Diablo has many flaws and the best way to get the loot hunt back in diablo is with BoA legendaries and sets.
That is just sooo wrong.
The best way for them to "get the loot hunt back" would be to actually fix the fucking loot, no?
For all their talk about what would make the game fun, the one damn thing they could've done (fix the loot drops), they haven't done. They haven't even tried since 8 weeks after launch. That was over a year and a half ago.
Diablo has many flaws and the best way to get the loot hunt back in diablo is with BoA legendaries and sets.
That is just sooo wrong.
The best way for them to "get the loot hunt back" would be to actually fix the fucking loot, no?
For all their talk about what would make the game fun, the one damn thing they could've done (fix the loot drops), they haven't done. They haven't even tried since 8 weeks after launch. That was over a year and a half ago.
Could you please be reasonable? All these demands to just "fix loot" are not thought through. It's like asking them to finally cure Aids, after all those complaints about it..
You can't just do that. No matter how good and fancy items are on an individual basis and no matter how frequently they drop, 5 million other players will find anything before YOU do. And then you can get those items off them for virtually nothing (because they all compete with each other) long before you could ever hope to find them "legitimately".
You may personally not care ("self-discipline" and yadda yadda), but for example, I do. I don't climb a rope when there's a lift that everyone else uses. Feels just stupid. I'm all for the challenge but not in such cases.
Clearly you're worried that some people will take advantage of trading and be OP within weeks.
I don't care if people are OP, and I'm not worried about anything. Actually, I thought with the removal of the AH there is no reason for any BoA items at all. I did not see this coming and I didn't welcome it (at first). Only trying to make peace with it ;-)
Let's take you as an example. You're a self-confessed "user of the AH that wishes he could NOT use it". When it's gone, and if trading is still available, will you go to d2jsp? Will you spam in trade chats all day? Or will you just play the game and occasionally trade with your friends or with some people from DFans?
I asked myself that question a lot, actually. Initially, my response was "no, I will not go to D2JSP". But then I thought: what if there was a wand that would enable Blizzard to stack? Because seriously, non-stacking Blizzard is the most annoying thing for me in the game right now. If I knew this item exist, there are guides out there to turn your wizard into a D2 Blizzard sorc, and I can't find that item, I might be tempted (after a few weeks) to go to D2JSP.
But this is not about me or you, it's about the majority of the community. And Blizzard believes that the majority of the community will not just try the builds that work with their self-found items, but is worried that over the many many communication channels (official forums, fan sites like DFans, Reddit, Twitch, and the infamous Youtube "celebrities") certain builds will earn popularity. But in order for these builds to work you might need some specific legendaries - and we're back to focusing on trading for specific items rather than playing the game.
You can't just do that. No matter how good and fancy items are on an individual basis and no matter how frequently they drop, 5 million other players will find anything before YOU do. And then you can get those items off them for virtually nothing (because they all compete with each other) long before you could ever hope to find them "legitimately".
I see, you haven't traded in Diablo 2 then, I guess? Try to get a highrune for "virtually nothing" when you just start playing in a new ladder season. Have fun. In most cases I find a highrune first myself and trade it for a different one.
Well, if I remember correctly, the last time I traded with a stranger was in 1.08, back when Vampire Gaze had fixed stats. After abandoning D2 for DAoC, I only ever returned to play self-found from time to time.
However that's not the point, neither is the "virtually nothing" in its literal meaning. I put that in "" for a reason
The point is, trading for something that 5 million people already have and are willing to sell, takes much less "effort" than getting said item through playing the game. THIS is the prime dilemma of D3 as of now and that's what they're trying to tackle with this move.
Diablo has many flaws and the best way to get the loot hunt back in diablo is with BoA legendaries and sets.
That is just sooo wrong.
The best way for them to "get the loot hunt back" would be to actually fix the fucking loot, no?
For all their talk about what would make the game fun, the one damn thing they could've done (fix the loot drops), they haven't done. They haven't even tried since 8 weeks after launch. That was over a year and a half ago.
Could you please be reasonable? All these demands to just "fix loot" are not thought through. It's like asking them to finally cure Aids, after all those complaints about it..
You can't just do that. No matter how good and fancy items are on an individual basis and no matter how frequently they drop, 5 million other players will find anything before YOU do. And then you can get those items off them for virtually nothing (because they all compete with each other) long before you could ever hope to find them "legitimately".
You may personally not care ("self-discipline" and yadda yadda), but for example, I do. I don't climb a rope when there's a lift that everyone else uses. Feels just stupid. I'm all for the challenge but not in such cases.
Depends on what you mean by that. If you only want more/better drops for yourself while playing the game, that's fine. But you can't have that plus an economy, in which it is easier to aquire items via playing than via trading, which is, what most people mean by "fix loot".
No matter how good and fancy items are on an individual basis and no matter how frequently they drop, 5 million other players will find anything before YOU do. And then you can get those items off them for virtually nothing (because they all compete with each other) long before you could ever hope to find them "legitimately".
Where you're wrong is when you assume that all those people will be competing within the same 'economic arena' - like they did in the AH. What, so you think EVERYONE will use the same 3rd party site? You think EVERYONE will spam trade chats? You're crazy if you think that's the case. With the AH gone, the truth of the matter is most people probably won't be bothered to exit the game just to buy an item, and they definitely won't spam trade chat (or read said spam). The AH had millions of users because it was there, in-game, it was safe, and it was hassle free: enter affixes, buy item, send to stash, done. With all those conveniences gone, the amount of people that participate in any kind of 'global' economy would be a tiny fraction of the amount that participated in the AH.
Well, these days any bad Mempo may be at 10k gold in the AH. When do you have that amount of gold? After normal act2? Sure that price would go up after a removal of the AH. But I'd give you any bet, that it'd still be easier to aquire a Mempo by way of trading than to actually find it. In D2, uniques were also sold in bulk for gems and such.
Would you still take the elevator, knowing that, on one hand, you're NOT doing something you love (climbing), and, on the other hand, knowing you'll have a terrible experience with the elevator?
I see, what you mean, but this view is too drastic imo. It's not that the challenge of climbing the rope is so amazing, it's the challenge-reward relation. If you can get said reward (getting to the top) without a challenge, in a convenient way, there's no point taking the challenge. Though it's ok, if you think so. I'm not telling you, who is right or wrong
I am sure finding the 10th monk claw on your hunter while you are waiting for a month for your game-changing hunter legendary will be loads of fun.
IMO they should just have adjusted the drop rates and left the AH and trading as it was. Yes, that would ruin the economy for traders, but at least they could still trade while non-traders would also have their game experience improved. The way it is going now, only the very hardcore selffound non traders will be happy, the rest gets a kick in the ass.
wait a second. Are items soul bound on drop or ID?
On drop. There's no "bind on ID" in D3 (yet). They would've mentioned that...
You would think it wouldn't bind till it was ID'ed
I don't think this makes sense. Keep in mind that with loot 2.0 we have smart drops (much higher probability to roll stats that benefit your class) as well as more reasonable affix ranges (e.g., not 1-80 for allresist but something like 75-100). If a Serpent's Sparker drops, you know that this is the item that allows you to run a Hydra build. Identification just reveals if it has good or very good stats, but it's not like a Mempo that is either BiS item or utter crap.
Really don't think that unid items are free to trade, wouldn't make much sense imho.
Also, the comparison with the AH isn't really fair. The reason a lot of people just couldn't resist the AH (even though they wish they could) was because it was right there, in-game, and very easy to use.
Let's take you as an example. You're a self-confessed "user of the AH that wishes he could NOT use it". When it's gone, and if trading is still available, will you go to d2jsp? Will you spam in trade chats all day? Or will you just play the game and occasionally trade with your friends or with some people from DFans?
Also, the AH is currently the only reliable way to get items because droprates are so poor. That's a very different situation from having 2 different, but viable playstyles, especially when you take away the convenience factor.
I don't agree with Maka 100% on this issue, but I also think it's a very subjective gray area. Is it the dev's responsibility to ensure fair play, with an even playing field for everyone? Is it their responsibility to take away options that could, potentially, ruin someone's fun in some cases? That's very, VERY debatable.
The "use self-control" line of thought is tired. What boundaries Blizzard chooses to enforce in the scope of the multiplayer experience matters to many. It may not matter to certain individuals but it matters to a lot of people in the community what stance Blizzard takes. It matters to many what experience they are going to have in relation to their friends and in relation to the entire community. You can self-impose your own standards, and even if you have the self-control to enforce them on yourself, it can have a psychological toll on your experience if you know all your friends and the community at large are playing a completely different game on a completely different level. For many people that subconscious nagging ruins the experience. It may not be that way for some, but it is that way for many.
If you take this line of thought further you could just remove all boundaries. Blizzard could just put a FAQ up at the beginning saying that it is a sandbox game and you can impose whatever limits you want to optimize your fun. Add an NPC that creates infinite gold, create an NPC that dupes items for you, increase legendary drop rate to whatever you want it to be. I mean what you choose to do doesn't effect anyone else right? It's all about your fun. If those NPCs ruin your fun show some self-control man!
But there in lies the problem. What many consider fun is based upon what is happening in the game at large within the community. To dismiss that just because your personal fun isn't being infringed upon is just as selfish in a sense.
You can keep pushing this "if trading is not fun, then don't trade" rhetoric all day long, but if I am not trading and my friend I play alongside is and he is killing monsters three times faster then me, that affects me. My personal fun has been compromised because I can't ignore that. Him killing faster effects my experience gain and my drops since monsters die quicker to the actions he is partaking in outside my gameplay. The boundaries imposed upon him being inequitable to mine outside of our game together has infringed upon my ability to share a common experience with him in the context of the game at large. For many, that is the fun of the game, the ability to share a common experience with the community imposed by the boundaries of the game itself on everyone mutually.
Many people care about the structure of the game as it is defined and enforced by Blizzard and want to play a game where everyone in the community is held to the same standard of play. For them, therein lies their personal fun. It enforces a sense of camaraderie that we are all playing the same game with the same limitations. What those limitations are defined at matters immensely.
I am not using this argument to make a case for whether trading should or shouldn't be allowed. If you want to be able to trade and want to make a case for that in the context of the game, fine. I am all for that. But, please, talk about it in the context of finding loot and feeling a sense of reward in doing so. How do these choices affect everyone and their ability to share a common experience? But don't use that "self-control" argument as if it had any relevance. Boundaries set by Blizzard matters. What people around you are doing in a multiplayer environment matters. It may not matter to you, but if it matters to even just a minority it is still relevant and not dismissible.
A lot of people want a ladder for instance.
In that game mode it is all about getting to the top in the most efficient manner. However if getting to the top is going to be cheapened by trading then it will ruin the competetion. People who grind by themselves will lose out to the large clans/streamers etc who just give 1 guy all the best items.
They will be taking the lift when most will be taking the stairs. Creating a BoA model would make sure to reduce the edge (from trading networks/ community created AH) that some would have in that competitive format.
A real life example you find a gold nugget on a walk (your in oz), hot damn what's it worth must be worth a few bob. Now you got some thril right there but are you gona keep it? Hell no got me some nice wheels drive about in. Did changing the gold or the car make you less happy? No it made you more happy cos now u have what you wanted.
Maybe so, but a game isn't "real life", nor should it try to be.
A game should give you a fun experience within its rules and limitations. If more limitations can increase the fun, then I'll gladly take them.
Maybe so, but a game isn't "real life", nor should it try to be.
A game should give you a fun experience within its rules and limitations. If more limitations can increase the fun, then I'll gladly take them.
So, how in the world is being unable to trade items with your friends, people you've known for YEARS, just because they weren't online... or in your game at the tme... an INCREASE in fun?
How do some of you people manage to keep twisting it back to "It's more fun to find your own items?"
No one is arguing that it's not MORE FUN to do that. But it's also LESS FUN to go months, and months, and months without the drop you're really looking for and have no way at all to rectify that. It's a fine line and "only with the 3 other people for 2 hours after it drops" is setting up far too many LESS FUN scenarios in my mind. Sure, those orange lightshafts might be 1% more fun for me, but you've now forced me to sacrifice a bunch of other shit that I find fun.
So, yes, I might get more enjoyment out of the drops, but I'm getting less overall enjoyment from the game. Great! So while you're making a technically-correct statement, you're making that statement in a vacuum without considering the OTHER effects that a change like this will have that will make the game LESS FUN overall for many people.
Which begs the question... what is "winning" in Diablo?
No disrespect meant. And I actually am beginning to like the direction they're taking, and never spent a single dime on the RMAH, so I kinda agree with you.
But I don't understand the P2W concept in a game like this. Does it surface when people compare their characters? Do we even have "some" competition, even without ladders? Because we can compare profiles and character power? And guys like Archon, Alkaizer and Jaetch are "winners", and everyone else is a "loser"?
But I keep reading the statement: "if I find something cool I can't trade it to my friends!" But from a development standpoint - wouldn't they assume that you are playing the game...with your friends. So therefore - you can trade with your friends.
Yes there are circumstances where you can't be online at the same time, all the time with your friends. So it would be nice to be able to hold onto that new hawt item and trade/give to a friend later on down the road. But what if you couldn't? So when you solo play you will look more for yourself and if you find an item that doesn't benefit you, you are more inspired to salvage it and potentially use it to help YOUR character.
Then when you are farming with your friends you can trade items that you find - because you've already played a bit on your own and took care of your character along the way.
Look - I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this change to trading. But if you can move past how they told us about it and actually consider the idea; does it have merit for you?
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Wise ElderThat is just sooo wrong.
The best way for them to "get the loot hunt back" would be to actually fix the fucking loot, no?
For all their talk about what would make the game fun, the one damn thing they could've done (fix the loot drops), they haven't done. They haven't even tried since 8 weeks after launch. That was over a year and a half ago.
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Could you please be reasonable? All these demands to just "fix loot" are not thought through. It's like asking them to finally cure Aids, after all those complaints about it..
You can't just do that. No matter how good and fancy items are on an individual basis and no matter how frequently they drop, 5 million other players will find anything before YOU do. And then you can get those items off them for virtually nothing (because they all compete with each other) long before you could ever hope to find them "legitimately".
You may personally not care ("self-discipline" and yadda yadda), but for example, I do. I don't climb a rope when there's a lift that everyone else uses. Feels just stupid. I'm all for the challenge but not in such cases.
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ModeratorI did, but you can't have both (no BoA and drop rates as high as if everything was BoA).
I don't care if people are OP, and I'm not worried about anything. Actually, I thought with the removal of the AH there is no reason for any BoA items at all. I did not see this coming and I didn't welcome it (at first). Only trying to make peace with it ;-)
I asked myself that question a lot, actually. Initially, my response was "no, I will not go to D2JSP". But then I thought: what if there was a wand that would enable Blizzard to stack? Because seriously, non-stacking Blizzard is the most annoying thing for me in the game right now. If I knew this item exist, there are guides out there to turn your wizard into a D2 Blizzard sorc, and I can't find that item, I might be tempted (after a few weeks) to go to D2JSP.
But this is not about me or you, it's about the majority of the community. And Blizzard believes that the majority of the community will not just try the builds that work with their self-found items, but is worried that over the many many communication channels (official forums, fan sites like DFans, Reddit, Twitch, and the infamous Youtube "celebrities") certain builds will earn popularity. But in order for these builds to work you might need some specific legendaries - and we're back to focusing on trading for specific items rather than playing the game.
Well, if I remember correctly, the last time I traded with a stranger was in 1.08, back when Vampire Gaze had fixed stats. After abandoning D2 for DAoC, I only ever returned to play self-found from time to time.
However that's not the point, neither is the "virtually nothing" in its literal meaning. I put that in "" for a reason
The point is, trading for something that 5 million people already have and are willing to sell, takes much less "effort" than getting said item through playing the game. THIS is the prime dilemma of D3 as of now and that's what they're trying to tackle with this move.
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Wise ElderWould you prefer if I said "improve loot"?
Semantics. The gateway to dishonest conversation.
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Depends on what you mean by that. If you only want more/better drops for yourself while playing the game, that's fine. But you can't have that plus an economy, in which it is easier to aquire items via playing than via trading, which is, what most people mean by "fix loot".
Well, you have to mean those people that used to trade/buy their stuff to faceroll MP10. I'm very sorry they won't be able to do so anymore
Well, these days any bad Mempo may be at 10k gold in the AH. When do you have that amount of gold? After normal act2? Sure that price would go up after a removal of the AH. But I'd give you any bet, that it'd still be easier to aquire a Mempo by way of trading than to actually find it. In D2, uniques were also sold in bulk for gems and such.
I see, what you mean, but this view is too drastic imo. It's not that the challenge of climbing the rope is so amazing, it's the challenge-reward relation. If you can get said reward (getting to the top) without a challenge, in a convenient way, there's no point taking the challenge. Though it's ok, if you think so. I'm not telling you, who is right or wrong
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IMO they should just have adjusted the drop rates and left the AH and trading as it was. Yes, that would ruin the economy for traders, but at least they could still trade while non-traders would also have their game experience improved. The way it is going now, only the very hardcore selffound non traders will be happy, the rest gets a kick in the ass.
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ModeratorOn drop. There's no "bind on ID" in D3 (yet). They would've mentioned that...
You would think it wouldn't bind till it was ID'ed
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ModeratorI don't think this makes sense. Keep in mind that with loot 2.0 we have smart drops (much higher probability to roll stats that benefit your class) as well as more reasonable affix ranges (e.g., not 1-80 for allresist but something like 75-100). If a Serpent's Sparker drops, you know that this is the item that allows you to run a Hydra build. Identification just reveals if it has good or very good stats, but it's not like a Mempo that is either BiS item or utter crap.
Really don't think that unid items are free to trade, wouldn't make much sense imho.
Also, the AH is currently the only reliable way to get items because droprates are so poor. That's a very different situation from having 2 different, but viable playstyles, especially when you take away the convenience factor.
I don't agree with Maka 100% on this issue, but I also think it's a very subjective gray area. Is it the dev's responsibility to ensure fair play, with an even playing field for everyone? Is it their responsibility to take away options that could, potentially, ruin someone's fun in some cases? That's very, VERY debatable.
If you take this line of thought further you could just remove all boundaries. Blizzard could just put a FAQ up at the beginning saying that it is a sandbox game and you can impose whatever limits you want to optimize your fun. Add an NPC that creates infinite gold, create an NPC that dupes items for you, increase legendary drop rate to whatever you want it to be. I mean what you choose to do doesn't effect anyone else right? It's all about your fun. If those NPCs ruin your fun show some self-control man!
But there in lies the problem. What many consider fun is based upon what is happening in the game at large within the community. To dismiss that just because your personal fun isn't being infringed upon is just as selfish in a sense.
You can keep pushing this "if trading is not fun, then don't trade" rhetoric all day long, but if I am not trading and my friend I play alongside is and he is killing monsters three times faster then me, that affects me. My personal fun has been compromised because I can't ignore that. Him killing faster effects my experience gain and my drops since monsters die quicker to the actions he is partaking in outside my gameplay. The boundaries imposed upon him being inequitable to mine outside of our game together has infringed upon my ability to share a common experience with him in the context of the game at large. For many, that is the fun of the game, the ability to share a common experience with the community imposed by the boundaries of the game itself on everyone mutually.
Many people care about the structure of the game as it is defined and enforced by Blizzard and want to play a game where everyone in the community is held to the same standard of play. For them, therein lies their personal fun. It enforces a sense of camaraderie that we are all playing the same game with the same limitations. What those limitations are defined at matters immensely.
I am not using this argument to make a case for whether trading should or shouldn't be allowed. If you want to be able to trade and want to make a case for that in the context of the game, fine. I am all for that. But, please, talk about it in the context of finding loot and feeling a sense of reward in doing so. How do these choices affect everyone and their ability to share a common experience? But don't use that "self-control" argument as if it had any relevance. Boundaries set by Blizzard matters. What people around you are doing in a multiplayer environment matters. It may not matter to you, but if it matters to even just a minority it is still relevant and not dismissible.
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Top 10 Solo Wizard Leaderboard - North America
Highest: Rank 6 // Greater Rift 42 12m40s
In that game mode it is all about getting to the top in the most efficient manner. However if getting to the top is going to be cheapened by trading then it will ruin the competetion. People who grind by themselves will lose out to the large clans/streamers etc who just give 1 guy all the best items.
They will be taking the lift when most will be taking the stairs. Creating a BoA model would make sure to reduce the edge (from trading networks/ community created AH) that some would have in that competitive format.
A game should give you a fun experience within its rules and limitations. If more limitations can increase the fun, then I'll gladly take them.
So, how in the world is being unable to trade items with your friends, people you've known for YEARS, just because they weren't online... or in your game at the tme... an INCREASE in fun?
How do some of you people manage to keep twisting it back to "It's more fun to find your own items?"
No one is arguing that it's not MORE FUN to do that. But it's also LESS FUN to go months, and months, and months without the drop you're really looking for and have no way at all to rectify that. It's a fine line and "only with the 3 other people for 2 hours after it drops" is setting up far too many LESS FUN scenarios in my mind. Sure, those orange lightshafts might be 1% more fun for me, but you've now forced me to sacrifice a bunch of other shit that I find fun.
So, yes, I might get more enjoyment out of the drops, but I'm getting less overall enjoyment from the game. Great! So while you're making a technically-correct statement, you're making that statement in a vacuum without considering the OTHER effects that a change like this will have that will make the game LESS FUN overall for many people.
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Wise ElderNo disrespect meant. And I actually am beginning to like the direction they're taking, and never spent a single dime on the RMAH, so I kinda agree with you.
But I don't understand the P2W concept in a game like this. Does it surface when people compare their characters? Do we even have "some" competition, even without ladders? Because we can compare profiles and character power? And guys like Archon, Alkaizer and Jaetch are "winners", and everyone else is a "loser"?
But I keep reading the statement: "if I find something cool I can't trade it to my friends!" But from a development standpoint - wouldn't they assume that you are playing the game...with your friends. So therefore - you can trade with your friends.
Yes there are circumstances where you can't be online at the same time, all the time with your friends. So it would be nice to be able to hold onto that new hawt item and trade/give to a friend later on down the road. But what if you couldn't? So when you solo play you will look more for yourself and if you find an item that doesn't benefit you, you are more inspired to salvage it and potentially use it to help YOUR character.
Then when you are farming with your friends you can trade items that you find - because you've already played a bit on your own and took care of your character along the way.
Look - I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this change to trading. But if you can move past how they told us about it and actually consider the idea; does it have merit for you?
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