Did you know that with this game structure you get gear in 1/4 the time it would take in d2? Possibly less than that. While based on an assumption, it is logical to assume that it doesn't matter whether 1 person or 4 people are in a game and kill a boss, the number of items dropped for each player will be the same. Ex: kill this boss he drops 2 items for you, if two players are in the game both would receive 2 items due to the scaling of difficulty. Reducing the number of items dropped for each player when multiple individuals kill a boss is counter intuitive to the developer's "play with your friends" design strategy as well as it's a kind of punishment for killing in a party.

Where I am going with this is that with a balanced group (4 different classes) presumably all with different item needs (for most slots) you can achieve gearing yourself 4x faster than you would solo. Using the math from above, let's say you are going for a legendary staff that drops off an end boss in bastion's keep. With a .5% drop rate on the item and 2 items dropped per kill, it would take you 100 kills to get the item (on average). Whereas, with 4 people in the game, that's 8 item rolls per kill, and a need to complete only 25 runs to get that item (on average). Therefore, running any dungeon without 4 people with you gimps you ability to get the items you want/need.

Better start finding 3 other people you Trust/enjoy playing with!

Just a word on drop rates: While I understand your reasoning and math, that's not technically right. The chances of getting an item don't actually increase or decrease (unless patched) each time you kill something. Each time you begin a boss fight, the chance of getting said item is still .5% (or whatever) - random events have no memory. The game doesn't say, "Oh, you've done this 99 times without success? Well, this time I will drop your item because statistics says I have to!" Granted, you could always get it on your first try, but it could also take you well over the average as well. This could all change of course if, like someone said, the loot tables change to prevent endless boss runs.

Sorry for the semi-unrelated-to-your-post rant. =)

Yes, being in a party will increase your chances, but it's not like that wasn't the way it worked in d2. When soloing a boss, it dropped 1 or 2 really good items, but it dropped about 5 total. When killing the same boss in a party of 8, about 10 total items dropped, but 4 or 5 of them were amazing. By simple math, that quadrupled your chances for the item.

More players = More difficulty = More rewards

The formula's tried and true. Not to mention that diablo doesn't really have set loot tables, so that .5% of getting an item applies to all bosses in that class, and that .5% is a really high droprate in that case.

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Did you know that with this game structure you get gear in 1/4 the time it would take in d2? Possibly less than that. While based on an assumption, it is logical to assume that it doesn't matter whether 1 person or 4 people are in a game and kill a boss, the number of items dropped for each player will be the same. Ex: kill this boss he drops 2 items for you, if two players are in the game both would receive 2 items due to the scaling of difficulty. Reducing the number of items dropped for each player when multiple individuals kill a boss is counter intuitive to the developer's "play with your friends" design strategy as well as it's a kind of punishment for killing in a party.

Where I am going with this is that with a balanced group (4 different classes) presumably all with different item needs (for most slots) you can achieve gearing yourself 4x faster than you would solo. Using the math from above, let's say you are going for a legendary staff that drops off an end boss in bastion's keep. With a .5% drop rate on the item and 2 items dropped per kill, it would take you 100 kills to get the item (on average). Whereas, with 4 people in the game, that's 8 item rolls per kill, and a need to complete only 25 runs to get that item (on average). Therefore, running any dungeon without 4 people with you gimps you ability to get the items you want/need.

Better start finding 3 other people you Trust/enjoy playing with!

Since we don't know how rare the drop rate of legendary and sets are compared to diablo 2 i don't see how you can even get close to the assumption that you can get geared in 1/14 of the time of diablo 2, there is very little info when it comes to item drop rate/quality etc...

Time will tell how it works, personally i hope they go back to the Diablo 2 pre expansion era where rare items actually had a value and use.

I stildon'tnt see how you came close to a conclusion that you will get just as well geared as you did in diablo 2 in 1/4 of the time or less.

Did you know that with this game structure you get gear in 1/4 the time it would take in d2? Possibly less than that. While based on an assumption, it is logical to assume that it doesn't matter whether 1 person or 4 people are in a game and kill a boss, the number of items dropped for each player will be the same. Ex: kill this boss he drops 2 items for you, if two players are in the game both would receive 2 items due to the scaling of difficulty. Reducing the number of items dropped for each player when multiple individuals kill a boss is counter intuitive to the developer's "play with your friends" design strategy as well as it's a kind of punishment for killing in a party.

Where I am going with this is that with a balanced group (4 different classes) presumably all with different item needs (for most slots) you can achieve gearing yourself 4x faster than you would solo. Using the math from above, let's say you are going for a legendary staff that drops off an end boss in bastion's keep. With a .5% drop rate on the item and 2 items dropped per kill, it would take you 100 kills to get the item (on average). Whereas, with 4 people in the game, that's 8 item rolls per kill, and a need to complete only 25 runs to get that item (on average). Therefore, running any dungeon without 4 people with you gimps you ability to get the items you want/need.

Better start finding 3 other people you Trust/enjoy playing with!

Since we don't know how rare the drop rate of legendary and sets are compared to diablo 2 i don't see how you can even get close to the assumption that you can get geared in 1/14 of the time of diablo 2, there is very little info when it comes to item drop rate/quality etc... sorry to say this but this thread is VERY misleading.

While I understand that events are not remembered by the computer, assigned drop rates are there to normalize the experience across players. So, on average, that item will be .5% of all the items that drop off that mob. Smoothing that across the entire population of players, my math holds strong.

@Nuvian - you are omitting the fact that you are also not "fighting" with party members for gear since you only see your drops, thereby decreasing gear-up time. (as long as you know them)

Did you know that with this game structure you get gear in 1/4 the time it would take in d2? Possibly less than that. While based on an assumption, it is logical to assume that it doesn't matter whether 1 person or 4 people are in a game and kill a boss, the number of items dropped for each player will be the same. Ex: kill this boss he drops 2 items for you, if two players are in the game both would receive 2 items due to the scaling of difficulty. Reducing the number of items dropped for each player when multiple individuals kill a boss is counter intuitive to the developer's "play with your friends" design strategy as well as it's a kind of punishment for killing in a party.

Where I am going with this is that with a balanced group (4 different classes) presumably all with different item needs (for most slots) you can achieve gearing yourself 4x faster than you would solo. Using the math from above, let's say you are going for a legendary staff that drops off an end boss in bastion's keep. With a .5% drop rate on the item and 2 items dropped per kill, it would take you 100 kills to get the item (on average). Whereas, with 4 people in the game, that's 8 item rolls per kill, and a need to complete only 25 runs to get that item (on average). Therefore, running any dungeon without 4 people with you gimps you ability to get the items you want/need.

Better start finding 3 other people you Trust/enjoy playing with!

Haha, I'm glad you caught this, because I mentioned this on the official battlenet forums a long time ago. However, there's a fairly simple solution to this that does bandaid the issue. All you have to do is decrease the drop percentages per person in the party by this formula:

pdr = bdr/n

where
pdr is personal drop rate, bdr = base drop rate, and n is the number of players in your party.

Did you know that with this game structure you get gear in 1/4 the time it would take in d2? Possibly less than that. While based on an assumption, it is logical to assume that it doesn't matter whether 1 person or 4 people are in a game and kill a boss, the number of items dropped for each player will be the same. Ex: kill this boss he drops 2 items for you, if two players are in the game both would receive 2 items due to the scaling of difficulty. Reducing the number of items dropped for each player when multiple individuals kill a boss is counter intuitive to the developer's "play with your friends" design strategy as well as it's a kind of punishment for killing in a party.

Where I am going with this is that with a balanced group (4 different classes) presumably all with different item needs (for most slots) you can achieve gearing yourself 4x faster than you would solo. Using the math from above, let's say you are going for a legendary staff that drops off an end boss in bastion's keep. With a .5% drop rate on the item and 2 items dropped per kill, it would take you 100 kills to get the item (on average). Whereas, with 4 people in the game, that's 8 item rolls per kill, and a need to complete only 25 runs to get that item (on average). Therefore, running any dungeon without 4 people with you gimps you ability to get the items you want/need.

Better start finding 3 other people you Trust/enjoy playing with!

The chance of the item dropping doesn't increase with more runs, it's still RNG.

Since we don't know how rare the drop rate of legendary and sets are compared to diablo 2 i don't see how you can even get close to the assumption that you can get geared in 1/14 of the time of diablo 2, there is very little info when it comes to item drop rate/quality etc...

Pretty much what I thought.

While you can make assumptions based on what's reasonable, it's pretty impossible to say "yay, I got this figured out". Plus in D2, the difficulty increase was merely stats wise, and the amount of DPS you could output with an extra Sorceress or 2 on your team using Static Field on a boss greatly offset that extra HP given you could tank for them with a Paladin or a Barbarian, so in all honesty, D2 had a very weak difficulty increasing feature based on number of players. I believe this will be better on D3 (amount of enemies, their overall dmg), and bosses won't be a cakewalk with 4 players.

@mclachdanan - obviously you know nothing of averages. .01 = 1%

If every person in the d3 population did 100 runs, ON AVEREAGE players would see that item 1 time. As with anything random w/ a fixed occurrence potential there is a chance it won't happen during the 100 runs. My math assumes it is being used across the population of players, not one individual.

You make quite the assumption thinking that the other players are going to be giving you what you want out of their drops.

It would work like that in untwinked co-op. You could give the items your character doesn't need to other members of your party and vice versa. Then you'd gear up noticably faster because even though you'd get the same number of items per player as during solo play, they would be more useful for the players since you can exchange useless items for useful ones.

This type of exchange leads to no advantage for twinked characters because they can exchange the items they don't need on the battle.net-market.

This is very true, it is what I imagine early D3 to be like.

Ifc course the chance of getting a item increase with each run.

For the sake of easy argument, imagine item A drop with 50% prob in a run. In one run you have 50% prob of getting item A and 50% of not getting item A. The expected amount of droped items A is 0.5
In two runs you have 25% prob of getting two itens A, 50% chance of getting one item A and 25% chance of getting no item A. The expected amount of droped itens is now 1 (50%*1+25%*2). Each time you make another run, the expected value of getting your item will increase (and the expected value of getting nothing will decrease). What remains constant is the prob of getting a item in that particular try, not in the whole experiement (total runs).

Jesus...

And the systen says that each person have a individual drop. When you kill monster, the drop experiment is rolled for each player individually. Unlike other games where the experiment is rolled once and the result divided among players.

Ifc course the chance of getting a item increase with each run.

For the sake of easy argument, imagine item A drop with 50% prob in a run. In one run you have 50% prob of getting item A and 50% of not getting item A. The expected amount of droped items A is 0.5
In two runs you have 25% prob of getting two itens A, 50% chance of getting one item A and 25% chance of getting no item A. The expected amount of droped itens is now 1 (50%*1+25%*2). Each time you make another run, the expected value of getting your item will increase (and the expected value of getting nothing will decrease). What remains constant is the prob of getting a item in that particular try, not in the whole experiement (total runs).

I'm sorry, but no. Just, no. In this scenario, each time you run this, the probability of getting A is 50% - it doesn't change just because you do it more. When flipping a coin, the chance of heads on attempt 1 is the same as attempt 1027 and so on. However, there are statistical distributions that can estimate the probability of success (getting your item) in a set number of runs or even the estimated number of runs it would take given the right probabilities (drop rates, etc). I remember figuring out this sort of stuff when I was doing Rivendare mount runs in WoW. Math is fun!

Maybe this just means that there is that much more loot with that many more attributes making it 4x harder to get that perfect drop.

And with randomization on nearly ever drop, I still think a 4x increase won't make that much of a difference. It's not like you can run bosses for specifics drops.

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@mclachdanan - your opinion is nice however you have not presented any facts to refute what was said earlier. The math adds up, show yours.

Well I thought I did but I'll try to make it more clear.
The drop you get and the drop each of your other party members get are not related to each other, these events are called (stochastically) independent.
This means if you have 4 players you still don't have a higher chance of getting one item because the chance for each player is just the same as it would be for you alone.
It works just the same as if you would just do the kill solo four times in a row.
And as many have stated before the chance of getting an item does not increase by repeating the run, it will stay just the same.
Talking about averages I kind of get the idea but that's hard to determine precisely as the average values are usually given after an insane amount of tries (counting to infinity usually xD).
Of course I wouldn't know if Blizz did something else on purpose for the party games (increase the chances for each player if playing in a party or sth) but if we assume that drops are determined by a fixed "chance" this would be the case.
EDIT: Don't know how magic find would work here though...
max or min over all players?

Very True. It is the same as if you were doing the boss 100x yourself. However, with 4 people in the party, the computation is done 4x. So 100 runs with 4 people = 400 "random rolls" for an item you are looking for. Keep in mind that this is assuming you have teamwork with the other party members. My math scales regardless of what the drop % are. Having 4 person teams grinding for gear will essentially do 4 item rolls each time you kill a boss rather than just 1 item roll if you did it solo.

That is how if every person in the game had a 4 person team an item with a .5% drop rate would be seen by at least one member by the 25th run. (On average, smoothed across the entire population)

Haha, I'm glad you caught this, because I mentioned this on the official battlenet forums a long time ago. However, there's a fairly simple solution to this that does bandaid the issue. All you have to do is decrease the drop percentages per person in the party by this formula:

pdr = bdr/n

where
pdr is personal drop rate, bdr = base drop rate, and n is the number of players in your party.

...so then not only would you get on average the same amount of drops per run as if you were soloing - you'd also be getting worse drop rates?

Not quite.

In my model, here's what happens:

1. Personal drop amount stays the same, but party amount = personal amount * party number.
2. Personal drop percentages are lowered, but party drop percentages stay the same.

So for example, if you have a legendary with a bdr of .05. If you solo it, the pdr = .05. If you're with a party of 4, your pdr = .05/4 = 0.0125, but you have 4 people who can have that same pdr, so it evens the party pdr combined is 0.0124*4 = 0.05.

This way, no matter how many party members you have, your chances for getting item X amongst the four of you is even.

I can see this as being a problem in pugs where people don't want to share items though. And because of that, I'm sure a better equation will be look more like a curve, but I don't really feel like doing that math on that atm.

@McLach - you are doing the math incompletely. Yes, for each person the drop chance remains the same. But you are stopping the math there. You would definitely get gear quicker. It might not be direct as 4x with 4 players but the odds definitely increase because 4x as much loot drops. Regardless of the original roll rates, there is 4x the loot increases your odds more because it is rolling 4x. It's simple logic, with 4x the loot drops, there is an increase in probability. Its just not 4x times as probable.

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Where I am going with this is that with a balanced group (4 different classes) presumably all with different item needs (for most slots) you can achieve gearing yourself 4x faster than you would solo. Using the math from above, let's say you are going for a legendary staff that drops off an end boss in bastion's keep. With a .5% drop rate on the item and 2 items dropped per kill, it would take you 100 kills to get the item (on average). Whereas, with 4 people in the game, that's 8 item rolls per kill, and a need to complete only 25 runs to get that item (on average). Therefore, running any dungeon without 4 people with you gimps you ability to get the items you want/need.

Better start finding 3 other people you Trust/enjoy playing with!

Sorry for the semi-unrelated-to-your-post rant. =)

More players = More difficulty = More rewards

The formula's tried and true. Not to mention that diablo doesn't really have set loot tables, so that .5% of getting an item applies to all bosses in that class, and that .5% is a really high droprate in that case.

Time will tell how it works, personally i hope they go back to the Diablo 2 pre expansion era where rare items actually had a value and use.

I stildon'tnt see how you came close to a conclusion that you will get just as well geared as you did in diablo 2 in 1/4 of the time or less.

@Nuvian - you are omitting the fact that you are also not "fighting" with party members for gear since you only see your drops, thereby decreasing gear-up time. (as long as you know them)

Haha, I'm glad you caught this, because I mentioned this on the official battlenet forums a long time ago. However, there's a fairly simple solution to this that does bandaid the issue. All you have to do is decrease the drop percentages per person in the party by this formula:

pdr = bdr/n

where

pdr is personal drop rate, bdr = base drop rate, and n is the number of players in your party.

The chance of the item dropping doesn't increase with more runs, it's still RNG.

While you can make assumptions based on what's reasonable, it's pretty impossible to say "yay, I got this figured out". Plus in D2, the difficulty increase was merely stats wise, and the amount of DPS you could output with an extra Sorceress or 2 on your team using Static Field on a boss greatly offset that extra HP given you could tank for them with a Paladin or a Barbarian, so in all honesty, D2 had a very weak difficulty increasing feature based on number of players. I believe this will be better on D3 (amount of enemies, their overall dmg), and bosses won't be a cakewalk with 4 players.

If every person in the d3 population did 100 runs, ON AVEREAGE players would see that item 1 time. As with anything random w/ a fixed occurrence potential there is a chance it won't happen during the 100 runs. My math assumes it is being used across the population of players, not one individual.

This is very true, it is what I imagine early D3 to be like.

For the sake of easy argument, imagine item A drop with 50% prob in a run. In one run you have 50% prob of getting item A and 50% of not getting item A. The expected amount of droped items A is 0.5

In two runs you have 25% prob of getting two itens A, 50% chance of getting one item A and 25% chance of getting no item A. The expected amount of droped itens is now 1 (50%*1+25%*2). Each time you make another run, the expected value of getting your item will increase (and the expected value of getting nothing will decrease). What remains constant is the prob of getting a item in that particular try, not in the whole experiement (total runs).

Jesus...

And the systen says that each person have a individual drop. When you kill monster, the drop experiment is rolled for each player

individually. Unlike other games where the experiment is rolled once and the result divided among players.@mclachdanan - your opinion is nice however you have not presented any facts to refute what was said earlier. The math adds up, show yours.

I'm sorry, but no. Just, no. In this scenario, each time you run this, the probability of getting A is 50% - it doesn't change just because you do it more. When flipping a coin, the chance of heads on attempt 1 is the same as attempt 1027 and so on. However, there are statistical distributions that can estimate the probability of success (getting your item) in a set number of runs or even the estimated number of runs it would take given the right probabilities (drop rates, etc). I remember figuring out this sort of stuff when I was doing Rivendare mount runs in WoW. Math is fun!

And with randomization on nearly ever drop, I still think a 4x increase won't make that much of a difference. It's not like you can run bosses for specifics drops.

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I'm glad Diablo 3 is being made. Nuff said.

Very True. It is the same as if you were doing the boss 100x yourself. However, with 4 people in the party, the computation is done 4x. So 100 runs with 4 people = 400 "random rolls" for an item you are looking for. Keep in mind that this is assuming you have teamwork with the other party members. My math scales regardless of what the drop % are. Having 4 person teams grinding for gear will essentially do 4 item rolls each time you kill a boss rather than just 1 item roll if you did it solo.

That is how if every person in the game had a 4 person team an item with a .5% drop rate would be seen by at least one member by the 25th run. (On average, smoothed across the entire population)

In my model, here's what happens:

1. Personal drop amount stays the same, but party amount = personal amount * party number.

2. Personal drop percentages are lowered, but party drop percentages stay the same.

So for example, if you have a legendary with a bdr of .05. If you solo it, the pdr = .05. If you're with a party of 4, your pdr = .05/4 = 0.0125, but you have 4 people who can have that same pdr, so it evens the party pdr combined is 0.0124*4 = 0.05.

This way, no matter how many party members you have, your chances for getting item X amongst the four of you is even.

I can see this as being a problem in pugs where people don't want to share items though. And because of that, I'm sure a better equation will be look more like a curve, but I don't really feel like doing that math on that atm.

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