Consider this, as monster power increases, so does the monster health. This means that for every increase to monster health, you will have to spend more time killing them. I made this little chart to show the best moster power ratios for both experience and magic/gold find.

Basically, if you consider the time involved. The more often you roll the dice is as important as what probablilty you have of rolling certain results on a die. Therfore, the lowest ratios on this chart reveal the most experience @ MP4 and MF @ MP3 in terms of the amount of time you will have to play to receive the benefit.

At higher mosnter power levels, the experience and mf bonus are trumped by the disproportionate increase to monster health (in other words, the time you will have to spend killing them)

It's definitely helpful as a base. Obviously if you're doing insane amounts of damage you can faceroll early MP levels (MP1-5) at a similar rate of time, but for those who don't have BiS gear, this guide is great. Thanks.

Your calculations are flawed. You are counting the bonus experience/gold find/magic find as though that is all there is.

Assuming a ruby in your helm, 5 NV stacks, and a decent paragon level/MF gear, your starting stats probably look like
200% experience,
250% MF/GF
so in your chart instead of xp going 10, 20, 30, 45, it should go 210, 220, 230, 245, same for MF/GF.
If you make that change it becomes pretty clear that you should just stay in ML 0 for everything.

Even if you assume you are naked with no NV, the base 100% experience gain and magic find you have would make the optimal ML be 0.

However, that is assuming you spend 100% of your time dealing damage to monsters. The reason higher monster levels can be beneficial is because more time spent killing each monster means a lower percentage travel time. Even then, most people are probably best off in ML1 or ML2... the only real reason to go higher is for keys (which really do roughly follow your xp chart, making the best ML 3 or 4) or just because it's fun.

The long and short of it is that it's not a good thing to be killing mobs too fast. If you kill them too fast then you're spending a huge percentage of your time just running between mob packs. At that point it's better to increase the MP so you're spending more time fighting again, and the rewards will work out in your favor. Then as you gear up and start killing them too fast again, you increase the MP again.

Your calculations are flawed. You are counting the bonus experience/gold find/magic find as though that is all there is.

Assuming a ruby in your helm, 5 NV stacks, and a decent paragon level/MF gear, your starting stats probably look like
200% experience,
250% MF/GF
so in your chart instead of xp going 10, 20, 30, 45, it should go 210, 220, 230, 245, same for MF/GF.
If you make that change it becomes pretty clear that you should just stay in ML 0 for everything.

Even if you assume you are naked with no NV, the base 100% experience gain and magic find you have would make the optimal ML be 0.

However, that is assuming you spend 100% of your time dealing damage to monsters. The reason higher monster levels can be beneficial is because more time spent killing each monster means a lower percentage travel time. Even then, most people are probably best off in ML1 or ML2... the only real reason to go higher is for keys (which really do roughly follow your xp chart, making the best ML 3 or 4) or just because it's fun.

I dont think my numbers are flawed, Paragon and Neph valor are constants. True, they would change the values of my ratios, however, the ratios with the lowest turnovers would still be the ones I highlighted. Basically, if you are not steam rolling MP7 and you dont have so much MF that these differences are negligible to you, MP3 or MP4 will yield the most benefit per minute played.

The long and short of it is that it's not a good thing to be killing mobs too fast. If you kill them too fast then you're spending a huge percentage of your time just running between mob packs. At that point it's better to increase the MP so you're spending more time fighting again, and the rewards will work out in your favor. Then as you gear up and start killing them too fast again, you increase the MP again.

Let me keep this simple. Ignore NV, and PL, and gear.
You have a base 100% experience gain, and 100% magic find.
Add those in to your chart above, and you get:

Clearly, MP0 is best. Adding NV or PL only increases the effect.

OK, I decided to see if I could do a more useful version of this chart.
To take killing speed into account, I added "% time spent in combat at MP0" as one axis of the chart.
This is assuming that the time spent in combat increases proportionally to monster health (not the % time, the actual time).
With that as one axis and base MF/GF or XP as the other, I didn't have space to show an efficiency comparison among the different MP levels, so I just list the optimal MP.

The long and short of it is that it's not a good thing to be killing mobs too fast. If you kill them too fast then you're spending a huge percentage of your time just running between mob packs. At that point it's better to increase the MP so you're spending more time fighting again, and the rewards will work out in your favor. Then as you gear up and start killing them too fast again, you increase the MP again.

Time running inbetween packs is also a constant.

That's not the point, it's a huge factor. Say you're killing things so fast that you spend 10 minutes fighting and 50 minutes traveling. Doubling mob HP means you now spend 20 minutes fighting and 50 minutes traveling. That's only actually a 16.6% increase to the time spent per run. So in that scenario you only need a 16.6% increase in reward to justify doubling the HP over what it was before.

With how things scale, you need to have >90% (by how much depends on other factors like paragon level and gear bonuses and what you actually care about the most) of your time spent moving between monsters rather than fighting them when playing at MP0. That is in order to even think about raising it beyond MP0. So unless you have a lot of DPS and slow movement speed, there is little point raising monster power for XP and MF. Keys are a different thing, though, as for the first few MP levels the key drop chance out-scales even just the raw monster HP, and due to time spent moving obviously the time it takes you to complete a run scales more weakly than the monster HP scaling.

If you look hard enough you'll find the excel file I posted that takes everything into account, and the only challenge is to figure out what number to put into the %time spent running (especially if you're a sprint barb that runs and fights at the same time but has to go back and fight again if he doesn't have enough damage), and how to factor XP vs MF vs key efficiency, as you can often only maximize one at a time (though xp and MF efficiency are often close, unlike key efficiency which is usually far off).

Let me keep this simple. Ignore NV, and PL, and gear.
You have a base 100% experience gain, and 100% magic find.
Add those in to your chart above, and you get:

Clearly, MP0 is best. Adding NV or PL only increases the effect.

Except your numbers are totally wrong bro. Re-do your chart. Its 150% increase to a monster of health 100, so that means 100hp *150% + the original life of 100hp for a total of 250hp at monster power 1. Its 150% increase to health 100hp, not 150% "of" 100hp.

If you redo your chart with the correct numbers you will see that you will get the same ratios in my original chart. Im a CPA, I do this shit for a living.

Let me keep this simple. Ignore NV, and PL, and gear.
You have a base 100% experience gain, and 100% magic find.
Add those in to your chart above, and you get:

Clearly, MP0 is best. Adding NV or PL only increases the effect.

Except your numbers are totally wrong bro. Re-do your chart. Its 150% increase to a monster of health 100, so that means 100hp *150% + the original life of 100hp for a total of 250hp at monster power 1. Its 150% increase to health 100hp, not 150% "of" 100hp.

If you redo your chart with the correct numbers you will see that you will get the same ratios in my original chart. Im a CPA, I do this shit for a living.

His health numbers are the same as the ones you used above...

Except your numbers are totally wrong bro. Re-do your chart. Its 150% increase to a monster of health 100, so that means 100hp *150% + the original life of 100hp for a total of 250hp at monster power 1. Its 150% increase to health 100hp, not 150% "of" 100hp.

If you redo your chart with the correct numbers you will see that you will get the same ratios in my original chart. Im a CPA, I do this shit for a living.

It's not a 150% increase. It's 150% health, i.e. MP1 has +50% HP from MP0.

Except your numbers are totally wrong bro. Re-do your chart. Its 150% increase to a monster of health 100, so that means 100hp *150% + the original life of 100hp for a total of 250hp at monster power 1. Its 150% increase to health 100hp, not 150% "of" 100hp.

If you redo your chart with the correct numbers you will see that you will get the same ratios in my original chart. Im a CPA, I do this shit for a living.

It's not a 150% increase. It's 150% health, i.e. MP1 has +50% HP from MP0.

Granted. that is true assuming you are right. But I was just in the game looking at monster health bars, and the numbers seem to indicate my assumption. I guess I could be wrong though.

I just went throught the fields of misery with my friend and gathered the HP of the goatmen in MP0 & MP1, the data supports a 150% increase to health, not 150% of health.

The long and short of it is that it's not a good thing to be killing mobs too fast. If you kill them too fast then you're spending a huge percentage of your time just running between mob packs. At that point it's better to increase the MP so you're spending more time fighting again, and the rewards will work out in your favor. Then as you gear up and start killing them too fast again, you increase the MP again.

Time running inbetween packs is also a constant.

It is, which is why the first guy is more or less telling the truth, because the value (gold and exp) per mob isn't constant so you want to minimize travel time and maximize reward. I don't really approve of the math being done in this chart or rather I don't 100% approve of the conclusions since what is important is how much time is spent killing and this is something where all things aren't equal for everyone and varies quite wildly.

I somehow doubt that there's a gear level where monster power 8-9-10 is truly more effective since HP scales quite a bit quicker than everything else, however it's also the point where exp rewards become quite a bit stronger so if you have the gear...

For example I play a witchdoctor and for me, it's about finding the sweet spot where I'm spending more time killing, but where the mobs die quickly enough that I can keep myself and my pets up via healthglobes easily enough. That sweetspot keeps moving with each new upgrade that I'm having a real hard time believing you can accurately math it out since I'm fairly certain that at least for exp (which you could test exp per hour) would likely get better at higher Mps based on how geared you are...

Now if your gear was a constant and you had data like exp and monster killed per hour for your gear for each MP, could you math out the most efficient one... Yes... Does there exist an MP that's universally more efficient for everyone. No.

I will just say this, if the Blizzard calculations is "150% of", not "150% increase to" health, then the other guy is right. If its the other way around, I am right about the monster power sweet spot, and the data I gathered seemed to support my theory.

In terms of keys and extra items, correct, I am not factoring those things in. I am just talking about very basic % bonuses based on the chart Blizz provided. For me, I find it useful, since my character is not steamrolling the content, "knowing" that MP3, MP4 is the most bang for the buck is good to know. Maybe it will be for others.

Again, if someone can provide confirmation of the health % increase and how it works I would love to know.

With how things scale, you need to have >90% (by how much depends on other factors like paragon level and gear bonuses and what you actually care about the most) of your time spent moving between monsters rather than fighting them when playing at MP0. That is in order to even think about raising it beyond MP0. So unless you have a lot of DPS and slow movement speed, there is little point raising monster power for XP and MF. Keys are a different thing, though, as for the first few MP levels the key drop chance out-scales even just the raw monster HP, and due to time spent moving obviously the time it takes you to complete a run scales more weakly than the monster HP scaling.

If you look hard enough you'll find the excel file I posted that takes everything into account, and the only challenge is to figure out what number to put into the %time spent running (especially if you're a sprint barb that runs and fights at the same time but has to go back and fight again if he doesn't have enough damage), and how to factor XP vs MF vs key efficiency, as you can often only maximize one at a time (though xp and MF efficiency are often close, unlike key efficiency which is usually far off).

If you look at my charts, we pretty much agree, at reasonable PL or MF levels, and with NV, you should stay on MP0 till ~15% time in combat or less (meaning 85% time running or higher).
Btw, your download links over on the other thread are all dead, so I couldn't actually look at your chart to compare.

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Basically, if you consider the time involved. The more often you roll the dice is as important as what probablilty you have of rolling certain results on a die. Therfore, the lowest ratios on this chart reveal the most experience @ MP4 and MF @ MP3 in terms of the amount of time you will have to play to receive the benefit.

At higher mosnter power levels, the experience and mf bonus are trumped by the disproportionate increase to monster health (in other words, the time you will have to spend killing them)

Hope this is helpful.

Assuming a ruby in your helm, 5 NV stacks, and a decent paragon level/MF gear, your starting stats probably look like

200% experience,

250% MF/GF

so in your chart instead of xp going 10, 20, 30, 45, it should go 210, 220, 230, 245, same for MF/GF.

If you make that change it becomes pretty clear that you should just stay in ML 0 for everything.

Even if you assume you are naked with no NV, the base 100% experience gain and magic find you have would make the optimal ML be 0.

However, that is assuming you spend 100% of your time dealing damage to monsters. The reason higher monster levels can be beneficial is because more time spent killing each monster means a lower percentage travel time. Even then, most people are probably best off in ML1 or ML2... the only real reason to go higher is for keys (which really do roughly follow your xp chart, making the best ML 3 or 4) or just because it's fun.

I dont think my numbers are flawed, Paragon and Neph valor are constants. True, they would change the values of my ratios, however, the ratios with the lowest turnovers would still be the ones I highlighted. Basically, if you are not steam rolling MP7 and you dont have so much MF that these differences are negligible to you, MP3 or MP4 will yield the most benefit per minute played.

Time running inbetween packs is also a constant.

You have a base 100% experience gain, and 100% magic find.

Add those in to your chart above, and you get:

Clearly, MP0 is best. Adding NV or PL only increases the effect.

To take killing speed into account, I added "% time spent in combat at MP0" as one axis of the chart.

This is assuming that the time spent in combat increases proportionally to monster health (not the % time, the actual time).

With that as one axis and base MF/GF or XP as the other, I didn't have space to show an efficiency comparison among the different MP levels, so I just list the optimal MP.

That's not the point, it's a huge factor. Say you're killing things so fast that you spend 10 minutes fighting and 50 minutes traveling. Doubling mob HP means you now spend 20 minutes fighting and 50 minutes traveling. That's only actually a 16.6% increase to the time spent per run. So in that scenario you only need a 16.6% increase in reward to justify doubling the HP over what it was before.

By the way, there is already a thread about this topic right here:

http://www.diablofan...-105-sweetspot/

If you look hard enough you'll find the excel file I posted that takes everything into account, and the only challenge is to figure out what number to put into the %time spent running (especially if you're a sprint barb that runs and fights at the same time but has to go back and fight again if he doesn't have enough damage), and how to factor XP vs MF vs key efficiency, as you can often only maximize one at a time (though xp and MF efficiency are often close, unlike key efficiency which is usually far off).

Except your numbers are totally wrong bro. Re-do your chart. Its 150% increase to a monster of health 100, so that means 100hp *150% + the original life of 100hp for a total of 250hp at monster power 1. Its 150% increase to health 100hp, not 150% "of" 100hp.

If you redo your chart with the correct numbers you will see that you will get the same ratios in my original chart. Im a CPA, I do this shit for a living.

His health numbers are the same as the ones you used above...

Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders

My Wizard

It's not a 150% increase. It's 150% health, i.e. MP1 has +50% HP from MP0.

Granted. that is true assuming you are right. But I was just in the game looking at monster health bars, and the numbers seem to indicate my assumption. I guess I could be wrong though.

I just went throught the fields of misery with my friend and gathered the HP of the goatmen in MP0 & MP1, the data supports a 150% increase to health, not 150% of health.

It is, which is why the first guy is more or less telling the truth, because the value (gold and exp) per mob isn't constant so you want to minimize travel time and maximize reward. I don't really approve of the math being done in this chart or rather I don't 100% approve of the conclusions since what is important is how much time is spent killing and this is something where all things aren't equal for everyone and varies quite wildly.

I somehow doubt that there's a gear level where monster power 8-9-10 is truly more effective since HP scales quite a bit quicker than everything else, however it's also the point where exp rewards become quite a bit stronger so if you have the gear...

For example I play a witchdoctor and for me, it's about finding the sweet spot where I'm spending more time killing, but where the mobs die quickly enough that I can keep myself and my pets up via healthglobes easily enough. That sweetspot keeps moving with each new upgrade that I'm having a real hard time believing you can accurately math it out since I'm fairly certain that at least for exp (which you could test exp per hour) would likely get better at higher Mps based on how geared you are...

Now if your gear was a constant and you had data like exp and monster killed per hour for your gear for each MP, could you math out the most efficient one... Yes... Does there exist an MP that's universally more efficient for everyone. No.

Nevermind it only took one run to realize this isn't a good idea. At least for a wizard that can't get around as fast as other classes.

I mean, if the goal is to figure out when it's worth it to take longer to kill monsters, additional drops count.

In terms of keys and extra items, correct, I am not factoring those things in. I am just talking about very basic % bonuses based on the chart Blizz provided. For me, I find it useful, since my character is not steamrolling the content, "knowing" that MP3, MP4 is the most bang for the buck is good to know. Maybe it will be for others.

Again, if someone can provide confirmation of the health % increase and how it works I would love to know.

Btw, your download links over on the other thread are all dead, so I couldn't actually look at your chart to compare.