They didn't add Uber Tristram for a rather long time after the first expansion, yes yes? According to some quick Google searches Uber Tristram was in patch 1.11 which was released in August of 2005. Diablo 2 was released in June of 2000 and LoD was released in June of 2001. That means that your precious "endgame" that you tout wasn't actually implemented until four years after LoD. That alone makes your argument ill-informed, non sequitir, and argumentative.
For roughly four years people just played D2:LoD. No Uber Tristram. Nothing but item hunts and ladder resets to keep them interested.
Kripp's whole video shows a massive misunderstanding of the difference between MMOs and the Diablo franchise. When in the history of D2 did you ever hear anyone complaining about "endgame?" No. Why? Because that's something that has evolved only with the MMO genre. Hell, most people in EQ didn't drone on and on about "endgame."
The whiners are still convinced that all of this stuff needs to be included with the vanilla launch of D3. I don't remember people crying about nothing to do before LOD came out like you see here. I wish they'd quit D3 and leave already. +1 for you.
And shaggy if you did a.net more research you would hasn't found out ladder wasn't implemented until I believe 1.10.. People actually played it just for the grind of items.
*Edit: and by ladder I mean ladder season with the resets there was always a non important ladder in place.
So much fail in this thread talking about d2 not having an "end game"
-farm Keys
- to farm organs
- to farm uber's
Guarantee 75% of the people posting never had a good enough character in d2 to farm this world event easily.
Got your torch and your annilus yourself? <bet you didn't do that either.
Fact is Kripp's right, D2 has a ton more replayability because there was simply more to do. And he posts these videos because D2 still had content patches 5-7 years after release. Perfect time to fix things would be a content patch in 1.1.
This post wins that whole debate.
You meant to say "I agree with this post". The fact that you're on one side of the debate and deciding the outcome because someone happened to agree with you perfectly illustrates why you're ill-suited to be part of the discussion at all.
The truth is, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if some sort of "Uber X" scenario was put into D3 at some point down the road.
So much fail in this thread talking about d2 not having an "end game"
-farm Keys
- to farm organs
- to farm uber's
Guarantee 75% of the people posting never had a good enough character in d2 to farm this world event easily.
Got your torch and your annilus yourself? <bet you didn't do that either.
Fact is Kripp's right, D2 has a ton more replayability because there was simply more to do. And he posts these videos because D2 still had content patches 5-7 years after release. Perfect time to fix things would be a content patch in 1.1.
This post wins that whole debate.
No it doesn't.
They didn't add Uber Tristram for a rather long time after the first expansion, yes yes? According to some quick Google searches Uber Tristram was in patch 1.11 which was released in August of 2005. Diablo 2 was released in June of 2000 and LoD was released in June of 2001. That means that your precious "endgame" that you tout wasn't actually implemented until four years after LoD. That alone makes your argument ill-informed, non sequitir, and argumentative.
For roughly four years people just played D2:LoD. No Uber Tristram. Nothing but item hunts and ladder resets to keep them interested.
Kripp's whole video shows a massive misunderstanding of the difference between MMOs and the Diablo franchise. When in the history of D2 did you ever hear anyone complaining about "endgame?" No. Why? Because that's something that has evolved only with the MMO genre. Hell, most people in EQ didn't drone on and on about "endgame."
You must have showed up late to D2 LOD, because we were definitly complaining about needing more in D2 LOD. Finished act V with a Druid in like 75 Hours hit lvl 98 after like 100 hours and had nothing left to do except farm more characters to cap. Then patch 1.11a and b came out and all hell broke lose, people running the countess, the summoner and diablo like non stop, only to find out they didn't have what it took to solo the ubers, so they had to reroll characters who were spec'ed to kill them.
If you didn't have a smite palidin with a wepon on switch that would let you cast iron maiden you were going to be there forever. "Ill informed" -- (in the words of dave chapelle) "GET REAL SON"
I can't speak for others, so I'll just have to give my inconsequential take on this.
Yes, the content came a long while after, but the fact that pre launch Blizz were touting Inferno to be uber hard and saying it'll take players ages to clear, if they ever do it, especially on HC and then players get to grips with it and perhaps become a little jaded that this is all Blizz has for players to do "endgame.
As I said earlier, I really like this game, I just hope there is more to come (and I'm sure there will be) I just don't want it to all end too soon :/
There will be much more to this game, not to worry. If millions of people are clearing Inferno, then I'd agree there was a problem. 2 people clearing HC Inferno and a small number (of the total population) clearing SC Inferno really isn't a statistic to make a change. If Blizzard was to come out and say that there will be no expansions and no additional things to do, I could see your guys' stance on not enough to do. But there are plans in the pipeline to make sure D3 lasts a long time.
I can't speak for others, so I'll just have to give my inconsequential take on this.
Yes, the content came a long while after, but the fact that pre launch Blizz were touting Inferno to be uber hard and saying it'll take players ages to clear, if they ever do it, especially on HC and then players get to grips with it and perhaps become a little jaded that this is all Blizz has for players to do "endgame.
As I said earlier, I really like this game, I just hope there is more to come (and I'm sure there will be) I just don't want it to all end too soon :/
There will be much more to this game, not to worry. If millions of people are clearing Inferno, then I'd agree there was a problem. 2 people clearing HC Inferno and a small number (of the total population) clearing SC Inferno really isn't a statistic to make a change. If Blizzard was to come out and say that there will be no expansions and no additional things to do, I could see your guys' stance on not enough to do. But there are plans in the pipeline to make sure D3 lasts a long time.
This 100x. I will surely be sticking around to see what happens. I can't even solo act 2 inferno yet because I don't have the time to farm farm farm like I used too.
They will fix d3 to play forever and ever like they did in d2 I have faith. I just hope in the mean time they stop nerfing items, my attack speed is crying lol.
I can't speak for others, so I'll just have to give my inconsequential take on this.
Yes, the content came a long while after, but the fact that pre launch Blizz were touting Inferno to be uber hard and saying it'll take players ages to clear, if they ever do it, especially on HC and then players get to grips with it and perhaps become a little jaded that this is all Blizz has for players to do "endgame.
As I said earlier, I really like this game, I just hope there is more to come (and I'm sure there will be) I just don't want it to all end too soon :/
Yes, but seriously, the first 4 weeks were marred by some pretty amazing exploits that Blizzard didn't exactly stomp out quickly.
Not only did they let DHs and Wizs get to Act 4 in a retardedly fast amount of time, but they didn't even roll back their progress and make them earn it. That alone made far too much gear be available in far too short a period of time, which allowed other DHs and Wizs to make their glass cannon builds and join them.
Then there were the AH exploits which allowed people to make massive amounts of gold, the treasure goblin farming which clearly wasn't intended but resulted in a significant amount of risk-free loot, GF + Royal Crypts, and the rampant duping. Oh, and throw on top of that the Aspect exploits (which is one of the big reasons that uniques, in general, got nerfed in 1.0.3) and you have a huge amount of loot and gold going to a rather small slice of the population. And every "fix" was slow.
The first month of this game should have been considered a mulligan because Blizzard's inaction allowed more people to get to the "endgame" faster than they ever intended. Make no mistake that we really weren't supposed to have people "farming Act 3/4" within a month of playing. But, the exploiters are to blame for that, and we can't go back in time.
But, had Blizzard rolled back progress, or taken any sort of drastic measure against exploits and unintended methods of progression, there would have been a huge stink on the forums from the same players who are now complaining they're bored of D3 because they cheated their way through the endgame.
You cannot have your cake and eat it too. If you're going to rush through a game to be NUMBA ONE and finish first, then you're probably also going to get bored of the game before the average Joe. That's only common sense.
i wonder how many hours played he has. it has to be a lot. way way more than the average player i bet. seems like its a hardcore gamers rant about beating the game to fast. i also love the speculation about pvp.
PvP could technically provide long term motivation both directly and indirectly(doing PvE again for better gear), but as others have said, there would have to be some meaning to it. Like leagues, tournaments, ladders, whatever. Beating the crap out of the friendlist won't last over the fall.
I think PvP will be very flawed. Already in PvE gear is so much more important than skill, I see that transcending into PvP. So, the only ones that will be successful are either the few very, very skilled ones or the ones that have millions of gold or hundreds of Euros to spend.
Sure, that's a valid point, but this is part of what rpgs are about and what the real competitive games like Star Craft don't have: items.
If obtaining better items makes you more successful in PvP(like in every rpg), then many players will have all the motivation they need to continue their item hunt.
This motivation is the one thing that makes or breaks the Diablo games. The reason to farm items for. It doesn't have to be PvP but as of now, there is none. After beating Inferno, on every class, that is. So, to be fair, Blizz has plenty time to implement new goals before the majority of players feels *done* with the game. Kripp is just way ahead and predicts what would happen if Blizz decided to do nothing the next 3-6 months.
So much fail in this thread talking about d2 not having an "end game"
-farm Keys
- to farm organs
- to farm uber's
Guarantee 75% of the people posting never had a good enough character in d2 to farm this world event easily.
Got your torch and your annilus yourself? <bet you didn't do that either.
Fact is Kripp's right, D2 has a ton more replayability because there was simply more to do. And he posts these videos because D2 still had content patches 5-7 years after release. Perfect time to fix things would be a content patch in 1.1.
This post wins that whole debate.
GOD are you people fucking retarded?
That is the most ridiculous argument to the whole D2 > D3 debate I've ever read. Diablo 3 is what 40 days old or thereabouts. Diablo 2 is 13 years old. Let's compare a vanilla 40 day old game to the content of a 13 year old game with multiple content patches and an expansion.
Diablo 2 did not release with ubers (which came out in August 2005, 6 years or so after release), runes, runewords, remotely balanced gameplay or anywhere close to decent online stability. Diablo 2 did release with, far more bugs and exploits, some of which still exist after 13 years, horribly underpowered legendary items that were subsequently buffed and an economy that went to total shit as soon as duping hit.
So please enlighten me, why are you comparing an expanded, multi-content patched Diablo 2 to a basically patchless Diablo 3? Did you expect Diablo 3 to release with all the content of a vanilla game, expansion and 2-3 content patches? So many people seem to not remember even slightly how Diablo 2 was even pre-LoD at any point.
Stop comparing D3 to D2 + LoD + 6 years of content patching.
Where in that post did I even compair the two? People said d2 didn't have an end game, and it did. You hit lvl 96+ and you already had the gear to solo everything easily, what was left? Oh! they added torches and the annilus to farm farm farm. The only time I mention d3 is saying Kripp has a point with the end game in d3 being non-existant. They added another difficulty and in beta we QQ'ed that wouldn't be enough, but they didn't listen.
Where in that post did I even compair the two? People said d2 didn't have an end game, and it did. You hit lvl 96+ and you already had the gear to solo everything easily, what was left? Oh! they added torches and the annilus to farm farm farm. The only time I mention d3 is saying Kripp has a point with the end game in d3 being non-existant. They added another difficulty and in beta we QQ'ed that wouldn't be enough, but they didn't listen.
Lrn2read I didn't compair the two in that post.
You're right. You're not a moron, or anything like that - I find that stuff to be offensive even when someone says it to someone I'm disagreeing with.
But this is the problem with these forums (and even moreso the b.net forums). There is no middle ground. It's either "OMG GAME SUX H8 BLIZZ" or "OMG STFU GAME IS PURRFECT" and the amount of constructive criticism is next to nil.
You see it as "D2 had an endgame."
I see it as "D2 had an endgame which was very limited in nature and which wasn't implemented for quite a while after the first expansion."
While technically you are correct, you are leaving out information that gives context to that statement.
The fact of the matter is that we need a fuckton of class balancing before we even really start to talk about what people are supposed to do at max level. I still am of the opinion that 1.0.3 should have been what we got on May 15th, and not June 19th. The amount of bullshittery that went on in the first month was astonishing, and frankly, without that stuff there would probably be like 4 people in Act 4 right now (exaggeration to make a point), and the "endgame" wouldn't be so dried up.
That's what I blame Blizzard for, not the lack of endgame.... the fact that they didn't do anything to protect it from things like corpse flopping and death zerging.
But, at the end of the day, simply saying that "D2 had an endgame" is both correct, but factually misleading as it applies to this particular discussion. Sure D2 had Uber Tristram, but did D2 need Uber Tristram at week 6? Not that I recall. Did D2 need ladders at week 6? Probably not.
So, frankly, if Kripp were trying to make constructive suggestions for the future he'd have analyzed D2 and said "we wanted Uber Tristram faster, four years after LoD wasn't good and it stagnated the game." His suggestions have the strong overtone of "I beat it last week, so I want changes now because I'm bored" and that's equally as unhealthy for the game as the points you've made.
I mean, to make a WoW comparison, Blizzard doesn't just throw in the next raid tear after Paragon clears it. They never have, they never will. I remember Death and Taxes throwing a giant hissy fit because of how long they had to farm BT & Sunwell. What did that change? Blizzard puts content out there and they sure enjoy seeing how people get creative to plow through it, but they sure don't base their development timeline on the very top crust of players. They're looking at their statistics and seeing how progression is playing out for all their customers and trying to do their best to please us all.
So while Kripp does make some valid points (I would fully endorse a ladder system, sans ladder-specific gear, for example), I do fear that they're tinged by his perspective. He doesn't seem like he's really talking about the future, he seems like he's talking about yesterday almost.
Nerf Items? Is he stupid?They need to buff the hell out of many of the items for this game to even have a chance of being better than it's predecessor, so I'm not at all sure what he means by that?
What made the ladder unenjoyable was that you HAD TO play it if you wanted to experience the full itemization. I would be fine with a ladder so long as the non-ladder experience offered the same itemization/skills.
What he means is that it is easier to balance a game around base stats, rather than stats of items.
When you gain a level on your character those base stats should increase a LOT more than they currently do and items should have MUCH LESS stats than they currnetly do.
The game at the moment is about items, rather than character power.
There is no power in your character, other than what it is wearing. Its gone so far, that it feels a bit broken (or probably will when PVP comes along)
+1 for clarification, I misunderstood him. What he means is items with + to str, vit and dex and this is a screwy mechanic. I heard him say "nerf items" and about blew a gasket. More diverse, OP modifiers are what's need, stronger items but a way to build character attributes upon something other than arbitrary level-up auto-assignments.
Blizzard really should look into adding something similar to Path of Exile's League system. You pick your league (Normal, Hardcore, PVP, Hardcore PVP, Legacy, Ladder, etc).
- Normal would be what we have now. Including a GAH, and RMAH for players. No resets.
- Harcore would be just like Hardcore now. GAH, no RMAH. No resets. Death is final.
- PVP would allow for aggression (at the very least flagging). So just like Normal but with PVP. GAH, possiblt RMAH.
- PVP Hardcore is just like above, but death is final. Includes player looting. GAH only.
Then you could have a Ladder type League where everything is reset every 6 months. No RMAH to avoid people spending money on stuff they're just going to lose. Possibly a GAH, or if not maybe a tweak in the drop rates to compensate.
Just some random thoughts I had in the last five minutes.
Whatever you call Diablo 3 endgame, you can only call Diablo 2 endgame worse. D2 two months after launch was worse, much worse, than D3 right now and that's the only comparison you can make. If it wasn't implemented by August 2000, you can't use it in your case for Diablo 2 being better. Unfortunately, almost everything people list to show D2 was better didn't exist in-game yet, so yeah.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Anything I say can't, and won't be used against me because if they understood my point, they'd have given up theirs." -Christopher Hitchens
So long as PvP isn't broken and imbalanced (Guild Wars anyone?) than we'll have plenty to occupy us. Were it not for PvP in D2, I wouldn't have played it for very long at all. I'm sure they'll have some reward/ranking system cooked up. What I'm curious to see is how they match players/teams concerning gear ilvls DPS etc.
The whiners are still convinced that all of this stuff needs to be included with the vanilla launch of D3. I don't remember people crying about nothing to do before LOD came out like you see here. I wish they'd quit D3 and leave already. +1 for you.
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*Edit: and by ladder I mean ladder season with the resets there was always a non important ladder in place.
You meant to say "I agree with this post". The fact that you're on one side of the debate and deciding the outcome because someone happened to agree with you perfectly illustrates why you're ill-suited to be part of the discussion at all.
The truth is, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if some sort of "Uber X" scenario was put into D3 at some point down the road.
You must have showed up late to D2 LOD, because we were definitly complaining about needing more in D2 LOD. Finished act V with a Druid in like 75 Hours hit lvl 98 after like 100 hours and had nothing left to do except farm more characters to cap. Then patch 1.11a and b came out and all hell broke lose, people running the countess, the summoner and diablo like non stop, only to find out they didn't have what it took to solo the ubers, so they had to reroll characters who were spec'ed to kill them.
If you didn't have a smite palidin with a wepon on switch that would let you cast iron maiden you were going to be there forever. "Ill informed" -- (in the words of dave chapelle) "GET REAL SON"
There will be much more to this game, not to worry. If millions of people are clearing Inferno, then I'd agree there was a problem. 2 people clearing HC Inferno and a small number (of the total population) clearing SC Inferno really isn't a statistic to make a change. If Blizzard was to come out and say that there will be no expansions and no additional things to do, I could see your guys' stance on not enough to do. But there are plans in the pipeline to make sure D3 lasts a long time.
Battle.net Profile / Diablo Progress Profile
This 100x. I will surely be sticking around to see what happens. I can't even solo act 2 inferno yet because I don't have the time to farm farm farm like I used too.
They will fix d3 to play forever and ever like they did in d2 I have faith. I just hope in the mean time they stop nerfing items, my attack speed is crying lol.
Yes, but seriously, the first 4 weeks were marred by some pretty amazing exploits that Blizzard didn't exactly stomp out quickly.
Not only did they let DHs and Wizs get to Act 4 in a retardedly fast amount of time, but they didn't even roll back their progress and make them earn it. That alone made far too much gear be available in far too short a period of time, which allowed other DHs and Wizs to make their glass cannon builds and join them.
Then there were the AH exploits which allowed people to make massive amounts of gold, the treasure goblin farming which clearly wasn't intended but resulted in a significant amount of risk-free loot, GF + Royal Crypts, and the rampant duping. Oh, and throw on top of that the Aspect exploits (which is one of the big reasons that uniques, in general, got nerfed in 1.0.3) and you have a huge amount of loot and gold going to a rather small slice of the population. And every "fix" was slow.
The first month of this game should have been considered a mulligan because Blizzard's inaction allowed more people to get to the "endgame" faster than they ever intended. Make no mistake that we really weren't supposed to have people "farming Act 3/4" within a month of playing. But, the exploiters are to blame for that, and we can't go back in time.
But, had Blizzard rolled back progress, or taken any sort of drastic measure against exploits and unintended methods of progression, there would have been a huge stink on the forums from the same players who are now complaining they're bored of D3 because they cheated their way through the endgame.
You cannot have your cake and eat it too. If you're going to rush through a game to be NUMBA ONE and finish first, then you're probably also going to get bored of the game before the average Joe. That's only common sense.
Sure, that's a valid point, but this is part of what rpgs are about and what the real competitive games like Star Craft don't have: items.
If obtaining better items makes you more successful in PvP(like in every rpg), then many players will have all the motivation they need to continue their item hunt.
This motivation is the one thing that makes or breaks the Diablo games. The reason to farm items for. It doesn't have to be PvP but as of now, there is none. After beating Inferno, on every class, that is. So, to be fair, Blizz has plenty time to implement new goals before the majority of players feels *done* with the game. Kripp is just way ahead and predicts what would happen if Blizz decided to do nothing the next 3-6 months.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
Woot!!! I'm an f'ing r-tard now. Herp Derp 2+2 = 16
Where in that post did I even compair the two? People said d2 didn't have an end game, and it did. You hit lvl 96+ and you already had the gear to solo everything easily, what was left? Oh! they added torches and the annilus to farm farm farm. The only time I mention d3 is saying Kripp has a point with the end game in d3 being non-existant. They added another difficulty and in beta we QQ'ed that wouldn't be enough, but they didn't listen.
Lrn2read I didn't compair the two in that post.
You're right. You're not a moron, or anything like that - I find that stuff to be offensive even when someone says it to someone I'm disagreeing with.
But this is the problem with these forums (and even moreso the b.net forums). There is no middle ground. It's either "OMG GAME SUX H8 BLIZZ" or "OMG STFU GAME IS PURRFECT" and the amount of constructive criticism is next to nil.
You see it as "D2 had an endgame."
I see it as "D2 had an endgame which was very limited in nature and which wasn't implemented for quite a while after the first expansion."
While technically you are correct, you are leaving out information that gives context to that statement.
The fact of the matter is that we need a fuckton of class balancing before we even really start to talk about what people are supposed to do at max level. I still am of the opinion that 1.0.3 should have been what we got on May 15th, and not June 19th. The amount of bullshittery that went on in the first month was astonishing, and frankly, without that stuff there would probably be like 4 people in Act 4 right now (exaggeration to make a point), and the "endgame" wouldn't be so dried up.
That's what I blame Blizzard for, not the lack of endgame.... the fact that they didn't do anything to protect it from things like corpse flopping and death zerging.
But, at the end of the day, simply saying that "D2 had an endgame" is both correct, but factually misleading as it applies to this particular discussion. Sure D2 had Uber Tristram, but did D2 need Uber Tristram at week 6? Not that I recall. Did D2 need ladders at week 6? Probably not.
So, frankly, if Kripp were trying to make constructive suggestions for the future he'd have analyzed D2 and said "we wanted Uber Tristram faster, four years after LoD wasn't good and it stagnated the game." His suggestions have the strong overtone of "I beat it last week, so I want changes now because I'm bored" and that's equally as unhealthy for the game as the points you've made.
I mean, to make a WoW comparison, Blizzard doesn't just throw in the next raid tear after Paragon clears it. They never have, they never will. I remember Death and Taxes throwing a giant hissy fit because of how long they had to farm BT & Sunwell. What did that change? Blizzard puts content out there and they sure enjoy seeing how people get creative to plow through it, but they sure don't base their development timeline on the very top crust of players. They're looking at their statistics and seeing how progression is playing out for all their customers and trying to do their best to please us all.
So while Kripp does make some valid points (I would fully endorse a ladder system, sans ladder-specific gear, for example), I do fear that they're tinged by his perspective. He doesn't seem like he's really talking about the future, he seems like he's talking about yesterday almost.
Zero. Well, one if you consider LoD a content patch.
And that's exactly the point. D2 had zero content patches and still "lasted" for a loooooong time.
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Wise Elder+1 for clarification, I misunderstood him. What he means is items with + to str, vit and dex and this is a screwy mechanic. I heard him say "nerf items" and about blew a gasket. More diverse, OP modifiers are what's need, stronger items but a way to build character attributes upon something other than arbitrary level-up auto-assignments.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC)
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- Normal would be what we have now. Including a GAH, and RMAH for players. No resets.
- Harcore would be just like Hardcore now. GAH, no RMAH. No resets. Death is final.
- PVP would allow for aggression (at the very least flagging). So just like Normal but with PVP. GAH, possiblt RMAH.
- PVP Hardcore is just like above, but death is final. Includes player looting. GAH only.
Then you could have a Ladder type League where everything is reset every 6 months. No RMAH to avoid people spending money on stuff they're just going to lose. Possibly a GAH, or if not maybe a tweak in the drop rates to compensate.
Just some random thoughts I had in the last five minutes.
Whatever you call Diablo 3 endgame, you can only call Diablo 2 endgame worse. D2 two months after launch was worse, much worse, than D3 right now and that's the only comparison you can make. If it wasn't implemented by August 2000, you can't use it in your case for Diablo 2 being better. Unfortunately, almost everything people list to show D2 was better didn't exist in-game yet, so yeah.
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Wise ElderSo long as PvP isn't broken and imbalanced (Guild Wars anyone?) than we'll have plenty to occupy us. Were it not for PvP in D2, I wouldn't have played it for very long at all. I'm sure they'll have some reward/ranking system cooked up. What I'm curious to see is how they match players/teams concerning gear ilvls DPS etc.
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