I have once or twice mentioned a hard reset. Like even though I put 300-400 hours into D3, I'd actually love to have a hard reset.
But quite frankly, if I was in charge and the decision was completely mine at Blizzard, I would never go for it. There's something about it which just doesn't "feel" right. Yeah, I know, that is a crappy argument for someone who's always so talkative, but it's simply how I feel about it.
The current model seems to strike a good middle ground.
It feels almost like a soft reset. People with good gear and gold and lots of Paragon levels will have a headstart once the game goes live, that's for sure. But by the time we all reach end-game (lvl 70), I'd argue we will all be at a very similar starting point.
That said, it would be interesting to see something like "in order to start participating in the D3/RoS Ladder, your gold must be reset". Talk about a gold sink, uh?
That mindset of comparing yourself to others doesn't even make sense, as gaming conditions and mindsets differ too greatly. For example, someone spends all their waking hours leveling in Diablo, or even makes money out if it/ makes it their job. How am I supposed to compete with that, while working 8 hours per day and having other stuff to do almost every day? Why would I even want to? That kind of thinking won't get you into a good place , you should just play at your own pace and do whatever you enjoy most in the game, not caring if Athene and similar people will be Plvl 800 within 2 weeks from release.
*sighs*
I'm not sitting around comparing myself to other people. I really wish people would stop saying that. Honestly, my argument as to why I don't want to play Ladders isn't trying to say "playing Ladders is a bad idea." It's not. In fact, pretty sure I just said 1) D3 would benefit greatly for it, and 2) I'm glad it's likely getting added. I'm saying...IF I were to play Ladders, I would HAVE TO compare myself to others. How would I not? The idea of a Ladder is that THERE'S A RANKING!! :-D Yes, Ladders might not be innately competitive (which is where this whole sub-discussion started), but there is still a numeric value placed on who's doing "best" and who's doing "worst." Number 1 vs. Number 1294 isn't a matter of personal perspective, it's numerical.
When I participate in things with a ranking system built right in, I like being at the top. I get...competitive! Imagine that. Though, the truth is, despite being competitive, I suck pretty badly at competition, which is why (back to start) I don't compete.
So again...I'm not busy sitting around thinking how inferior I am to other people. You're 100% right...having that kind of mindset is pretty friggin unhealthy. Agreed! I'm saying, for me personally, if I were to compete in a Ladder, that's how I would feel, and that's why it's not a way I personally would go. Hopefully that's clear now.
@CardinalMDM: if someone reads your posts in the "BoA Legendaries" thread, and then comes and reads your posts in here, they will be very confused (re: AH users 'polluting' your game experience).
OT: although I will not be participating in ladders (if they're even in the game), I voted 'Yes'. I think it'd be pretty fun to have a hard reset.
Maka, you've said that before, I'm still not entirely sure what it is you're getting at. In that thread, I defended Blizzard's decision to make BOA legendaries, and defended the trading limitations, likely brought on by the severe downsides of the AH. What did I say now, to make it look like other people are "polluting" my game experience?
The AH hasn't "polluted" my personal game experience. I've still enjoyed the game plenty playing self-found. Thing is, a big reason playing self-found is so satisfying is because of the difficulty, however much of that difficulty in D3 comes from 1) artificially and purposefully adjusted drop rates to push people to trade via the AH, and 2) an overabundance of RNG causing item quality to be severely below what it should be...also a result of Blizzard wanting to push people to use the AH. So trust me...other people haven't polluted my gameplay experience. As I said above, I'm not sitting around lamenting about how inferior I am compared to other people. OTHER PEOPLE say that in forums, and try to mask their jealousy, because it bothers THEM, and I'm getting a little tired of being lumped in with all those types. I'm not bitter, I'm not jealous. If anything the Auction House has polluted THE gameplay experience people could be having without it.
Does that mean all the trade limitations are going to please everyone? No. If they scale them back, will I be happy? Sure, I guess. My own personal experience won't be greatly effected either way, by trading or ladders.
On topic...as I also said before...Ladders are exactly a reason why a WIPE (maka, I believe you voted inaccurately, based on your comment) would be a completely unnecessary idea, as if people want to feel a "hard reset," playing in a Ladder will suffice perfectly. There's no way an account Paragon Level, Paragon Points, or even stacked up gold, would carry over into brand new characters created just for a ladder, as that would wildly throw off the curve. AND, a hard reset for EVERYONE, as Ruksak just said, would be entirely unfair to everyone 1) who doesn't care about playing Ladders, a system BUILT to scratch that itch, and 2) who worked hard since launch to build strong characters and stashes of items.
Since this came up during the 1.0.8 gold dupe...and is now again...
The only way I see Blizzard going through with pushing a full worldwide account wipe for all players (i.e., a hard reset) is if something happened to DIRECTLY effect everyone's gameplay so drastically, it couldn't be argued or debated in a forum like this. Forums like this are used for debate and discussion, and while no one likes to have their arguments misinterpreted, there's enough gray area here that there's going to be differing opinions.
I'm saying, like...a virus hits the servers and EVERYONE has infinite gold overnight. Or some kind of stupid bug that causes everyone's gear to magically have maxed out stats or something.
Literally, the only way I see them doing a full wipe or a hard reset on every player is if literally every single Diablo 3 player on the planet were effected, and there was absolutely no way to easily patch in a fix to quickly rectify things back to the way they were.
I voted yes, because that's what I personally want. It would be enough by way of a ladder though, don't want to take other peoples' hard earned progress away. IF they can't take it into said ladder.
The money balancing issue is an important one in this case, Bagstone already explained most of it, I just want to mention it again so that it doesn't get overlooked. I have seen an enchanting price tag of 180k on the dfans stream yesterday and that was for a lvl60 item on the first try. Subsequent tries are more expensive and that's a non-negligible cost imo. Billionaires might laugh at that, but people with "reasonable" amounts of cash might run into the same issue they're having now with way more Demonic Essences than they could ever use in crafting. And that is a very, very, very bad scenario imo.
Fair point. Maybe I was too much driven by the 5m unsocket cost for marquise gems (which does not require any other materials).
I keep reading about this unsocketing cost. Why would you even want to unsocket those gems for 5m each ?
They start dropping normally ingame from around lvl 63-64 onwards. So you dont need to unsocket for the gems. Also the items you find around that level will be better than your lvl 60 gear, so you dont need to unsocket to free up sockets either.
Also, since you wont need the items any more unless to put them in your stash for nostalgia, you could just disenchant the items and get the gems out automatically.
Telling 12 million players that D3 so far has been a "beta test" and they just wasted time playing the game and forcing a hard reset is an idea that would only come up on an internet forum.
Seeing how drastically they change key features of the game and rebalance the game generally towards self found experience, I got to say that I get a feeling of being in a huge beta test. Also how they are nerfing all the good builds that the community came up with over the last year.
HELL no, no wipes, I've spent the last few weeks and WILL spend the time till release grinding paragon levels, as have many of my friends.
The people who have billions of gold, paragon levels, +XP gear etc stockpiled WORKED, farmed and ground (grinded?) to get that stuff, why should they then be penalised with having it wiped out because some other people didn't put in the effort?
This isn't an MMO, there's NO reason for everyone to start off on an equal playing field, if people had the time and were willing to put in the effort to stockpile supplies and grind up paragon XP, let them enjoy the fruits of their labor.
While I agree that some players obviously have an advantage over others, I still wouldn't want to wipe everything.
For my own sake.
I don't have a paragon 100 char, not even if I combine my paragon levels on all chars. I don't have awesome gear, or billions of gold.
But still, i'd rather not have to start all over again, just because there are people who do have all that - while I don't.
Because after a while, you will be back at square 1 anyway. And nothing really changed.
And this is why there should be an option for non-ladder and ladder leagues so that people can pick and choose how they want to play the game and which economies do they want to participate in. This isn't a new discussion.
Everything becomes irrelevant in the expansion so everything is technically "wiped". The closest thing that has any value is gems. People who have billions of gold don’t give any sort of advantage anymore unless upgrading the new tier of gems cost 50Mil plus then there might be some actual value with gold.
If people want to dump 1000 hours more than me to start at Plvl 375 compared to my Plvl 80 all the power to them. I voted a big fat NO. If you want to epeen your lack of no life that's what ladder is for.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
OT: although I will not be participating in ladders (if they're even in the game), I voted 'Yes'. I think it'd be pretty fun to have a hard reset.
Unless I'm mistaken, voting YES means you're okay with a complete wipe of your account. A hard reset via a Ladder system is not the same thing. The OP here is saying that people could go and buy up trillions before the AH shutdown, and start farther ahead. He doesn't think that's fair, and so thinks that everyone should be wiped.
I'm saying, wiping the community's progress, XP, levels, gear, etc., because a handful of people are going to panic because they lose their progression crutch? Thoroughly overkill.
Of course, you're a smartass, maka, in a very good way, so...chances are I'm wrong and you fully believe that all that gold-amassing behavior is 100% totally perfect justification for a wipe, ;-)
Wiping doesn't make a lot of sense. If Ladder ends up being a thing in RoS, that route will be there for those that like to play clean slate characters if they so choose (I'll likely be taking that option if it's available).
The idea of an "advantage" in a non-competitive, small group game is eh. I've been playing D3 pretty sparingly since the AH and RoS announcements since the game is going to be basically a whole new experience once release hits (or even 2.0.1).
@Maka: I'm glad I'm not the only one that has noticed the irony here this morning. Glad you could put it in more polite terms, I was having a hard time coming up with a way to point it out gently.
Regarding an advantage: Every player has the ability to go out and gain the same advantage right now (grind paragon levels, stash gems, hoard or buy gold). To say that someone is starting with an advantage implies that others do not have the ability to gain the same (based on in game restrictions, not time restrictions or monetary restrictions). If you want the advantage, go out there and take it, but don't attempt to affect others based on your dislike that they are putting themselves in the best position they can when you have the same opportunity but are refusing to take it.
OT: While a wipe would be fun (for the lulz of complaints on the forums as well as a fresh economy, my personal favorite part of D2 ladders), I prefer to let things stay as they are and allow the ladders to provide the option to choose a fresh start. Options, choice, and the ability to pursue a preferred play-style for all! cheesyhandsraisedinfrontofacheeringcrowd.jpg
Wipe my characters? Or the gear I tried very hard to get? Hell no.
The gear will be useless anyways, so prepare to say goodbye to it.
I think what the TS meant by unfair advantage was account paragon being an advantage. The attribute points you earn for those levels seem highly valuable. Your character's gear is useful for maybe the first week of ROS if that. It looks like people are rerolling their stats on their trifectas so that they wont be obsolete.
I'm more shocked that there are people who think this is a good idea. BoA is a terrible idea and, even so, a full wipe is probably 100x worse. Who are you people who are so obsessed with everything being on even ground that you're so eager to throw away the 2-ish year investment that some of us have in this game?
I have an idea. How about you opt to wipe your characters and leave mine alone?
I'm not that attached to my gear, my gold, my gems, my mats or my characters. I think the fun bit of this game is 'getting there'; once you're 'there', the fun decreases by a factor 10 (warning: arbitrary number). That's why I think it would be "pretty fun" to have a full wipe, but I'm not making it a "thing".
This is my philosophy as well. I'm always at a little bit of a loss when I hear people complain about D3 having no end-game, because the leveling up is the fun part. Even on console, where you can actually find good legendaries, it loses its charm once you have 3 or 4 and finding upgrades is a pain in the ass again. I think the new paragon system will help out a bit, but for the most part I always prefer starting from scratch and making my way up, which is why I always end up playing HC sooner or later.
I picked "no" on the vote just because I don't see any reason to impose it on anyone else, but I'm probably going to start all new characters for the expansion once I've played trough Act V once or twice.
I'm more shocked that there are people who think this is a good idea. BoA is a terrible idea and, even so, a full wipe is probably 100x worse. Who are you people who are so obsessed with everything being on even ground that you're so eager to throw away the 2-ish year investment that some of us have in this game?
I have an idea. How about you opt to wipe your characters and leave mine alone?
Didn't say this is a perfect idea but it should get to Blizz's attention that a lot of people want such a scenario in which everyone starts fresh again. The best way would be the classic ladder way.
I don't want to take away your stuff and I'd like to keep mine too, but I'd rather sacrifice everything than just continue from different starting points, or -well- continuation points in that case. And since no middle ground was offered, I had to vote yes.
I'm more shocked that there are people who think this is a good idea. BoA is a terrible idea and, even so, a full wipe is probably 100x worse. Who are you people who are so obsessed with everything being on even ground that you're so eager to throw away the 2-ish year investment that some of us have in this game?
I have an idea. How about you opt to wipe your characters and leave mine alone?
For real.
We all have our opinions...much as I think some handful of people could find ways to exploit and abuse trading in some way (certainly not a large amount), and as much as I support legednaries being BOA...
Screw it...lift BOA and gimme free trade, I don't care that much, just don't wipe my characters. I worked hard on them. I like where they're at, and I like even more where they're going to go.
I picked "no" on the vote just because I don't see any reason to impose it on anyone else, but I'm probably going to start all new characters for the expansion once I've played trough Act V once or twice.
Which is extremely admirable. I'm looking forward to starting up a Crusader for just that reason, so I can experience leveling in a game from the ground up.
And Loot 2.0 legendaries in hardcore should be fuuuuuuuuun, ;-)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
But quite frankly, if I was in charge and the decision was completely mine at Blizzard, I would never go for it. There's something about it which just doesn't "feel" right. Yeah, I know, that is a crappy argument for someone who's always so talkative, but it's simply how I feel about it.
The current model seems to strike a good middle ground.
It feels almost like a soft reset. People with good gear and gold and lots of Paragon levels will have a headstart once the game goes live, that's for sure. But by the time we all reach end-game (lvl 70), I'd argue we will all be at a very similar starting point.
That said, it would be interesting to see something like "in order to start participating in the D3/RoS Ladder, your gold must be reset". Talk about a gold sink, uh?
*sighs*
I'm not sitting around comparing myself to other people. I really wish people would stop saying that. Honestly, my argument as to why I don't want to play Ladders isn't trying to say "playing Ladders is a bad idea." It's not. In fact, pretty sure I just said 1) D3 would benefit greatly for it, and 2) I'm glad it's likely getting added. I'm saying...IF I were to play Ladders, I would HAVE TO compare myself to others. How would I not? The idea of a Ladder is that THERE'S A RANKING!! :-D Yes, Ladders might not be innately competitive (which is where this whole sub-discussion started), but there is still a numeric value placed on who's doing "best" and who's doing "worst." Number 1 vs. Number 1294 isn't a matter of personal perspective, it's numerical.
When I participate in things with a ranking system built right in, I like being at the top. I get...competitive! Imagine that. Though, the truth is, despite being competitive, I suck pretty badly at competition, which is why (back to start) I don't compete.
So again...I'm not busy sitting around thinking how inferior I am to other people. You're 100% right...having that kind of mindset is pretty friggin unhealthy. Agreed! I'm saying, for me personally, if I were to compete in a Ladder, that's how I would feel, and that's why it's not a way I personally would go. Hopefully that's clear now.
Maka, you've said that before, I'm still not entirely sure what it is you're getting at. In that thread, I defended Blizzard's decision to make BOA legendaries, and defended the trading limitations, likely brought on by the severe downsides of the AH. What did I say now, to make it look like other people are "polluting" my game experience?
The AH hasn't "polluted" my personal game experience. I've still enjoyed the game plenty playing self-found. Thing is, a big reason playing self-found is so satisfying is because of the difficulty, however much of that difficulty in D3 comes from 1) artificially and purposefully adjusted drop rates to push people to trade via the AH, and 2) an overabundance of RNG causing item quality to be severely below what it should be...also a result of Blizzard wanting to push people to use the AH. So trust me...other people haven't polluted my gameplay experience. As I said above, I'm not sitting around lamenting about how inferior I am compared to other people. OTHER PEOPLE say that in forums, and try to mask their jealousy, because it bothers THEM, and I'm getting a little tired of being lumped in with all those types. I'm not bitter, I'm not jealous. If anything the Auction House has polluted THE gameplay experience people could be having without it.
Does that mean all the trade limitations are going to please everyone? No. If they scale them back, will I be happy? Sure, I guess. My own personal experience won't be greatly effected either way, by trading or ladders.
On topic...as I also said before...Ladders are exactly a reason why a WIPE (maka, I believe you voted inaccurately, based on your comment) would be a completely unnecessary idea, as if people want to feel a "hard reset," playing in a Ladder will suffice perfectly. There's no way an account Paragon Level, Paragon Points, or even stacked up gold, would carry over into brand new characters created just for a ladder, as that would wildly throw off the curve. AND, a hard reset for EVERYONE, as Ruksak just said, would be entirely unfair to everyone 1) who doesn't care about playing Ladders, a system BUILT to scratch that itch, and 2) who worked hard since launch to build strong characters and stashes of items.
The only way I see Blizzard going through with pushing a full worldwide account wipe for all players (i.e., a hard reset) is if something happened to DIRECTLY effect everyone's gameplay so drastically, it couldn't be argued or debated in a forum like this. Forums like this are used for debate and discussion, and while no one likes to have their arguments misinterpreted, there's enough gray area here that there's going to be differing opinions.
I'm saying, like...a virus hits the servers and EVERYONE has infinite gold overnight. Or some kind of stupid bug that causes everyone's gear to magically have maxed out stats or something.
Literally, the only way I see them doing a full wipe or a hard reset on every player is if literally every single Diablo 3 player on the planet were effected, and there was absolutely no way to easily patch in a fix to quickly rectify things back to the way they were.
So in other words...don't count on it.
The money balancing issue is an important one in this case, Bagstone already explained most of it, I just want to mention it again so that it doesn't get overlooked. I have seen an enchanting price tag of 180k on the dfans stream yesterday and that was for a lvl60 item on the first try. Subsequent tries are more expensive and that's a non-negligible cost imo. Billionaires might laugh at that, but people with "reasonable" amounts of cash might run into the same issue they're having now with way more Demonic Essences than they could ever use in crafting. And that is a very, very, very bad scenario imo.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
I keep reading about this unsocketing cost. Why would you even want to unsocket those gems for 5m each ?
They start dropping normally ingame from around lvl 63-64 onwards. So you dont need to unsocket for the gems. Also the items you find around that level will be better than your lvl 60 gear, so you dont need to unsocket to free up sockets either.
Also, since you wont need the items any more unless to put them in your stash for nostalgia, you could just disenchant the items and get the gems out automatically.
Seeing how drastically they change key features of the game and rebalance the game generally towards self found experience, I got to say that I get a feeling of being in a huge beta test. Also how they are nerfing all the good builds that the community came up with over the last year.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
The people who have billions of gold, paragon levels, +XP gear etc stockpiled WORKED, farmed and ground (grinded?) to get that stuff, why should they then be penalised with having it wiped out because some other people didn't put in the effort?
This isn't an MMO, there's NO reason for everyone to start off on an equal playing field, if people had the time and were willing to put in the effort to stockpile supplies and grind up paragon XP, let them enjoy the fruits of their labor.
For my own sake.
I don't have a paragon 100 char, not even if I combine my paragon levels on all chars. I don't have awesome gear, or billions of gold.
But still, i'd rather not have to start all over again, just because there are people who do have all that - while I don't.
Because after a while, you will be back at square 1 anyway. And nothing really changed.
If people want to dump 1000 hours more than me to start at Plvl 375 compared to my Plvl 80 all the power to them. I voted a big fat NO. If you want to epeen your lack of no life that's what ladder is for.
Unless I'm mistaken, voting YES means you're okay with a complete wipe of your account. A hard reset via a Ladder system is not the same thing. The OP here is saying that people could go and buy up trillions before the AH shutdown, and start farther ahead. He doesn't think that's fair, and so thinks that everyone should be wiped.
I'm saying, wiping the community's progress, XP, levels, gear, etc., because a handful of people are going to panic because they lose their progression crutch? Thoroughly overkill.
Of course, you're a smartass, maka, in a very good way, so...chances are I'm wrong and you fully believe that all that gold-amassing behavior is 100% totally perfect justification for a wipe, ;-)
The idea of an "advantage" in a non-competitive, small group game is eh. I've been playing D3 pretty sparingly since the AH and RoS announcements since the game is going to be basically a whole new experience once release hits (or even 2.0.1).
The gear will be useless anyways, so prepare to say goodbye to it.
Regarding an advantage: Every player has the ability to go out and gain the same advantage right now (grind paragon levels, stash gems, hoard or buy gold). To say that someone is starting with an advantage implies that others do not have the ability to gain the same (based on in game restrictions, not time restrictions or monetary restrictions). If you want the advantage, go out there and take it, but don't attempt to affect others based on your dislike that they are putting themselves in the best position they can when you have the same opportunity but are refusing to take it.
OT: While a wipe would be fun (for the lulz of complaints on the forums as well as a fresh economy, my personal favorite part of D2 ladders), I prefer to let things stay as they are and allow the ladders to provide the option to choose a fresh start. Options, choice, and the ability to pursue a preferred play-style for all! cheesyhandsraisedinfrontofacheeringcrowd.jpg
Wow. Tsk tsk OP. Tsk tsk.
I think what the TS meant by unfair advantage was account paragon being an advantage. The attribute points you earn for those levels seem highly valuable. Your character's gear is useful for maybe the first week of ROS if that. It looks like people are rerolling their stats on their trifectas so that they wont be obsolete.
I have an idea. How about you opt to wipe your characters and leave mine alone?
This is my philosophy as well. I'm always at a little bit of a loss when I hear people complain about D3 having no end-game, because the leveling up is the fun part. Even on console, where you can actually find good legendaries, it loses its charm once you have 3 or 4 and finding upgrades is a pain in the ass again. I think the new paragon system will help out a bit, but for the most part I always prefer starting from scratch and making my way up, which is why I always end up playing HC sooner or later.
I picked "no" on the vote just because I don't see any reason to impose it on anyone else, but I'm probably going to start all new characters for the expansion once I've played trough Act V once or twice.
Didn't say this is a perfect idea but it should get to Blizz's attention that a lot of people want such a scenario in which everyone starts fresh again. The best way would be the classic ladder way.
I don't want to take away your stuff and I'd like to keep mine too, but I'd rather sacrifice everything than just continue from different starting points, or -well- continuation points in that case. And since no middle ground was offered, I had to vote yes.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
For real.
We all have our opinions...much as I think some handful of people could find ways to exploit and abuse trading in some way (certainly not a large amount), and as much as I support legednaries being BOA...
Screw it...lift BOA and gimme free trade, I don't care that much, just don't wipe my characters. I worked hard on them. I like where they're at, and I like even more where they're going to go.
Which is extremely admirable. I'm looking forward to starting up a Crusader for just that reason, so I can experience leveling in a game from the ground up.
And Loot 2.0 legendaries in hardcore should be fuuuuuuuuun, ;-)