well, some have valid points, and some things need to be addressed, and some people dont have valid points, and some people are way the @#$$ off dont even know wtf they are talking about, so its really mixed.
This community was one of the best around IMHO. almost everyone had good discussion, lots of good thoughts being shared..ect. It was really a nice thing to see.
However, since the games release, these threads have started to show up more and more. It's sad to see, but with any fansite, its going to happen.
I agree with what you're saying here, and do forgive my brevity on this point which you put a lot of effort into, but I must take issue with the idea that the rapid degeneration of average post quality here is an inexorable road which must be traversed. I have been on some fansites for a very long time (almost ten years with the eve online community) and have not seen a spike of irrational criticism this large relative to the average population. I do think there are absolutely justifiable negative emotions at play in -some- of the threads here, but here I was hoping to narrow the discourse to the acutely repetitive, bombastic, and obnoxious.
Certainly there will be the quit threads, the "this mechanic is dumb," threads, and the "my drop luck is terrible," threads, but I think we should be very careful in meting out unjustifiable leeway to every single concern-troll (or emotionally charged rant) that comes along. My hope for this thread was to identify how those things in particular had affected the community in aggregate because I felt the atmosphere had crossed a very toxic threshold and other members had expressed similar feelings to me in private.
TL:DR SO with all that wall of text.. to me it comes down to: its not what they are posting about, its how they are posting. Those negative posts are fine (imo) IF they can just word them in a way that won't bring trolling, and that is where the trick will come in.
I agree completely and I think that the overwhelming majority of the problem is not what the post is about, but how it is said and justified (or, more accurately, unjustified). I don't want to step in and back-seat moderate at all. You won't hear me suggest any action or process. All I intend to accomplish here is airing the sentiments of the community in one place where it will not be an off-topic discussion.
Also a poll is not going to help to much here. A thread does not need to always be constructive to have a good talk going. Can be a thread just to talk/debate. Not so black and white as that. So if someone has a thought or feeling on this subject, I strongly suggest posting in this thread, and sharing that, instead of just voting.
I wasn't sure just how apropos the poll would be, but after some consideration I left it in. I may re-word it or take it out later if it proves less than fruitful to discourse.
A post does not need to provide new ideas /solutions. It can be 100% about what you don't like, as long as the topic leads to a disccustion. Maybe now the community can reply and say they agree or don't. The ones that do agree can now share ideas that they think would fix it (even if the OP couldnt)
So negative posts that don't give solutions are not bad at all. its all about how they come off in the end. So I think the above point is a good one to be looked at
I concur, but disagree that 100% negative posts can in most cases be turned around. It does happen and the posts are not bad infrequently (having one such post burn on for a while would be amusing), but en mass and carrying a strikingly similar plot line? I think you are giving your quotee a bit too much credit.
There is a remarkably easy way to spot a person who is simply not good at wording and someone who is flagrantly hostile and toxic either on purpose or by nature: posting history. Have a look at a few of the obvious names that I am not naming and you will see exactly what I mean. They aren't simply hosting a thread to air a single grievance. They are entering countless other threads to air the same grievance in or out of context. These are the things I am attempting to point out.
I agree with what you're saying here, and do forgive my brevity on this point which you put a lot of effort into, but I must take issue with the idea that the rapid degeneration of average post quality here is an inexorable road which must be traversed. I have been on some fansites for a very long time (almost ten years with the eve online community) and have not seen a spike of irrational criticism this large relative to the average population. I do think there are absolutely justifiable negative emotions at play in -some- of the threads here, but here I was hoping to narrow the discourse to the acutely repetitive, bombastic, and obnoxious.
Certainly there will be the quit threads, the "this mechanic is dumb," threads, and the "my drop luck is terrible," threads, but I think we should be very careful in meting out unjustifiable leeway to every single concern-troll (or emotionally charged rant) that comes along. My hope for this thread was to identify how those things in particular had affected the community in aggregate because I felt the atmosphere had crossed a very toxic threshold and other members had expressed similar feelings to me in private.
I totally understand what you are saying for sure.
First for the spike comment. yeah soon as the game came out, there was a massive spike of these kind of posts. There are a few reasons this could be the case
Fastest selling PC game of all time: We had such a massive jump of new people, that the spike of people who also don't like it, and the spike of people that just have a harsh posting habbit, would also jump as just as high of an amazing rate.
Diablo 3 people are passionate: A lot of us have been waiting "FOREVER" for this game, so this game is going to have some of the most passionate people around, thus when someone does not agree with them, or someone takes a post the wrong way, the post is going to get a little hostile, which makes the next one as well, which makes the next one and uhhh.
Most blizzard titles are like this: Mmo-champ, heck even sc2mapster, when the games first come out/new exp, the spike is just massive.
But yeah, the main issue imo shaggy nailed. in just it's the people. It's just about finding the line, and finding a way to make that line work. Dae has been actively thinking about this lately as well (has he pointed out)
If there was some switch to make everyone post in a none hostile/trolly way, it would be great. =P
it's just a tough situation with a lot of side issues adding to it all. I'm really really hoping 1.0.4 has an impact on it all. The posts, even on the official forums) have improved.
Users have also suggests a upvote downvote option. (I posted about this, so won't go back into it) but that would either be PERFECT ( reddit) or HORRIBLE (everyone would abuse it to no end (reddit :P))
My personal thought: I've always been for moderating the posts (the posts that are trolly/hostile) and not the thread (locking it/ deleting it).[This is what mmochamp does] that's just my thought, but sadly.. that sometimes just is not enough.
But I think I might need to stop replying for tonight, ~2am and its getting harder to write my thoughts the way I want to =/
My personal thought: I've always been for moderating the posts (the posts that are trolly/hostile) and not the thread (locking it/ deleting it).[This is what mmochamp does] that's just my thought, but sadly.. that sometimes just is not enough.
I think that is a perfectly reasonable way to go about it, although I see merit in both solutions. As I said though, my purpose here wasn't really to debate about how to moderate, but rather to allow the general populace to let their opinions be known so that whatever moderation is being considered will be better informed (not to suggest it isn't informed already, but this posts was intended as an efficient place to gather up people's views on the matter without coagulating a lot of reported posts).
My personal thought: I've always been for moderating the posts (the posts that are trolly/hostile) and not the thread (locking it/ deleting it).[This is what mmochamp does] that's just my thought, but sadly.. that sometimes just is not enough.
I think that is a perfectly reasonable way to go about it, although I see merit in both solutions. As I said though, my purpose here wasn't really to debate about how to moderate, but rather to allow the general populace to let their opinions be known so that whatever moderation is being considered will be better informed (not to suggest it isn't informed already, but this posts was intended as an efficient place to gather up people's views on the matter without coagulating a lot of reported posts).
for sure! but if people are getting bugged out about it. Knowing what they want to see happen is also going to be helpful to making it a better place if a lot of people do feel negative about it all. So trying to throw that kind of stuff out there as well That's all
I'd also like to add that I'm one of the people that defends Blizzard on here, a lot. Of course this leads to the immediate shouting of fanboy, and I get it, sure, because I'm a fan. Now that's not to say I agree with every single thing Blizzard has done. For instance I was for the change in legendaries (as I'm assuming everyone was), I didn't agree with Blizzards earlier stance on them not being able to compete with rares, and I'm glad to see that has changed.
On the flip side, I've agreed with a lot of the controversial decisions for the game, after I read Blizzard's reasoning and take on it. Another example would be the online only aspect. My very first reaction to hearing that was negative, but after reading their side of it it made sense to me. I'm not going into specifics here just because that isn't really what this thread is about, but my point is since I've defended Blizzard a lot, I'm on the other side of the fence as far as not really liking all the hate posts and troll threads. While I haven't kept count, I'm pretty positive half of my high post count is just trying to correct misinformation about the game, or turn around someones crazy, all-caps viewpoint on why I think the game isn't broken, and is very fun.
While Proletaria probably had a more core reason for this thread, I feel I'm on the same boat with the general mindset for here; It's downright exhausting to be continually reading posts and threads that are purely to hate Diablo 3. These posts that are made with zero facts, citations, quotations, actual insight and articulate personal opinions plague almost every thread. I remember first signing up for this website almost a year ago, and this community seemed for the most part pretty well put together. I mean I had to deal with proletaria's crazy left wing liberal nonsense (jk =P ) but it was fun coming here everyday to see what people were up to. Now though it's almost a game I play with myself; Let's see how many GG BLIZZ and D3 BROKEN AGAIN threads pop up after each patch / hotfix.
Well I'm getting off track, when my original goal with this post was to reiterate the reason why I agree with the OP and have the same stance; While there's really nothing I can do about all of this, and someone not liking D3 as much as I do doesn't break my world, it is frustrating to read on a constant level from a small few misguided attempts at trying to get others to hate the game as well.
If people have a problem with the game why post it on these boards at all? What is that going to do for anyone besides making them feel better because they got to vent their frustrations? If they have a problem post it on the official boards, not on unofficial boards that Blizzard may skim once a month if that.
You talk about the QQ about QQers being rude and stupid, how smart are they to whine and bitch on an unofficial forum while giving no credible feedback at all? Their opinion isn't going to get to the people that actually matter, so what is the point? That's like yelling out their window that they don't like the food from a restaurant 10 miles away. Guess what? THEY WON'T HEAR YOU!
To be clear, yes there are many trolls here as of late and in no way am I defending the inane threads they start. However, why post here if someone dislikes something about a game they have some investment in? Possibly to try and collaborate on potential solutions to present to the developer? In no way is a posted concern with no supplied constructive criticism a way of venting frustrations, more a way of trying to collectively brainstorm. For the most part posting a concern is a fruitless endeavor here or on the official forms as they have both degraded into a constant flame war that you seem to be trying to perpetuate. Proletaria is correct that the situation is slightly out of hand right now but to say that voicing a concern here is akin to your shouting out a window scenario is as myopic as the trolls you decry
This thread is a PRIME example of a thread that should be locked and the creator receive a short suspension if you were to ask my opinion.
There is simply nothing positive that can come from it. It's entire premise is ignorant of reality and the imperfect world we live in. The people posting in it are bandwagon haters who have brought absolutely nothing remotely constructive (or even anything which is able to be discussed) to the table. This is evidenced very much by a MOD who is not-so-subtly telling at least one person that it's not factual to try to guess what the exact contents of the patch notes are based just on the blogs.
This typifies much of my frustration with the forums lately. A post which is grounded in conspiracy-related theory, has no actual facts, but attempts to pass off wild and inaccurate speculation as fact and then use that to "prove" that Blizzard forced my sister into prostitution, or that D3 causes ocular cancer if you play it for more than 10 seconds per day, or that Jay Wilson is an overweight neo-Nazi who dresses up like Eva Braun and prances around town on Tuesday evenings or something else equally as ridiculous.
We should not have to tolerate such absurdities. I'm all for skepticism, but skepticism based on gut feelings and not on factual evidence is nothing more than conspiracy theories. We do not need garbage like this on these forums. It's thoroughly counterproductive. This is a perfect example of exactly why posting just to post a negative opinion is NOT generally a good idea.
I read a lot that ppl say that only the ppl that have a problem with the game will post here, the rest is enjoying the game peacefully. So, let me ask you, how many ppl do you think stopped playing D3 soon after release and didnt come to Diablofans to post about it?, because, for example, didnt care about posting about it, or didnt have the time, or just didnt speak enlighs, at all.
I bet, that way more than the ppl that did come here to post.
But hey, we are just assuming, we dont have any real statistic, not even Blizzard does.
I was just making a point about that well constructed fallacy, thats all.
(btw, I voted the second option in the poll, troll posts are non-constructive in most cases)
If people have a problem with the game why post it on these boards at all? What is that going to do for anyone besides making them feel better because they got to vent their frustrations? If they have a problem post it on the official boards, not on unofficial boards that Blizzard may skim once a month if that.
You talk about the QQ about QQers being rude and stupid, how smart are they to whine and bitch on an unofficial forum while giving no credible feedback at all? Their opinion isn't going to get to the people that actually matter, so what is the point? That's like yelling out their window that they don't like the food from a restaurant 10 miles away. Guess what? THEY WON'T HEAR YOU!
To be clear, yes there are many trolls here as of late and in no way am I defending the inane threads they start. However, why post here if someone dislikes something about a game they have some investment in? Possibly to try and collaborate on potential solutions to present to the developer? In no way is a posted concern with no supplied constructive criticism a way of venting frustrations, more a way of trying to collectively brainstorm. For the most part posting a concern is a fruitless endeavor here or on the official forms as they have both degraded into a constant flame war that you seem to be trying to perpetuate. Proletaria is correct that the situation is slightly out of hand right now but to say that voicing a concern here is akin to your shouting out a window scenario is as myopic as the trolls you decry
So making a QQ post about the game here is a way to gather ideas to present to the developer, then you say posting that stuff here or their is pointless, then you say my comparison of shouting out the window is myopic? Really?
Do you really think any of these QQ posts that DO get a decent discussion going gets related back to Blizzard? Sure, Maybe if a Blizzard employee happens to see the thread here on these boards. But saying that posting that stuff on their forums is as pointless as posting it here is a complete fallacy. At least the Blizzard forums are moderated in an attempt to keep things civil, the exact opposite of what happens on these boards.
I still fail to see how Troll/Whine posts could every be a good thing.
I've belabored the point that what we are discussing isn't the act of being critical, bur rather the specific act of regurgitating an irrefutable and illogical conspiracy. If I were to describe the threads as simply "negative," for example, I don't expect the message would be appropriately conveyed. Maybe the word "rant," is sufficient.
I know semantics are important at times, but if we could steer back to the topic; which you've both seemed to grasp from the start despite your misgivings on verbiage, I would appreciate it. If you want me to consider re-wording anything else, feel free to send a private message.
So making a QQ post about the game here is a way to gather ideas to present to the developer, then you say posting that stuff here or their is pointless, then you say my comparison of shouting out the window is myopic? Really?
Do you really think any of these QQ posts that DO get a decent discussion going gets related back to Blizzard? Sure, Maybe if a Blizzard employee happens to see the thread here on these boards. But saying that posting that stuff on their forums is as pointless as posting it here is a complete fallacy. At least the Blizzard forums are moderated in an attempt to keep things civil, the exact opposite of what happens on these boards.
I'll leave this discussion after this attempt to further express what my point was as I don't feel like derailing this too much more. Maybe I'm getting caught up in semantics here myself but it seems that you imply every concern or complaint expressed is a "QQ post" where my stance is that not the case. Moreover its always a better plan to have a solid collaboration of ideas to present to the developer by discussing them here and getting a good grasp of the issue and how it effects others before blindly charging onto the official forums. The reason is there are soo many on those forums that do nothing but troll or take up space and good ideas can easily be lost in the mire. My point about it not being to useful to post here either is due in large to the same presence of people dragging any debate or discussion into a back and forth flame war by either making some ultimatum that only fits their personal needs or by those that think because there are elements of the game we see issues with we must be "QQing" as you say. On topic, no whine posts are not helpful but we need to be aware of subtlety and not pass out labels to everyone who ever found something not to their liking
On topic, no whine posts are not helpful but we need to be aware of subtlety and not pass out labels to everyone who ever found something not to their liking
I appreciate the attempts that most of you are making here to be diplomatic, but I don't think there's an attempt here to silence opposition or label anyone who isn't 100% satisfied with the game as undesirable. With that said, I think we should not be overly hesitant to apply such a label where it fits. We should not be gracious and lend the benefit of the doubt to the extent that the most obnoxious persons have free reign to essentially spam the forums.
First and foremost we have a community here which is brought together over the enjoyment of Diablo 3. While we are behooved to listen to critics and hear the most of what everyone has to say without a filter, we are not doing ourselves any favors by letting an atmosphere of incendiary posting take over and drown out the positive guides, debates, and discussions which most of us come here for.
How do you guys feel about just general more enforcement of thread derailing? That way if there was a thread discussing a good or bad aspect of the game specifically and someone came in to just drop their opposing view for no real reason you could report that. For example is a whole thread is discussing how the current MF system isn't working well, discussing how to improve it, and someone just comes in to say "It works great. What's broke doesn't need fixing." Or if there was a thread discussing things people like about an upcoming patch and someone came in just to say "I don't like any of it, the game is still bad."
Those statements are not really trolling, because they may actually feel that way, but they're derailing the thread into a negative place.
I do understand the great importance of somewhere to discuss your current problems with the game, as well as somewhere to talk about how you like the game, and just general discussion threads. It seems like a lot of the time though we get crossover with people sort of derailing threads though.
This would however mean that threads like "Things I hate about the game." containing nothing more than "MF sucks, loot sucks, bosses suck." would be allowed and people would have to stay out of that and not derail it, so that gets messy.
I'm still sticking with constructive posts in my mind. If someone wants to talk, rant, whatever, they should at least have something in mind on what needs to be improved and how it can be improved or at least ask for discussion on how to improve it. In the last few months we've seen a lot of threads that were just "Game sucks". What I'd like to see is "This part of the game is bad." and either "This is my idea on how we could improve that." or "I can't really nail down the feeling, but does anyone else get the same feeling and have some ideas?". To post and just express pure hatred of the game invites no civility or room for discussion.
I'm here to make the forums a more pleasurable place for everyone to visit, (within reason) so don't be afraid to state what you want, or if you feel it might be taken wrong and derail the thread, feel free to PM me with ideas as well. I think most people at this point see there is something wrong, we're all just once again trying to find the line.
Keep up with the opinions, either here or you can PM me.
How do you guys feel about just general more enforcement of thread derailing? That way if there was a thread discussing a good or bad aspect of the game specifically and someone came in to just drop their opposing view for no real reason you could report that. For example is a whole thread is discussing how the current MF system isn't working well, discussing how to improve it, and someone just comes in to say "It works great. What's broke doesn't need fixing." Or if there was a thread discussing things people like about an upcoming patch and someone came in just to say "I don't like any of it, the game is still bad."
This would however mean that threads like "Things I hate about the game." containing nothing more than "MF sucks, loot sucks, bosses suck." would be allowed and people would have to stay out of that and not derail it, so that gets messy.
I don't see a problem with that because threads like that are going to come about. The issue is not their existence, but their proliferation. Having a thread 30 pages long where people verbally joust over some esoteric view of the franchise is fine. Having that contest played out in a dozen threads in several subforums is where it begins to detract from the value of the forums.
I'm here to make the forums a more pleasurable place for everyone to visit, (within reason) so don't be afraid to state what you want, or if you feel it might be taken wrong and derail the thread, feel free to PM me with ideas as well. I think most people at this point see there is something wrong, we're all just once again trying to find the line.
I never doubt your commitment to the forums and I agree we're simply at the point in time where the problems are visible, but an egalitarian solution requires time and effort to met out.
On topic, no whine posts are not helpful but we need to be aware of subtlety and not pass out labels to everyone who ever found something not to their liking
I appreciate the attempts that most of you are making here to be diplomatic, but I don't think there's an attempt here to silence opposition or label anyone who isn't 100% satisfied with the game as undesirable. With that said, I think we should not be overly hesitant to apply such a label where it fits. We should not be gracious and lend the benefit of the doubt to the extent that the most obnoxious persons have free reign to essentially spam the forums.
First and foremost we have a community here which is brought together over the enjoyment of Diablo 3. While we are behooved to listen to critics and hear the most of what everyone has to say without a filter, we are not doing ourselves any favors by letting an atmosphere of incendiary posting take over and drown out the positive guides, debates, and discussions which most of us come here for.
That was not intended to be directed at you saying that was something you were doing or pushing for. I whole heartedly agree that when shown that someone has little to no interest in discourse but simply spewing vitriol then by all means moderate away.
How do you guys feel about just general more enforcement of thread derailing? That way if there was a thread discussing a good or bad aspect of the game specifically and someone came in to just drop their opposing view for no real reason you could report that. For example is a whole thread is discussing how the current MF system isn't working well, discussing how to improve it, and someone just comes in to say "It works great. What's broke doesn't need fixing." Or if there was a thread discussing things people like about an upcoming patch and someone came in just to say "I don't like any of it, the game is still bad."
Those statements are not really trolling, because they may actually feel that way, but they're derailing the thread into a negative place.
I do understand the great importance of somewhere to discuss your current problems with the game, as well as somewhere to talk about how you like the game, and just general discussion threads. It seems like a lot of the time though we get crossover with people sort of derailing threads though.
And frankly I think that is all we could ask of you, its a fine line but there are people who take the extreme views on either side of a debate that simply hate any stance or preference that isn't their own...and yes those are the posts/people that probably should be removed
Honestly, whatever comes of it, I think it's pretty cool that you'd talk with us in public about it. That's a lot more than most would do.
My biggest objection, of late, has been topics which seem to have no real purpose other than to start a fight. I don't know how to exactly articulate what I mean. Like I mentioned before, a lot of it comes down to the fact that "Diablo is Broken" just immediately comes off as more stand-offish than "Things I Dislike about Diablo." One seems to have room for discussion and rationale, the other seems really set-in-stone that the game is a steaming pile of dogshit.
I truly worry about individual posts in threads a lot less. They're easy to report. And the report feature does put some of the onus on us forumgoers to help police the community. We're all sort of the "neighborhood watch" so to speak. But the whole threads, I find that a bit more perturbing and irritating. Much of my frustration centers around re-hashing stuff for the 23rd time that we already hashed out 22 times over the course of two weeks back a month ago, if that makes sense.
I don't know exactly how to moderate that because I happen to be a pretty big proponent of free speech myself. I just, I don't know... I'm also a proponent of tact.
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I agree with what you're saying here, and do forgive my brevity on this point which you put a lot of effort into, but I must take issue with the idea that the rapid degeneration of average post quality here is an inexorable road which must be traversed. I have been on some fansites for a very long time (almost ten years with the eve online community) and have not seen a spike of irrational criticism this large relative to the average population. I do think there are absolutely justifiable negative emotions at play in -some- of the threads here, but here I was hoping to narrow the discourse to the acutely repetitive, bombastic, and obnoxious.
Certainly there will be the quit threads, the "this mechanic is dumb," threads, and the "my drop luck is terrible," threads, but I think we should be very careful in meting out unjustifiable leeway to every single concern-troll (or emotionally charged rant) that comes along. My hope for this thread was to identify how those things in particular had affected the community in aggregate because I felt the atmosphere had crossed a very toxic threshold and other members had expressed similar feelings to me in private.
I agree completely and I think that the overwhelming majority of the problem is not what the post is about, but how it is said and justified (or, more accurately, unjustified). I don't want to step in and back-seat moderate at all. You won't hear me suggest any action or process. All I intend to accomplish here is airing the sentiments of the community in one place where it will not be an off-topic discussion.
I wasn't sure just how apropos the poll would be, but after some consideration I left it in. I may re-word it or take it out later if it proves less than fruitful to discourse.
I concur, but disagree that 100% negative posts can in most cases be turned around. It does happen and the posts are not bad infrequently (having one such post burn on for a while would be amusing), but en mass and carrying a strikingly similar plot line? I think you are giving your quotee a bit too much credit.
There is a remarkably easy way to spot a person who is simply not good at wording and someone who is flagrantly hostile and toxic either on purpose or by nature: posting history. Have a look at a few of the obvious names that I am not naming and you will see exactly what I mean. They aren't simply hosting a thread to air a single grievance. They are entering countless other threads to air the same grievance in or out of context. These are the things I am attempting to point out.
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AdministratorI totally understand what you are saying for sure.
First for the spike comment. yeah soon as the game came out, there was a massive spike of these kind of posts. There are a few reasons this could be the case
- Fastest selling PC game of all time: We had such a massive jump of new people, that the spike of people who also don't like it, and the spike of people that just have a harsh posting habbit, would also jump as just as high of an amazing rate.
- Diablo 3 people are passionate: A lot of us have been waiting "FOREVER" for this game, so this game is going to have some of the most passionate people around, thus when someone does not agree with them, or someone takes a post the wrong way, the post is going to get a little hostile, which makes the next one as well, which makes the next one and uhhh.
- Most blizzard titles are like this: Mmo-champ, heck even sc2mapster, when the games first come out/new exp, the spike is just massive.
But yeah, the main issue imo shaggy nailed. in just it's the people. It's just about finding the line, and finding a way to make that line work. Dae has been actively thinking about this lately as well (has he pointed out)If there was some switch to make everyone post in a none hostile/trolly way, it would be great. =P
it's just a tough situation with a lot of side issues adding to it all. I'm really really hoping 1.0.4 has an impact on it all. The posts, even on the official forums) have improved.
Users have also suggests a upvote downvote option. (I posted about this, so won't go back into it) but that would either be PERFECT ( reddit) or HORRIBLE (everyone would abuse it to no end (reddit :P))
My personal thought: I've always been for moderating the posts (the posts that are trolly/hostile) and not the thread (locking it/ deleting it).[This is what mmochamp does] that's just my thought, but sadly.. that sometimes just is not enough.
But I think I might need to stop replying for tonight, ~2am and its getting harder to write my thoughts the way I want to =/
I think that is a perfectly reasonable way to go about it, although I see merit in both solutions. As I said though, my purpose here wasn't really to debate about how to moderate, but rather to allow the general populace to let their opinions be known so that whatever moderation is being considered will be better informed (not to suggest it isn't informed already, but this posts was intended as an efficient place to gather up people's views on the matter without coagulating a lot of reported posts).
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AdministratorOn the flip side, I've agreed with a lot of the controversial decisions for the game, after I read Blizzard's reasoning and take on it. Another example would be the online only aspect. My very first reaction to hearing that was negative, but after reading their side of it it made sense to me. I'm not going into specifics here just because that isn't really what this thread is about, but my point is since I've defended Blizzard a lot, I'm on the other side of the fence as far as not really liking all the hate posts and troll threads. While I haven't kept count, I'm pretty positive half of my high post count is just trying to correct misinformation about the game, or turn around someones crazy, all-caps viewpoint on why I think the game isn't broken, and is very fun.
While Proletaria probably had a more core reason for this thread, I feel I'm on the same boat with the general mindset for here; It's downright exhausting to be continually reading posts and threads that are purely to hate Diablo 3. These posts that are made with zero facts, citations, quotations, actual insight and articulate personal opinions plague almost every thread. I remember first signing up for this website almost a year ago, and this community seemed for the most part pretty well put together. I mean I had to deal with proletaria's crazy left wing liberal nonsense (jk =P ) but it was fun coming here everyday to see what people were up to. Now though it's almost a game I play with myself; Let's see how many GG BLIZZ and D3 BROKEN AGAIN threads pop up after each patch / hotfix.
Well I'm getting off track, when my original goal with this post was to reiterate the reason why I agree with the OP and have the same stance; While there's really nothing I can do about all of this, and someone not liking D3 as much as I do doesn't break my world, it is frustrating to read on a constant level from a small few misguided attempts at trying to get others to hate the game as well.
This thread is a PRIME example of a thread that should be locked and the creator receive a short suspension if you were to ask my opinion.
There is simply nothing positive that can come from it. It's entire premise is ignorant of reality and the imperfect world we live in. The people posting in it are bandwagon haters who have brought absolutely nothing remotely constructive (or even anything which is able to be discussed) to the table. This is evidenced very much by a MOD who is not-so-subtly telling at least one person that it's not factual to try to guess what the exact contents of the patch notes are based just on the blogs.
This typifies much of my frustration with the forums lately. A post which is grounded in conspiracy-related theory, has no actual facts, but attempts to pass off wild and inaccurate speculation as fact and then use that to "prove" that Blizzard forced my sister into prostitution, or that D3 causes ocular cancer if you play it for more than 10 seconds per day, or that Jay Wilson is an overweight neo-Nazi who dresses up like Eva Braun and prances around town on Tuesday evenings or something else equally as ridiculous.
We should not have to tolerate such absurdities. I'm all for skepticism, but skepticism based on gut feelings and not on factual evidence is nothing more than conspiracy theories. We do not need garbage like this on these forums. It's thoroughly counterproductive. This is a perfect example of exactly why posting just to post a negative opinion is NOT generally a good idea.
I bet, that way more than the ppl that did come here to post.
But hey, we are just assuming, we dont have any real statistic, not even Blizzard does.
I was just making a point about that well constructed fallacy, thats all.
(btw, I voted the second option in the poll, troll posts are non-constructive in most cases)
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AdministratorSo making a QQ post about the game here is a way to gather ideas to present to the developer, then you say posting that stuff here or their is pointless, then you say my comparison of shouting out the window is myopic? Really?
Do you really think any of these QQ posts that DO get a decent discussion going gets related back to Blizzard? Sure, Maybe if a Blizzard employee happens to see the thread here on these boards. But saying that posting that stuff on their forums is as pointless as posting it here is a complete fallacy. At least the Blizzard forums are moderated in an attempt to keep things civil, the exact opposite of what happens on these boards.
I've belabored the point that what we are discussing isn't the act of being critical, bur rather the specific act of regurgitating an irrefutable and illogical conspiracy. If I were to describe the threads as simply "negative," for example, I don't expect the message would be appropriately conveyed. Maybe the word "rant," is sufficient.
I know semantics are important at times, but if we could steer back to the topic; which you've both seemed to grasp from the start despite your misgivings on verbiage, I would appreciate it. If you want me to consider re-wording anything else, feel free to send a private message.
I appreciate the attempts that most of you are making here to be diplomatic, but I don't think there's an attempt here to silence opposition or label anyone who isn't 100% satisfied with the game as undesirable. With that said, I think we should not be overly hesitant to apply such a label where it fits. We should not be gracious and lend the benefit of the doubt to the extent that the most obnoxious persons have free reign to essentially spam the forums.
First and foremost we have a community here which is brought together over the enjoyment of Diablo 3. While we are behooved to listen to critics and hear the most of what everyone has to say without a filter, we are not doing ourselves any favors by letting an atmosphere of incendiary posting take over and drown out the positive guides, debates, and discussions which most of us come here for.
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Wise ElderThose statements are not really trolling, because they may actually feel that way, but they're derailing the thread into a negative place.
I do understand the great importance of somewhere to discuss your current problems with the game, as well as somewhere to talk about how you like the game, and just general discussion threads. It seems like a lot of the time though we get crossover with people sort of derailing threads though.
This would however mean that threads like "Things I hate about the game." containing nothing more than "MF sucks, loot sucks, bosses suck." would be allowed and people would have to stay out of that and not derail it, so that gets messy.
I'm still sticking with constructive posts in my mind. If someone wants to talk, rant, whatever, they should at least have something in mind on what needs to be improved and how it can be improved or at least ask for discussion on how to improve it. In the last few months we've seen a lot of threads that were just "Game sucks". What I'd like to see is "This part of the game is bad." and either "This is my idea on how we could improve that." or "I can't really nail down the feeling, but does anyone else get the same feeling and have some ideas?". To post and just express pure hatred of the game invites no civility or room for discussion.
I'm here to make the forums a more pleasurable place for everyone to visit, (within reason) so don't be afraid to state what you want, or if you feel it might be taken wrong and derail the thread, feel free to PM me with ideas as well. I think most people at this point see there is something wrong, we're all just once again trying to find the line.
Keep up with the opinions, either here or you can PM me.
Thanks.
That sounds like a very even-handed solution.
I don't see a problem with that because threads like that are going to come about. The issue is not their existence, but their proliferation. Having a thread 30 pages long where people verbally joust over some esoteric view of the franchise is fine. Having that contest played out in a dozen threads in several subforums is where it begins to detract from the value of the forums.
I never doubt your commitment to the forums and I agree we're simply at the point in time where the problems are visible, but an egalitarian solution requires time and effort to met out.
And frankly I think that is all we could ask of you, its a fine line but there are people who take the extreme views on either side of a debate that simply hate any stance or preference that isn't their own...and yes those are the posts/people that probably should be removed
My biggest objection, of late, has been topics which seem to have no real purpose other than to start a fight. I don't know how to exactly articulate what I mean. Like I mentioned before, a lot of it comes down to the fact that "Diablo is Broken" just immediately comes off as more stand-offish than "Things I Dislike about Diablo." One seems to have room for discussion and rationale, the other seems really set-in-stone that the game is a steaming pile of dogshit.
I truly worry about individual posts in threads a lot less. They're easy to report. And the report feature does put some of the onus on us forumgoers to help police the community. We're all sort of the "neighborhood watch" so to speak. But the whole threads, I find that a bit more perturbing and irritating. Much of my frustration centers around re-hashing stuff for the 23rd time that we already hashed out 22 times over the course of two weeks back a month ago, if that makes sense.
I don't know exactly how to moderate that because I happen to be a pretty big proponent of free speech myself. I just, I don't know... I'm also a proponent of tact.