I'm guessing the "unattuned rune" idea is that whenever you change skills, the skill you just added loses the rune effect for some time? That sounds like a pretty smart way to go about it.
You can read about the proposed "unattuned" rune system here.
As for the discussion on swapping skills, I do think they'll add in some sort of mechanic to prevent it being done literally on a whim like we're seeing in the beta videos. Be that a cooldown, a gold cost, or something else. That said, I agree with Jack that it really won't be that big of a problem, even without any changes to the current system. It's completely unreasonable to extrapolate what we're seeing in the beta to how the game will function at level 60. Swapping skills at 60 will require you to analyze the pros and cons of doing so with respect to the rest of your skills/build, runes, upcoming encounters, etc. We won't be seeing people swapping out skills just to try something new or because they need to Teleport somewhere.
Re-introduce skill points at the very least, and give the option to allocate your stats manually.
Allow the option for respecs.
Put a gold sink on them that becomes more expensive each time you use it OR only allow one per 10 levels gained (or something like that). Not unlimited, but not too many. You have to play with your choices in the game. I think 2 respecs is way more than enough for a player like me, but I figure someone who wants to try a bunch of builds can do it with 5. Possibly make it so where you can run out of respecs and have to make a new character to get more after 5, 10, 20, I don't know. Sometimes harsh restriction is far more rewarding than too much freedom. Even if you think this is harsh, restrictions like this (as in Diablo II) added to longevity and replayability.
Allow skills to be powered past max level, as in Diablo II.
Items with +to skills or +to all skills were so critical in Diablo II to deciding what kind of items you were seeking. Without these kind of things, what is it we're looking for? + random numbers? +100% armor? These items provide so much more to the game because as a Blizzard Sorc, you KNOW you want Death's Fathom, Snowclash, and so on to provide your Blizzard with that much more "OOMPH". Am I the only one who had that general "awe" at comparing your character to someone else who knew how to do it and is absolutely crushing the Nine Hells under his foot? "I want to do that!" It doesn't seem like that will be possible in D3.
Reconsider synergies
I realize that synergies were changed to add life to a dying game, but the idea is brilliant. Skills that somehow power your other skills? With how many different iterations of skills there can be thanks to runes, this idea could REALLY take off in Diablo 3.
Bear in mind that I really do like the introduction of runes as skill modifiers. That's awesome. That just adds a huge level of customization to the game. I think they realized that they bit off more than they could chew in balancing, and just got rid of skills to compensate. There HAS to be a way to incorporate this new system with the system of old, and have them work together in harmony. As of right now, it doesn't really make sense to watch a Monk fight a bunch of mobs, change his skill to heal, and then head back into battle. It's awkward, and Blizzard KNOWS they can do better than THAT nonsense.
In closing, I have to say that I really think a modification of the old skill system with some new friendly (but not too friendly) respecs is what this game sorely needs. I can't imagine wanting to keep playing this game for too long after finding my favorite class and beating the game. Diablo II survived and was so much fun for so long because of this skill system and specific items that rewarded you for focusing on building your Blizzard sorc (or whatever character) and taking the time to research how, where, and what. If they keep with this "all skills for every class" nonsense, I think those of us intelligent enough to understand why it isn't fun will move on rather quickly. Quite frankly, that's a lot of us, and that's a lot of future customers lost. It worries me greatly, because what this game was took such a nose dive for me in the last few months that it becomes more and more upsetting the more I learn. I am just one guy, and I don't claim to have all the answers. I hope you guys find some insight from this and hopefully together we might be able to change a few things :). Thanks for reading!
Going to remove your 'problems' because I don't agree with any of them.
Going to quickly rebut your improvements here
1) Please god actually READ the reasons why skill points were removed. Any system with skill points WILL lead to a situation where you max x number of skills. If you don't have enough to max 6, then you'll max 5, or 4, or however many. If they gave us 60 skill points and the max skill level were 10, we'd max 6, if it were 15 we'd max 4. There would be EXACTLY the same level of customization as if they didn't have skill points.
As to customizing stats, stat customization removes the immersion from the game - why? Because you're spending all your time looking at numbers in stead of slaughtering monsters.
2) Respecs just force people to spend more time in town - again removing you from the fun of the game. All a respec does is force a person to go back to town - you still can 'respec' so to speak, you just get to do it where you want to when you want to in stead of having to go back to town and interrupt your slaughter.
3) Skills CAN be powered past max level. The attack stat effects all damage, and there are also affixes like "Increase x class's damage" or "Increase x damage type by %". Just stack the right gear, and your skills get stronger.
4) Three problems with this: 1) It is contingent upon skill points, which I've already covered above. 2) Synergies were only used to provide an incentive to put skill points into abilities you had no intention of using. They weren't a good idea, they were just the best possible solution to a heavily flawed system - not to mention the fact that synergies in d3 would only lead to people just using 2 abilities again, and powering those abilities up with synergistic abilities they didn't have any intention of using which is counter to the game design. 3) The game already HAS synergies in the most important way - abilities compliment each other very well. For example, all of the abilities a melee wizard will use all work together to make the build possible. That is TRUE synergy... not some random +damage given to one ability because you picked another ability you didn't want to begin with.
Yea im not gonna lie I feel that giving us all the skills was not the best answer for the problem in skill trees, but since then I've dipped my head in acceptance. I will say that after watching all of these videos it still doesn't feel right. I just can't fathom how these characters we are rolling just level every single skill up as they kill. I mean how in the world am I getting any better with fireballs if I am shooting force blast and electric beams at everything. This said I really have gotten the over the fact that we are gonna get every skill.
Skills have still lost a level of immersion as they currently are and I'll get over it if they don't change anything on them...maybe lol ... but I was thinking of a way that they could bring that lil bit of immersion back Tell me what you guys think.
What if we have to use the skills to level them up? So say I am a lvl 1 wizard and I start with arcane missles and frost nova. So I am using the skills. and some system similar to like the weapon skills and fishing skill in the game that shall not be mentioned has keeps track of all of that so when you level up to lvl 2 if you had enough points or whatever system would track that info the skills level up with you like they already do. Now at level 3 I have level Ice armor unlocked but only currently do I have 2 active skills. So I test it out and I decide I am going to use ice armor and arcane missles and for the entire level I never use Ice Nova. So when I hit level three my ice armor goes up one because I used it, and my arcane missles go up because I used them, but my nova stays level 2 until I use it enough to catch it up. Now this will be even greater when you have all 6 active skills open and will bring a greater level of immersion back to the skill game with out them having to scrap the current system completely.
Hopefully I worded that well enough what do you guys think?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds."
Well flaw, it's simple. The more you use any magic, your total magical power grows. Thus, since you know HOW to cast fireball, since you now have more overall magic, your ability to put more power into fireball grows as well.
Think of it not as a person who has 5 reservoirs(one for fire one for ice one for arcane one for lightning one for force) but rather as a person who has one reservoir: Arcane Power. And that reservoir can be channeled into any form of magic they need as long as they know how to perform that magic. So as that reservoir grows, so does the power of each spell cast from it.
Same goes for a barbarian... if he uses Bash 10000 times his muscles are gonna grow. So when he goes to throw that spear, his muscles are gonna be able to throw it that much harder.
Or a monk, whose power comes from his attunement with his god, if my memory serves me correctly. The more he achieves that level of attunement, the more all of his powers will grow, thus explaining why even the abilities he doesn't use become more potent.
Well flaw, it's simple. The more you use any magic, your total magical power grows. Thus, since you know HOW to cast fireball, since you now have more overall magic, your ability to put more power into fireball grows as well.
Think of it not as a person who has 5 reservoirs(one for fire one for ice one for arcane one for lightning one for force) but rather as a person who has one reservoir: Arcane Power. And that reservoir can be channeled into any form of magic they need as long as they know how to perform that magic. So as that reservoir grows, so does the power of each spell cast from it.
Same goes for a barbarian... if he uses Bash 10000 times his muscles are gonna grow. So when he goes to throw that spear, his muscles are gonna be able to throw it that much harder.
Or a monk, whose power comes from his attunement with his god, if my memory serves me correctly. The more he achieves that level of attunement, the more all of his powers will grow, thus explaining why even the abilities he doesn't use become more potent.
etc.
Yea I like what your saying there youre speaking in terms of synergy. But I feel it is still unreasonable to think that all skills are mastered to max possible currently. I mean a barbarian grows his muscles by using bash so he can put more more power behind his weapon throw. It doesnt mean he can aim his throws well. A mage uses fire balls and arcane missiles and learns to use more power into their spells doesn't mean they've masterd magic enough to keep a prolonged casing of diamonds around they're body. I'm just saying it would be cool if they added a system that tracked use of skills maybe they could put synergies in that as well like using fire ball also helps build some skill to skills that are related I.E. meteor, but I think synergies in that would cause some other logic issues with the rune system saying how much that can change skills.
So do you think its a horrible Idea or were you just trying to help me expand my imagination lol
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds."
Honestly, I don't like those systems usually. I find systems that force you to constantly use abilities to be able to use them are kind of frustrating. If it's done REALLY well in a looooong game then it's not so bad. But in a high action game - which is what Diablo is supposed to be, an action rpg, it just ends up being problematic.
Since skills don't have ranks or points, the attribute wouldn't work. There are definitely +ice damage or +monk damage etc... but +skills is kind of impossible.
I think the actual system is flawed and have a major problem.
Theres no character customisation in the game past items. For people that played RTS, change skills and even runes in the middle of combat will be easy if it's allowed. I can reach 200+ APM. Change a skill is only 3 actions (change a skill and a rune is 6 actions). Wich mean i change my skill and runes in about 2~3 seconds. The consequencies of this exploit is really high:
Part of the gameplay will consist of quickly picking differ menu options (sucks)
Well prepared players will carry a bunch of runes, bringing back the same issues of the D2 charm system.
All high skilled players will have the exect same character, since they can swap items and skills at will. Maybe each class will be divided between some major item mods (crits or dmg, for example), but this FAR from real character customisation.
Level ups have no meaning. Allocating points after lvl ups is just really rewarding and the reason why so much people play rpgs. Seriously, right now people lvl up and don't even notice. You get some bonus in damage and resistance, but not choosing anything.. I don't know... I think a major chunck of the fun of lvling was removed from D3. A shame if you ask me. Part of the game is screwed =/
Blizzard has specifically said a few times that they've designed the game for the people who choose one set of skills and stick with it. Sure some people will find ways to eke out 2% more power by swapping, but the people who don't aren't being punished for that fact. Which I think negates most of that problem.
The fact that you think a majority will hotswap abilities is I think perhaps a flaw in your logic... I really don't think that more than maybe a tenth even of the top top players will do so. I know I won't - and I'm usually a fairly skilled gamer at most games I play.
Leveling up gives a significant boost to power, access to new gear, new runes, and such. To me that does make it highly rewarding.
I wonder if Blizzard even cares if you switch skills mid combat, macro or not. Diablo is not like WoW, where PvE is highly competitive, with a lot of focus being put on who's progressed furthest in a new dungeon, who is in first place on your realm, etc. In Diablo, at most you're playing with 3 other people. The rest of the Diablo community really shouldn't care if you have a marginal advantage. Unless I'm missing something major.
If you are somehow able to trivialize some encounters because you can change skills on the fly, what does that get you? A barely faster dungeon clear? Whoop-de-do. I'm just not seeing how it matters. On the other hand, it might remove the challenges those encounters present, which I think only degrades your own experience.
Personally, I think having some kind of significant cooldown on skill switching would only serve to disrupt and annoy, particularly when I first get a new skill. "Oh cool, let me try this out. Hmmm, naaa, I don't like that. WHAT? I have to wait 10 minutes before I can change it back?!?" Just not cool.
Jay Wilson has already talked a fair bit about why they stopped using skill points. I don't think I need to reiterate it.
Wow, glad to see a bunch of discussion on this topic! I'll try and respond to everyone I can..but let me preface with a few points. Warning, another wall of text incoming :).
Diablo II had a flawed skill system. That doesn't make it wrong by any means. Skill trees are a staple of RPGs nowadays partially due to Diablo II's success. You can do this kind of system right--to scrap it last minute (definitely last minute in in terms of development) and totally change what the game is is just reckless. You all wouldn't be here if you didn't at least partially enjoy the system. So as much hate as some of you give it, it still had you playing, meaning it was doing something right. Why not fix the wrongs instead of trying to sweep it under the rug?
Beta isn't a true portion of the game. This is definitely true. But you can see how the skill system will pan out as you have the mechanics of it presented to you. What you don't see is runes, but that isn't really what is under debate. Runes can do a number of things I'm sure, but they can't fix what doesn't work in the first place (my opinion).
Finally, some of you say that you don't HAVE to swap skills on the fly. That argument is entirely invalid. Sure, I don't have to. But people will do it. The game will be balanced around that, and even if I didn't swap skills at all, some encounters down the road would force me to since everyone else is. If Blizzard gave you a bag that spawned a Legendary every 5 minutes, wouldn't it be stupid to ignore it? ESPECIALLY since money is on the line for some of these people. You have to realize how the addition of a proper RMAH will create a frenzy in those doing macros, skill swaps, mods (if possible, which I'm sure will happen no matter what) and thus force changes that you might not even want into the game.
That being said, let me address everyone I can as best I can...
Tons of aspects in Diablo 2 were just tedious. Making a new character because you fucked up was one of them (prior to the respec-ability implemented in Act 1). I'd rather have one great Barbarian, one great Wizard and one great Demon Hunter than a few shitty ones. When I play a game I want to go all out with whatever I do.
The ability to respecs saves me the trouble of remaking my badass character from scratch and I can whenever I feel like it swap from my super-tanky Barbarian to my Über-damage Barbarian and have a completely different gaming experience. I think that's pretty neat. With that said, I still believe all characters will have some skills that are absolute essentials. As I've already made some Barbarian examples, lets continue down that route. I'm a hardcore player, always was, and in hardcore survivability was key (now you can just go to whatever monster you want and bash them in the face using Berserk, not giving a fuck), you'd focus everything that made you harder to kill. Iron Skin, Leap Attack, Natural Resistances, Battle Orders, Shout, etc. etc.
It will be the same thing in D3. Some skills will always be viable (or more viable than others). Leap you will need to survive, Taunt you will need to take attention from your squishy friends and you'll need Seismic Slam for crowd control and whatnot. It's impossible to avoid this since different gametypes (SC vs HC) require different playstyles and different approaches.
And some of the stuff you mention are a direct product of the fact that D3 is still in the beta stages with only about an hour of content so far. What you can do is severely limited.
Lets take item stats and their impact on your character for example (you phrased it as lack of connection to the character). Picking up a pair of magical boots that give +1 Defense. "Yay, now I can throw out my Crude Dog Hide Boots.". Then after a few more minutes of playing you find another pair of magic boots, which, lo and behold, give +2 Defense - a whooping 1 Defense difference! "Oh snap, I better make sure these boots are 100% better than the old ones." *opens character screen*.
Seriously, with items at low level having such a small impact on the characters stats, there really isn't much point in opening that tab. I have no doubt you'll start comparing stuff at a later level though where items most likely will have several different stat-modifiers with widely varying values (ranging from +20 to +70).
As for +to all skills modifiers... why? The way skills work in D3 has changed a lot from D2. Most skills are based around a fixed damage or percentage multiplied with a percentage of your characters main/off-hand weapons damage. Meaning, the fatter my loot gets, the fatter my skills get and subsequently - the fatter my character gets. It's a win-win situation. In D2, only the characters who circled around physical damage had real benefits from improved weapons - now everyone benefits from improved weapons.
And much of what you mention can be fixed quite simply: play a hardcore character. There's no way in hell (literally) that you will stay alive with one forever, especially since everyone in the first few months of the game will be pioneers, finding out the hard way how to do things right. Why hardcore fixes a lot of the issues you mention kind of explains itself. You die. You make a new character. Your last spec / item build didn't work so well. New spec / items will be different. etc. etc.
That's my two cents. For now anyway.
The system in Diablo II forced you to remake a character if you wanted any chance of maxing your character's potential. The plus side is that if you knew what was up, leveling wasn't hard. The downside is that it is a huge problem to have to make a new character all over again to achieve what you want. That part of the game is something that could easily be solved by some respecs. If you don't limit them, you'll have unlimited freedom and we're back to square one. If you do, and you include skill points, you can customize how you want, but you'll also be punished if you keep screwing up. This is a good thing. Most punishments are bad, but some that force you to have a challenge can be good. I'm not saying that being able to change your character is bad. But, the process to getting the character you want is so diluted and easy now. Again, limited respecs would allow your character to change if he wants (but not an unlimited amount of times) and if you ever hit that wall or wanted more respecs you could make another character of the same class (thus solving the "not making another character of the same class" conundrum).
I'm all for improving your skills' power through items. Higher level skills mean more effects, usually. More magic missles, more Hydras, more Charged Bolts, whatever. Diablo 2 had this, for sure. But you were improving on skills you chose and skills that made your character yours. I'd rather feel more connection to these improvements because ultimately this connection to your character is what makes you want to further his ability. With your character being a bland, auto-leveling shell, you lose part of the motivation for improving him because it isn't like you pushed your character to be "all about skill [x]". Because he isn't all about a certain skill or two that you chose, you don't get nearly as much out of a Snowclash, or Death's Fathom, or Homunculus.
This would be especially true if the new "unattuned rune" idea that Jay Wilson discussed comes to fruition. Yeah, you can change your skills on the fly, but there's no reason to until you're rich enough to have the correct rune for that skill with the better modifiers. Also, if you have a top of the line rune that you worked hard to get, are you going to swap away from that skill? No, otherwise you wouldn't have worked so hard for that rune.
Obviously, a ton of this will depend on the scarcity of upper level runes and the actual difficulty of hell/inferno. But these are things that Blizzard can easily balance for. I have to believe that they have truly thought this through.
Now, this doesn't address the legitimate problem of "why would I level a new witch doctor?" The "leveling" of the new one will actually be just finding the runes for that new "build" you want.
Similarly, hopefully your armor/weapons/gear will make changing skills at a whim harder as your gear isn't as effective anymore.
Firstly, we all can pretty much guess that the skill system is going to change at the VERY least to have restrictions on swapping. However, in a system that touts being able to be whatever type of [insert class here] you want, does it not seem like a last minute penalty they added if they choose to destroy runes on swap? If a system like this is in place, then not only are they going to have the meta-gaming they DIDN'T want early on when runes aren't important, but they are ALSO going to have the standard builds once each build has been researched. To me, I'd rather choose the path that MEANS something to get to the standard builds rather than the path that I feel adds an awkward level of freedom. Not to mention that also destroys any reasoning behind building another character of the same class. In my opinion, relying on solely on items to dictate how your character works is taking away from the experience, not adding to it. I like to feel like my character means something with or without items, and that's not something possible for me and many others in the current build of Diablo 3.
I have been reading a lot of feedback on blizzard's d3 forum, quite many of them are concerned about the skill set swapping issue. Some people are saying that runes will prevent it, but at this moment we have little information on runes mechanism.
Remember how 1 skill pt in corpse explosion and teleport in d2 was good enough?
It is very likely that there will be skills (all maxed) in d3 like that, where runes do not make much of a difference for the purpose of the skill. For example, buff/debuff or escape skills. You can use your buff/debuff, and when you see the need, switch that to a escape/movement skill.
What I am saying here is that, Blizzard decided on the 6 skill slot to force us make hard decisions. 6 skills out of 20. But its system right now is going the opposite direction than their philosophy.
If we can use macro to quickly switch skills, we can potentially have more than 6 skills (all maxed) at our hand.
I am sure that runes will make skills different, but not the same degree of alteration to each skill. For those skills where rune effects are negligible, and does not improve its intended purpose, people will just get more skills.
Also, for those rich kids (or people play endelessly) they may able to put a rune in all the skills they need, maybe all 20 if allowed. You can say well they spent their money/time, and they deserve it. But you have to question, is this the way blizzard want the game to turn out?
This is another driving point for me. I don't feel like having a skill that has decent utility with one point into it means it was a bad skill. Teleport in Diablo 2 used to have to be maxed out for Sorceresses before +skill items became the norm. Otherwise, it made it entirely too slow to rely on. Is a skill bad if it only requires one point? Escape skills (Teleport, Leap, etc.), buffs (Energy Shield, Thunder Shield, Chilling Armor), and the like? I don't think so. Sure, sometimes skills are poorly designed. This new system is not going to fix that just like the old system of skill points would not make it worse.
Precisely. Limiting skills to 6 and then allowing people to switch in two seconds whenever they want just doesn't make sense. My first thought when I heard this was 'Guild Wars', but in guild wars you can only change skills outside of adventuring areas.
I was also going to point out that you'd probably able to create macros through a 3rd party program that switch skills for you in an instant, but you beat me to it
The rune system may end up making us feel like we are (gently?) committing to "our chosen skills". We don't know enough yet, but I want to say that character differentiation is very important. Nobody wants to feel like he's just one clone of many, with the only difference being their items.
I'm guessing the "unattuned rune" idea is that whenever you change skills, the skill you just added loses the rune effect for some time? That sounds like a pretty smart way to go about it.
I didn't think Guild Wars was a bad game. I enjoyed it back in the day. It just isn't the same type of game as Diablo 3 at all. A skill system like they are showing us now CAN fit in some games. I don't think it fits into a hack n' slash RPG, though. You can't have a system like this and expect many people not to use or abuse it to the fullest. Macros are not hard at all to program into your hardware, so why would you NOT use them? To me, no matter what anyone says the rune system is going to be or how it's going to work, it will, at best, put a band-aid on a flawed system.
I don't think most people feel its obligatory, I think most people will think it would be annoying to put yourself in a situation where you'll need to swap out skills all the time, and will instead aim to pick 6 skills that cover all their needs and stick with those, while only sometimes swapping in different skills that are similar, say one combo point builder for another on the monk or whatever.
I know that I definitely will not be hot-swapping skills all the time but will stick with my core 6 and only change to try something different from time to time.
There are a lot of people who will just be too lazy to change their skills and use what they have. That's fine, I'm okay with that. There are plenty of games I've played where I've said: "I can probably be doing this a lot better but I just don't care enough." The problem with that is this: So many things are influenced by the skill system and the maximum efficiency one can attain from it. Difficulty of the game, quality of drops, skill balance, boss balance, restrictions, and so forth. Because every character has every skill at their fingertips, then a game has to be rebalanced from the ground up. A decision like this has more weight than they probably hoped for. There are some monsters in Diablo II that are resistant or immune to some elements. Whether or not they are prevalent in Diablo 3 is relatively unknown. However, as hard as a monster is or as resistant as he is, you will never have an issue with your character destroying it unless you're severely underleveled. From a balance standpoint, all characters have to be able to solo the game, and because each character has each skill, you will not find yourself in a situation where your skill swap can't defeat anything the game throws at you. It certainly doesn't give a "need" to play with anyone else you don't know, though. And that's bad.
1) Please god actually READ the reasons why skill points were removed. Any system with skill points WILL lead to a situation where you max x number of skills. If you don't have enough to max 6, then you'll max 5, or 4, or however many. If they gave us 60 skill points and the max skill level were 10, we'd max 6, if it were 15 we'd max 4. There would be EXACTLY the same level of customization as if they didn't have skill points.
As to customizing stats, stat customization removes the immersion from the game - why? Because you're spending all your time looking at numbers in stead of slaughtering monsters.
2) Respecs just force people to spend more time in town - again removing you from the fun of the game. All a respec does is force a person to go back to town - you still can 'respec' so to speak, you just get to do it where you want to when you want to in stead of having to go back to town and interrupt your slaughter.
3) Skills CAN be powered past max level. The attack stat effects all damage, and there are also affixes like "Increase x class's damage" or "Increase x damage type by %". Just stack the right gear, and your skills get stronger.
4) Three problems with this: 1) It is contingent upon skill points, which I've already covered above. 2) Synergies were only used to provide an incentive to put skill points into abilities you had no intention of using. They weren't a good idea, they were just the best possible solution to a heavily flawed system - not to mention the fact that synergies in d3 would only lead to people just using 2 abilities again, and powering those abilities up with synergistic abilities they didn't have any intention of using which is counter to the game design. 3) The game already HAS synergies in the most important way - abilities compliment each other very well. For example, all of the abilities a melee wizard will use all work together to make the build possible. That is TRUE synergy... not some random +damage given to one ability because you picked another ability you didn't want to begin with.
To respond to your points:
1. This doesn't really make sense to me. We can both agree that no matter the skill system, people will gravitate toward certain skills. Your latter point is untrue, though. There are many builds possible in a well-balanced point system (Not claiming Diablo II was) that would call for [X] points here, just enough points there, max points here, and there. Hence the customization of your character. Something you yourself devised. Stat point allocation is another customization aspect that furthers the bond between you and your character. Slaughtering monsters is fun, that's why we play these games. But to me, playing a game with eyes glazed over rapidly pushing buttons with no thought to future levels (since they don't mean much now) is not appealing. No longer will I say to myself: "Okay, so I gain 5 more levels and I'll be at a new personal plateau with my character."
2. How does this new system cure time spent away from battle? If respecs were limited, then time spent doing it would be but a fraction of your character's lifetime. As it stands, you actually spend far more time swapping skills around before each battle or in town to give yourself the optimum build for the challenge ahead. That makes this point a little contradictory. I don't want to feel like I need to swap all the time just to breeze through the next challenge. I like thinking: "Alright, I am going to make this work as I built it." With some limited respecs, you could always fix it later if the game kicked you in the face too hard.
3. I never said skills couldn't get stronger. But, what I am saying is that currently you won't really see someone just spamming level 30 Charged Bolts (more bolts, more madness as opposed to % based increase in damage) to destroy all the mobs. Instead of seeing higher level skills, you will see higher damaging skills. That isn't good enough for me. I won't speak too much on this subject because this is all based on items and numbers which are mostly unknown.
4. Yes, synergies wouldn't return unless there were skill points. Unless they made it to where synergies apply to the 6 skills you've chosen (thus giving you a reason to have a build). It's no lie that they were applied to Diablo II to do just as you said--give incentive to get other skills. But it also bolstered current builds. You could build with synergies and reach a new level of power with all of them funneling into Blizzard, for example. I reiterate--I am not saying that Diablo II was perfect. Far from it, but I am saying that this new system is undoubtedly a step backwards. The problems that will arise from this system are far worse than having a skill that doesn't do much (that won't change, and will be like that in any game you play).
I think the actual system is flawed and have a major problem.
Theres no character customisation in the game past items. For people that played RTS, change skills and even runes in the middle of combat will be easy if it's allowed. I can reach 200+ APM. Change a skill is only 3 actions (change a skill and a rune is 6 actions). Wich mean i change my skill and runes in about 2~3 seconds. The consequencies of this exploit is really high:
Part of the gameplay will consist of quickly picking differ menu options (sucks)
Well prepared players will carry a bunch of runes, bringing back the same issues of the D2 charm system.
All high skilled players will have the exect same character, since they can swap items and skills at will. Maybe each class will be divided between some major item mods (crits or dmg, for example), but this FAR from real character customisation.
Level ups have no meaning. Allocating points after lvl ups is just really rewarding and the reason why so much people play rpgs. Seriously, right now people lvl up and don't even notice. You get some bonus in damage and resistance, but not choosing anything.. I don't know... I think a major chunck of the fun of lvling was removed from D3. A shame if you ask me. Part of the game is screwed =/
Level ups are pretty meaningless right now. In a good system, each time you level up you'll check how YOUR character has improved. Not some character you're playing at the moment, but YOUR character. The one you named, the one you carefully built in stats and skills. Runes are not really a fix for this as you have very little say in how your character differs.
Blizzard has specifically said a few times that they've designed the game for the people who choose one set of skills and stick with it. Sure some people will find ways to eke out 2% more power by swapping, but the people who don't aren't being punished for that fact. Which I think negates most of that problem.
The fact that you think a majority will hotswap abilities is I think perhaps a flaw in your logic... I really don't think that more than maybe a tenth even of the top top players will do so. I know I won't - and I'm usually a fairly skilled gamer at most games I play.
Leveling up gives a significant boost to power, access to new gear, new runes, and such. To me that does make it highly rewarding.
Why would you not give yourself a macro if you could? If you know you're not taking advantage of the system presented, then you can't really provide a good enough argument for or against it. Thousands upon thousands WILL find the fastest way, use the path of "least resistance" as the devs call it, and use simple macros or repeatedly change their skills. The game will need to be balanced around THAT, which will send the game in a direction that negates longevity, customization, and fun.
People are going to be split on this topic no matter what. That's a fact. But I implore you--ask yourself what's better. Less customization or more? Meaningful level-ups, skill choices, stat allocations, and immersion versus everyone unable to make mistakes and playing a character that does the work for you? Do you want items to dictate your character or do you want items and your personal choices of skills and stats on top of item choices to dictate your character? We can't say for sure anything about what we don't know (runes, end game items, perks, bonuses, etc.). But what I do know is that this skill system simply cannot provide the amount of connection and immersion that the previous titles held in its current state.
I'm with the OP. Severely disappointed with the lack of skill points, and the automatic stat points. In my opinion they are attempting to push the drive of the game from leveling builds ( like d2 was ) to end game content ( like wow). I much prefer making specialized characters and having more input into my character..
lvl 30+ is going to be extremely boring. Oh way, another lvl... 30 levels with no new skills, and no input into the skills you already have. Ding.. Woo...
I'll still play the game but im extremely sad with their choices here. I think limited respecs would have addressed the problems of customization and still maintained the feel of diablo. Unfortunately i feel this is a different game of the same name
Blizzard has said SEVERAL times now they're designing around the assumption that people will NOT be hotswapping. And they do NOT expect a lot of people to do it regularly. Okay? Can we get that out of the way now? Thank you. Quit assuming the game will be balanced around you swapping skills because it WON'T. Blizzard wants the game to be balanced assuming people DON'T do that.
Now that that is out of way, let's get on to the real points.
The runes are what determine how many charged bolts to use your skill, a level 7 rune does more than a leve l rune. So yes, you will see more scaling of effects beyond just damage through rune levels. And rune types.
I'm pretty sure Blizzard isn't planning to put macros in place to change your abilities. You have to stop killing, open your menu, find the skill, drag it to where you want it. Long process - doesn't seem very fun to me. So I won't.
What's better is MEANINGFUL customization. Skill points have NEVER proven themselves to be that. Remember, I am a game reviewer(admittedly fairly recently starting out as one), I play a ton of games. I've never seen a skill customization system that encouraged me to do anything other than max as many skills as I could to be as powerful as possible. Skills get increasingly more powerful the more points you put in them, not literally, but scalingly. So 1 point may do 1-2 damage, 5 will do 20-22, and 10 will do 100-102. There's no reason to only put 5 in, because I'll be really really weak. So you max out as many skills as the skill point system allows you to, then use whatever few skill points you have left to get utility abilities or in rare cases synergistic abilities. This is a fact. It was this way in D2, it was this way in Dungeon Siege 3, it was this way in dozens of other games which had skill trees. It is ALWAYS this way.
Stat points I will give you in some games HAVE been meaningful and well done. But usually they result in one person finding the optimum and 99.999% of people copying him. In d2 the optimum was as many vitality points as you could after getting youjr strength for items, for one example.
Meaningful customization will be in the choices you make, and I truly expect this game to end up with most people doing what I'll be doing: Designing their character to be a specific character. Ie. I'm going to have Venra the melee Wizardress. She will be that, and unless BLizzard makes it completely 100% useless, that is what she will be. It doesn't matter if I fight enemies that isn't ideal as, she will do what she needs to. Most gamers I've talked to play like that in games like this.
Sure there will be 'professional farmers' who do otherwise, but that's fine too - it's their choice. And that's the beauty of this system, it allows you the choice to play how you most want to. IF you want to build a character and make it a real character there is NOTHING stopping you from doing so. If you want to min max and swap abilities on the fly, there's also nothing stopping you from doing that. And that is truly a beautiful thing in a game - true choice.
Blizzard has said SEVERAL times now they're designing around the assumption that people will NOT be hotswapping. And they do NOT expect a lot of people to do it regularly. Okay? Can we get that out of the way now? Thank you. Quit assuming the game will be balanced around you swapping skills because it WON'T. Blizzard wants the game to be balanced assuming people DON'T do that.
Now that that is out of way, let's get on to the real points.
The runes are what determine how many charged bolts to use your skill, a level 7 rune does more than a leve l rune. So yes, you will see more scaling of effects beyond just damage through rune levels. And rune types.
I'm pretty sure Blizzard isn't planning to put macros in place to change your abilities. You have to stop killing, open your menu, find the skill, drag it to where you want it. Long process - doesn't seem very fun to me. So I won't.
What's better is MEANINGFUL customization. Skill points have NEVER proven themselves to be that. Remember, I am a game reviewer(admittedly fairly recently starting out as one), I play a ton of games. I've never seen a skill customization system that encouraged me to do anything other than max as many skills as I could to be as powerful as possible. Skills get increasingly more powerful the more points you put in them, not literally, but scalingly. So 1 point may do 1-2 damage, 5 will do 20-22, and 10 will do 100-102. There's no reason to only put 5 in, because I'll be really really weak. So you max out as many skills as the skill point system allows you to, then use whatever few skill points you have left to get utility abilities or in rare cases synergistic abilities. This is a fact. It was this way in D2, it was this way in Dungeon Siege 3, it was this way in dozens of other games which had skill trees. It is ALWAYS this way.
Stat points I will give you in some games HAVE been meaningful and well done. But usually they result in one person finding the optimum and 99.999% of people copying him. In d2 the optimum was as many vitality points as you could after getting youjr strength for items, for one example.
Meaningful customization will be in the choices you make, and I truly expect this game to end up with most people doing what I'll be doing: Designing their character to be a specific character. Ie. I'm going to have Venra the melee Wizardress. She will be that, and unless BLizzard makes it completely 100% useless, that is what she will be. It doesn't matter if I fight enemies that isn't ideal as, she will do what she needs to. Most gamers I've talked to play like that in games like this.
Sure there will be 'professional farmers' who do otherwise, but that's fine too - it's their choice. And that's the beauty of this system, it allows you the choice to play how you most want to. IF you want to build a character and make it a real character there is NOTHING stopping you from doing so. If you want to min max and swap abilities on the fly, there's also nothing stopping you from doing that. And that is truly a beautiful thing in a game - true choice.
In your first paragraph, you had "Blizzard wants the game to be balanced assuming people DON'T do that." perhaps a caption on ASSUMING would be more appropriate? Yes they have said several times that they dont want people switching skills, but at this moment, they are not reinforcing that philosophy, instead, the system currently available goes against it. And that is why people are concerned.
Secondly, yes it can be a tedious process, but IF the advantage outweighs that, then people will do it. Especially we are not talking about switching all 6 of your skills, but even 1 or 2 will make Blizzard's 6 skill limit system broken. For example, a monk, you have your regular 6 skills and you engage a fight, during or after the fight, you find your health low, you step aside, change to a heal skill, and heal. Adding to that all of the skills are maxed, and for someone to have more skills than 6, there likely exist an advantage.
Now I understand that we are all looking towards the runes mechanism that we know little about. But as I posted earlier, it is very likely that there will be skills where runes have a lesser effect on a skill's intended purpose, such as buff/debuff or movement skill. Thus it is very likely that people will switch those skills around.
Lastly, on your last comment on farmers and choices (beauty). I believe Blizzard are not aiming for such a "beauty" for the sake of choices.
This game will involve the real money auction house, and it require a system that's financially sound and "fair" you can call it.
Letting their intended 6 skills system to be altered by farmers for advantages, for the sake of having choices will destroy their intention and affect the online econmy greatly.
Remember there will be people who play to make money.
Why is it a problem if some people choose to play that way? How does it negatively effect your game at all?
Edit:
They never said that they don't want people switchnig actually. They said they don't EXPECT people to and they're not balancing around that but that if some people want to, and it makes the game more fun for them, that's great.
Why is it a problem if some people choose to play that way? How does it negatively effect your game at all?
Edit:
They never said that they don't want people switchnig actually. They said they don't EXPECT people to and they're not balancing around that but that if some people want to, and it makes the game more fun for them, that's great.
well i've explained that above, because real money is involved. Blizzard need to provide an equal ground for all those who would like to compete (farming)
If skill switching could be done easily and quickly, then those who farm professionally will try to gather the advantages of it. Try to exploit the system even you can say. And since real money is involved, players have more incentive to optimize their build, and very soon we will have cookie cutter builds (since they are optimized to the fullest to farm). All that while, the regular casual gamers (blizzard's main market) will either be put at an disadvantage when trading, or they have to conform as well.
They may not EXPECT people to switch skills, but once money is involved, and there's an advantage to switch, people will do it. (btw can you show me the exact quote? I dont remember when they said something like that? bad memory)
That being said, if blizzard want everyone to be able to use more skills, why put the 6 skills limit in the first place. Bashiok's story about the 6 skill limit was the marbles story, choosing 6 from 20 is tougher and gives more "choices" If they dont do something to reinforce it, then the 6 skill limit seems pointless.
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You can read about the proposed "unattuned" rune system here.
As for the discussion on swapping skills, I do think they'll add in some sort of mechanic to prevent it being done literally on a whim like we're seeing in the beta videos. Be that a cooldown, a gold cost, or something else. That said, I agree with Jack that it really won't be that big of a problem, even without any changes to the current system. It's completely unreasonable to extrapolate what we're seeing in the beta to how the game will function at level 60. Swapping skills at 60 will require you to analyze the pros and cons of doing so with respect to the rest of your skills/build, runes, upcoming encounters, etc. We won't be seeing people swapping out skills just to try something new or because they need to Teleport somewhere.
Going to remove your 'problems' because I don't agree with any of them.
Going to quickly rebut your improvements here
1) Please god actually READ the reasons why skill points were removed. Any system with skill points WILL lead to a situation where you max x number of skills. If you don't have enough to max 6, then you'll max 5, or 4, or however many. If they gave us 60 skill points and the max skill level were 10, we'd max 6, if it were 15 we'd max 4. There would be EXACTLY the same level of customization as if they didn't have skill points.
As to customizing stats, stat customization removes the immersion from the game - why? Because you're spending all your time looking at numbers in stead of slaughtering monsters.
2) Respecs just force people to spend more time in town - again removing you from the fun of the game. All a respec does is force a person to go back to town - you still can 'respec' so to speak, you just get to do it where you want to when you want to in stead of having to go back to town and interrupt your slaughter.
3) Skills CAN be powered past max level. The attack stat effects all damage, and there are also affixes like "Increase x class's damage" or "Increase x damage type by %". Just stack the right gear, and your skills get stronger.
4) Three problems with this: 1) It is contingent upon skill points, which I've already covered above. 2) Synergies were only used to provide an incentive to put skill points into abilities you had no intention of using. They weren't a good idea, they were just the best possible solution to a heavily flawed system - not to mention the fact that synergies in d3 would only lead to people just using 2 abilities again, and powering those abilities up with synergistic abilities they didn't have any intention of using which is counter to the game design. 3) The game already HAS synergies in the most important way - abilities compliment each other very well. For example, all of the abilities a melee wizard will use all work together to make the build possible. That is TRUE synergy... not some random +damage given to one ability because you picked another ability you didn't want to begin with.
Skills have still lost a level of immersion as they currently are and I'll get over it if they don't change anything on them...maybe lol ... but I was thinking of a way that they could bring that lil bit of immersion back Tell me what you guys think.
What if we have to use the skills to level them up? So say I am a lvl 1 wizard and I start with arcane missles and frost nova. So I am using the skills. and some system similar to like the weapon skills and fishing skill in the game that shall not be mentioned has keeps track of all of that so when you level up to lvl 2 if you had enough points or whatever system would track that info the skills level up with you like they already do. Now at level 3 I have level Ice armor unlocked but only currently do I have 2 active skills. So I test it out and I decide I am going to use ice armor and arcane missles and for the entire level I never use Ice Nova. So when I hit level three my ice armor goes up one because I used it, and my arcane missles go up because I used them, but my nova stays level 2 until I use it enough to catch it up. Now this will be even greater when you have all 6 active skills open and will bring a greater level of immersion back to the skill game with out them having to scrap the current system completely.
Hopefully I worded that well enough what do you guys think?
TheSkaBoss
Think of it not as a person who has 5 reservoirs(one for fire one for ice one for arcane one for lightning one for force) but rather as a person who has one reservoir: Arcane Power. And that reservoir can be channeled into any form of magic they need as long as they know how to perform that magic. So as that reservoir grows, so does the power of each spell cast from it.
Same goes for a barbarian... if he uses Bash 10000 times his muscles are gonna grow. So when he goes to throw that spear, his muscles are gonna be able to throw it that much harder.
Or a monk, whose power comes from his attunement with his god, if my memory serves me correctly. The more he achieves that level of attunement, the more all of his powers will grow, thus explaining why even the abilities he doesn't use become more potent.
etc.
Yea I like what your saying there youre speaking in terms of synergy. But I feel it is still unreasonable to think that all skills are mastered to max possible currently. I mean a barbarian grows his muscles by using bash so he can put more more power behind his weapon throw. It doesnt mean he can aim his throws well. A mage uses fire balls and arcane missiles and learns to use more power into their spells doesn't mean they've masterd magic enough to keep a prolonged casing of diamonds around they're body. I'm just saying it would be cool if they added a system that tracked use of skills maybe they could put synergies in that as well like using fire ball also helps build some skill to skills that are related I.E. meteor, but I think synergies in that would cause some other logic issues with the rune system saying how much that can change skills.
So do you think its a horrible Idea or were you just trying to help me expand my imagination lol
TheSkaBoss
D3 Channel: OnetwoD3
Theres no character customisation in the game past items. For people that played RTS, change skills and even runes in the middle of combat will be easy if it's allowed. I can reach 200+ APM. Change a skill is only 3 actions (change a skill and a rune is 6 actions). Wich mean i change my skill and runes in about 2~3 seconds. The consequencies of this exploit is really high:
- Part of the gameplay will consist of quickly picking differ menu options (sucks)
- Well prepared players will carry a bunch of runes, bringing back the same issues of the D2 charm system.
- All high skilled players will have the exect same character, since they can swap items and skills at will. Maybe each class will be divided between some major item mods (crits or dmg, for example), but this FAR from real character customisation.
The fact that you think a majority will hotswap abilities is I think perhaps a flaw in your logic... I really don't think that more than maybe a tenth even of the top top players will do so. I know I won't - and I'm usually a fairly skilled gamer at most games I play.
Leveling up gives a significant boost to power, access to new gear, new runes, and such. To me that does make it highly rewarding.
If you are somehow able to trivialize some encounters because you can change skills on the fly, what does that get you? A barely faster dungeon clear? Whoop-de-do. I'm just not seeing how it matters. On the other hand, it might remove the challenges those encounters present, which I think only degrades your own experience.
Personally, I think having some kind of significant cooldown on skill switching would only serve to disrupt and annoy, particularly when I first get a new skill. "Oh cool, let me try this out. Hmmm, naaa, I don't like that. WHAT? I have to wait 10 minutes before I can change it back?!?" Just not cool.
Jay Wilson has already talked a fair bit about why they stopped using skill points. I don't think I need to reiterate it.
That being said, let me address everyone I can as best I can...
The system in Diablo II forced you to remake a character if you wanted any chance of maxing your character's potential. The plus side is that if you knew what was up, leveling wasn't hard. The downside is that it is a huge problem to have to make a new character all over again to achieve what you want. That part of the game is something that could easily be solved by some respecs. If you don't limit them, you'll have unlimited freedom and we're back to square one. If you do, and you include skill points, you can customize how you want, but you'll also be punished if you keep screwing up. This is a good thing. Most punishments are bad, but some that force you to have a challenge can be good. I'm not saying that being able to change your character is bad. But, the process to getting the character you want is so diluted and easy now. Again, limited respecs would allow your character to change if he wants (but not an unlimited amount of times) and if you ever hit that wall or wanted more respecs you could make another character of the same class (thus solving the "not making another character of the same class" conundrum).
I'm all for improving your skills' power through items. Higher level skills mean more effects, usually. More magic missles, more Hydras, more Charged Bolts, whatever. Diablo 2 had this, for sure. But you were improving on skills you chose and skills that made your character yours. I'd rather feel more connection to these improvements because ultimately this connection to your character is what makes you want to further his ability. With your character being a bland, auto-leveling shell, you lose part of the motivation for improving him because it isn't like you pushed your character to be "all about skill [x]". Because he isn't all about a certain skill or two that you chose, you don't get nearly as much out of a Snowclash, or Death's Fathom, or Homunculus.
Firstly, we all can pretty much guess that the skill system is going to change at the VERY least to have restrictions on swapping. However, in a system that touts being able to be whatever type of [insert class here] you want, does it not seem like a last minute penalty they added if they choose to destroy runes on swap? If a system like this is in place, then not only are they going to have the meta-gaming they DIDN'T want early on when runes aren't important, but they are ALSO going to have the standard builds once each build has been researched. To me, I'd rather choose the path that MEANS something to get to the standard builds rather than the path that I feel adds an awkward level of freedom. Not to mention that also destroys any reasoning behind building another character of the same class. In my opinion, relying on solely on items to dictate how your character works is taking away from the experience, not adding to it. I like to feel like my character means something with or without items, and that's not something possible for me and many others in the current build of Diablo 3.
This is another driving point for me. I don't feel like having a skill that has decent utility with one point into it means it was a bad skill. Teleport in Diablo 2 used to have to be maxed out for Sorceresses before +skill items became the norm. Otherwise, it made it entirely too slow to rely on. Is a skill bad if it only requires one point? Escape skills (Teleport, Leap, etc.), buffs (Energy Shield, Thunder Shield, Chilling Armor), and the like? I don't think so. Sure, sometimes skills are poorly designed. This new system is not going to fix that just like the old system of skill points would not make it worse.
I didn't think Guild Wars was a bad game. I enjoyed it back in the day. It just isn't the same type of game as Diablo 3 at all. A skill system like they are showing us now CAN fit in some games. I don't think it fits into a hack n' slash RPG, though. You can't have a system like this and expect many people not to use or abuse it to the fullest. Macros are not hard at all to program into your hardware, so why would you NOT use them? To me, no matter what anyone says the rune system is going to be or how it's going to work, it will, at best, put a band-aid on a flawed system.
There are a lot of people who will just be too lazy to change their skills and use what they have. That's fine, I'm okay with that. There are plenty of games I've played where I've said: "I can probably be doing this a lot better but I just don't care enough." The problem with that is this: So many things are influenced by the skill system and the maximum efficiency one can attain from it. Difficulty of the game, quality of drops, skill balance, boss balance, restrictions, and so forth. Because every character has every skill at their fingertips, then a game has to be rebalanced from the ground up. A decision like this has more weight than they probably hoped for. There are some monsters in Diablo II that are resistant or immune to some elements. Whether or not they are prevalent in Diablo 3 is relatively unknown. However, as hard as a monster is or as resistant as he is, you will never have an issue with your character destroying it unless you're severely underleveled. From a balance standpoint, all characters have to be able to solo the game, and because each character has each skill, you will not find yourself in a situation where your skill swap can't defeat anything the game throws at you. It certainly doesn't give a "need" to play with anyone else you don't know, though. And that's bad.
To respond to your points:
1. This doesn't really make sense to me. We can both agree that no matter the skill system, people will gravitate toward certain skills. Your latter point is untrue, though. There are many builds possible in a well-balanced point system (Not claiming Diablo II was) that would call for [X] points here, just enough points there, max points here, and there. Hence the customization of your character. Something you yourself devised. Stat point allocation is another customization aspect that furthers the bond between you and your character. Slaughtering monsters is fun, that's why we play these games. But to me, playing a game with eyes glazed over rapidly pushing buttons with no thought to future levels (since they don't mean much now) is not appealing. No longer will I say to myself: "Okay, so I gain 5 more levels and I'll be at a new personal plateau with my character."
2. How does this new system cure time spent away from battle? If respecs were limited, then time spent doing it would be but a fraction of your character's lifetime. As it stands, you actually spend far more time swapping skills around before each battle or in town to give yourself the optimum build for the challenge ahead. That makes this point a little contradictory. I don't want to feel like I need to swap all the time just to breeze through the next challenge. I like thinking: "Alright, I am going to make this work as I built it." With some limited respecs, you could always fix it later if the game kicked you in the face too hard.
3. I never said skills couldn't get stronger. But, what I am saying is that currently you won't really see someone just spamming level 30 Charged Bolts (more bolts, more madness as opposed to % based increase in damage) to destroy all the mobs. Instead of seeing higher level skills, you will see higher damaging skills. That isn't good enough for me. I won't speak too much on this subject because this is all based on items and numbers which are mostly unknown.
4. Yes, synergies wouldn't return unless there were skill points. Unless they made it to where synergies apply to the 6 skills you've chosen (thus giving you a reason to have a build). It's no lie that they were applied to Diablo II to do just as you said--give incentive to get other skills. But it also bolstered current builds. You could build with synergies and reach a new level of power with all of them funneling into Blizzard, for example. I reiterate--I am not saying that Diablo II was perfect. Far from it, but I am saying that this new system is undoubtedly a step backwards. The problems that will arise from this system are far worse than having a skill that doesn't do much (that won't change, and will be like that in any game you play).
Level ups are pretty meaningless right now. In a good system, each time you level up you'll check how YOUR character has improved. Not some character you're playing at the moment, but YOUR character. The one you named, the one you carefully built in stats and skills. Runes are not really a fix for this as you have very little say in how your character differs.
Why would you not give yourself a macro if you could? If you know you're not taking advantage of the system presented, then you can't really provide a good enough argument for or against it. Thousands upon thousands WILL find the fastest way, use the path of "least resistance" as the devs call it, and use simple macros or repeatedly change their skills. The game will need to be balanced around THAT, which will send the game in a direction that negates longevity, customization, and fun.
People are going to be split on this topic no matter what. That's a fact. But I implore you--ask yourself what's better. Less customization or more? Meaningful level-ups, skill choices, stat allocations, and immersion versus everyone unable to make mistakes and playing a character that does the work for you? Do you want items to dictate your character or do you want items and your personal choices of skills and stats on top of item choices to dictate your character? We can't say for sure anything about what we don't know (runes, end game items, perks, bonuses, etc.). But what I do know is that this skill system simply cannot provide the amount of connection and immersion that the previous titles held in its current state.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
You don't loose the rune.
And i don't think i will get "10% increased power" if i swap my skills. I will use the best skill in the best situation, 100% of the time.
lvl 30+ is going to be extremely boring. Oh way, another lvl... 30 levels with no new skills, and no input into the skills you already have. Ding.. Woo...
I'll still play the game but im extremely sad with their choices here. I think limited respecs would have addressed the problems of customization and still maintained the feel of diablo. Unfortunately i feel this is a different game of the same name
Now that that is out of way, let's get on to the real points.
The runes are what determine how many charged bolts to use your skill, a level 7 rune does more than a leve l rune. So yes, you will see more scaling of effects beyond just damage through rune levels. And rune types.
I'm pretty sure Blizzard isn't planning to put macros in place to change your abilities. You have to stop killing, open your menu, find the skill, drag it to where you want it. Long process - doesn't seem very fun to me. So I won't.
What's better is MEANINGFUL customization. Skill points have NEVER proven themselves to be that. Remember, I am a game reviewer(admittedly fairly recently starting out as one), I play a ton of games. I've never seen a skill customization system that encouraged me to do anything other than max as many skills as I could to be as powerful as possible. Skills get increasingly more powerful the more points you put in them, not literally, but scalingly. So 1 point may do 1-2 damage, 5 will do 20-22, and 10 will do 100-102. There's no reason to only put 5 in, because I'll be really really weak. So you max out as many skills as the skill point system allows you to, then use whatever few skill points you have left to get utility abilities or in rare cases synergistic abilities. This is a fact. It was this way in D2, it was this way in Dungeon Siege 3, it was this way in dozens of other games which had skill trees. It is ALWAYS this way.
Stat points I will give you in some games HAVE been meaningful and well done. But usually they result in one person finding the optimum and 99.999% of people copying him. In d2 the optimum was as many vitality points as you could after getting youjr strength for items, for one example.
Meaningful customization will be in the choices you make, and I truly expect this game to end up with most people doing what I'll be doing: Designing their character to be a specific character. Ie. I'm going to have Venra the melee Wizardress. She will be that, and unless BLizzard makes it completely 100% useless, that is what she will be. It doesn't matter if I fight enemies that isn't ideal as, she will do what she needs to. Most gamers I've talked to play like that in games like this.
Sure there will be 'professional farmers' who do otherwise, but that's fine too - it's their choice. And that's the beauty of this system, it allows you the choice to play how you most want to. IF you want to build a character and make it a real character there is NOTHING stopping you from doing so. If you want to min max and swap abilities on the fly, there's also nothing stopping you from doing that. And that is truly a beautiful thing in a game - true choice.
In your first paragraph, you had "Blizzard wants the game to be balanced assuming people DON'T do that." perhaps a caption on ASSUMING would be more appropriate? Yes they have said several times that they dont want people switching skills, but at this moment, they are not reinforcing that philosophy, instead, the system currently available goes against it. And that is why people are concerned.
Secondly, yes it can be a tedious process, but IF the advantage outweighs that, then people will do it. Especially we are not talking about switching all 6 of your skills, but even 1 or 2 will make Blizzard's 6 skill limit system broken. For example, a monk, you have your regular 6 skills and you engage a fight, during or after the fight, you find your health low, you step aside, change to a heal skill, and heal. Adding to that all of the skills are maxed, and for someone to have more skills than 6, there likely exist an advantage.
Now I understand that we are all looking towards the runes mechanism that we know little about. But as I posted earlier, it is very likely that there will be skills where runes have a lesser effect on a skill's intended purpose, such as buff/debuff or movement skill. Thus it is very likely that people will switch those skills around.
Lastly, on your last comment on farmers and choices (beauty). I believe Blizzard are not aiming for such a "beauty" for the sake of choices.
This game will involve the real money auction house, and it require a system that's financially sound and "fair" you can call it.
Letting their intended 6 skills system to be altered by farmers for advantages, for the sake of having choices will destroy their intention and affect the online econmy greatly.
Remember there will be people who play to make money.
Edit:
They never said that they don't want people switchnig actually. They said they don't EXPECT people to and they're not balancing around that but that if some people want to, and it makes the game more fun for them, that's great.
well i've explained that above, because real money is involved. Blizzard need to provide an equal ground for all those who would like to compete (farming)
If skill switching could be done easily and quickly, then those who farm professionally will try to gather the advantages of it. Try to exploit the system even you can say. And since real money is involved, players have more incentive to optimize their build, and very soon we will have cookie cutter builds (since they are optimized to the fullest to farm). All that while, the regular casual gamers (blizzard's main market) will either be put at an disadvantage when trading, or they have to conform as well.
They may not EXPECT people to switch skills, but once money is involved, and there's an advantage to switch, people will do it. (btw can you show me the exact quote? I dont remember when they said something like that? bad memory)
That being said, if blizzard want everyone to be able to use more skills, why put the 6 skills limit in the first place. Bashiok's story about the 6 skill limit was the marbles story, choosing 6 from 20 is tougher and gives more "choices" If they dont do something to reinforce it, then the 6 skill limit seems pointless.