm).
I am not pro or anti trading either. When looking at the new loot system, I see a vastly improved system over live D3. I do want those who are in favor of trading to have some kind of system. And personally, I feel the best compromise comes from lifting the BoA restriction for clans. I'm not in favor of it stretching to friends lists because that it too small of a window for RMT of items. Clans are more personal and inviting random bots to clans sounds like a situation that is generally unfavorable to the privacy of the clan members.
But if we still have to farm 100 hour to get a good upgrade (which doesn't seems the case on all the streamers) trade should be allowed.
But about your exemple, I agree with you that this would happen a lot ! Maybe less in lower difficulty where people would start getting their lvl 70 gear. But for higher difficulty, it would prolly happen a lot.
AND of course there will always be people QQing about trade, even if it isn't needed as miles said. But hey, if you don't like the game, don't play it ! Even if they listen a lot about the feedback for this xpack, if they feel it isn't needed, I don't see why they would add trade.
If you are the type of person who honestly enjoys trading and wants it to remain in the game because you will miss that feature (not the ability to get better items more easily, but the act of trading itself), then you are not the type of person I was talking about. I was referring to people who are against BoA and use "less options is bad" as their only argument, as though it goes against their religion or something. Sorry if I'm not able to properly express my thoughts on this issue.
As I've said in other threads, running on the assumption that BoA is Blizzard's solution to bots/3rd-party trading sites. Of course trading is a nice thing to have, and I'm not against trading in general. But if taking away trading helps with other problems in the game/community, then it's an option I'm willing to live without.
Understand? I'm not against you personally being able to trade with your friends. It doesn't effect me one way or the other. I acknowledge that.
Now you're wrong in that regard. Blizzard currently has a two hour time period after the item drops that anyone that was in the game when the item dropped can trade for that item.
I would have to agree with you maka. Needing to trade is a bad design. Wanting to trade if you would like to do so should still be there though. Since it's still early though, I just hope that some people take two steps back, breathe and realize that it's not to late for systems to be changed or for Blizzard to reach some sort of compromise with BoA and the pro-trading community.
That's exactly how D2 worked... and it worked. This whole BoA notion has to be dreamed up by people who did not play D2 at all. It's unreal how selective memories can be.
And that's a totally reasonable opinion. Idealistic, but reasonable.
D2 existed in a very different environment, socially and technologically. It's naive to think that things shouldn't change to reflect that.
Precisely what "social" and "technological" changes have we seen that magically effect only D3 and not TL2 or PoE? Why is this issue ONLY a problem in Diablo? Why is it that every other developer seems to think the way Blizzard used to think? And why is it that their games aren't failing since the whole argument against trading is that it ruins the game?
Every example out there indicates that it's just a bunch of chicken little blabber.
I can't speak for other developers or their games because I don't play them, keep up with their reviews or sales figures, or in general give a crap about them. If that excludes me from the argument, whatever. I'm just talking about what works for D3.
But just because something worked for D2, at that point in time, doesn't mean it should automatically work for D3 now. And just because other games are keeping trading in, doesn't mean Blizzard is obliged to, if they honestly think the BoA system will work better overall.
EDIT: Also, you talk about how great trading worked in D2, and yet all I can remember of those days is bots, spam, and hacks/dupes. Selective memory, as you say. I will gladly give up trading if it means we don't go back to that.
Well, there's no point in duping a BoA item, since you can't give it to another player and you can't equip two of the same Legendary (as far as I know).
As far as I know, the current iteration is that you can share items with the other players who were in the game when the item dropped (for a period of 2 hours). I can appreciate that you want to be able to give items to friends even if they weren't in the game with you, but that ultimately goes against the BoA philosophy because it would allow you to help that player skip ahead on the item progression curve.
EDIT:
Fair point.
I hadn't thought of that, but we were talking about D2, which didn't have the whole materials thing. There, the primary use for duping was to trade away items, which you can't do under a BoA system.
EDIT: Actually, runes would probably be a good equivalent of duping "materials" from D2. But I maintain, I think a large part of the incentive to dupe is linked to being able to trade away the duped items.