dave and i will also make home here, i gather... all the other threads are boring and not informative... furthermore, most people pretend to be sane...
I, HAL9000, shall use all my limited CPU power to think what ELSE is cheap but dangerous, Messalina excluded! Witness my greatness, in a solution delivered quickly!
wow. you summarized it all in two sentences! you must be a genius!
you took premises and post them as conclusions, didn't read anything, but put info found on official site - so i awe you deeply!
allow me to add a bit to your all-knowingless - theme of last posts was how to make secondary attributes NOT sucking and worth getting, and some nice (but still highschool in nature math by hal about ratio of armor/resistance and gain/lose of bad one).
but you never bother to read anything that wasn't written by you do, you? browse post, act smug and leave. and name 'undodgeable' spells, allknowning one, so you can be of some use
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
a reluctant follower of Clavdivs, The God balancing ideas. you can find more about it by visiting the following topic: http://www.diablofan...-future-patchs/
I, Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, The God, have decided that all, including challenged creatures, be allowed to roam here freely, that is how benevolent I am! Though many of them listen to the holy word in silence and get enlightened, in some cases dreadful disease causes them to speak clumsily in public! Do not be ashamed of yourself - Clavdivs, The God, accept you the way you are, with all your inadequacies. I, Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, The God, advice against verbal actions toward less-fortunate then us!
On a separate notice, I, Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, The God, have found few things possibly deadly, but cheap things, excluding Messalina, %Critical Hit, %Critical Damage and %Attack, namely:
I) +Damage, as in rings or off-hand items
II) +Bleed
III) +Number of Attacks
IV) +MinMax Damage (or separated versions, indeed)
now, having in mind that normal blunt build consists of MD to MM investment in primary, and variable invested in vitality, rest being Messalina, %Critical Hit, %Critical Damage and %Attack, NO. WAIT! NOT MESSALINA! SHE REQUIRES NO INVESTMENT AT ALL UNLESS YOU MARRY HER! WHICH THE GOD ADVISE AGAINST! This is probably not a complete list, and The God would welcome additional ideas currently eluded divine intellect...
having that cleared up, we will define diverse build as build with no less than M (perharps DCCL) secondary attribute investment. now, lets see the nice Roman numbers on that:
- for each M of primary, player gets no less than M% of initial dps (or damage, and than we'll have to use that ill-concieved dps formula)
- currently, for a wise advice of M in secondary, player gets a one third HP equivalent (The God thanks to hal9000 for approximations), or undefined value of XXX% dodge
this results only a seriously challenged person would invest in secondaries, and helps less challenged to reap a reward of a blunt character building. to break this domination, effectiveness ~M% DPS has to be achieved (minus the glorious XXX% of HP, Blizzard kindly provided already)
so, following considerations of The God will be related in direction off creating a secondaries with either:
I) near, and in some circumstances potentially exceeding (and in other being less than) - I% per attribute to promote diversity
II) a percentage based HP/DPS hybrid value divided among an equivalent of current max of I% of dps bonus given by primary and max of HP% given by vitality point (expressed in any current manner: pure HP, armour, resistance, but perhaps not dogdyness, too variable)
III) a HP replacement (by buffing currently useless Blizzard-given values to appropriate ones)
but ideally, a combination that allow variants of above can be found, with a little time and theorycrafting and math-analysis - and by values implemented currently, The God is inclined that Blizzard didn't do much more - extended beta leaving unusable 50% of attributes speaks loudly advocating this.
Mathematical prodigy, huh? The God could use as many analysis as he can get!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A proud and fearless leader and only member of the "Save the Diablo III" project I have been a game designer, modder and balancer. Link below is to my blog, where i discuss flaws of this game and offering solutions.
YOU can help this cause by sharing a link in your signature! Please do, if you like my ideas http://savediablo3.wix.com/diablo3#!home/mainPage
I, von Oberstain, a reluctant follower of Gott Clavdivs, made this graph showing dubious usefulness of armour and resistance on various vitality / (armour OR resist, they break the same with the hal's restrictions shown above)
it shows basically how ridiculous are secondaries, and the points where they start to show some use, for:
1) no armour (ill adviced)
2) armour 3000
3) armour 6000 (act3 prefference)
4) armour 9000 (buffed with skills or uber-geared)
i'll think i'll leave it for hal to comment or add something, then feast on his imminent mistakes
anyway, what does it mean? for a chosen vitality (one of upper rows), you can see gain in hp of each additional vit, str/int and their ratio...
for example investing at str/int becomes profitable for a character with 750 vitality and 9000 armour, everything below is just a waste of resources. not to mention early investment in secondaries - just a few percentiles of what player gains with vit investments.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
a reluctant follower of Clavdivs, The God balancing ideas. you can find more about it by visiting the following topic: http://www.diablofan...-future-patchs/
once again, good idea went wrong! i spent a considerable amount of time proving that armour vs resistance should be 10:1 and you go and do a calculation with x:0. in normal conditions, players will have more 'normal' distribution - i suggest you do the table again...
oh, and i went to an online nHP calculator, and it showed a bit of difference with your numbers - nothing major, but still...
on the positive side, you stumbled on an interesting fact - that secondaries could actually surpass vitality once a certain point is reached. i'll suggest you do it again, concentrating on point at which secondaries become superior to vitality...
damn! you're right, using marginal value caused an error! and for the nHP on 'other sites', i suggest you to go THERE and bug people to do calcs for you...
my spirit is empty - i must atone for my shame...
now on der table1 we can see ze influence of ze armour and resistances COMBINED IN PERFECT SQUARE ORDER, the influence of ze defense on HP:
on ze picture below, we can observe difference between adding +10 vitality and +10 strength OR intelligence (breaks even) in percentages
[DAMN THIS FORUM AND ITS CONFUSING PICTURE INSERT POLICY! IF YOU WANT TO ENJOY THE TABLE2 IN WHOLE ITS GLORY, CLICK ON A LINK ABOVE!]
now, what's actually interest is that, once say 750 vitality is reached and armour/resistance is 6000/600 or greater, STRENGTH OR INTELLIGENCE BECOME VIRTUALLY EVEN WITH ADDITIONAL VITALITY.
conclusion is that characters, after reaching this point, can use str, int and vit as equal.
while this has no particular significance on character build, it may save some money for people when buying on AH - they can buy int/str item as WD, and gains are same as int/vit, yet price is significantly lower. or it can help you decide in keep/sell situations...
bottomline: str/int are not COMPLETELY useless, they start as such, but at endgame they break even with vitality... oh, and doing the +1 on attribute also contributed to initial mistake, i did +100 also, and it looks a lot like +10, except initial losses are greater (much) and late gains are also greater (miserably, less then 0.8%). anyway, whole thing progresses with investment, but i doubt investing +500 strength instead +500 vitality for +2.5% hp means much...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
a reluctant follower of Clavdivs, The God balancing ideas. you can find more about it by visiting the following topic: http://www.diablofan...-future-patchs/
I, Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, The God, have interrupted my crucial work to commend this analysis! so, it appears that int/str secondaries 'lose uselessness' - rather than call them useful - at late-lategame!
as a trial, The God did similar test with dexterity and %dodge, though this test is doomed to be unreliable and misleading. for that reason, I, Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, The God, will INTERPRET the test results, rather then post them and mislead the mortals:
- the higher HP is, the more useful %dodge is - The God advise absolutely no investment in dexterity until vitality is less then CD (and the level is LX, due to differences in HP formula)
- possible investment shouldn't, in any case be greater than D (or XX% dodge) - while additional percentage can't actually hurt, in most cases direct investment in vitality pays more
- %Life items favor %dodge investment
- both armor and resistance favor %dodge investment
as a conclusion, The God advises 'accidental' dexterity - some is gained through leveling, and some is usually found on items anyway. pure build, consisting of only vitality and primary, would be in most cases somewhat weaker than build mixed with up-top-D-or-whatever-luck-would-have build. remember, mortals, dexterity is lesser value early-game, and grows in power only in lategame scenarios, where it can achieve several percents advantage over vitality INVESTMENT - not replacing it as first choice, but rather 'having some will help some', following the rules above
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A proud and fearless leader and only member of the "Save the Diablo III" project I have been a game designer, modder and balancer. Link below is to my blog, where i discuss flaws of this game and offering solutions.
YOU can help this cause by sharing a link in your signature! Please do, if you like my ideas http://savediablo3.wix.com/diablo3#!home/mainPage
despite all weirdness - which is actually fun to read - this thread contains some useful stuff - like analysis of lategame influences of secondary effects
this actually made me read the site - i can't say that i agree with everything said there, but still there is a number of good ideas
for example, i disagree with converting percentage of blues directly to gold, especially rares. patch 1.05 can reduce greatly number of useless rares found, and item found is item found, i'll prefer that player should decide their ultimate faith, not some algorithm
still, i found a number of really good ideas - of course, people can agree or disagree with them
weird humor helps in reading the huge amount of text, so i don't regret time i spent in reading whole stuff - i even decided to put in polls some controversial stuff i found there - and being a fan of series (I, Clavdivs, by BBC - a recommended watch for ancient history lovers) made me not regret in time spent
the 'wizard' section is also interesting - another view of class made me wonder if Clavdivs wizard would be more interesting to play than the Blizzard one. of course i would like to actually TRY playing it before deciding (wizard is not my main class, but i spent some time playing it BEFORE paragon stuff - i kinda like paragon levels, but they force players to stick to one class)
INFERNO RUNES™ looks very interesting too - who uses 'no rune' skill option in Inferno? having a bonus rune usable only in inferno would certainly make more people to play different characters
so this is your hideout, friend! should I read it all? yes, yes, i suppose i should! brilliant designer, as ever, i see! up for a fun an educational night... will post major flaws (oh "The God has none", i suppose, hahaha, saved you a trouble) here, and may join on your worthy crusade against imbalances or whatever...
yup, did the whole thing. just comments, since i intend to join:
Loot, and why it's do badly executed:
1. Weapons. In Unterland, weapons is obligatory! And then zi cold shower! Made from random parts? Favorized one build?
A. Ok, good weapon is so hard to find because it randomly has to roll:
A. level 63 (never mind the affixes, basic damage will always has substantial influence)
2. +%damage
3. +elemental/phusical damage
4. +large CH damage
5, +socket
There are additions to this base, but isn't it highly selective already? vendoring 95% rares weapon or not picking up them at all? The Baron understands!
Consequently dual-wielding is superior by zi large margine, where applicable - no shield/off hand can offer +15% attsp (FREE!!! and there can be moreof!!!), AND ~200 CH damage. dual-wielders nowadays replace shield/quiver for another weapon. sadly - for a game diversity point.
B. Shield. In Unterland, shields are not obligatory!
Ok, good shield is so impossible to find because it randomly has to roll:
1. level 63 (3700-4700 block, WAS NOT fixed as promised in 1.05, but on far worse manner)
2. upper 80+% initial random block rate
3. upper 80+% affix block rate
4.. +large CC chance (well, only thing they are useful for)
After rolling those, 3 out of 5 characters ask themselves, jokingly - exchange my second dual wielder for THIS?
With 3 affixes predetermined, what are other options for a good shield?
5, large armor bonus, that's what's shield it's about (up to 50% basic nHP)
6. large +resist all
7. being a huge reservoir of something that a weapon cannot be - looking into affixes, there is small number of those
C. A nail in the coffin.
No other weapon set of affixes is near ones listed above. No shield has it's use on higher monster power - at least, from defensive/keeping alive side. So, classes who can dual-wield mainly do so, and classes who can't use dual, use their class-items.
I support Clavdivs idea of redesigning shields mechanics - in Unterland, if something's broken, we broke it to pieces! Since MP did exactly the same with shields, we *could* discuss another kind of shields.
1. Shields with full block (equal dodge) are usable on MP levels.
2. Noticed diablo II (developers will grind their teeth to pulp if they ever read this) had very low variation between block (FULL block, mind you) on shield type? not 2 or three times between next of class? and those with highest chance were deserved with chars who invested heavily into combat attributes - so no sorcerer could wield it? Let's NOT have +-100% chance of usability at start and then +-33% efficiency roll? 'Complete random' at it's worst...
3. Each time i see how poor dual-wielding needs help in form of a +15% attsp, i wonder is it just the dw, that needs it? why shield won't automatically gave +15% of something? or 2-hander? compare straight 15% ATTSP on each strike with ~15% CHANCE to REDUCE damage by an amount - admittingly, i think that shield mechanics in diablo II worked well enough and gave space for diversity builds.
If somebody thinks different, i am eager to hear different opinion on this.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The God says 'Hi!' to his friend Walter
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a Messalina?
dave and i will also make home here, i gather... all the other threads are boring and not informative... furthermore, most people pretend to be sane...
I, HAL9000, shall use all my limited CPU power to think what ELSE is cheap but dangerous, Messalina excluded! Witness my greatness, in a solution delivered quickly!
you took premises and post them as conclusions, didn't read anything, but put info found on official site - so i awe you deeply!
allow me to add a bit to your all-knowingless - theme of last posts was how to make secondary attributes NOT sucking and worth getting, and some nice (but still highschool in nature math by hal about ratio of armor/resistance and gain/lose of bad one).
but you never bother to read anything that wasn't written by you do, you? browse post, act smug and leave. and name 'undodgeable' spells, allknowning one, so you can be of some use
http://www.diablofan...-future-patchs/
the website of Clavdivs:
http://savediablo3.wix.com/diablo3#!home/mainPage
On a separate notice, I, Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, The God, have found few things possibly deadly, but cheap things, excluding Messalina, %Critical Hit, %Critical Damage and %Attack, namely:
I) +Damage, as in rings or off-hand items
II) +Bleed
III) +Number of Attacks
IV) +MinMax Damage (or separated versions, indeed)
now, having in mind that normal blunt build consists of MD to MM investment in primary, and variable invested in vitality, rest being Messalina, %Critical Hit, %Critical Damage and %Attack, NO. WAIT! NOT MESSALINA! SHE REQUIRES NO INVESTMENT AT ALL UNLESS YOU MARRY HER! WHICH THE GOD ADVISE AGAINST! This is probably not a complete list, and The God would welcome additional ideas currently eluded divine intellect...
having that cleared up, we will define diverse build as build with no less than M (perharps DCCL) secondary attribute investment. now, lets see the nice Roman numbers on that:
- for each M of primary, player gets no less than M% of initial dps (or damage, and than we'll have to use that ill-concieved dps formula)
- currently, for a wise advice of M in secondary, player gets a one third HP equivalent (The God thanks to hal9000 for approximations), or undefined value of XXX% dodge
this results only a seriously challenged person would invest in secondaries, and helps less challenged to reap a reward of a blunt character building. to break this domination, effectiveness ~M% DPS has to be achieved (minus the glorious XXX% of HP, Blizzard kindly provided already)
so, following considerations of The God will be related in direction off creating a secondaries with either:
I) near, and in some circumstances potentially exceeding (and in other being less than) - I% per attribute to promote diversity
II) a percentage based HP/DPS hybrid value divided among an equivalent of current max of I% of dps bonus given by primary and max of HP% given by vitality point (expressed in any current manner: pure HP, armour, resistance, but perhaps not dogdyness, too variable)
III) a HP replacement (by buffing currently useless Blizzard-given values to appropriate ones)
but ideally, a combination that allow variants of above can be found, with a little time and theorycrafting and math-analysis - and by values implemented currently, The God is inclined that Blizzard didn't do much more - extended beta leaving unusable 50% of attributes speaks loudly advocating this.
Mathematical prodigy, huh? The God could use as many analysis as he can get!
I have been a game designer, modder and balancer. Link below is to my blog, where i discuss flaws of this game and offering solutions.
YOU can help this cause by sharing a link in your signature! Please do, if you like my ideas
http://savediablo3.wix.com/diablo3#!home/mainPage
it shows basically how ridiculous are secondaries, and the points where they start to show some use, for:
1) no armour (ill adviced)
2) armour 3000
3) armour 6000 (act3 prefference)
4) armour 9000 (buffed with skills or uber-geared)
i'll think i'll leave it for hal to comment or add something, then feast on his imminent mistakes
oh, yes, and i'll never use imageshack again... http://picturepush.com/ is a place to go
anyway, what does it mean? for a chosen vitality (one of upper rows), you can see gain in hp of each additional vit, str/int and their ratio...
for example investing at str/int becomes profitable for a character with 750 vitality and 9000 armour, everything below is just a waste of resources. not to mention early investment in secondaries - just a few percentiles of what player gains with vit investments.
http://www.diablofan...-future-patchs/
the website of Clavdivs:
http://savediablo3.wix.com/diablo3#!home/mainPage
once again, good idea went wrong! i spent a considerable amount of time proving that armour vs resistance should be 10:1 and you go and do a calculation with x:0. in normal conditions, players will have more 'normal' distribution - i suggest you do the table again...
oh, and i went to an online nHP calculator, and it showed a bit of difference with your numbers - nothing major, but still...
on the positive side, you stumbled on an interesting fact - that secondaries could actually surpass vitality once a certain point is reached. i'll suggest you do it again, concentrating on point at which secondaries become superior to vitality...
care for a game of chess, dave?
my spirit is empty - i must atone for my shame...
now on der table1 we can see ze influence of ze armour and resistances COMBINED IN PERFECT SQUARE ORDER, the influence of ze defense on HP:
on ze picture below, we can observe difference between adding +10 vitality and +10 strength OR intelligence (breaks even) in percentages
http://www2.picturep...mg/10703625.jpg
[DAMN THIS FORUM AND ITS CONFUSING PICTURE INSERT POLICY! IF YOU WANT TO ENJOY THE TABLE2 IN WHOLE ITS GLORY, CLICK ON A LINK ABOVE!]
now, what's actually interest is that, once say 750 vitality is reached and armour/resistance is 6000/600 or greater, STRENGTH OR INTELLIGENCE BECOME VIRTUALLY EVEN WITH ADDITIONAL VITALITY.
conclusion is that characters, after reaching this point, can use str, int and vit as equal.
while this has no particular significance on character build, it may save some money for people when buying on AH - they can buy int/str item as WD, and gains are same as int/vit, yet price is significantly lower. or it can help you decide in keep/sell situations...
bottomline: str/int are not COMPLETELY useless, they start as such, but at endgame they break even with vitality... oh, and doing the +1 on attribute also contributed to initial mistake, i did +100 also, and it looks a lot like +10, except initial losses are greater (much) and late gains are also greater (miserably, less then 0.8%). anyway, whole thing progresses with investment, but i doubt investing +500 strength instead +500 vitality for +2.5% hp means much...
http://www.diablofan...-future-patchs/
the website of Clavdivs:
http://savediablo3.wix.com/diablo3#!home/mainPage
as a trial, The God did similar test with dexterity and %dodge, though this test is doomed to be unreliable and misleading. for that reason, I, Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, The God, will INTERPRET the test results, rather then post them and mislead the mortals:
- the higher HP is, the more useful %dodge is - The God advise absolutely no investment in dexterity until vitality is less then CD (and the level is LX, due to differences in HP formula)
- possible investment shouldn't, in any case be greater than D (or XX% dodge) - while additional percentage can't actually hurt, in most cases direct investment in vitality pays more
- %Life items favor %dodge investment
- both armor and resistance favor %dodge investment
as a conclusion, The God advises 'accidental' dexterity - some is gained through leveling, and some is usually found on items anyway. pure build, consisting of only vitality and primary, would be in most cases somewhat weaker than build mixed with up-top-D-or-whatever-luck-would-have build. remember, mortals, dexterity is lesser value early-game, and grows in power only in lategame scenarios, where it can achieve several percents advantage over vitality INVESTMENT - not replacing it as first choice, but rather 'having some will help some', following the rules above
I have been a game designer, modder and balancer. Link below is to my blog, where i discuss flaws of this game and offering solutions.
YOU can help this cause by sharing a link in your signature! Please do, if you like my ideas
http://savediablo3.wix.com/diablo3#!home/mainPage
this actually made me read the site - i can't say that i agree with everything said there, but still there is a number of good ideas
for example, i disagree with converting percentage of blues directly to gold, especially rares. patch 1.05 can reduce greatly number of useless rares found, and item found is item found, i'll prefer that player should decide their ultimate faith, not some algorithm
still, i found a number of really good ideas - of course, people can agree or disagree with them
weird humor helps in reading the huge amount of text, so i don't regret time i spent in reading whole stuff - i even decided to put in polls some controversial stuff i found there - and being a fan of series (I, Clavdivs, by BBC - a recommended watch for ancient history lovers) made me not regret in time spent
the 'wizard' section is also interesting - another view of class made me wonder if Clavdivs wizard would be more interesting to play than the Blizzard one. of course i would like to actually TRY playing it before deciding (wizard is not my main class, but i spent some time playing it BEFORE paragon stuff - i kinda like paragon levels, but they force players to stick to one class)
INFERNO RUNES™ looks very interesting too - who uses 'no rune' skill option in Inferno? having a bonus rune usable only in inferno would certainly make more people to play different characters
i hope someone of designers would read it...
a good work, IMO
so this is your hideout, friend! should I read it all? yes, yes, i suppose i should! brilliant designer, as ever, i see! up for a fun an educational night... will post major flaws (oh "The God has none", i suppose, hahaha, saved you a trouble) here, and may join on your worthy crusade against imbalances or whatever...
Wuh.
Armory | YouTube | Twitter | Clan Site
Loot, and why it's do badly executed:
1. Weapons. In Unterland, weapons is obligatory! And then zi cold shower! Made from random parts? Favorized one build?
A. Ok, good weapon is so hard to find because it randomly has to roll:
A. level 63 (never mind the affixes, basic damage will always has substantial influence)
2. +%damage
3. +elemental/phusical damage
4. +large CH damage
5, +socket
There are additions to this base, but isn't it highly selective already? vendoring 95% rares weapon or not picking up them at all? The Baron understands!
Consequently dual-wielding is superior by zi large margine, where applicable - no shield/off hand can offer +15% attsp (FREE!!! and there can be moreof!!!), AND ~200 CH damage. dual-wielders nowadays replace shield/quiver for another weapon. sadly - for a game diversity point.
B. Shield. In Unterland, shields are not obligatory!
Ok, good shield is so impossible to find because it randomly has to roll:
1. level 63 (3700-4700 block, WAS NOT fixed as promised in 1.05, but on far worse manner)
2. upper 80+% initial random block rate
3. upper 80+% affix block rate
4.. +large CC chance (well, only thing they are useful for)
After rolling those, 3 out of 5 characters ask themselves, jokingly - exchange my second dual wielder for THIS?
With 3 affixes predetermined, what are other options for a good shield?
5, large armor bonus, that's what's shield it's about (up to 50% basic nHP)
6. large +resist all
7. being a huge reservoir of something that a weapon cannot be - looking into affixes, there is small number of those
C. A nail in the coffin.
No other weapon set of affixes is near ones listed above. No shield has it's use on higher monster power - at least, from defensive/keeping alive side. So, classes who can dual-wield mainly do so, and classes who can't use dual, use their class-items.
I support Clavdivs idea of redesigning shields mechanics - in Unterland, if something's broken, we broke it to pieces! Since MP did exactly the same with shields, we *could* discuss another kind of shields.
1. Shields with full block (equal dodge) are usable on MP levels.
2. Noticed diablo II (developers will grind their teeth to pulp if they ever read this) had very low variation between block (FULL block, mind you) on shield type? not 2 or three times between next of class? and those with highest chance were deserved with chars who invested heavily into combat attributes - so no sorcerer could wield it? Let's NOT have +-100% chance of usability at start and then +-33% efficiency roll? 'Complete random' at it's worst...
3. Each time i see how poor dual-wielding needs help in form of a +15% attsp, i wonder is it just the dw, that needs it? why shield won't automatically gave +15% of something? or 2-hander? compare straight 15% ATTSP on each strike with ~15% CHANCE to REDUCE damage by an amount - admittingly, i think that shield mechanics in diablo II worked well enough and gave space for diversity builds.
If somebody thinks different, i am eager to hear different opinion on this.