Why would anyone pick whites if they are worthless as Blizz stated? Even if whites still can be sold for some gold (as some fans are fixated on), and Blizz wouldnt want us to profit from even that, what do you think is easier - to make whites sell value as zero (1 min change), or to remove cube/cauldron (would require days or even weeks of programing and UI change)?
As pointed out above, making whites sell for zero is infinitely easier, how about whats better?
1. Forced teleportation every 20-30 mins to salvage magic items, will take 1-2 mins. The worst and the most annoying D2 aspect is returned, just not as severe.
2. Salvaging magic items every 20-30 mins on the fly, takes 10-15 secs. You can stay in action, - a pleasure in solo, and even better in groups - no forced 1-2 mins. random breaks every 10-20 mins (people will collect items at different rate).
Bottom line: regardless if you look from whats easier to do, or whats better for players, removing cube/cauldrom not only doesnt make ANY sense, its counter-productive and deliberately annoying change to the players.
They still want the whites to be worth something, but is it worth Enough of the player's time and inventory space, the player will have to decide.
I believe that is what they are shooting for. They want the better items be like a present, identification be the opening of the box, then i would assume that the white items are like those tissue paper you stuff the gift bags with. They still have some value no?
Simply making whites worthless, would make it meaningless and pointless. As designers I'm pretty sure they want to make sure every mechanic, item, npc, skill, quest to have a little bit of meaning, or worth.
That's why originally they made whites to be salvagable and etc, but found that in the beta (and probably in internal testing too) players are wasting too much time running in circles picking up everything, and salvaging it, in order to craft.
This will for sure happen because salvaging lower level items still have a chance to be get higher level materials. Plus materials can be upgraded when you enter a new difficulty and after your blacksmith reach a certain skill level.
As for comparing the time spent going back to town vs how often to salvage a whole inventory, that is quite debatable. But one thing you did not take into account is the time players spent going around in circles picking up everything instead of running to the next area. I know its quite small, but it adds up. Back in D2 when you are in a group rushing from one place to another, there is no time to pick up anything. "grab the damn wp and lets go go go"
To be honest i see this as the skill-swapping issue, they first give us ultimate freedom, and people get used to it, and then change their mind and restricts it. Of course people wont be happy, but people still get used to it after a while.
Anyway, let's put this to rest for now how about it, wait for the new patch next week.
As for comparing the time spent going back to town vs how often to salvage a whole inventory, that is quite debatable. But one thing you did not take into account is the time players spent going around in circles picking up everything instead of running to the next area. I know its quite small, but it adds up. Back in D2 when you are in a group rushing from one place to another, there is no time to pick up anything. "grab the damn wp and lets go go go"
I dont see the debate, 10-15 sec vs 1-2 mins. Do the math.
And again - nobody will be picking whites, why do people keep repeating it without any thinking? Players ONLY pick them if there is a value (i.e. salvage or decent gold). Salvage is removed, and gold will be very low. If Blizz doesnt want players picking whites AT ALL, make their value zero, and keep cube/cauldron. Everyone benefits, nobody is harmed, common sense. On top of that, change takes less than a minute to implement, no extra delay on launch.
Because gold can be sold on the Real Market Auction House. I agree, for most players, they wouldn't pick up white items (heck, I probably wouldn't, unless I'm discovering items for the first time and want to see what they are).
But, if I want an item from the gold auction house that closes in, say, an hour, for the next 50 minutes I am going to be grinding to get as much gold as possible, both from monster drops and selling items. Yes, in your world, with white items having a selling cost of 0, it wouldn't matter, but it depends on a few factors:
a) How long it takes to get items
How long it takes to pick up the items
c) How long it takes to sell the items
d) How much gold you get from selling items
We can safely assume, all things being equal, that D remains constant. They haven't changed how much things sell for. So, to work out if it is worth to pick up white items and sell them, you've got to combine A, B, and C. Because the alternative is that you only pick up and sell Magic or better items. With the CoJ, the amount of time it takes to sell items is minimal.
Ideally, in the Beta, you would have 2 players. 1 who picks up everything and sells it through the CoJ, and another player who only picks up magic (or better) items and sells those. The problem is, we are trying to debate (I assume) Hell and Inferno drop rates, and we simply don't know what those are.
As for comparing the time spent going back to town vs how often to salvage a whole inventory, that is quite debatable. But one thing you did not take into account is the time players spent going around in circles picking up everything instead of running to the next area. I know its quite small, but it adds up. Back in D2 when you are in a group rushing from one place to another, there is no time to pick up anything. "grab the damn wp and lets go go go"
I dont see the debate, 10-15 sec vs 1-2 mins. Do the math.
And again - nobody will be picking whites, why do people keep repeating it without any thinking? Players ONLY pick them if there is a value (i.e. salvage or decent gold). Salvage is removed, and gold will be very low. If Blizz doesnt want players picking whites AT ALL, make their value zero, and keep cube/cauldron. Everyone benefits, nobody is harmed, common sense. On top of that, change takes less than a minute to implement, no extra delay on launch.
It is Not simply "10-15s vs 1-2 min"
I'm making numbers up here but, it could be (15s every 20min) vs (1 min every hour minus X seconds that you are in town anyway for quests/craft/skills)
Or any other number, depending on play style, area, difficulty, etc etc...
You have to see that players have to go back to town anyway, for quests and so forth. If you are in town already, how many extra seconds does it take to walk to the blacksmith?
Comparing to D2 with the D3 content we currently have, they intentionally make you go back to town a lot more.
So that is why I said it is debatable.
Also about making whites useless, what about blues? when you enter Hell, and Inferno, what are you going to do with blues? I'm sure they'll drop quite a lot too right? But they will still be worth something. With the cubes, the time sacrificed is so minimal that people will pick them up. So do we make blues useless?
The thing blizzard is trying to strike for is to force players make that decision, whether to be a garbage truck, and whether or not the items on the ground is worth the player's time and inventory space.
Why would anyone pick whites if they are worthless as Blizz stated? Even if whites still can be sold for some gold (as some fans are fixated on), and Blizz wouldnt want us to profit from even that, what do you think is easier - to make whites sell value as zero (1 min change), or to remove cube/cauldron (would require days or even weeks of programing and UI change)?
As pointed out above, making whites sell for zero is infinitely easier, how about whats better?
Well, most people who buy the game don't go to the forums, so they won't know that the item is considered worthless. Blizzard can always add a tag to white item tooltip that states: 'discard this item, it's worthless', but that would be too blatant. White items selling for 0 gold isn't a bad idea though, then you'd basically just sell items based off of their magic properties.
To be honest, I don't know how I feel about the CoJ and NC being dropped. On the one side I felt towns became obsolete if you look at it in a D2 sense. But in D3 you still needed to go back to change skills, use your stash, repair and also for crafting, so really you still needed to go to town. CoJ and NC just removed one more necessity, but clearly we still needed towns, now Blizzard has just doubled, maybe even tripled, the amount of trips you will be doing. Is that a good thing, I don't know?
eessh what a mess. I was talking about "picking up everything" vs "only items that are worthwhile to the player". Which was the original debate, the reasons that made blizzard removed the cubes. But you were talking about non-whites items only. So to avoid further confusion, lets drop it as that.
For the argument about the blues, I was pointing out that making whites worthless is not the way to go, because it does not solve the problem of people behaving like garbage trucks. Once you are in higher difficulties, blues will take over, and people will still behave that way for those reasons I listed. That's why instead of making items worthless, blizzard removed the cubes.
Lastly, for their "forced decision making" There are forced restrictions everywhere in the game. Any game has them, tetris, chess... It's based on those restrictions that you get a game, you either do this or that, but you can't have the best of both worlds.
I don't really see deciding what to pickup shooting myself in the leg or arm or head... leaving things of value behind is not a punishment, every other rpg does it... you just have to find the right balance for you, picking up only items that are valuable enough for you...
I think we had enough of this, if you are going to pick on every bit of game design, if its smart or not, you'll probably go crazy. The skills, the stats, enhancements, crafting....
Also agree it takes max 30 seconds to go to town. Create portal, walk to NPC, click click click, walk back to portal. Not 2 minutes.
Personally I don't care about the time. In the end we are talking seconds of difference. Even if it's minutes, as long as it is fun. And to me salvaging whites every 5 minutes in my inventory because it is full again isn't fun.
Do you play in beta? It will obviously take longer than 30 secs with towns. Not only because there is a casting time on Stone of Recall, but you have to wait till town loads (depends on PC), then you have to run to Blacksmith to salvage and to Merchant to sell. Then portal back.
Compare it to open inventory and click-click-click and you are done. Convenience >>>> annoyance.
Oh, and if you like to waste time on things we didnt had to waste time before, its your choice, not for us, majority of players.
And again, whites have nothing to do with cube/cauldron removal, get up to to speed someday.
Im in beta, and with the new 2 second cast on TP, you could definitly do it all in 30-45 seconds, and the changes blizzard made in beta 10, will make the game go from a flop WoW easy mode style game, to an addictive fun D2 style game, how it should be.
Quit whining already, the changes are a good thing.
Don't worry guys I'm positive that the cauldron and the cube will be back in one form or another. I would not be surprised if it gets turned into some form of service or even something you can buy of the "blizz store". Both of those items are very convenient to have but still not needed to play the game, that makes them ideal to be made into something to score extra money down the line. I have never bought anything from the blizz store but if they introduce something like this I just might reconsider. Either way I would not be surprised at all if we see these two items making a reappearance.
They would make a killing off it, i agree. But i dont see Blizzard doing that, as much as most people think they loved both the cube and cauldron, it really makes the game boring, you just pick up 100's of items and salavaging over and over, there is no change in game play what so ever. I was so excited when i got in the beta, i had been waiting so long to get a taste of the game, and on my first play though, i was extremely disappointed, i found myself bored and not having that addictive feel like d2 had, i thought to myself, its beta and its short thats gotta be it, then blizzard announced beta 10 changes and it all made sense what was missing in the game that kept from having that feel, junk loot and going to town, sounds stupid i know. But it will make the game 10 out of 10.
eessh what a mess. I was talking about "picking up everything" vs "only items that are worthwhile to the player". Which was the original debate, the reasons that made blizzard removed the cubes.
You can go even further with this. Picking up all those whites, also takes extra time, because you have to go to them and of your optimal killing path more often.
People - cube/cauldron removal has NOTHING to do with WHITES. It was answered many times already, whats up with the fixation about non-existant thing?
But it does! With the CoJ, white items can be turned into gold very very easily!
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They still want the whites to be worth something, but is it worth Enough of the player's time and inventory space, the player will have to decide.
I believe that is what they are shooting for. They want the better items be like a present, identification be the opening of the box, then i would assume that the white items are like those tissue paper you stuff the gift bags with. They still have some value no?
Simply making whites worthless, would make it meaningless and pointless. As designers I'm pretty sure they want to make sure every mechanic, item, npc, skill, quest to have a little bit of meaning, or worth.
That's why originally they made whites to be salvagable and etc, but found that in the beta (and probably in internal testing too) players are wasting too much time running in circles picking up everything, and salvaging it, in order to craft.
This will for sure happen because salvaging lower level items still have a chance to be get higher level materials. Plus materials can be upgraded when you enter a new difficulty and after your blacksmith reach a certain skill level.
As for comparing the time spent going back to town vs how often to salvage a whole inventory, that is quite debatable. But one thing you did not take into account is the time players spent going around in circles picking up everything instead of running to the next area. I know its quite small, but it adds up. Back in D2 when you are in a group rushing from one place to another, there is no time to pick up anything. "grab the damn wp and lets go go go"
To be honest i see this as the skill-swapping issue, they first give us ultimate freedom, and people get used to it, and then change their mind and restricts it. Of course people wont be happy, but people still get used to it after a while.
Anyway, let's put this to rest for now how about it, wait for the new patch next week.
Because gold can be sold on the Real Market Auction House. I agree, for most players, they wouldn't pick up white items (heck, I probably wouldn't, unless I'm discovering items for the first time and want to see what they are).
But, if I want an item from the gold auction house that closes in, say, an hour, for the next 50 minutes I am going to be grinding to get as much gold as possible, both from monster drops and selling items. Yes, in your world, with white items having a selling cost of 0, it wouldn't matter, but it depends on a few factors:
a) How long it takes to get items
How long it takes to pick up the items
c) How long it takes to sell the items
d) How much gold you get from selling items
We can safely assume, all things being equal, that D remains constant. They haven't changed how much things sell for. So, to work out if it is worth to pick up white items and sell them, you've got to combine A, B, and C. Because the alternative is that you only pick up and sell Magic or better items. With the CoJ, the amount of time it takes to sell items is minimal.
Ideally, in the Beta, you would have 2 players. 1 who picks up everything and sells it through the CoJ, and another player who only picks up magic (or better) items and sells those. The problem is, we are trying to debate (I assume) Hell and Inferno drop rates, and we simply don't know what those are.
It is Not simply "10-15s vs 1-2 min"
I'm making numbers up here but, it could be (15s every 20min) vs (1 min every hour minus X seconds that you are in town anyway for quests/craft/skills)
Or any other number, depending on play style, area, difficulty, etc etc...
You have to see that players have to go back to town anyway, for quests and so forth. If you are in town already, how many extra seconds does it take to walk to the blacksmith?
Comparing to D2 with the D3 content we currently have, they intentionally make you go back to town a lot more.
So that is why I said it is debatable.
Also about making whites useless, what about blues? when you enter Hell, and Inferno, what are you going to do with blues? I'm sure they'll drop quite a lot too right? But they will still be worth something. With the cubes, the time sacrificed is so minimal that people will pick them up. So do we make blues useless?
The thing blizzard is trying to strike for is to force players make that decision, whether to be a garbage truck, and whether or not the items on the ground is worth the player's time and inventory space.
To be honest, I don't know how I feel about the CoJ and NC being dropped. On the one side I felt towns became obsolete if you look at it in a D2 sense. But in D3 you still needed to go back to change skills, use your stash, repair and also for crafting, so really you still needed to go to town. CoJ and NC just removed one more necessity, but clearly we still needed towns, now Blizzard has just doubled, maybe even tripled, the amount of trips you will be doing. Is that a good thing, I don't know?
For the argument about the blues, I was pointing out that making whites worthless is not the way to go, because it does not solve the problem of people behaving like garbage trucks. Once you are in higher difficulties, blues will take over, and people will still behave that way for those reasons I listed. That's why instead of making items worthless, blizzard removed the cubes.
Lastly, for their "forced decision making" There are forced restrictions everywhere in the game. Any game has them, tetris, chess... It's based on those restrictions that you get a game, you either do this or that, but you can't have the best of both worlds.
I don't really see deciding what to pickup shooting myself in the leg or arm or head... leaving things of value behind is not a punishment, every other rpg does it... you just have to find the right balance for you, picking up only items that are valuable enough for you...
I think we had enough of this, if you are going to pick on every bit of game design, if its smart or not, you'll probably go crazy. The skills, the stats, enhancements, crafting....
Busy week coming up
Im in beta, and with the new 2 second cast on TP, you could definitly do it all in 30-45 seconds, and the changes blizzard made in beta 10, will make the game go from a flop WoW easy mode style game, to an addictive fun D2 style game, how it should be.
Quit whining already, the changes are a good thing.
They would make a killing off it, i agree. But i dont see Blizzard doing that, as much as most people think they loved both the cube and cauldron, it really makes the game boring, you just pick up 100's of items and salavaging over and over, there is no change in game play what so ever. I was so excited when i got in the beta, i had been waiting so long to get a taste of the game, and on my first play though, i was extremely disappointed, i found myself bored and not having that addictive feel like d2 had, i thought to myself, its beta and its short thats gotta be it, then blizzard announced beta 10 changes and it all made sense what was missing in the game that kept from having that feel, junk loot and going to town, sounds stupid i know. But it will make the game 10 out of 10.
But it does! With the CoJ, white items can be turned into gold very very easily!