I could be wrong here but... how hard is a game has no real correlation with the itemization. You can have a terrible itemization model and the hardest difficulty ever known, or a easy game with a nice and fun itemization.
Also, easy is relative, since you can raise the difficulty with /player X.
The root of the problem with 'itemization' is that people feel they are pigeon-holed into a very small pool of gear that will get them through the content and allow them to farm efficiently.
Why do they feel that way? Because on D3's harder difficulties, you have to meet certain defensive / offensive stat levels to be able to survive / kill in a timely manner. This was also true of D2, but the difficulty (of which I'm talking about numbers here, so it's not subjective) of D2 in terms of monsters HP and their damage, was easily overcome by just being level 85 + and having medium valued gear. This means you can pick from a much larger pool of items which ones you want to use, which is what a lot of D3 players want. I know I personally want to be able to equip a wizardspike because it's cool on my Wizard. But that's not going to provide NEAR as much damage as a high end EF or the like.
So, again, to support my one arguing point; D2 did not have better itemization.
You conveniently disregarded his "/players x" argument. D2 did have MP levels: they were called "/players x".
Oh, I apologize, should have thrown that in. Even with /players x MAXED, people could faceroll D2 hell mode by themselves, that's why it was put in in the first place.
My argument still stands; If D2's hardest part was anywhere close to D3's MP 10 inferno, then both game's itemization would have been the same; crap. Because everyone would have been forced to use only BiS items to get through it. But, because D2 was so easy, it didn't *really* matter what you wore in terms of gear to beat it.
To start, you actually didn't prove D2 had better itemization.
Secondly, you just proved my point; D2 had the illusion of itemization because you didn't NEED to 'stack crit' or, in my argument, you didn't need to have BiS gear to beat the hardest part of the game. Like I said, if the 'hardest' mode of D3 was MP2, then D3 would have the illusion of itemization because everyone could wear pretty much whatever gear they wanted.
I didn't have to,, You proved it. I just added to it.
Also, you keep bringing up illusions and like I said,, im not buying less is more angle.
D3 may have harder monsters to deal with. But you have to remember that MP is a product of bad itemization in D3.
And again, you've brought zero proof, facts, or hell even just good arguing points to your position.
Why not allow Paragon levels to add to the base roll of items?
Say you have an item that could roll 100 to 400str and you were P30 then add 30 to the random stat roll and also allow the P level bonus to exceed the maximum possible value too?
Also tied into Paragon’s, why not allow people to assign their bonus stat points any way they want after reaching L60?
Hmm...the fact that I could beat the game solo at its hardest is a bad thing? I don't get that part.
That's not the point. The point (as far as I understood) is that is that a lower difficulty leaves more room for errors and experimentation, whereas higher difficulty leads to "min/maxing" and "efficiency" as we see this in D3 right now. And these differences inherently lead to different itemization paradigms.
Oh, I apologize, should have thrown that in. Even with /players x MAXED, people could faceroll D2 hell mode by themselves, that's why it was put in in the first place.
Could you or anyone else please be so kind then and record a vid of how you faceroll /players 8 Chaos Sanctuary with reasonable gear (eg no rune higher than Vex, no inventory full of skill charms)?
From my memory, that is possible to do yet in no way facerolling. I'm not even convinced it was easier than MP10 D3 at all.
Hmm...the fact that I could beat the game solo at its hardest is a bad thing? I don't get that part.
That's not the point. The point (as far as I understood) is that is that a lower difficulty leaves more room for errors and experimentation, whereas higher difficulty leads to "min/maxing" and "efficiency" as we see this in D3 right now. And these differences inherently lead to different itemization paradigms.
I don't think, that's a valid point. Min/maxing is something natural to gamers. Whether a game is easy or not, people strive for more and more potency. In D3 people could make fun builds that might only work on a low MP just as well, they just don't do it because they feel bad for it with everyone bragging about MP10 these days. Such chars in D2 weren't made for /players 8 either.
Hmm...the fact that I could beat the game solo at its hardest is a bad thing? I don't get that part.
beat is not the same as faceroll. And you can also beat d3 solo at the hardest difficulty, it just takes much longer cause the hardest difficulty is actually hard in d3.
Oh, I apologize, should have thrown that in. Even with /players x MAXED, people could faceroll D2 hell mode by themselves, that's why it was put in in the first place.
Could you or anyone else please be so kind then and record a vid of how you faceroll /players 8 Chaos Sanctuary with reasonable gear (eg no rune higher than Vex, no inventory full of skill charms)?
From my memory, that is possible to do yet in no way facerolling. I'm not even convinced it was easier than MP10 D3 at all.
Interesting - I completely agree, but didn't dare to post this and declare myself as a noob. Maybe it was because I only played D2 self-found and never got any of the duped high-runes, so I totally second that. Actually, I think I never facerolled anything in D2 CS players 8 as I do now on D3 MP10 (not-selffound, but also not a billionaire either).
Hmm...the fact that I could beat the game solo at its hardest is a bad thing? I don't get that part.
That's not the point. The point (as far as I understood) is that is that a lower difficulty leaves more room for errors and experimentation, whereas higher difficulty leads to "min/maxing" and "efficiency" as we see this in D3 right now. And these differences inherently lead to different itemization paradigms.
I don't think, that's a valid point. Min/maxing is something natural to gamers. Whether a game is easy or not, people strive for more and more potency. In D3 people could make fun builds that might only work on a low MP just as well, they just don't do it because they feel bad for it with everyone bragging about MP10 these days. Such chars in D2 weren't made for /players 8 either.
Like I said, I played D2 differently than D3 - self-found vs AH user. However, I never got the impression that the D2 community back in the days was limited on one item for a slot (except for enigma, and illegal ones of course) or was about min/maxing and "efficiency" to the extent it has evolved into for D3.
I was just trying to paraphrase what I interpreted from Twoflower's statement. No idea if it's valid or not; it made some sense to me, but then, as you already said, it's probably not entirely true that D2 was that easier after all. So we're back to square one in order to figure out why D2's system was so much better and learning how this can be applied to D3 without just re-introducing charms (which I would hate) or runewords (which I would love).
I'll tell you why, Bagstone.... because items in D2 had good affixes and good rolls, and could be found... lso, most people use at least 2 set items... sets and uniques in D2 were designed to be worth finding / using, and their stat ranges were slim.... 6 - 9% LS on an item, instead of no life steal, or life steal. I understand D3 wanted to change how items were, but in doing so it produces a whole lot of trash... legs roll with low mainstat.... why?????? Or other useless affixes... that's the issue... TOO MUCH diversity in items
So we're back to square one in order to figure out why D2's system was so much better and learning how this can be applied to D3 without just re-introducing charms (which I would hate) or runewords (which I would love).
Simple question: Why?
I've already stated that I wouldn't like charms either, but runes including a complete revamp of the socketing system? Hell yeah
I think, the current D3 team simply wants to do their own stuff too much. "Borrowing" ideas from other games has always been a big strength of Blizz and now they're not even utilizing their own legacy for input.
Reorganizing and balancing the item affixes and basic attributes. I believe the current affixes in-game are good enough from a functional standpoint and that any more would make it even harder to roll something good. Maybe some affixes have to be removed completely, I for one don't really like pickup radius (I prefer light radius), Life on Kill, and some others I don't remember.
Class-specific items should have built-in properties that set them apart from the any-class items. Take Monk Fist weapons compared to 1h swords for example; right now there is no difference between the two in terms of basic properties, it's just the Fist can roll Monk-specific affixes and the 1h sword cannot, most of the time I don't even care for these affixes. Fists could have a chance to block, Wands generate Arcane Energy on hit, Ceremonial Knives increase Mana regeneration, Mighty Weapons have increased CHD, Cloaks give Dodge etc etc. These built-in properties shouldn't have to count to your max 6 affix count. These affixes can also be skill modifiers (If I remember correctly superior grade class-specific gear in D2 had a chance to roll skill mods.)
Distribution of some item affixes into another game mechanic. As of now, the game is too reliant on gear to customize a character, skill customization included even though right now its ridiculously paltry skill customization. Mainly I'd like skill customization to be moved somewhere else (Talisman Mechanic/Mystic Artisan).
I for one don't really like pickup radius (I prefer light radius)
Please, pickup radius is the one outstanding stat that is an improvement over D2. Maybe not the only one, but definitely a great thing. I did a single Pindleskin run some weeks ago while checking my D2 saves and it took me roughly 10 seconds of walking over a gold pile until I realized that I had to click it
I often thought about expanding pickup radius to also pick up the light blue stuff.
I for one don't really like pickup radius (I prefer light radius)
Please, pickup radius is the one outstanding stat that is an improvement over D2. Maybe not the only one, but definitely a great thing. I did a single Pindleskin run some weeks ago while checking my D2 saves and it took me roughly 10 seconds of walking over a gold pile until I realized that I had to click it
I often thought about expanding pickup radius to also pick up the light blue stuff.
Auto Pickup is fine. I just don't really like pick up radius as an affix to roll on my gear.
I just hope we get something worth discussing for.
I'd love to see our forums bursting with tons of people excited with the expansion or the next big patch.
Oh, I apologize, should have thrown that in. Even with /players x MAXED, people could faceroll D2 hell mode by themselves, that's why it was put in in the first place.
My argument still stands; If D2's hardest part was anywhere close to D3's MP 10 inferno, then both game's itemization would have been the same; crap. Because everyone would have been forced to use only BiS items to get through it. But, because D2 was so easy, it didn't *really* matter what you wore in terms of gear to beat it.
And again, you've brought zero proof, facts, or hell even just good arguing points to your position.
Say you have an item that could roll 100 to 400str and you were P30 then add 30 to the random stat roll and also allow the P level bonus to exceed the maximum possible value too?
Also tied into Paragon’s, why not allow people to assign their bonus stat points any way they want after reaching L60?
That's not the point. The point (as far as I understood) is that is that a lower difficulty leaves more room for errors and experimentation, whereas higher difficulty leads to "min/maxing" and "efficiency" as we see this in D3 right now. And these differences inherently lead to different itemization paradigms.
Could you or anyone else please be so kind then and record a vid of how you faceroll /players 8 Chaos Sanctuary with reasonable gear (eg no rune higher than Vex, no inventory full of skill charms)?
From my memory, that is possible to do yet in no way facerolling. I'm not even convinced it was easier than MP10 D3 at all.
I don't think, that's a valid point. Min/maxing is something natural to gamers. Whether a game is easy or not, people strive for more and more potency. In D3 people could make fun builds that might only work on a low MP just as well, they just don't do it because they feel bad for it with everyone bragging about MP10 these days. Such chars in D2 weren't made for /players 8 either.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
beat is not the same as faceroll. And you can also beat d3 solo at the hardest difficulty, it just takes much longer cause the hardest difficulty is actually hard in d3.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
Interesting - I completely agree, but didn't dare to post this and declare myself as a noob. Maybe it was because I only played D2 self-found and never got any of the duped high-runes, so I totally second that. Actually, I think I never facerolled anything in D2 CS players 8 as I do now on D3 MP10 (not-selffound, but also not a billionaire either).
Like I said, I played D2 differently than D3 - self-found vs AH user. However, I never got the impression that the D2 community back in the days was limited on one item for a slot (except for enigma, and illegal ones of course) or was about min/maxing and "efficiency" to the extent it has evolved into for D3.
I was just trying to paraphrase what I interpreted from Twoflower's statement. No idea if it's valid or not; it made some sense to me, but then, as you already said, it's probably not entirely true that D2 was that easier after all. So we're back to square one in order to figure out why D2's system was so much better and learning how this can be applied to D3 without just re-introducing charms (which I would hate) or runewords (which I would love).
Simple question: Why?
I've already stated that I wouldn't like charms either, but runes including a complete revamp of the socketing system? Hell yeah
I think, the current D3 team simply wants to do their own stuff too much. "Borrowing" ideas from other games has always been a big strength of Blizz and now they're not even utilizing their own legacy for input.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
Class-specific items should have built-in properties that set them apart from the any-class items. Take Monk Fist weapons compared to 1h swords for example; right now there is no difference between the two in terms of basic properties, it's just the Fist can roll Monk-specific affixes and the 1h sword cannot, most of the time I don't even care for these affixes. Fists could have a chance to block, Wands generate Arcane Energy on hit, Ceremonial Knives increase Mana regeneration, Mighty Weapons have increased CHD, Cloaks give Dodge etc etc. These built-in properties shouldn't have to count to your max 6 affix count. These affixes can also be skill modifiers (If I remember correctly superior grade class-specific gear in D2 had a chance to roll skill mods.)
Distribution of some item affixes into another game mechanic. As of now, the game is too reliant on gear to customize a character, skill customization included even though right now its ridiculously paltry skill customization. Mainly I'd like skill customization to be moved somewhere else (Talisman Mechanic/Mystic Artisan).
Please, pickup radius is the one outstanding stat that is an improvement over D2. Maybe not the only one, but definitely a great thing. I did a single Pindleskin run some weeks ago while checking my D2 saves and it took me roughly 10 seconds of walking over a gold pile until I realized that I had to click it
I often thought about expanding pickup radius to also pick up the light blue stuff.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
Auto Pickup is fine. I just don't really like pick up radius as an affix to roll on my gear.