The removal of the Coj and the Neph Cube(really just the Coj the neph cube being in the blacksmith is fine) makes the game less fun to play with friends and more tedious.
When you are playing with others they will often not stop so that you can go back to town just to empty your inventory. Because of this you will be missing out on action and fun just so that you can sell items where previously you could quickly get rid of them anywhere. This really really takes a lot of fun out of the game.
I am playing through Diablo 2 with my girlfriend because she hasn't played it before and she likes picking up every item she sees so she can sell them, she's just that kind of player and gets enjoyment from it. However, because of that we have to go back to town literally every 5 minutes or so and it detracts from the gameplay. One of the things both of us love so much about diablo 3 is that you guys took out the tedious aspects of diablo 2. Hearing that you are getting rid of the CoJ is just heartbreaking. The CoJ is one of the first things I tell people about when talking about diablo 3 and everyone I've talked to has had a positive reaction toward it, usually something along the lines of: "That's a really good idea".
This just seems like a step backwards. Please don't make the game tedious, tons of players love to item hoard and this will just make them have to go back to town every few minutes.
When you are playing with others they will often not stop so that you can go back to town just to empty your inventory. Because of this you will be missing out on action and fun just so that you can sell items where previously you could quickly get rid of them anywhere. This really really takes a lot of fun out of the game.
Official Blizzard Quote:
then you will die. You're going to have to stick together to survive, and that's going to force groups to stop together. It's a lot better for everyone if that stopping point is in-town, for the aforementioned reason that not everyone takes the same amount of time to complete the same tasks, and there's more things that can be accomplished in town. Not to mention it's safer if you need to grab some more Cactus Cooler or take a bio break
text that wont copy because im on the phone.
That is absolutely the case, but you're not thinking about how that dynamic changes when the game is actually difficult. Beyond Normal if you take off to go clear that side room on your own and either you will die, the rest of your group will, or both.
As I posted in my thought about it.... I have mixed feelings... but without seeing how itn plays in late game, all we can do is trust them.
it feels very weird that they are going back on what they said about staying in the action... but according to his other post... at late game you still are out of the action as people are loking at the gear and getting rid of whats not an upgrade -shrugs-
This was a very interesting changed based on there early statements "keeping in the action" etc. As the poster above said all we can do is trust them.
If loot drop remains at the same rate as beta you would need to go back to town about every hour and that's only if you are picking up whites/greys but with the change to these being non salvageable why would you.
This was a very interesting changed based on there early statements "keeping in the action" etc. As the poster above said all we can do is trust them.
If loot drop remains at the same rate as beta you would need to go back to town about every hour and that's only if you are picking up whites/greys but with the change to these being non salvageable why would you.
well the said whites will not be worth the gold they sell for...so in late game (inferno) we wont even bother picking them up.
Its mixed for me as well, but I definitely think they have strong reasoning to backup their decision.
In the beta, people pick up everything, like a garbage truck, they do it until their inventory's full, and stop to salvage/sell. They dont even look at what's on the ground, everything's getting picked up. By removing the 2, players will have to make decisions, choose whats worthwhile and whats not, and only pick up items thats actually worth your time and inventory space.
Even though salvaging/selling with the cauldron and the cube was quick, if you multiply the time to salvage a whole inventory filled with white items by the number of times you do it (since they drop quite often), it's probably quite comparable to going back to town once in a while with more worthwhile items. The fact that you have to go back to town for quests, crafting, skill changes, and etc, also reduces the times where you have to go back to town just to sell/salvage.
Also, im not sure if this was one of their reasons, but i think it MAY also help the value of crafting materials and gold, especially since Blacksmith can upgrade crafting materials i think, which already devalues crafting materials in higher difficulties
In the beta, people pick up everything, like a garbage truck, they do it until their inventory's full, and stop to salvage/sell. They dont even look at what's on the ground, everything's getting picked up. By removing the 2, players will have to make decisions, choose whats worthwhile and whats not, and only pick up items thats actually worth your time and inventory space.
You miss the point whites were actually useful for salvage. If they are worthless, players wont pick them regardless if they have cube/cauldron, or not.
The problem is they were picking up EVERYTHING. If you've played D2, that's a ridiculous way to play and not what they intended. It's obvious why they went back on what they designed earlier.
They thought one thing, theoretically it fit, in practice the playerbase broke it, so they changed it.
To add on to things they removed doesn't anyone find it weird they removed Scroll of Identify and replaced it with the right click to identify with a cast time?
To add on to things they removed doesn't anyone find it weird they removed Scroll of Identify and replaced it with the right click to identify with a cast time?
Not saying it's a bad idea, just... weird...
I ...oddly... Really like that change..I mean its a bit sad to see them go, but truth be told I never used them much, i would always use mr cain. (But he was no longer doing it..) .so, really didnt care about them.
I also like the idea of the cast time (as long as its super short) as its only rares+ this time that need it.. that quick cast time adds a few more seconds to the "OH BOY OH BOY OH BOY, what did I get?" feeling.
To add on to things they removed doesn't anyone find it weird they removed Scroll of Identify and replaced it with the right click to identify with a cast time?
Not saying it's a bad idea, just... weird...
I ...oddly... Really like that change..I mean its a bit sad to see them go, but truth be told I never used them much, i would always use mr cain. So when him already not doing it... really didnt care about them.
I also like the idea of the cast time (as long as its super short) as its only rares+ this time that need it.. that quick cast time adds a few more seconds to the "OH BOY OH BOY OH BOY, what did I get?" feeling.
That's true, they really served no purpose after that quest in Act 1. And Jay himself said he liked the idea of "Finding and unwrapping your present.".
Like I said, it's not a bad thing just seems a bit odd. It's a "time will tell" kind of thing.
I ...oddly... Really like that change..I mean its a bit sad to see them go, but truth be told I never used them much, i would always use mr cain. (But he was no longer doing it..) .so, really didnt care about them.
I also like the idea of the cast time (as long as its super short) as its only rares+ this time that need it.. that quick cast time adds a few more seconds to the "OH BOY OH BOY OH BOY, what did I get?" feeling.
The change that you dont need Scrolls is ok... but I'm not sure if I like the idea of a cast time. If the cast time isnt super short it gets really hideous to identify your items... especially if you consider that you go back to town only if your inventory is full and have tons of Items in your Inventory even if the cast time is 1sec if you have 20 rares it gets "boring" to stand in town and identify them before you can salvage them... and with the "You will die if you dont stay with your group" philosophy you cant identify them on the fly either <_<
true, but I think lets say I 1 second cast, which is rather fast, wont slow your team down. I also dont see us using it that much..with only rares and legendaries needing this.. it seems like it will be fine (and add that second layer of I CANT WAIT). But yeah.. I very well could change my mind and hate it once I see what inferno is truly like..and see. But I dont see a 1 second cast being to to bad. It takes about 1 second to right click a scroll and then right click the item..so it evens out =P
maybe with CoJ and NC people will pick everything so it might lead to inflation very fast and one way to reduce it is to make gold and materials harder to collect, no?
With the new changes we can't really grasp how they are different from what we played in the beta as it wasn't enough game to get a grasp of how they impact the whole game.
However when it comes to the new ID'ing system and forcing people into town to sell salvage etc.
Perhaps you can make it so Cain is the only way to ID an item, that way people have to return to town at some point, it wont be as often as the current system but they can't really sit out there farming Goblins all day either.
Then have the Blacksmith to salvage Rare items and above, that way you give value in keeping the cubes in game to salvage the white/magic items.
It keeps some very tiny value to picking up white items making them worthwhile staying in the game.
My main concern is you guys are spewing that having your chacarter able to ID items is bad ass, but from a slightly RP value I don't want my Barb for example to have this "magic ability" I want him to be a total meat head that solves problems by smashing them.
well the said whites will not be worth the gold they sell for...so in late game (inferno) we wont even bother picking them up.
Can someone playing the beta please test and see the difference in sell price between a normal (white) version of an item and a magic (blue) version of an item, for instance between a normal and a magic Chain Mail armor piece. I'm really curious to see the gold comparison between the items; are magic items twice as valuable as normal items, or more or less. They will probably differ according to the affixes, which I'd also appreciate if someone would have a look just the variation in magic properties affect their sell prices.
I don't have beta access, so I can't test it myself
maybe with CoJ and NC people will pick everything so it might lead to inflation very fast and one way to reduce it is to make gold and materials harder to collect, no?
No, just make white trash worth pennies, and there would be no inflation because of it. Want even less extra gold in the system? Make whites worth nothing.
i guess you're right.... maybe they don't want you to pick all magic items
I was originally opposed to getting rid of them, but I now see the logic.
Okay, fair enough, white's aren't going to be used for crafting. That makes sense, because there's always a load of white items, so when you needed to craft something that used the salvage material for white items, you could go and get those in an instant.
Given white items aren't going to be used for crafting, then the only thing the thousands of white items that drop could have, is to be traded (which, at any level after 10 isn't going to happen) or sell for gold. With the Cube that turns everything into gold, and the ease of shift-clicking to easily sell what your want in your inventory, I'm sure most people, even at higher levels, picked up everything and sold it, because "There are a lot of gold sinks, you'll always want more gold."
With the Cube, the amount of time it took to clear your inventory was what, 5-10, maybe 15 seconds with a bunch of clicking? With needing to go back to town, you have to cast the portal, go back into town, go to the blacksmith in the town, then do all the clicking. It adds (essentially) a fixed time to how long it takes to convert items into gold. I'm not sure how long this will take, maybe 15 seconds, maybe 30 (depending on where the portal is relative to the blacksmith, and walking back to the portal) which could easily double or triple the amount of time it takes to convert items into gold.
So, now, it takes 3 times as long to turn all your items into gold. If you compare drop rates of white vs magic/rare etc versus the amount of gold you get for the item, it should work out that you are better off only picking up magic/rare etc. items, and travelling back to town to sell them, as opposed to continually filling up your inventory with everything that drops and selling it straight away.
Did any of you honestly think those two things were going to actually be apart of the game? I honestly thought they were just quick little additions for beta testing only.
They don't add anything to gameplay. As much as some of you guys hate it, the choice between vendoring trash and not vendoring trash is a decision you make as a player. Do you want to spend a little extra time to make a little extra gold, or not? Having these items would remove that decision completely. You would get bored of the game faster.
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So, now, it takes 3 times as long to turn all your items into gold. If you compare drop rates of white vs magic/rare etc versus the amount of gold you get for the item, it should work out that you are better off only picking up magic/rare etc. items, and travelling back to town to sell them, as opposed to continually filling up your inventory with everything that drops and selling it straight away.
(I hope that makes sense)
I'm sorry, it doesnt make sense. Players who play a lot (or farm items/mats), they do it efficiently. If whites are worthless (as stated by Bash), then players wont pick them even with cube/cauldron. Removing those absolutely doesnt help efficiency. Portaling and selling will take 1-2 mins, using cube - 10-15 sec on the fly. Do the math.
I honestly surprised some people come to the conclusion forced portals would help efficiency, its purpose is to REDUCE efficiency, and increase annoyance for the players, it in Blizz minds is equal to increasing fun.
The people who farm the most will be the quickest clickers. If gold is such an important commodity, as we keep being told, then with the CoJ, it will be beneficial to pick up everything, and sell it (assuming the quick clicking takes very little time, and you can still move whilst selling things). Some people would even write scripts such that when they press (for example) Ctrl + 0 on the Numpad, it loads a script to bring up the inventory and quickly sells the 20 most recent items picked up (by controlling the mouse, so it can't be detected on Blizz's servers, despite it being a violation of the ToC). This doesn't make it equal for everyone.
I'm sorry, it doesnt make sense. Players who play a lot (or farm items/mats), they do it efficiently. If whites are worthless (as stated by Bash), then players wont pick them even with cube/cauldron. Removing those absolutely doesnt help efficiency. Portaling and selling will take 1-2 mins, using cube - 10-15 sec on the fly. Do the math.
Well, since you now need to go all the way back to town, you will need to go more often if you pick up whites. Without the CoJ you will most likely only stick to blues. But with the CoJ, I think a lot of people will (I know I would) pick up whites to quickly break them down for a few quick gold pieces. I think the ratio of time spent vs gold earned really doesn't make it worth the effort. And I think Blizzard noticed this, since they intend whites to be junk items, but people still probably CoJ'ed them for minimal gold. They also removed white scrap, so Blizzard also probably figured that it wasn't the effort to do that either.
1. The beta takes maybe an hour to an hour and a half to complete. (solo virgin run to a SK kill, killing everything, probably even faster than this in a group)
2. The beta comprises about a third of Act 1 (admitted by Blizzard).
Given 1 and 2, the entire content could be experienced in 20-24 hours of gameplay, obviously just Normal Difficulty, with some extra time thrown in for the later acts being longer/more difficult.
3. Blizzard's main focus for Diablo 3 is co-op play. (again admitted by Blizzard)
4. Due to each person getting different loot from each kill, their inventory will fill up at different rates.
5. The game could be very hard to play on later difficulties without all members present and doing their part.(Blizzard, again)
It can be inferred from 3 and 4 that being in a group, while supposedly increasing the monster kill rate thereby increasing the rate at which loot drops and is collected, will also increase the frequency of pauses required by the group for people to go back to town and sell/break down items in their inventory. Also, because of 5, success of the group could depend on everybody being in the same area if they're trying to clear content.
6. Every magic item is worth something, either gold or crafting materials once broken down, or on one of the auction houses.
Now that the cube is gone, 6 means that you will feel obligated to pause and return to town to break down EVERY blue or above quality item.
7. Some people still like to pick up absolutely everything.
Having one of these people in a group with white items still worth something would be annoying at the very least, and would no doubt drive many people to leaving the group, given that inventory would fill up every 5-10 minutes. Solution? Make white items useless.
TL;DR: I think you can see where I'm going here, and I probably missed a couple more points, but in a nutshell, this is a conscious effort to make the game take longer to play, without increasing the annoyance factor so much as to make it unbearable for those who like to play fast and hard. While I think they are incredibly hypocritical for going back on their stance of 'trying to keep players in the action', it makes good sense from a 'designery' point of view.
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I have my own reasons to drink, I think I'll call my Dad up and invite him.
I'm an adult now... (TPOH)
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When you are playing with others they will often not stop so that you can go back to town just to empty your inventory. Because of this you will be missing out on action and fun just so that you can sell items where previously you could quickly get rid of them anywhere. This really really takes a lot of fun out of the game.
I am playing through Diablo 2 with my girlfriend because she hasn't played it before and she likes picking up every item she sees so she can sell them, she's just that kind of player and gets enjoyment from it. However, because of that we have to go back to town literally every 5 minutes or so and it detracts from the gameplay. One of the things both of us love so much about diablo 3 is that you guys took out the tedious aspects of diablo 2. Hearing that you are getting rid of the CoJ is just heartbreaking. The CoJ is one of the first things I tell people about when talking about diablo 3 and everyone I've talked to has had a positive reaction toward it, usually something along the lines of: "That's a really good idea".
This just seems like a step backwards. Please don't make the game tedious, tons of players love to item hoard and this will just make them have to go back to town every few minutes.
Official Blizzard Quote:
then you will die. You're going to have to stick together to survive, and that's going to force groups to stop together. It's a lot better for everyone if that stopping point is in-town, for the aforementioned reason that not everyone takes the same amount of time to complete the same tasks, and there's more things that can be accomplished in town. Not to mention it's safer if you need to grab some more Cactus Cooler or take a bio break
text that wont copy because im on the phone.
That is absolutely the case, but you're not thinking about how that dynamic changes when the game is actually difficult. Beyond Normal if you take off to go clear that side room on your own and either you will die, the rest of your group will, or both.
As I posted in my thought about it.... I have mixed feelings... but without seeing how itn plays in late game, all we can do is trust them.
it feels very weird that they are going back on what they said about staying in the action... but according to his other post... at late game you still are out of the action as people are loking at the gear and getting rid of whats not an upgrade -shrugs-
tuff call on this one.
If loot drop remains at the same rate as beta you would need to go back to town about every hour and that's only if you are picking up whites/greys but with the change to these being non salvageable why would you.
well the said whites will not be worth the gold they sell for...so in late game (inferno) we wont even bother picking them up.
In the beta, people pick up everything, like a garbage truck, they do it until their inventory's full, and stop to salvage/sell. They dont even look at what's on the ground, everything's getting picked up. By removing the 2, players will have to make decisions, choose whats worthwhile and whats not, and only pick up items thats actually worth your time and inventory space.
Even though salvaging/selling with the cauldron and the cube was quick, if you multiply the time to salvage a whole inventory filled with white items by the number of times you do it (since they drop quite often), it's probably quite comparable to going back to town once in a while with more worthwhile items. The fact that you have to go back to town for quests, crafting, skill changes, and etc, also reduces the times where you have to go back to town just to sell/salvage.
Also, im not sure if this was one of their reasons, but i think it MAY also help the value of crafting materials and gold, especially since Blacksmith can upgrade crafting materials i think, which already devalues crafting materials in higher difficulties
My thoughts exactly!
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They thought one thing, theoretically it fit, in practice the playerbase broke it, so they changed it.
Not saying it's a bad idea, just... weird...
I ...oddly... Really like that change..I mean its a bit sad to see them go, but truth be told I never used them much, i would always use mr cain. (But he was no longer doing it..) .so, really didnt care about them.
I also like the idea of the cast time (as long as its super short) as its only rares+ this time that need it.. that quick cast time adds a few more seconds to the "OH BOY OH BOY OH BOY, what did I get?" feeling.
That's true, they really served no purpose after that quest in Act 1. And Jay himself said he liked the idea of "Finding and unwrapping your present.".
Like I said, it's not a bad thing just seems a bit odd. It's a "time will tell" kind of thing.
true, but I think lets say I 1 second cast, which is rather fast, wont slow your team down. I also dont see us using it that much..with only rares and legendaries needing this.. it seems like it will be fine (and add that second layer of I CANT WAIT). But yeah.. I very well could change my mind and hate it once I see what inferno is truly like..and see. But I dont see a 1 second cast being to to bad. It takes about 1 second to right click a scroll and then right click the item..so it evens out =P
However when it comes to the new ID'ing system and forcing people into town to sell salvage etc.
Perhaps you can make it so Cain is the only way to ID an item, that way people have to return to town at some point, it wont be as often as the current system but they can't really sit out there farming Goblins all day either.
Then have the Blacksmith to salvage Rare items and above, that way you give value in keeping the cubes in game to salvage the white/magic items.
It keeps some very tiny value to picking up white items making them worthwhile staying in the game.
My main concern is you guys are spewing that having your chacarter able to ID items is bad ass, but from a slightly RP value I don't want my Barb for example to have this "magic ability" I want him to be a total meat head that solves problems by smashing them.
Views?
I don't have beta access, so I can't test it myself
i guess you're right.... maybe they don't want you to pick all magic items
Okay, fair enough, white's aren't going to be used for crafting. That makes sense, because there's always a load of white items, so when you needed to craft something that used the salvage material for white items, you could go and get those in an instant.
Given white items aren't going to be used for crafting, then the only thing the thousands of white items that drop could have, is to be traded (which, at any level after 10 isn't going to happen) or sell for gold. With the Cube that turns everything into gold, and the ease of shift-clicking to easily sell what your want in your inventory, I'm sure most people, even at higher levels, picked up everything and sold it, because "There are a lot of gold sinks, you'll always want more gold."
With the Cube, the amount of time it took to clear your inventory was what, 5-10, maybe 15 seconds with a bunch of clicking? With needing to go back to town, you have to cast the portal, go back into town, go to the blacksmith in the town, then do all the clicking. It adds (essentially) a fixed time to how long it takes to convert items into gold. I'm not sure how long this will take, maybe 15 seconds, maybe 30 (depending on where the portal is relative to the blacksmith, and walking back to the portal) which could easily double or triple the amount of time it takes to convert items into gold.
So, now, it takes 3 times as long to turn all your items into gold. If you compare drop rates of white vs magic/rare etc versus the amount of gold you get for the item, it should work out that you are better off only picking up magic/rare etc. items, and travelling back to town to sell them, as opposed to continually filling up your inventory with everything that drops and selling it straight away.
(I hope that makes sense)
They don't add anything to gameplay. As much as some of you guys hate it, the choice between vendoring trash and not vendoring trash is a decision you make as a player. Do you want to spend a little extra time to make a little extra gold, or not? Having these items would remove that decision completely. You would get bored of the game faster.
The people who farm the most will be the quickest clickers. If gold is such an important commodity, as we keep being told, then with the CoJ, it will be beneficial to pick up everything, and sell it (assuming the quick clicking takes very little time, and you can still move whilst selling things). Some people would even write scripts such that when they press (for example) Ctrl + 0 on the Numpad, it loads a script to bring up the inventory and quickly sells the 20 most recent items picked up (by controlling the mouse, so it can't be detected on Blizz's servers, despite it being a violation of the ToC). This doesn't make it equal for everyone.
1. The beta takes maybe an hour to an hour and a half to complete. (solo virgin run to a SK kill, killing everything, probably even faster than this in a group)
2. The beta comprises about a third of Act 1 (admitted by Blizzard).
Given 1 and 2, the entire content could be experienced in 20-24 hours of gameplay, obviously just Normal Difficulty, with some extra time thrown in for the later acts being longer/more difficult.
3. Blizzard's main focus for Diablo 3 is co-op play. (again admitted by Blizzard)
4. Due to each person getting different loot from each kill, their inventory will fill up at different rates.
5. The game could be very hard to play on later difficulties without all members present and doing their part.(Blizzard, again)
It can be inferred from 3 and 4 that being in a group, while supposedly increasing the monster kill rate thereby increasing the rate at which loot drops and is collected, will also increase the frequency of pauses required by the group for people to go back to town and sell/break down items in their inventory. Also, because of 5, success of the group could depend on everybody being in the same area if they're trying to clear content.
6. Every magic item is worth something, either gold or crafting materials once broken down, or on one of the auction houses.
Now that the cube is gone, 6 means that you will feel obligated to pause and return to town to break down EVERY blue or above quality item.
7. Some people still like to pick up absolutely everything.
Having one of these people in a group with white items still worth something would be annoying at the very least, and would no doubt drive many people to leaving the group, given that inventory would fill up every 5-10 minutes. Solution? Make white items useless.
TL;DR: I think you can see where I'm going here, and I probably missed a couple more points, but in a nutshell, this is a conscious effort to make the game take longer to play, without increasing the annoyance factor so much as to make it unbearable for those who like to play fast and hard. While I think they are incredibly hypocritical for going back on their stance of 'trying to keep players in the action', it makes good sense from a 'designery' point of view.
I have my own reasons to drink, I think I'll call my Dad up and invite him.
I'm an adult now... (TPOH)