Okay, so I'll take the obvious assumption that they're A) in it for the money, and either selling on 3rd party sites or the RMAH.
What I don't get is...doesn't Blizzard know what account gets the items directly out of the hacked account? I mean, the first time it happens, yeah, maybe they're using a patsy, but when it happens 30 times in a row...maybe ban the account and delete the items?
Or is it as simple as Blizzard not deleteing the items. In which case it seems like they're just asking for the hackers to do it.
the items arnt the issue, its the gold. People buy the gold through 3rd party sites.
If its anything like wow more then likely they are either banning people who buy gold (and locking the compromised accounts) or removing the items purchased with the gold. so they can roll back the compromised accounts.
If there was no $$$ incentive for the hackers they wouldn't do it (at least on such a "large" scale).
It has occurred to me before that if Blizzard had the tracking capability set-up, they could take the items and gold right back, no matter where they ended up and make things right. It really doesn't even seem that complicated of a system if they really wished to put a death nail in the hacking trade.
I think 5-10 years from now, hacking won't even exist like we see it today. What's needed are better proactive measures combined with an earnest retroactive tracking software method that will make the practice of hacking obsolete and no longer profitable. It will someday just be a "remember when" joke.
It has occurred to me before that if Blizzard had the tracking capability set-up, they could take the items and gold right back, no matter where they ended up and make things right. It really doesn't even seem that complicated of a system if they really wished to put a death nail in the hacking trade.
Yeah but how much data would they have to store to track the history of every gold piece in the game? I don't think it's technically feasible. Items maybe.
It has occurred to me before that if Blizzard had the tracking capability set-up, they could take the items and gold right back, no matter where they ended up and make things right. It really doesn't even seem that complicated of a system if they really wished to put a death nail in the hacking trade.
I think 5-10 years from now, hacking won't even exist like we see it today. What's needed are better proactive measures combined with an earnest retroactive tracking software method that will make the practice of hacking obsolete and no longer profitable. It will someday just be a "remember when" joke.
The problem with this is that items and gold that were stolen by hackers and/or bought through 3rd-party sites will eventually end up in the hands of legitimate players through trades, AH sales, etc. Let's say player X has his account hacked and all his gold stolen by player Y. Player Y then sells that gold on the RMAH to Player Z. In the system you propose, Blizzard will take away the gold from Player Z and give it back to Player X. That is not a fair system because Player Z bought their gold through a legitimate, in-game method, and there is no way they could get a refund for the real money they spent because the hacker (Player Y) has likely already transferred the money out of battlenet.
It has occurred to me before that if Blizzard had the tracking capability set-up, they could take the items and gold right back, no matter where they ended up and make things right. It really doesn't even seem that complicated of a system if they really wished to put a death nail in the hacking trade.
I think 5-10 years from now, hacking won't even exist like we see it today. What's needed are better proactive measures combined with an earnest retroactive tracking software method that will make the practice of hacking obsolete and no longer profitable. It will someday just be a "remember when" joke.
The problem with this is that items and gold that were stolen by hackers and/or bought through 3rd-party sites will eventually end up in the hands of legitimate players through trades, AH sales, etc. Let's say player X has his account hacked and all his gold stolen by player Y. Player Y then sells that gold on the RMAH to Player Z. In the system you propose, Blizzard will take away the gold from Player Z and give it back to Player X. That is not a fair system because Player Z bought their gold through a legitimate, in-game method, and there is no way they could get a refund for the real money they spent because the hacker (Player Y) has likely already transferred the money out of battlenet.
Which is exactly why gold should not be salable at the RMAH. This would be where it would get "laundered"...so to speak.
If it was prohibited to sell gold at the RMAH, then the gold would really only be viable for them to sell via 3rd party sites. If the gold was traceable, then they could nail the sellers and the buyers of 3rd party gold. I know it seems logistically complex, but with technology being what it may in the future, I could foresee it as a possibility.
I assume that RMAH's will become a trend with other games, and as such, software companies are going to start treating in-game gold as real assets.
It has occurred to me before that if Blizzard had the tracking capability set-up, they could take the items and gold right back, no matter where they ended up and make things right. It really doesn't even seem that complicated of a system if they really wished to put a death nail in the hacking trade.
I think 5-10 years from now, hacking won't even exist like we see it today. What's needed are better proactive measures combined with an earnest retroactive tracking software method that will make the practice of hacking obsolete and no longer profitable. It will someday just be a "remember when" joke.
The problem with this is that items and gold that were stolen by hackers and/or bought through 3rd-party sites will eventually end up in the hands of legitimate players through trades, AH sales, etc. Let's say player X has his account hacked and all his gold stolen by player Y. Player Y then sells that gold on the RMAH to Player Z. In the system you propose, Blizzard will take away the gold from Player Z and give it back to Player X. That is not a fair system because Player Z bought their gold through a legitimate, in-game method, and there is no way they could get a refund for the real money they spent because the hacker (Player Y) has likely already transferred the money out of battlenet.
Well, they wouldn't go after EVERYONE who gets stolen goods. I would imagine you'd wait a little while, log where the stolen goods go - they're probably going to hit one or two accounts. Ban those. It's possible they could use a hacked account to hold the goods until it's sold, which would suck. Or just delete the items, no matter who got it. I mean, I doubt the hackers are using the AH, it's too slow/traceable. They're probably dumping it all into a handful of accounts, then selling it on 3rd part sites. Then Blizzard could simply say "you bought it on a third party site, which is against our TOS, too luck." If people try and say "oh, someone just gave it to me" then A) at least in the US it doesn't matter how you got it, if you have stolen goods that can be proven to be stolen, you lose the goods, whether you paid for it or not, and you got a free item, but in the name of fighting hacking, sorry.
All that said, I think I saw a blue post that said they don't track items, as it would be too hard. Which is odd, I would think it would be feasible to have each item have a 5ish long list of B.Net tags on it of the last five owners.
It has occurred to me before that if Blizzard had the tracking capability set-up, they could take the items and gold right back, no matter where they ended up and make things right. It really doesn't even seem that complicated of a system if they really wished to put a death nail in the hacking trade.
I think 5-10 years from now, hacking won't even exist like we see it today. What's needed are better proactive measures combined with an earnest retroactive tracking software method that will make the practice of hacking obsolete and no longer profitable. It will someday just be a "remember when" joke.
The problem with this is that items and gold that were stolen by hackers and/or bought through 3rd-party sites will eventually end up in the hands of legitimate players through trades, AH sales, etc. Let's say player X has his account hacked and all his gold stolen by player Y. Player Y then sells that gold on the RMAH to Player Z. In the system you propose, Blizzard will take away the gold from Player Z and give it back to Player X. That is not a fair system because Player Z bought their gold through a legitimate, in-game method, and there is no way they could get a refund for the real money they spent because the hacker (Player Y) has likely already transferred the money out of battlenet.
Which is exactly why gold should not be salable at the RMAH. This would be where it would get "laundered"...so to speak.
If it was prohibited to sell gold at the RMAH, then the gold would really only be viable for them to sell via 3rd party sites. If the gold was traceable, then they could nail the sellers and the buyers of 3rd party gold. I know it seems logistically complex, but with technology being what it may in the future, I could foresee it as a possibility.
I assume that RMAH's will become a trend with other games, and as such, software companies are going to start treating in-game gold as real assets.
I would love it if gold could not be sold on the RMAH. Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is that gold will be sold one way or another, and Blizzard has decided they might as well try to make a profit off of gold-selling. Look at WoW - even with all the banning that occurs, gold-selling is still rampant and always will be.
So Blizzard's options are to adopt a model like WoW and try (but mostly fail) to prevent gold-selling, or provide a way to allow it to happen within the game and make a profit at the same time. They are going to pick the 2nd option, and I really can't blame them. Let's be honest, here - despite all our warm fuzzy feelings about how awesome Blizzard is and how much they exist because they love to make great games, they are a company. Companies have to make a profit.
I would love it if gold could not be sold on the RMAH. Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is that gold will be sold one way or another, and Blizzard has decided they might as well try to make a profit off of gold-selling. Look at WoW - even with all the banning that occurs, gold-selling is still rampant and always will be.
So Blizzard's options are to adopt a model like WoW and try (but mostly fail) to prevent gold-selling, or provide a way to allow it to happen within the game and make a profit at the same time. They are going to pick the 2nd option, and I really can't blame them. Let's be honest, here - despite all our warm fuzzy feelings about how awesome Blizzard is and how much they exist because they love to make great games, they are a company. Companies have to make a profit.
I think we're mostly in agreement here. I remain hopeful that someday the technology will be readily available to track gold throughout. Maybe not piece by piece, but in whole increments of hundreds perhaps? Since the step has obviously been made in the evolution of gold from pure pixel to a form of real world currency, they could then embrace that evolution toward gold denomination. In other words, do away with, for example, drops of 13 gold and have it only drop in increments of tens (one unit = 10 gold...one unit in this case is easier to attach a tracking ID to than with single pieces). Just thinking outside the box, which I think is warranted.
As to the RMAH; I really think folks should knock off the "We are the 99%"..."fight the corporate power" bullshit. It is because of the "evil-greedy" corporations that we have such frickin awesome games to play.
I expect that since Blizzard will have a rolling income 'post-sale' from D3 that this will manifest itself in a higher level of service and additions to D3 than what we saw with D2. I don't expect the same level of embellishments, new content and upgrades we would see with subscription service, but certainly I expect to see more activity on their part than what we saw between 2002 and current day with D2.
In other words; The RMAH should show itself as a huge positive to our gaming experience as players. If Blizzard does not deliver in this respect, they would, in effect, lose money. Unlike with D2, there was no real incentive for them to dump thousands of man hours and thousands of dollars into a game they no longer generate revenue from.
I would love it if gold could not be sold on the RMAH. Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is that gold will be sold one way or another, and Blizzard has decided they might as well try to make a profit off of gold-selling. Look at WoW - even with all the banning that occurs, gold-selling is still rampant and always will be.
So Blizzard's options are to adopt a model like WoW and try (but mostly fail) to prevent gold-selling, or provide a way to allow it to happen within the game and make a profit at the same time. They are going to pick the 2nd option, and I really can't blame them. Let's be honest, here - despite all our warm fuzzy feelings about how awesome Blizzard is and how much they exist because they love to make great games, they are a company. Companies have to make a profit.
I think we're mostly in agreement here. I remain hopeful that someday the technology will be readily available to track gold throughout. Maybe not piece by piece, but in whole increments of hundreds perhaps? Since the step has obviously been made in the evolution of gold from pure pixel to a form of real world currency, they could then embrace that evolution toward gold denomination. In other words, do away with, for example, drops of 13 gold and have it only drop in increments of tens (one unit = 10 gold...one unit in this case is easier to attach a tracking ID to than with single pieces). Just thinking outside the box, which I think is warranted.
As to the RMAH; I really think folks should knock off the "We are the 99%"..."fight the corporate power" bullshit. It is because of the "evil-greedy" corporations that we have such frickin awesome games to play.
I expect that since Blizzard will have a rolling income 'post-sale' from D3 that this will manifest itself in a higher level of service and additions to D3 than what we saw with D2. I don't expect the same level of embellishments, new content and upgrades we would see with subscription service, but certainly I expect to see more activity on their part than what we saw between 2002 and current day with D2.
In other words; The RMAH should show itself as a huge positive to our gaming experience as players. If Blizzard does not deliver in this respect, they would, in effect, lose money. Unlike with D2, there was no real incentive for them to dump thousands of man hours and thousands of dollars into a game they no longer generate revenue from.
That was always my thought. I think most (not all) people had a knee jerk reaction because they were confusing it with Blizzard actually selling items, like the only way to get them would be to purchase them straight from Blizzard.
I think the more rational people where upset because people would be "paying to win." Which would annoy me, in, say, Starcraft 2, or a competetive game. Also, as Blizzard has said they are going to try and match people in the PvP arenas by gear, it shouldn't end up greatly affecting your win/loss.
How are the hackers able to exchange gold from one account to the other. Is that possible? I know it's shared in the stash for your account, but how do they get it from the hacked account to theirs?
I would love it if gold could not be sold on the RMAH. Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is that gold will be sold one way or another, and Blizzard has decided they might as well try to make a profit off of gold-selling. Look at WoW - even with all the banning that occurs, gold-selling is still rampant and always will be.
So Blizzard's options are to adopt a model like WoW and try (but mostly fail) to prevent gold-selling, or provide a way to allow it to happen within the game and make a profit at the same time. They are going to pick the 2nd option, and I really can't blame them. Let's be honest, here - despite all our warm fuzzy feelings about how awesome Blizzard is and how much they exist because they love to make great games, they are a company. Companies have to make a profit.
I think we're mostly in agreement here. I remain hopeful that someday the technology will be readily available to track gold throughout. Maybe not piece by piece, but in whole increments of hundreds perhaps? Since the step has obviously been made in the evolution of gold from pure pixel to a form of real world currency, they could then embrace that evolution toward gold denomination. In other words, do away with, for example, drops of 13 gold and have it only drop in increments of tens (one unit = 10 gold...one unit in this case is easier to attach a tracking ID to than with single pieces). Just thinking outside the box, which I think is warranted.
As to the RMAH; I really think folks should knock off the "We are the 99%"..."fight the corporate power" bullshit. It is because of the "evil-greedy" corporations that we have such frickin awesome games to play.
I expect that since Blizzard will have a rolling income 'post-sale' from D3 that this will manifest itself in a higher level of service and additions to D3 than what we saw with D2. I don't expect the same level of embellishments, new content and upgrades we would see with subscription service, but certainly I expect to see more activity on their part than what we saw between 2002 and current day with D2.
In other words; The RMAH should show itself as a huge positive to our gaming experience as players. If Blizzard does not deliver in this respect, they would, in effect, lose money. Unlike with D2, there was no real incentive for them to dump thousands of man hours and thousands of dollars into a game they no longer generate revenue from.
I agree that we are mostly in agreement, but I have to comment on one part:
As to the RMAH; I really think folks should knock off the "We are the 99%"..."fight the corporate power" bullshit. It is because of the "evil-greedy" corporations that we have such frickin awesome games to play.
If that was directed at me because of my statement about the reality being that Blizzard is a company and companies are out to make money, I should clarify that I meant nothing negative by that. I never bought into the whole "occupy" or "99%" movement for a multitude of reasons. I don't think there is anything wrong with your goal being to make money, because if you didn't you wouldn't survive as a company. Blizzard makes awesome games, but they only are able to do that because they find ways to make money while making their awesome games, and selling gold on the RMAH is one such way they can make money. I did not mean to imply anything negative or greedy or evil on the part of Blizzard or any other company.
If that was directed at me because of my statement about the reality being that Blizzard is a company and companies are out to make money, I should clarify that I meant nothing negative by that. I never bought into the whole "occupy" or "99%" movement for a multitude of reasons. I don't think there is anything wrong with your goal being to make money, because if you didn't you wouldn't survive as a company. Blizzard makes awesome games, but they only are able to do that because they find ways to make money while making their awesome games, and selling gold on the RMAH is one such way they can make money. I did not mean to imply anything negative or greedy or evil on the part of Blizzard or any other company.
Sorry, wasn't directed at you. I was just referring to all the whining about the "evil Blizzard corporation" that I keep hearing from others. I'm not sure what they've ever done to deserve such talk? Other than being very rich, and they sure didn't get that way by ripping people off and/or making crappy games.
So, we're all basically in agreement that what the hackers do is sell the items to a vendor, and sell the gold to someone? I guess that would make sense as to why they'd even bother with people who only have a lvl 15 (as higher level items don't scale all that much, at least compared to actual market value).
I think if that's the case, then all Blizzard has to do is log gold trades (especially if nothing is given in return) and anytime someone drops gold (can you still do that?). They really shouldn't have too high a volume, especially of the gold dropping (I mean, who does that anymore? The only time it was done in D2 was when someone accidently picked up someone's dead body gold pile). Blizzard would just then, on a rollback, delete the gold from whoever has, under the idea that "you bought gold from a 3rd party system, it's illegal."
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What I don't get is...doesn't Blizzard know what account gets the items directly out of the hacked account? I mean, the first time it happens, yeah, maybe they're using a patsy, but when it happens 30 times in a row...maybe ban the account and delete the items?
Or is it as simple as Blizzard not deleteing the items. In which case it seems like they're just asking for the hackers to do it.
If its anything like wow more then likely they are either banning people who buy gold (and locking the compromised accounts) or removing the items purchased with the gold. so they can roll back the compromised accounts.
If there was no $$$ incentive for the hackers they wouldn't do it (at least on such a "large" scale).
I think 5-10 years from now, hacking won't even exist like we see it today. What's needed are better proactive measures combined with an earnest retroactive tracking software method that will make the practice of hacking obsolete and no longer profitable. It will someday just be a "remember when" joke.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Yeah but how much data would they have to store to track the history of every gold piece in the game? I don't think it's technically feasible. Items maybe.
The problem with this is that items and gold that were stolen by hackers and/or bought through 3rd-party sites will eventually end up in the hands of legitimate players through trades, AH sales, etc. Let's say player X has his account hacked and all his gold stolen by player Y. Player Y then sells that gold on the RMAH to Player Z. In the system you propose, Blizzard will take away the gold from Player Z and give it back to Player X. That is not a fair system because Player Z bought their gold through a legitimate, in-game method, and there is no way they could get a refund for the real money they spent because the hacker (Player Y) has likely already transferred the money out of battlenet.
Which is exactly why gold should not be salable at the RMAH. This would be where it would get "laundered"...so to speak.
If it was prohibited to sell gold at the RMAH, then the gold would really only be viable for them to sell via 3rd party sites. If the gold was traceable, then they could nail the sellers and the buyers of 3rd party gold. I know it seems logistically complex, but with technology being what it may in the future, I could foresee it as a possibility.
I assume that RMAH's will become a trend with other games, and as such, software companies are going to start treating in-game gold as real assets.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Well, they wouldn't go after EVERYONE who gets stolen goods. I would imagine you'd wait a little while, log where the stolen goods go - they're probably going to hit one or two accounts. Ban those. It's possible they could use a hacked account to hold the goods until it's sold, which would suck. Or just delete the items, no matter who got it. I mean, I doubt the hackers are using the AH, it's too slow/traceable. They're probably dumping it all into a handful of accounts, then selling it on 3rd part sites. Then Blizzard could simply say "you bought it on a third party site, which is against our TOS, too luck." If people try and say "oh, someone just gave it to me" then A) at least in the US it doesn't matter how you got it, if you have stolen goods that can be proven to be stolen, you lose the goods, whether you paid for it or not, and you got a free item, but in the name of fighting hacking, sorry.
All that said, I think I saw a blue post that said they don't track items, as it would be too hard. Which is odd, I would think it would be feasible to have each item have a 5ish long list of B.Net tags on it of the last five owners.
I would love it if gold could not be sold on the RMAH. Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is that gold will be sold one way or another, and Blizzard has decided they might as well try to make a profit off of gold-selling. Look at WoW - even with all the banning that occurs, gold-selling is still rampant and always will be.
So Blizzard's options are to adopt a model like WoW and try (but mostly fail) to prevent gold-selling, or provide a way to allow it to happen within the game and make a profit at the same time. They are going to pick the 2nd option, and I really can't blame them. Let's be honest, here - despite all our warm fuzzy feelings about how awesome Blizzard is and how much they exist because they love to make great games, they are a company. Companies have to make a profit.
I think we're mostly in agreement here. I remain hopeful that someday the technology will be readily available to track gold throughout. Maybe not piece by piece, but in whole increments of hundreds perhaps? Since the step has obviously been made in the evolution of gold from pure pixel to a form of real world currency, they could then embrace that evolution toward gold denomination. In other words, do away with, for example, drops of 13 gold and have it only drop in increments of tens (one unit = 10 gold...one unit in this case is easier to attach a tracking ID to than with single pieces). Just thinking outside the box, which I think is warranted.
As to the RMAH; I really think folks should knock off the "We are the 99%"..."fight the corporate power" bullshit. It is because of the "evil-greedy" corporations that we have such frickin awesome games to play.
I expect that since Blizzard will have a rolling income 'post-sale' from D3 that this will manifest itself in a higher level of service and additions to D3 than what we saw with D2. I don't expect the same level of embellishments, new content and upgrades we would see with subscription service, but certainly I expect to see more activity on their part than what we saw between 2002 and current day with D2.
In other words; The RMAH should show itself as a huge positive to our gaming experience as players. If Blizzard does not deliver in this respect, they would, in effect, lose money. Unlike with D2, there was no real incentive for them to dump thousands of man hours and thousands of dollars into a game they no longer generate revenue from.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
That was always my thought. I think most (not all) people had a knee jerk reaction because they were confusing it with Blizzard actually selling items, like the only way to get them would be to purchase them straight from Blizzard.
I think the more rational people where upset because people would be "paying to win." Which would annoy me, in, say, Starcraft 2, or a competetive game. Also, as Blizzard has said they are going to try and match people in the PvP arenas by gear, it shouldn't end up greatly affecting your win/loss.
I agree that we are mostly in agreement, but I have to comment on one part:
If that was directed at me because of my statement about the reality being that Blizzard is a company and companies are out to make money, I should clarify that I meant nothing negative by that. I never bought into the whole "occupy" or "99%" movement for a multitude of reasons. I don't think there is anything wrong with your goal being to make money, because if you didn't you wouldn't survive as a company. Blizzard makes awesome games, but they only are able to do that because they find ways to make money while making their awesome games, and selling gold on the RMAH is one such way they can make money. I did not mean to imply anything negative or greedy or evil on the part of Blizzard or any other company.
Sorry, wasn't directed at you. I was just referring to all the whining about the "evil Blizzard corporation" that I keep hearing from others. I'm not sure what they've ever done to deserve such talk? Other than being very rich, and they sure didn't get that way by ripping people off and/or making crappy games.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
I think if that's the case, then all Blizzard has to do is log gold trades (especially if nothing is given in return) and anytime someone drops gold (can you still do that?). They really shouldn't have too high a volume, especially of the gold dropping (I mean, who does that anymore? The only time it was done in D2 was when someone accidently picked up someone's dead body gold pile). Blizzard would just then, on a rollback, delete the gold from whoever has, under the idea that "you bought gold from a 3rd party system, it's illegal."