stackability:
It has to stack indeed. There really can be no doubt about this.
losing the buff:
I don't think it should wipe on death, but maybe reduce the stack upon death.
I really don't think it should end on logout. Way too penalizing for people with short play sessions or or people who might just have to quit randomly due to kid crying or whatever. It should only reset if you change quest at the character login screen. If you continue your game where you left it last, then the buff should stay - at some point you will have cleared the game and be forced to reset your quest of course (or start on a new quest simply because you want to), so the buff would go away sooner or later.
Encouraging people into long play sessions, rather than just sticking to their current quest progression (which seems to be Blizzards actual goal here) is not very good game design, and certainly not casual friendly.
effect:
The max MF bonus should be substantial enough to offer a benefit you really want to aim for.
I'd say, if you can get for example 400% MF in inferno, without sacrificing other stats too much, then NV buff should go to something like 200%, making both the buff and the gear relevant.
A relative %-bonus buff, based on how much MF gear you have wont really work, as it would hurt people with low MF, which there are no good reasons for.
stack count:
It should stack fairly high, but have very little benefit per stack.
I'd say it should stack to at least 100 elite kills. And be diminishing, so early on you get 5-10% per kill, and later on you get 1% or less per extra stack, up to those 200% or whatever feels right.
This way it would take time to get the buff maxed (which it have to, to fulfill the goals Blizzard stated), but the diminishing return keeps it front-loaded, so you wont get penalized too much for losing the buff.
I really don't see how this "fixes the flaws of D2 or WoW" tbh. While It's an interesting mechanic in concept and in design, it just seems... I don't know...
I wouldn't say its unnecessary but it doesn't seem like it's really needed either. If someone likes playing a build, they will stick to that build through thick and thin. Are people really switching builds that often while testing in-house? Why discourage more hardcore players from mix/maxing builds and switching between them in the first place? If Blizzard wants to discourage specing, why not just tack on a flat percentage gold fee or have time limitations on respeccing? I guess they want to throw casual players a bone by giving them this valor buff, for some reason?
I have to agree that the buff wearing off if you switch specs is a little drastic. They say it's because they don't want people switching it up for each encounter, and while yes in theory that's awesome, I think in practice after someone finds a build they like, they won't keep switching. Maybe after the game goes live this will be removed, but on the flip side I don't plan on switching enough to make it affect me either.
If people will be settling into a build and not switch, how is losing the buff if you do switch drastic?
You only lose it once you've started. You can still switch skills in town.
It just seems people made up this idea that they would be switching skills all the time, before bosses, for different kind of elite or champion packs. I never understood why people believed this and blizzard clearly stated they DON'T want people doing that
By making this buff only work once you're 60, you should have found a build by then that works for you. You can still switch, just do it in town before you start the game for real.
it feels like they are rewarding/forcing players to stay in game as long as possible!
[do ihave to go to town and leave pc running during night time?]
i believe it should reset after clearing an area. + i like the idea though.
That makes no sense.
They aren't rewarding people for never logging out of the game. They are rewarding players for sweeping areas clear to find elites and champs. Not like those idiots who B-line it right to the boss all the time.
This promotes actually exploring dead end tiles for elites and champs. Right now in beta (and without this change in retail) people don't even explore upper staircases, dead end tiles etc. People just run passed everything right to the exit. It's damn lame.
This new buff promotes you to clear whole areas and check even places you know don't lead anywhere in the hopes of finding elites and champs.
You can still leave the game. You can call it a night and come back tomorrow. You'll just need to find more elites and champs on your next play through.
Get used to this as this is what Blizzard intends end game to be.
stackability:
It has to stack indeed. There really can be no doubt about this.
losing the buff:
I don't think it should wipe on death, but maybe reduce the stack upon death.
I really don't think it should end on logout. Way too penalizing for people with short play sessions or or people who might just have to quit randomly due to kid crying or whatever. It should only reset if you change quest at the character login screen. If you continue your game where you left it last, then the buff should stay - at some point you will have cleared the game and be forced to reset your quest of course (or start on a new quest simply because you want to), so the buff would go away sooner or later.
Encouraging people into long play sessions, rather than just sticking to their current quest progression (which seems to be Blizzards actual goal here) is not very good game design, and certainly not casual friendly.
How is this in any way penalizing anyone? There is no way they will make this buff last through log out or until you change chapter or quest. That will only promote what they are trying to avoid. You'll sweep the area clean of elites and champs, get your max stack of the buff and NEVER do anything but reset the game and B-line it right to the boss every time.
You don't have to play for hours. Why does everyone jump to these worst case scenarios? Play for as long as you want to play. You don't get max stack of the buff cuse you only got 30 mins to play? so what? You'll still be killing stuff, you'll still be finding loot etc. Yeah people with more time will probably end up with better loot per hour or whatever, but frankly that was always the case regardless of the buff.
Might as well say players having more free time is penalizing other players while we are at it.
i just want unique drops from this buff, they did say there are sooooo many builds and items but this buff shouldnt be just about extra loot, it should be more rewarding since it is a buff, my only hope is that this game has wayyyyyy more items then the first two games and that there are items of greater equal power to one another so that way there isnt just one set of armor that is the best, so therefore hopefully when this new buff is implemented it would drop extremely unique items thus making those items a class of there own so to speak.
i just want unique drops from this buff, they did say there are sooooo many builds and items but this buff shouldnt be just about extra loot, it should be more rewarding since it is a buff, my only hope is that this game has wayyyyyy more items then the first two games and that there are items of greater equal power to one another so that way there isnt just one set of armor that is the best, so therefore hopefully when this new buff is implemented it would drop extremely unique items thus making those items a class of there own so to speak.
The buff doesn't change what monsters drop. All it does is increase your gold and MF % (along with apparently causing the boss to drop more loot)
i just want unique drops from this buff, they did say there are sooooo many builds and items but this buff shouldnt be just about extra loot, it should be more rewarding since it is a buff, my only hope is that this game has wayyyyyy more items then the first two games and that there are items of greater equal power to one another so that way there isnt just one set of armor that is the best, so therefore hopefully when this new buff is implemented it would drop extremely unique items thus making those items a class of there own so to speak.
The buff doesn't change what monsters drop. All it does is increase your gold and MF % (along with apparently causing the boss to drop more loot)
but increasing the mf also increases the chances of getting better items as well, dont you see, thats what im saying here
I really don't see how this "fixes the flaws of D2 or WoW" tbh. While It's an interesting mechanic in concept and in design, it just seems... I don't know...
I wouldn't say its unnecessary but it doesn't seem like it's really needed either. If someone likes playing a build, they will stick to that build through thick and thin. Are people really switching builds that often while testing in-house? Why discourage more hardcore players from mix/maxing builds and switching between them in the first place? If Blizzard wants to discourage specing, why not just tack on a flat percentage gold fee or have time limitations on respeccing? I guess they want to throw casual players a bone by giving them this valor buff, for some reason?
I have to agree that the buff wearing off if you switch specs is a little drastic. They say it's because they don't want people switching it up for each encounter, and while yes in theory that's awesome, I think in practice after someone finds a build they like, they won't keep switching. Maybe after the game goes live this will be removed, but on the flip side I don't plan on switching enough to make it affect me either.
If people will be settling into a build and not switch, how is losing the buff if you do switch drastic?
You only lose it once you've started. You can still switch skills in town.
It just seems people made up this idea that they would be switching skills all the time, before bosses, for different kind of elite or champion packs. I never understood why people believed this and blizzard clearly stated they DON'T want people doing that
By making this buff only work once you're 60, you should have found a build by then that works for you. You can still switch, just do it in town before you start the game for real.
I guess I didn't make myself clear enough. I'm on the fence, because in one hand I'm pretty sure most people won't be switching during a run, and thus it doesn't make a difference. But I also feel that the penalty if you DO want to switch halfway through (maybe your buddy joins and you want to change it up, more aoe or something) I feel losing all the stacks (however many you actually get) from all your champion kills thus far IS a little drastic, it feels like a penalty that shouldn't be there, when making a new game already clears your stacks.
stackability:
It has to stack indeed. There really can be no doubt about this.
But you gave no argument.... you just said it has to happen.
I disagree. I think for it to be fair it shouldn't stack, but have a duration, sort of like a MF/Gold Shrine. That way it remains fair for everyone, and doesn't drastically penalize a plethora of people.
People who like to frequently switch skills.
People who can't play long durations.
People who like to farm certain areas
People who are noobs or generally undergeared;
People who don't like rushing though an area.
etc...
All these people get the shaft from a stacking system.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
How is this in any way penalizing anyone? There is no way they will make this buff last through log out or until you change chapter or quest. That will only promote what they are trying to avoid. You'll sweep the area clean of elites and champs, get your max stack of the buff and NEVER do anything but reset the game and B-line it right to the boss every time.
You cant repeat a boss without resetting the quest, so no you would not be able to do that.
stackability:
It has to stack indeed. There really can be no doubt about this.
But you gave no argument.... you just said it has to happen.
I disagree. I think for it to be fair it shouldn't stack, but have a duration, sort of like a MF/Gold Shrine. That way it remains fair for everyone, and doesn't drastically penalize a plethora of people.
People who like to frequently switch skills.
People who can't play long durations.
People who like to farm certain areas
People who are noobs or generally undergeared;
People who don't like rushing though an area.
etc...
All these people get the shaft from a stacking system.
If it doesn't stack, then there is no purpose to the system.
If you can go out and kill one single elite for the max effect, then you are not discouraged from respeccing or rerunning the same small area over and over.
Which is the whole purpose of the system!
As for your example 3 and 4, I cant see how a stacking buff would hurt "noobs" in any way, nor would it hurt people who like to explore, contrary, people who like to explore will find more elites, and thus be rewarded more.
Those who rush through an area will only penalize themselves.
How is this in any way penalizing anyone? There is no way they will make this buff last through log out or until you change chapter or quest. That will only promote what they are trying to avoid. You'll sweep the area clean of elites and champs, get your max stack of the buff and NEVER do anything but reset the game and B-line it right to the boss every time.
You cant repeat a boss without resetting the quest, so no you would not be able to do that.
stackability:
It has to stack indeed. There really can be no doubt about this.
But you gave no argument.... you just said it has to happen.
I disagree. I think for it to be fair it shouldn't stack, but have a duration, sort of like a MF/Gold Shrine. That way it remains fair for everyone, and doesn't drastically penalize a plethora of people.
People who like to frequently switch skills.
People who can't play long durations.
People who like to farm certain areas
People who are noobs or generally undergeared;
People who don't like rushing though an area.
etc...
All these people get the shaft from a stacking system.
If it doesn't stack, then there is no purpose to the system.
If you can go out and kill one single elite for the max effect, then you are not discouraged from respeccing or rerunning the same small area over and over.
Which is the whole purpose of the system!
As for your example 3 and 4, I cant see how a stacking buff would hurt "noobs" in any way, nor would it hurt people who like to explore, contrary, people who like to explore will find more elites, and thus be rewarded more.
Those who rush through an area will only penalize themselves.
Of course you are discouraged from doing it, because you lose the buff. Why do you think a single buff can't be as good as a stacked one? There shouldn't be a huge penalty for switching skills.
No the point of the system is to keep people in the game, and to give people a reason to kill the bosses. Rather than just finding a location where a champion often spawns and just keep hoping in and out.
A stacked buffed hurts noobs/undergeared players for 2 reasons.
#1 If the duration is too low, then they might not make it to the next group in time.
#2 If it goes away at death, they lose all the work they did stacking it up to that point.
A more seasoned player will kill faster, and die less, thus giving him an absolutely HUGE advantage over these other players.
I was referring to people who rush as people who wouldn't even bother killing the normal mobs, unless they had to. Sort of like those speed runs of the beta we see. Again depending on duration, this could end up being the result and losing stacks you have to rebuild is obviously far detrimental than losing a single buff.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
A single buff cant achieve the same because you can get a single buff in one single kill, as in very fast.
If you can get the buff fast, then it isn't achieving its goal anymore, as losing it means nearly nothing. You simply go and kill one single elite and you are back to max again. Not useful.
And your argument about losing it on death, I'm pretty sure I said the buff shouldn't be lost on death.
Plus I said the buff shouldn't have a duration at all, it should last pretty much forever (until you do one of the things which removes it). Again, I cant see how this would in any way hurt those you call noobs.
A relative %-bonus buff, based on how much MF gear you have wont really work, as it would hurt people with low MF, which there are no good reasons for.
Why would it hurt people with low mf? If you have low mf because your gear in general is pretty low lvl due to just having reached lvl60 for example, that's ok. It will improve and so will the buff? What's the matter?
And if you have low mf because you opt to go for other stats, that's your choice and this choice should be meaningful. The buff being absolute might render this choice useless, because players may not care about mf on gear, when they already get like 400% from the buff alone. This would be bad design.
stackability:
It has to stack indeed. There really can be no doubt about this.
But you gave no argument.... you just said it has to happen.
I did in the op and this seems to be so obvious, that people tend to not elaborate anymore.
on the duration:
It should have one that's short enough to reward an ongoing flow of monster kills, that's Diablo. It shouldn't be gone completely after just a bio break, but if you quit the action for like 20mins, then your character would really lose all of his adrenaline and combat momentum, right? And also if there was no duration at all, players might feel a need to stay logged in during longer breaks or even overnight, which would be terrible. For them on a personal level and for the servers.
A relative %-bonus buff, based on how much MF gear you have wont really work, as it would hurt people with low MF, which there are no good reasons for.
Why would it hurt people with low mf? If you have low mf because your gear in general is pretty low lvl due to just having reached lvl60 for example, that's ok. It will improve and so will the buff? What's the matter?
And if you have low mf because you opt to go for other stats, that's your choice and this choice should be meaningful. The buff being absolute might render this choice useless, because players may not care about mf on gear, when they already get like 400% from the buff alone. This would be bad design.
If you choose to have low mf on your gear that choice already is meaningful. It means you have low mf on your gear. People shouldnt be penalized twice for it.
If NV scaled with your gear MF, then MF would be an even better stat than it already is, which is hardly needed.
More MF is always better so having an absolute amount from the NV buff and an absolute amount from gear should work just fine.
Though the cap on the buff should be low enough that the majority of your MF still comes from gear.
For example if you can reasonably get 400% MF from gear, then maybe the NV caps should be 200%
on the duration:
It should have one that's short enough to reward an ongoing flow of monster kills, that's Diablo. It shouldn't be gone completely after just a bio break, but if you quit the action for like 20mins, then your character would really lose all of his adrenaline and combat momentum, right? And also if there was no duration at all, players might feel a need to stay logged in during longer breaks or even overnight, which would be terrible. For them on a personal level and for the servers.
True. I still think the better solution for that behavior is allowing the buff to remain during logout though.
If it does have a duration it should be fairly long though. I can imagine the time between the last elite kill before a boss, and then the boss fight, getting to a new act and finding your first new elite can take some time. People shouldn't miss their buff just because they spent time talking to the NPCs in the new city for example.
Anything less than an hour and I'm afraid people would feel they had to rush sometimes to refresh their buff.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
It has to stack indeed. There really can be no doubt about this.
losing the buff:
I don't think it should wipe on death, but maybe reduce the stack upon death.
I really don't think it should end on logout. Way too penalizing for people with short play sessions or or people who might just have to quit randomly due to kid crying or whatever. It should only reset if you change quest at the character login screen. If you continue your game where you left it last, then the buff should stay - at some point you will have cleared the game and be forced to reset your quest of course (or start on a new quest simply because you want to), so the buff would go away sooner or later.
Encouraging people into long play sessions, rather than just sticking to their current quest progression (which seems to be Blizzards actual goal here) is not very good game design, and certainly not casual friendly.
effect:
The max MF bonus should be substantial enough to offer a benefit you really want to aim for.
I'd say, if you can get for example 400% MF in inferno, without sacrificing other stats too much, then NV buff should go to something like 200%, making both the buff and the gear relevant.
A relative %-bonus buff, based on how much MF gear you have wont really work, as it would hurt people with low MF, which there are no good reasons for.
stack count:
It should stack fairly high, but have very little benefit per stack.
I'd say it should stack to at least 100 elite kills. And be diminishing, so early on you get 5-10% per kill, and later on you get 1% or less per extra stack, up to those 200% or whatever feels right.
This way it would take time to get the buff maxed (which it have to, to fulfill the goals Blizzard stated), but the diminishing return keeps it front-loaded, so you wont get penalized too much for losing the buff.
If people will be settling into a build and not switch, how is losing the buff if you do switch drastic?
You only lose it once you've started. You can still switch skills in town.
It just seems people made up this idea that they would be switching skills all the time, before bosses, for different kind of elite or champion packs. I never understood why people believed this and blizzard clearly stated they DON'T want people doing that
By making this buff only work once you're 60, you should have found a build by then that works for you. You can still switch, just do it in town before you start the game for real.
That makes no sense.
They aren't rewarding people for never logging out of the game. They are rewarding players for sweeping areas clear to find elites and champs. Not like those idiots who B-line it right to the boss all the time.
This promotes actually exploring dead end tiles for elites and champs. Right now in beta (and without this change in retail) people don't even explore upper staircases, dead end tiles etc. People just run passed everything right to the exit. It's damn lame.
This new buff promotes you to clear whole areas and check even places you know don't lead anywhere in the hopes of finding elites and champs.
You can still leave the game. You can call it a night and come back tomorrow. You'll just need to find more elites and champs on your next play through.
Get used to this as this is what Blizzard intends end game to be.
How is this in any way penalizing anyone? There is no way they will make this buff last through log out or until you change chapter or quest. That will only promote what they are trying to avoid. You'll sweep the area clean of elites and champs, get your max stack of the buff and NEVER do anything but reset the game and B-line it right to the boss every time.
You don't have to play for hours. Why does everyone jump to these worst case scenarios? Play for as long as you want to play. You don't get max stack of the buff cuse you only got 30 mins to play? so what? You'll still be killing stuff, you'll still be finding loot etc. Yeah people with more time will probably end up with better loot per hour or whatever, but frankly that was always the case regardless of the buff.
Might as well say players having more free time is penalizing other players while we are at it.
The buff doesn't change what monsters drop. All it does is increase your gold and MF % (along with apparently causing the boss to drop more loot)
I guess I didn't make myself clear enough. I'm on the fence, because in one hand I'm pretty sure most people won't be switching during a run, and thus it doesn't make a difference. But I also feel that the penalty if you DO want to switch halfway through (maybe your buddy joins and you want to change it up, more aoe or something) I feel losing all the stacks (however many you actually get) from all your champion kills thus far IS a little drastic, it feels like a penalty that shouldn't be there, when making a new game already clears your stacks.
I disagree. I think for it to be fair it shouldn't stack, but have a duration, sort of like a MF/Gold Shrine. That way it remains fair for everyone, and doesn't drastically penalize a plethora of people.
People who like to frequently switch skills.
People who can't play long durations.
People who like to farm certain areas
People who are noobs or generally undergeared;
People who don't like rushing though an area.
etc...
All these people get the shaft from a stacking system.
Epicurus
If it doesn't stack, then there is no purpose to the system.
If you can go out and kill one single elite for the max effect, then you are not discouraged from respeccing or rerunning the same small area over and over.
Which is the whole purpose of the system!
As for your example 3 and 4, I cant see how a stacking buff would hurt "noobs" in any way, nor would it hurt people who like to explore, contrary, people who like to explore will find more elites, and thus be rewarded more.
Those who rush through an area will only penalize themselves.
Of course you are discouraged from doing it, because you lose the buff. Why do you think a single buff can't be as good as a stacked one? There shouldn't be a huge penalty for switching skills.
No the point of the system is to keep people in the game, and to give people a reason to kill the bosses. Rather than just finding a location where a champion often spawns and just keep hoping in and out.
A stacked buffed hurts noobs/undergeared players for 2 reasons.
#1 If the duration is too low, then they might not make it to the next group in time.
#2 If it goes away at death, they lose all the work they did stacking it up to that point.
A more seasoned player will kill faster, and die less, thus giving him an absolutely HUGE advantage over these other players.
I was referring to people who rush as people who wouldn't even bother killing the normal mobs, unless they had to. Sort of like those speed runs of the beta we see. Again depending on duration, this could end up being the result and losing stacks you have to rebuild is obviously far detrimental than losing a single buff.
Epicurus
If you can get the buff fast, then it isn't achieving its goal anymore, as losing it means nearly nothing. You simply go and kill one single elite and you are back to max again. Not useful.
And your argument about losing it on death, I'm pretty sure I said the buff shouldn't be lost on death.
Plus I said the buff shouldn't have a duration at all, it should last pretty much forever (until you do one of the things which removes it). Again, I cant see how this would in any way hurt those you call noobs.
No duration = no rush. I cant see a problem here.
And if you have low mf because you opt to go for other stats, that's your choice and this choice should be meaningful. The buff being absolute might render this choice useless, because players may not care about mf on gear, when they already get like 400% from the buff alone. This would be bad design.
I did in the op and this seems to be so obvious, that people tend to not elaborate anymore.
on the duration:
It should have one that's short enough to reward an ongoing flow of monster kills, that's Diablo. It shouldn't be gone completely after just a bio break, but if you quit the action for like 20mins, then your character would really lose all of his adrenaline and combat momentum, right? And also if there was no duration at all, players might feel a need to stay logged in during longer breaks or even overnight, which would be terrible. For them on a personal level and for the servers.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
The whole point of the Nephalem buff is that it gets removed on re-spec. So there is no discussion to be made there, just wanted to point that out.
Sure, you're welcome to do so. I just didn't want my previous phrase to lead to wrong speculations, so I thought, I'd better make this clear.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
If NV scaled with your gear MF, then MF would be an even better stat than it already is, which is hardly needed.
More MF is always better so having an absolute amount from the NV buff and an absolute amount from gear should work just fine.
Though the cap on the buff should be low enough that the majority of your MF still comes from gear.
For example if you can reasonably get 400% MF from gear, then maybe the NV caps should be 200%
True. I still think the better solution for that behavior is allowing the buff to remain during logout though.
If it does have a duration it should be fairly long though. I can imagine the time between the last elite kill before a boss, and then the boss fight, getting to a new act and finding your first new elite can take some time. People shouldn't miss their buff just because they spent time talking to the NPCs in the new city for example.
Anything less than an hour and I'm afraid people would feel they had to rush sometimes to refresh their buff.