TLDR; D2 didn't have better itemization, the difficulty was just so much lower than D3 that you could wear what you wanted, giving the illusion that every item was awesome.
I'm using D2's itemization via PvP to truly judge it's merit.
PvP was the ultimate challenge (in terms of difficulty) offered in D2.
I think a lot of people that avoided D2 pvp probably won't understand but I totally agree. Even without the xpac additions D2 classic still had a ton of thinking behind it.
TLDR; D2 didn't have better itemization, the difficulty was just so much lower than D3 that you could wear what you wanted, giving the illusion that every item was awesome.
I'm using D2's itemization via PvP to truly judge it's merit.
PvP was the ultimate challenge (in terms of difficulty) offered in D2.
I think a lot of people that avoided D2 pvp probably won't understand but I totally agree. Even without the xpac additions D2 classic still had a ton of thinking behind it.
I can attest to the PvP itemization diversity from the perspective of a GM Melee dueler. The options were many, the diversity of effects was overwhelming.
Depending on my opponent and his gear, I could choose from a convoluted assortment of gears, all offering varying affects on my opponent. What was most profound was the effectiveness of lower level items, even at the highest level of competition. Angelics, G-Face etc....
Keep in mind that I participated in player organized tournaments. Organized by various guilds, complete with prizes etc.
TLDR; D2 didn't have better itemization, the difficulty was just so much lower than D3 that you could wear what you wanted, giving the illusion that every item was awesome.
I'm using D2's itemization via PvP to truly judge it's merit.
PvP was the ultimate challenge (in terms of difficulty) offered in D2.
Of course D2 had better itemization. How you could say different beguiles me. Just based on the number of item types alone I could make this claim with confidence. Jewels, Charms, socketed greys/white, Etheral, runes.... that's 5 item types that D3 doesn't even have, and D3 offers nothing to replace these omitted item types.
2-hand weapons are almost useless altogether.
D3's itemization is so bad it ruins the greatness that is it's gameplay.
These items were in the game but have been cut out again. Why? Because they think they can do better. If adding charms, jewels and runes is all it takes to make this the best game ever than you can pretty fucking excited because that's what this is going to come in the addons: Reiterated improved versions of what worked so well in D2.
I am excited and you're exactly 100% correct. It won't take much to push this thing over the proverbial hump. It's the amount of time passed that wears on me, such a long time now to wait for something I took for granted would be included at launch some 14+ months ago.
Frustration aside, the light at the end of the tunnel is apparent.
Except you missed the part where D2 did have better itemization. Did everyone stack crit? No.
Maybe they did not stack crit, but they did stack IAS/FCR, +skills, crushing blow and life/mana leech and resistances and FHR in some cases. We have a bit less variety on some of the stats, but it is not that different.
Stacking cast rate/IAS and hit recovery was about hitting frame rates. Especially in PVP.
Besides you do know that what you brought up is a lot right, even tho you left alot out.? Especially when you consider all the + skill items attached to it. So much diversity and depth to how the skills and items come together for each class. In D3, its pretty basic in that every setup follows the same rules.
Im not really buying into the whole less is more concept.
TLDR; D2 didn't have better itemization, the difficulty was just so much lower than D3 that you could wear what you wanted, giving the illusion that every item was awesome.
Except you missed the part where D2 did have better itemization. Did everyone stack crit? No. And really, its because D2 was 50% skill tree build and 50% items. In D3 we have no skill trees and the game is 100% item dependant.
In D2 I could literally beat Diablo with a naked Sorc or Necro if the skill trees where used right.
I don't understand why people keep saying D2 had some sort of magical illusion going on. But I sure as hell would love someone to cast some sort of magical illusion on D3 that would give it the same depth as D2.
.
To start, you actually didn't prove D2 had better itemization.
Secondly, you just proved my point; D2 had the illusion of itemization because you didn't NEED to 'stack crit' or, in my argument, you didn't need to have BiS gear to beat the hardest part of the game. Like I said, if the 'hardest' mode of D3 was MP2, then D3 would have the illusion of itemization because everyone could wear pretty much whatever gear they wanted.
TLDR; D2 didn't have better itemization, the difficulty was just so much lower than D3 that you could wear what you wanted, giving the illusion that every item was awesome.
I'm using D2's itemization via PvP to truly judge it's merit.
PvP was the ultimate challenge (in terms of difficulty) offered in D2.
Of course D2 had better itemization. How you could say different beguiles me. Just based on the number of item types alone I could make this claim with confidence. Jewels, Charms, socketed greys/white, Etheral, runes.... that's 5 item types that D3 doesn't even have, and D3 offers nothing to replace these omitted item types.
2-hand weapons are almost useless altogether.
D3's itemization is so bad it ruins the greatness that is it's gameplay.
You're very right on the side that D2 had more dropped items; I absolutely made the argument that more dropped items would help D3's itemization, such as more gems, jewels, runes, charms, ect.
I however was commenting on JUST the affix part of gear, which D2 didn't do better. Runewords outshone almost everything where applicable, and there were set-in-stone BiS pieces that made everything else in that slot obsolete. The difference is what I just stated above; You could out-level the content and be so OP that it didn't matter what gear you chose in the end in D2. That doesn't mean D2 had actual better itemization.
To start, you actually didn't prove D2 had better itemization.
Secondly, you just proved my point; D2 had the illusion of itemization ............
With all due respect, I find the above statements to be preposterous.
Let's start with the most OP and diverse affix that D2 offered; +(1) or (2) to All Skills.
This affix, unlike D3's + to main stat, doesn't just boost damge, rather, all the dynamics of all skill affects are boosted by a drastic percentage.
There's one huge leap over D3 itemization.
Cannot Be Frozen. This D2 affix allowed players the choice to not just mitigate (as seen with % reduction to CC affects in D3) but rather ignore the Frozen affix altogether.
No such affix is available in D3.
Ethereal, a quandary posing affix that relegated an item to a whole different item type. Boosting the items inherent abilities by a great deal. However, requiring a very rare rune to utilize. As well, to use such items, one needed to utilize the socket for a Zod to preserve the item for use. Unless said item had an inherent affix of self repair, of course. Which is in and of itself another great affix offered that made items which did spawn as ETH even more valuable.
No such item is available in Diablo 3
Horadric Cube;
Wow....where do I start with this itemization tool? This tool allowed players to finagle and manipulate most item types to a tune of seemingly endless variety. Socketing, buffing and changing items in a gambling, random fashion. End-game bliss, and one of the most ingenious advents ever witnessed within the ARPG genre.
Diablo 3 has no such tool. They shit-canned the Cube. Shame on them.
Charms;
Allows the players to buff any and all avenues of the character sheet.
Diablo 3 has no such item class.
Jewels;
Like gems in Diablo 2/3, the jewel offered the player a manner of manipulating any and all attributes of the character sheet. Diablo 3 has only 1 comparable item type, 4 types of gems. Whereas D2 had 6 (i think?) types of gems and a literally endless variety of jewels to be used in the same manner as gems, only, they had unending variation.
Runes;
Could be used to create new items. As well, used as a stand alone socket, they added to the choices for the utilization of a socket from 6 to something numbered well in the dozens.
Diablo 3 has only 4 means of use for sockets. Diablo 2 had ....well I can't count that high.
But you're gonna sit there and pretend all of this was an "illusion"? C'MON MAN......be honest at least. Perhaps next you shall ask me to prove how wet is water?
This is all off the top of my head in reference to a game I haven't played in 4 years. There's more, much more.
To start, you actually didn't prove D2 had better itemization.
Secondly, you just proved my point; D2 had the illusion of itemization ............
With all due respect, I find the above statements to be preposterous.
Let's start with the most OP and diverse affix that D2 offered; +(1) or (2) to All Skills.
This affix, unlike D3's + to main stat, doesn't just boost damge, rather, all the dynamics of all skill affects are boosted by a drastic percentage.
There's one huge leap over D3 itemization.
Cannot Be Frozen. This D2 affix allowed players the choice to not just mitigate (as seen with % reduction to CC affects in D3) but rather ignore the Frozen affix altogether.
No such affix is available in D3.
Ethereal, a quandary posing affix that relegated an item to a whole different item type. Boosting the items inherent abilities by a great deal. However, requiring a very rare rune to utilize. As well, to use such items, one needed to utilize the socket for a Zod to preserve the item for use. Unless said item had an inherent affix of self repair, of course. Which is in and of itself another great affix offered that made items which did spawn as ETH even more valuable.
No such item is available in Diablo 3
Horadric Cube;
Wow....where do I start with this itemization tool? This tool allowed players to finagle and manipulate most item types to a tune of seemingly endless variety. Socketing, buffing and changing items in a gambling, random fashion. End-game bliss, and one of the most ingenious advents ever witnessed within the ARPG genre.
Diablo 3 has no such tool. They shit-canned the Cube. Shame on them.
Charms;
Allows the players to buff any and all avenues of the character sheet.
Diablo 3 has no such item class.
Jewels;
Like gems in Diablo 2/3, the jewel offered the player a manner of manipulating any and all attributes of the character sheet. Diablo 3 has only 1 comparable item type, 4 types of gems. Whereas D2 had 6 (i think?) types of gems and a literally endless variety of jewels to be used in the same manner as gems, only, they had unending variation.
Runes;
Could be used to create new items. As well, used as a stand alone socket, they added to the choices for the utilization of a socket from 6 to something numbered well in the dozens.
Diablo 3 has only 4 means of use for sockets. Diablo 2 had ....well I can't count that high.
But you're gonna sit there and pretend all of this was an "illusion"? C'MON MAN......be honest at least. Perhaps next you shall ask me to prove how wet is water?
This is all off the top of my head in reference to a game I haven't played in 4 years. There's more, much more.
Like I just said, we are arguing two different things here. I have never said D3 has better dropped items. D3 BADLY needs new things to look for besides just weapons and armor; Charms, runes, jewels and more gems to start. D2 did this better obviously, because it had them.
What I have said though, and I'll say it again, is that D2's affixes and it's 'itemization' (and I'm just referring to it's affixes, stats, and BiS items) was just as lacking as D3. Being BiS meant using almost the same exact gear no matter your class. Runewords and usually just 1 unique out of the slot were just not comparable to the rest because of how good they were. The EXACT same problem that's in D3 right now.
And again (sorry to everyone who's going to have read this for the 3rd time) the only reason you could pick out almost whatever gear you wanted and still beat the hardest part of the game without the need FOR the BiS gear, is because D2's hardest part was still really easy. You didn't HAVE to max edps / ehp in order to do completely mind numbing Baal runs. In D3, the hardest part is MP10 which requires you have near perfect BiS gear in every slot to be able to farm efficiently.
Unfortunately because of this current state in D3, choice in gear is extremely limited if you want to farm the hardest part, which most players probably want to do. I've already listed earlier exactly what I think would help alleviate this problem in terms of more dropped items, normalized legendary weapon DPS, more damage increasing affixes, fixes on some current defensive affixes, increasing the legendary pool at inferno to inlcude all legendaries, and the introduction of actually useful / awesome / game-changing unique affixes to every legendary.
TLDR; We are again arguing two different things. To put it short, I'm arguing that D2 did NOT have the ideal itemization. They may have had more dropped items (which I would love in D3) but that != good 'itemization', as far as affixes and stat ranges go.
I could be wrong here but... how hard is a game has no real correlation with the itemization. You can have a terrible itemization model and the hardest difficulty ever known, or a easy game with a nice and fun itemization.
Also, easy is relative, since you can raise the difficulty with /player X.
I could be wrong here but... how hard is a game has no real correlation with the itemization. You can have a terrible itemization model and the hardest difficulty ever known, or a easy game with a nice and fun itemization.
Also, easy is relative, since you can raise the difficulty with /player X.
The root of the problem with 'itemization' is that people feel they are pigeon-holed into a very small pool of gear that will get them through the content and allow them to farm efficiently.
Why do they feel that way? Because on D3's harder difficulties, you have to meet certain defensive / offensive stat levels to be able to survive / kill in a timely manner. This was also true of D2, but the difficulty (of which I'm talking about numbers here, so it's not subjective) of D2 in terms of monsters HP and their damage, was easily overcome by just being level 85 + and having medium valued gear. This means you can pick from a much larger pool of items which ones you want to use, which is what a lot of D3 players want. I know I personally want to be able to equip a wizardspike because it's cool on my Wizard. But that's not going to provide NEAR as much damage as a high end EF or the like.
So, again, to support my one arguing point; D2 did not have better itemization.
IE 152 int on a Manticore to 152 Dex. (Changing value not affix)
This is just an idea havent really got a fix not my job. Adding more legendaries that no one will ever use will be pointless. removing them will inflate prices.
Good luck Blizz
Ideas like these are what need to be going through the devs heads.
TLDR; We are again arguing two different things. To put it short, I'm arguing that D2 did NOT have the ideal itemization. They may have had more dropped items (which I would love in D3) but that != good 'itemization', as far as affixes and stat ranges go.
Things are getting a bit convoluted here. You're explaining that D2 had "more dropped items". I think a better way to term this is to say; D2 had more item types, OR, more useful item types. i.e. Charms, Jewels, Runes, Socketed whites/Greys, Etherals, (Blues in some cases).
These item types allowed the available affixes which affect the character sheet to have greater potency than what we see with D3. As well, more variation and wider gear choices to achieve desired goals.
Example; I didn't need to make sure that my armor, helm belt etc had vitality on them to reach a desired life-amount goal. I could choose whatever gears I wanted, ignoring vita on these pieces, because I could supplement vita from charms.
^^That is one extension of D2's far more diverse 'itemization'.
Another would be the "OP-ness" of many of D2's items, or, the overpowered-ness that MANY items had to offer. In other words, so many of D2's items were so OP, so devastatingly harsh that it made the PvM/PvE aspect of the game seem nothing more than an afterthought.
I'm going to choose a weapon and an armor from D2 to show that these items weren't only OP, but had a far more diverse range of affix affects than anything we're seeing in D3.
The first example was the favored Fortitude Armor. This (unintentionally) common armor gave extreme boosts to Damage, Defense, Resistence and Life. Sounds like D3, huh? Adding Main stat, resist, Vita and Armor accomplishes this in D3.
The reason why the Fortitude rocks over any D3 armor type, in terms of diversity, was 3-fold.
1) +(30) All Attributes. Boosts all aspects of the character sheet with one single affix.
2) Provided FCR (Faster Cast Rate/caster attack speed rating).
3) The values of the affixes were set far higher than the comparative values of "godly" D3 gears.
On to my favorite D2 weapon, The Ethereal Breath Of The Dying
This fucker, if it had titties I'd sex it.
Why does this item take a shit on even the best D3 weapon?
1) The value range of it's raw damage (inherent DPS) was ALWAYS very high. Even on the low end, it was OP. On the high end, when paired with a +15% shell, was unreal.
2) It not only offered extraordinary Attack Speed but extreme damage, Prevent Monster Heal, Attack Rating and -% to Target Defense (see also;ITD;Ignore Target Defense seen on Grief Weapons).
Just in that one sentence, in reference to two different weapons (Grief/BotD) I've listed 4 affix effects that Diablo 3 doesn't have (said affixes underlined above).
Now, people whom didn't do D2 PvP, OR, people whom weren't heavily involved in organized PvP, well....they have ZERO fucking appreciation for these not-so-subtle nuances volleyed by these 'missing' affixes in D3. In short, you wouldn't appreciate the power and diversity of these items if all you did was PvE and/or dabble frivolously in PVP.
I did. I competed with the best for years in the GM Melee Elite Zeal Duels (PalaPK Nation etc). Standard practice for the high-end EZD'ers (Elite Zeal Duelers) was to not use just 1 set of gear, but a combination of dozens of gears that could be tweaked endlessly for varying affects toward one end or another.
The only slots on an Elite PvP Zealot that were set in stone were the boots (Gores) and the belt (Dungos). Everything else was subject to change depending on your opponent.
In closing, D3 has great itemization ideas of it's own. Only, they're too few, too "Not-OP" and missing several affects/affix diversities. Good news is, if the D3 devs recognize this issue, it takes just a few turns of the proverbial screw and we CAN BE treated to even better itemization than what we had in D2.
That's not good news, it's great news. As well, so easy to accomplish. It's sad such things weren't in the game at launch., However, some day *soon, this may all be water under the bridge. But in no way shape or form am I going to say that better itemization in D2 was an illusion. It was a fact.
2) It not only offered extraordinary Attack Speed but extreme damage, Prevent Monster Heal, Attack Rating and -% to Target Defense (see also;ITD;Ignore Target Defense seen on Grief Weapons).
Just in that one sentence, in reference to two different weapons (Grief/BotD) I've listed 4 affix effects that Diablo 3 doesn't have (said affixes underlined above).
I am not against or with you in this but...
Attack Rating is the worst attribute ever introduced to the Diablo universe. I'm glad it's gone. Anyway, not many monsters can dodge in D3 and no one really stacks dodge that high in their characters either.
-% Target Defense is in the same vein as "Target takes % more damage".
TBH, I'd like to see more rewards for stacking defense rather than just stacking offense on items. There should be a point that stacking enough damage reduction would make you nearly invulnerable just like there is a point where stacking enough bonus damage can make you kill anything in a matter of seconds.
These items were in the game but have been cut out again. Why? Because they think they can do better.
They really should trademark this. Otherwise I'll claim that I've built my own spaceship that outraces those NASA snails. Won't show it to anyone though, because I think, I can still do better! Pretty sad attitude if you ask me.
On that discussion about D2s multitude of items:
Runes and Rune Words: They were great, really. If not for those cursed dupes they could have been a long term goal for players at the top of the itemization (like MP10 gear).
To get them into D3, Blizz would only need to remove sockets from the affix pool and make them a separate attribute again. That would also make way for the reintroduction of jewels.
Charms: Please do not bring them back, all they did was remove the inventory.
Horadric Cube: That's the same as crafting, the latter being potentially better because it doesn't use inventory/stash space.
On that "D2 was too easy for itemization to matter" part:
Well, you did need quite some gear to do Chaos Sanctuary on /players 8 on your own, or the uber bosses. Baal runs being trivial in a full group of duped-up chars with a map hack Sorc creating a portal to the Throne room mere seconds into the game, is not a good argument for the game being too easy.
And besides, I don't think, difficulty is that relevant for a good itemization, people will always aim for better gear just to farm faster. Both games failed at making use of the whole itemization table by granting the BiS stuff too fast. In D2 the dupes were to blame, in D3 I don't want to name a specific reason, but being able to purchase high end legs for the price of nothing surely wasn't intended
edit:
Oh, and besides, ruksak, you missed the main point of Fortitude: 300% ed
That stat didn't roll on anything but weapons or jewels (iirc). So, even four of those duped 40/15 jewels wouldn't get you to 300 if you put them in any four-socketed armor (of the Whale).
edit:
Oh, and besides, ruksak, you missed the main point of Fortitude: 300% ed
That stat didn't roll on anything but weapons or jewels (iirc). So, even four of those duped 40/15 jewels wouldn't get you to 300 if you put them in any four-socketed armor (of the Whale).
I didn't mention it specifically. But I did elude to it here;
The values of the affixes were set far higher than the comparative values of "godly" D3 gears.
Meaning to compare it to something like Inna's Pants, which gives + Main Stat, IAS and 1% Crit. Which all affect damage, but nowhere near the OP'ness of a Fortitude Armor. Nothing in D3 offers such a drastic upgrade to the character sheet.
I would like to see MANY items of the same slot offer such embellishments, with varying affects of course. Something to cause the player to have to think as to what to apply to a given slot. As I said, in D2 I did a lot of Zeal PvP. Often times it was a Leviathan or Eshaftstop that I would use for the Damage Reduction Affix, another great Diablo 2 affix that is absent in D3.
I view much of Diablo 3 itemization and character building as being a great framework, but a framework only. i.e. it leaves the player feeling as though it's incomplete. Likely because....well it is incomplete.
On topic : again all the comparing to d2... Still not buying it.
Yes, the difficulty of d2 has a great deal to do with the way you have to implement itemisation and skilltrees etc. When the game is beatable by a naked char with no skill or stat points spent, it does not really matter how you balance those items and skill and stat points because no matter which ones you take, it just makes things easier. That's why they had to introduce synergies to make you think at least liiiiiiiittle bit which skills you choose and to give all the not-max-rank skills at least some meaning.
Yes, you can glorify the -target defense or armor stats, but the fact is, you didnt need to pay attention to them unless you made the most nichy of all niche builds. D2 also had his hammerbuild who just spammed hammers everywhere or the summoner or the meteorb sorc, they all played exactly the same plow trough mobs style that people complain about nowadays. You had Botd cause it did the most weapon damage, and you had fortitude for + skills and extra damage. In fact, +skills were the "crit chance/crit dmg " of d2, everybody wanted it and nobody ever got enugh of it and most other stats were secondary.
tldr : d3 is harder than d2, so you cannot go with the "bring whatever you want and you will be able to beat the game " mentality from d2. Which is good. Harder game is more interesting and lasts longer.
To start, you actually didn't prove D2 had better itemization.
Secondly, you just proved my point; D2 had the illusion of itemization because you didn't NEED to 'stack crit' or, in my argument, you didn't need to have BiS gear to beat the hardest part of the game. Like I said, if the 'hardest' mode of D3 was MP2, then D3 would have the illusion of itemization because everyone could wear pretty much whatever gear they wanted.
I didn't have to,, You proved it. I just added to it.
Also, you keep bringing up illusions and like I said,, im not buying less is more angle.
D3 may have harder monsters to deal with. But you have to remember that MP is a product of bad itemization in D3.
tldr : d3 is harder than d2, so you cannot go with the "bring whatever you want and you will be able to beat the game " mentality from d2. Which is good. Harder game is more interesting and lasts longer.
That's funny.. because what's happening is the opposite.
Just a few quick points. Ranges on all items increased. Such as main stat. If I kill a level 63 monster, I don't want anything less than 100 main stat and vit. This transfers over to legs as well, but make them a higher number, I.e. 150. Damage on all legs, and other stats also increased to meet ilvl 63 criteria. Sockets should be 1 roll, consisting of 1 socket, 2 sockets, or 3 sockets. Otherwise you just eat up affix rolls on items that could otherwise be good. Wands / ceremonials knives can roll 6% LS, so that wizzes and wds can stack 6% LS like every other class. Those are just a few starters. Make that balanced and then see what else the game needs. I'm also a fan of what blizz said about reducing the frequency of items, but making them better.
I think a lot of people that avoided D2 pvp probably won't understand but I totally agree. Even without the xpac additions D2 classic still had a ton of thinking behind it.
I can attest to the PvP itemization diversity from the perspective of a GM Melee dueler. The options were many, the diversity of effects was overwhelming.
Depending on my opponent and his gear, I could choose from a convoluted assortment of gears, all offering varying affects on my opponent. What was most profound was the effectiveness of lower level items, even at the highest level of competition. Angelics, G-Face etc....
Keep in mind that I participated in player organized tournaments. Organized by various guilds, complete with prizes etc.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
I am excited and you're exactly 100% correct. It won't take much to push this thing over the proverbial hump. It's the amount of time passed that wears on me, such a long time now to wait for something I took for granted would be included at launch some 14+ months ago.
Frustration aside, the light at the end of the tunnel is apparent.
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Besides you do know that what you brought up is a lot right, even tho you left alot out.? Especially when you consider all the + skill items attached to it. So much diversity and depth to how the skills and items come together for each class. In D3, its pretty basic in that every setup follows the same rules.
Im not really buying into the whole less is more concept.
To start, you actually didn't prove D2 had better itemization.
Secondly, you just proved my point; D2 had the illusion of itemization because you didn't NEED to 'stack crit' or, in my argument, you didn't need to have BiS gear to beat the hardest part of the game. Like I said, if the 'hardest' mode of D3 was MP2, then D3 would have the illusion of itemization because everyone could wear pretty much whatever gear they wanted.
You're very right on the side that D2 had more dropped items; I absolutely made the argument that more dropped items would help D3's itemization, such as more gems, jewels, runes, charms, ect.
I however was commenting on JUST the affix part of gear, which D2 didn't do better. Runewords outshone almost everything where applicable, and there were set-in-stone BiS pieces that made everything else in that slot obsolete. The difference is what I just stated above; You could out-level the content and be so OP that it didn't matter what gear you chose in the end in D2. That doesn't mean D2 had actual better itemization.
With all due respect, I find the above statements to be preposterous.
Let's start with the most OP and diverse affix that D2 offered; +(1) or (2) to All Skills.
This affix, unlike D3's + to main stat, doesn't just boost damge, rather, all the dynamics of all skill affects are boosted by a drastic percentage.
There's one huge leap over D3 itemization.
Cannot Be Frozen. This D2 affix allowed players the choice to not just mitigate (as seen with % reduction to CC affects in D3) but rather ignore the Frozen affix altogether.
No such affix is available in D3.
Ethereal, a quandary posing affix that relegated an item to a whole different item type. Boosting the items inherent abilities by a great deal. However, requiring a very rare rune to utilize. As well, to use such items, one needed to utilize the socket for a Zod to preserve the item for use. Unless said item had an inherent affix of self repair, of course. Which is in and of itself another great affix offered that made items which did spawn as ETH even more valuable.
No such item is available in Diablo 3
Horadric Cube;
Wow....where do I start with this itemization tool? This tool allowed players to finagle and manipulate most item types to a tune of seemingly endless variety. Socketing, buffing and changing items in a gambling, random fashion. End-game bliss, and one of the most ingenious advents ever witnessed within the ARPG genre.
Diablo 3 has no such tool. They shit-canned the Cube. Shame on them.
Charms;
Allows the players to buff any and all avenues of the character sheet.
Diablo 3 has no such item class.
Jewels;
Like gems in Diablo 2/3, the jewel offered the player a manner of manipulating any and all attributes of the character sheet. Diablo 3 has only 1 comparable item type, 4 types of gems. Whereas D2 had 6 (i think?) types of gems and a literally endless variety of jewels to be used in the same manner as gems, only, they had unending variation.
Runes;
Could be used to create new items. As well, used as a stand alone socket, they added to the choices for the utilization of a socket from 6 to something numbered well in the dozens.
Diablo 3 has only 4 means of use for sockets. Diablo 2 had ....well I can't count that high.
But you're gonna sit there and pretend all of this was an "illusion"? C'MON MAN......be honest at least. Perhaps next you shall ask me to prove how wet is water?
This is all off the top of my head in reference to a game I haven't played in 4 years. There's more, much more.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Like I just said, we are arguing two different things here. I have never said D3 has better dropped items. D3 BADLY needs new things to look for besides just weapons and armor; Charms, runes, jewels and more gems to start. D2 did this better obviously, because it had them.
What I have said though, and I'll say it again, is that D2's affixes and it's 'itemization' (and I'm just referring to it's affixes, stats, and BiS items) was just as lacking as D3. Being BiS meant using almost the same exact gear no matter your class. Runewords and usually just 1 unique out of the slot were just not comparable to the rest because of how good they were. The EXACT same problem that's in D3 right now.
And again (sorry to everyone who's going to have read this for the 3rd time) the only reason you could pick out almost whatever gear you wanted and still beat the hardest part of the game without the need FOR the BiS gear, is because D2's hardest part was still really easy. You didn't HAVE to max edps / ehp in order to do completely mind numbing Baal runs. In D3, the hardest part is MP10 which requires you have near perfect BiS gear in every slot to be able to farm efficiently.
Unfortunately because of this current state in D3, choice in gear is extremely limited if you want to farm the hardest part, which most players probably want to do. I've already listed earlier exactly what I think would help alleviate this problem in terms of more dropped items, normalized legendary weapon DPS, more damage increasing affixes, fixes on some current defensive affixes, increasing the legendary pool at inferno to inlcude all legendaries, and the introduction of actually useful / awesome / game-changing unique affixes to every legendary.
TLDR; We are again arguing two different things. To put it short, I'm arguing that D2 did NOT have the ideal itemization. They may have had more dropped items (which I would love in D3) but that != good 'itemization', as far as affixes and stat ranges go.
Also, easy is relative, since you can raise the difficulty with /player X.
The root of the problem with 'itemization' is that people feel they are pigeon-holed into a very small pool of gear that will get them through the content and allow them to farm efficiently.
Why do they feel that way? Because on D3's harder difficulties, you have to meet certain defensive / offensive stat levels to be able to survive / kill in a timely manner. This was also true of D2, but the difficulty (of which I'm talking about numbers here, so it's not subjective) of D2 in terms of monsters HP and their damage, was easily overcome by just being level 85 + and having medium valued gear. This means you can pick from a much larger pool of items which ones you want to use, which is what a lot of D3 players want. I know I personally want to be able to equip a wizardspike because it's cool on my Wizard. But that's not going to provide NEAR as much damage as a high end EF or the like.
So, again, to support my one arguing point; D2 did not have better itemization.
Ideas like these are what need to be going through the devs heads.
Things are getting a bit convoluted here. You're explaining that D2 had "more dropped items". I think a better way to term this is to say; D2 had more item types, OR, more useful item types. i.e. Charms, Jewels, Runes, Socketed whites/Greys, Etherals, (Blues in some cases).
These item types allowed the available affixes which affect the character sheet to have greater potency than what we see with D3. As well, more variation and wider gear choices to achieve desired goals.
Example; I didn't need to make sure that my armor, helm belt etc had vitality on them to reach a desired life-amount goal. I could choose whatever gears I wanted, ignoring vita on these pieces, because I could supplement vita from charms.
^^That is one extension of D2's far more diverse 'itemization'.
Another would be the "OP-ness" of many of D2's items, or, the overpowered-ness that MANY items had to offer. In other words, so many of D2's items were so OP, so devastatingly harsh that it made the PvM/PvE aspect of the game seem nothing more than an afterthought.
I'm going to choose a weapon and an armor from D2 to show that these items weren't only OP, but had a far more diverse range of affix affects than anything we're seeing in D3.
The first example was the favored Fortitude Armor. This (unintentionally) common armor gave extreme boosts to Damage, Defense, Resistence and Life. Sounds like D3, huh? Adding Main stat, resist, Vita and Armor accomplishes this in D3.
The reason why the Fortitude rocks over any D3 armor type, in terms of diversity, was 3-fold.
1) +(30) All Attributes. Boosts all aspects of the character sheet with one single affix.
2) Provided FCR (Faster Cast Rate/caster attack speed rating).
3) The values of the affixes were set far higher than the comparative values of "godly" D3 gears.
On to my favorite D2 weapon, The Ethereal Breath Of The Dying
This fucker, if it had titties I'd sex it.
Why does this item take a shit on even the best D3 weapon?
1) The value range of it's raw damage (inherent DPS) was ALWAYS very high. Even on the low end, it was OP. On the high end, when paired with a +15% shell, was unreal.
2) It not only offered extraordinary Attack Speed but extreme damage, Prevent Monster Heal, Attack Rating and -% to Target Defense (see also;ITD;Ignore Target Defense seen on Grief Weapons).
Just in that one sentence, in reference to two different weapons (Grief/BotD) I've listed 4 affix effects that Diablo 3 doesn't have (said affixes underlined above).
Now, people whom didn't do D2 PvP, OR, people whom weren't heavily involved in organized PvP, well....they have ZERO fucking appreciation for these not-so-subtle nuances volleyed by these 'missing' affixes in D3. In short, you wouldn't appreciate the power and diversity of these items if all you did was PvE and/or dabble frivolously in PVP.
I did. I competed with the best for years in the GM Melee Elite Zeal Duels (PalaPK Nation etc). Standard practice for the high-end EZD'ers (Elite Zeal Duelers) was to not use just 1 set of gear, but a combination of dozens of gears that could be tweaked endlessly for varying affects toward one end or another.
The only slots on an Elite PvP Zealot that were set in stone were the boots (Gores) and the belt (Dungos). Everything else was subject to change depending on your opponent.
In closing, D3 has great itemization ideas of it's own. Only, they're too few, too "Not-OP" and missing several affects/affix diversities. Good news is, if the D3 devs recognize this issue, it takes just a few turns of the proverbial screw and we CAN BE treated to even better itemization than what we had in D2.
That's not good news, it's great news. As well, so easy to accomplish. It's sad such things weren't in the game at launch., However, some day *soon, this may all be water under the bridge. But in no way shape or form am I going to say that better itemization in D2 was an illusion. It was a fact.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
I am not against or with you in this but...
Attack Rating is the worst attribute ever introduced to the Diablo universe. I'm glad it's gone. Anyway, not many monsters can dodge in D3 and no one really stacks dodge that high in their characters either.
-% Target Defense is in the same vein as "Target takes % more damage".
TBH, I'd like to see more rewards for stacking defense rather than just stacking offense on items. There should be a point that stacking enough damage reduction would make you nearly invulnerable just like there is a point where stacking enough bonus damage can make you kill anything in a matter of seconds.
They really should trademark this. Otherwise I'll claim that I've built my own spaceship that outraces those NASA snails. Won't show it to anyone though, because I think, I can still do better! Pretty sad attitude if you ask me.
On that discussion about D2s multitude of items:
Runes and Rune Words: They were great, really. If not for those cursed dupes they could have been a long term goal for players at the top of the itemization (like MP10 gear).
To get them into D3, Blizz would only need to remove sockets from the affix pool and make them a separate attribute again. That would also make way for the reintroduction of jewels.
Charms: Please do not bring them back, all they did was remove the inventory.
Horadric Cube: That's the same as crafting, the latter being potentially better because it doesn't use inventory/stash space.
On that "D2 was too easy for itemization to matter" part:
Well, you did need quite some gear to do Chaos Sanctuary on /players 8 on your own, or the uber bosses. Baal runs being trivial in a full group of duped-up chars with a map hack Sorc creating a portal to the Throne room mere seconds into the game, is not a good argument for the game being too easy.
And besides, I don't think, difficulty is that relevant for a good itemization, people will always aim for better gear just to farm faster. Both games failed at making use of the whole itemization table by granting the BiS stuff too fast. In D2 the dupes were to blame, in D3 I don't want to name a specific reason, but being able to purchase high end legs for the price of nothing surely wasn't intended
edit:
Oh, and besides, ruksak, you missed the main point of Fortitude: 300% ed
That stat didn't roll on anything but weapons or jewels (iirc). So, even four of those duped 40/15 jewels wouldn't get you to 300 if you put them in any four-socketed armor (of the Whale).
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
I didn't mention it specifically. But I did elude to it here;
Meaning to compare it to something like Inna's Pants, which gives + Main Stat, IAS and 1% Crit. Which all affect damage, but nowhere near the OP'ness of a Fortitude Armor. Nothing in D3 offers such a drastic upgrade to the character sheet.
I would like to see MANY items of the same slot offer such embellishments, with varying affects of course. Something to cause the player to have to think as to what to apply to a given slot. As I said, in D2 I did a lot of Zeal PvP. Often times it was a Leviathan or Eshaftstop that I would use for the Damage Reduction Affix, another great Diablo 2 affix that is absent in D3.
I view much of Diablo 3 itemization and character building as being a great framework, but a framework only. i.e. it leaves the player feeling as though it's incomplete. Likely because....well it is incomplete.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Yes, the difficulty of d2 has a great deal to do with the way you have to implement itemisation and skilltrees etc. When the game is beatable by a naked char with no skill or stat points spent, it does not really matter how you balance those items and skill and stat points because no matter which ones you take, it just makes things easier. That's why they had to introduce synergies to make you think at least liiiiiiiittle bit which skills you choose and to give all the not-max-rank skills at least some meaning.
Yes, you can glorify the -target defense or armor stats, but the fact is, you didnt need to pay attention to them unless you made the most nichy of all niche builds. D2 also had his hammerbuild who just spammed hammers everywhere or the summoner or the meteorb sorc, they all played exactly the same plow trough mobs style that people complain about nowadays. You had Botd cause it did the most weapon damage, and you had fortitude for + skills and extra damage. In fact, +skills were the "crit chance/crit dmg " of d2, everybody wanted it and nobody ever got enugh of it and most other stats were secondary.
tldr : d3 is harder than d2, so you cannot go with the "bring whatever you want and you will be able to beat the game " mentality from d2. Which is good. Harder game is more interesting and lasts longer.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
I didn't have to,, You proved it. I just added to it.
Also, you keep bringing up illusions and like I said,, im not buying less is more angle.
D3 may have harder monsters to deal with. But you have to remember that MP is a product of bad itemization in D3.
That's funny.. because what's happening is the opposite.
You mean like what you just typed?
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan