Well, if the 6 month beta testing is still somewhat accurate and their internal testing is included in this, then Starting at the beginning of May would put the game out early Nov. 2011
Isn't that reaching just a bit? I mean the internal testing is testing but it's usually referred to as the alpha test.
@Polrayne I completely see where you're coming from. In short, much of the content that needs tweaking in D3 doesn't need to be perfect on release, since most of it is far off.
While in theory this is somewhat true, there are a few things I can counter that with. One, I think you over estimate how long it will take players to start to reach at those "far off" items. Blizz has stated that we'll likely be max level (60) by the end of hell, and that the acts are about as long as D2. So one could do the math and say that a truly hardcore player could reach 60 in say, 2-3 days. This doesn't mean they'll be rolling in level 14 gems obviously, but I don't think Blizzard would under any pressure to release not have all their game balanced appropriately upon release.
As said by them, they are pushing for the 2011 window, but will not sacrifice any quality to meet this time frame.
As for the topic of small imperfections in balance across any one of D3's systems isn't a big deal, I see what you guys are saying, but again seeing as Blizzard is quality before ANYTHING, I feel they won't settle for the standard in which you're implying. This isn't to say PvP, I'm pretty sure we all know how they feel about PvP, I'm saying PvE, and all systems involved, ie Gems, Skills, Traits, Buffs, and so on.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
For some reason or another, I feel like this beta is going to be far less important than almost any Bliz beta that's come before it. They're releasing a tiny portion of the game, and it's not likely to last very long
The fact that Blizzard is still even hoping for a 2011 release and targeting Q3 for beta tells me it's not going to be hugely important, as Kiserai very astutely pointed out (+1 Kiserai, he's got game). And the last coup-de-grace.. Wilson keeps insisting that the sheer number of builds will effectively negate min-max rock/paper/scissors imbalances, and you know what? I believe him. Why? I don't know. I just like the guy. He has a face I can trust. I'd buy a car off him, not cause I need it, but because I like his face.
Jay would never lie.
Anyway, I don't think there will be that much to do in the beta. It'll mainly be a formality to generate buzz so they can sell the balls off this thing come Christmas 2011. Oops! Did I just say that?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."
-Thomas Jefferson
Dolaiim, I'll blame this last post on the fact that you're drunk. Even if you don't know it, you're drunk. Just trust me.
For the sake of not repeating myself more than I already have, I'll just generally state, of course Blizzard would like the game out 2011, to polish the year for their financial purposes. Though in the most simple of form I can put it, here's the chart in MY head, again my opinion.
Beta September 1st -
2-6 month length -
Best case - 2 month beta, leaves the game polished come November. Blizzard franticly articles all the paperwork and licencing, pushes the game mid December.
In my head, 10% chance.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Most likely scenario - 3 month beta, leaves the game polished come December. Blizzard is silent all month knowing any sound from them will attract an army of pissed off fans.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
I'm sorry, but when has it become acceptable to release games that THE DEVS KNOW will need patching at release or shortly after? This is just insane.
As for releasing code that needs patching, it's rarely black and white. I agree that it's criminal to release code that you know for sure is not working, intending to patch it post-sale. But that's not a likely scenario with a Bliz title.
The first thing you have to accept is that you'll never reach 0 defects, ever. In the system/scale phase of testing, there are going to be weird, corner-case bugs that are not reproducible. Some of those will be severe. But delaying release for such bugs is, for all practical purposes, impossible. So you put them in the release notes and keep working at it post-release with subsequent builds.
Once a million people get playtime, one of the uglies will sometimes rear its head and require emergency patching. It happens. But it's a lot easier to root-cause when there are a million use-cases to cross-reference.
Generally, when it comes to quality, Blizzard has set the high water-mark in my opinion. J-dub would not do me like that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."
-Thomas Jefferson
@Polrayne I completely see where you're coming from. In short, much of the content that needs tweaking in D3 doesn't need to be perfect on release, since most of it is far off.
While in theory this is somewhat true, there are a few things I can counter that with. One, I think you over estimate how long it will take players to start to reach at those "far off" items. Blizz has stated that we'll likely be max level (60) by the end of hell, and that the acts are about as long as D2. So one could do the math and say that a truly hardcore player could reach 60 in say, 2-3 days. This doesn't mean they'll be rolling in level 14 gems obviously, but I don't think Blizzard would under any pressure to release not have all their game balanced appropriately upon release.
As said by them, they are pushing for the 2011 window, but will not sacrifice any quality to meet this time frame.
As for the topic of small imperfections in balance across any one of D3's systems isn't a big deal, I see what you guys are saying, but again seeing as Blizzard is quality before ANYTHING, I feel they won't settle for the standard in which you're implying. This isn't to say PvP, I'm pretty sure we all know how they feel about PvP, I'm saying PvE, and all systems involved, ie Gems, Skills, Traits, Buffs, and so on.
Pertaining to "quality before anything"; I totally agree with you. My stance on these issues is from a logical place - however I feel that one key factor is always missing - the developers desire to make a perfect game. There are several sides to a company like Blizzard, but two key parts of it in this case are the creative side and the business side (to simplify).
The creative side is what has been dragging this game through the years, creating, perfecting, recreating, re perfecting. I get the feeling that, if it were left up to them, this game would take a few more years before they would be willing to let it out of their sight. This isn't a bad thing - the have passion to make a great game. But until its done, they won't let it go.
The business side are the fellows in big Suits that pound the tables saying "get it done and make it perfect - or else", which is essentially the whip that drive the team to pull the game along. However, its lasted long enough - the game is ready to go through a Beta in a few months and with all the other factors they talked about (WoW decreased subscriptions, revamping content delivery to keep people in the game, etc) in the call, those Suits are going to push the developers out into the light with their game.
Have you ever moved from one home to another? Remember how months before you started idly packing a few things. Then the day of, when one of out ten rooms is packed and you just start throwing crap into bags. When someone walks up with a priceless piece and you glance at it and say "keep it for yourself or toss it, I don't care - I want this crap done!" This is how I think a bit of this process is going. They've got 7/8 of the rooms packed and its about to be moving day. They can fix the rest later in patches.
As for the beginning of your post, I also agree. I just feel that it won't be "game breaking" for blizz to make some changes in two or three months, post release, that effects play style - because most won't even have come close to approaching a perfect play style. If they can do that - then that shaves off a few months of Beta.
I think we have much the same view, I agree with everything in your post to some degree, yet in my head I still think 2012 is where it's at. Weird how we come to different conclusions :P.
An yes I know what's it like to move, and the last minute realization that this needs to be done, NOW. I'm sure Blizzard is being pressured by multiple sources to get new content out, but I also feel that they have no true -Needs to be done by THIS date- deals with anyone.
Activision is a shit company, flat out.. They move out games faster than people want to buy them, put people do because we feel the need to update constantly. They also move out overpriced DLC just as fast. Most games are replaced within a year.. To me they are the BP Oil of the gaming world, in it souly for the money. Following as you may expect from the first law of business, -lead by example- even the groups who make the games themselves seem to follow Activision's mentality.
Sorry this is going to be a little rant on Activision, feel free to skip to the marker (***) for on topic post.
Look at COD (Infinity Ward, who now has like 6 of it's original members btw), they litrially are using the COD 2 game engine, and have stated they plan on using it in the upcoming COD.. Like fucking really? Milking the cow much? "We follow the if it isn't broke don't fix it mentality." WELL OF COURSE YA DO!! It's bring in undeserved cash flow!!.. Look at Dice, they made 2 fucking games, awesome games, and already came out with a new game engine, at that it's a fucking true phyics engine with advanced destructible structures, and true particle effects.. As for the other side of COD, after watching the -making of- video for Black Ops (Now over to Treyarch) I instantly hated them, their mentally sucks.. They're headed by a meatheaded retired marine who reminds me of the guy from Avatar, and everyone else follows suit. When they first started the video Duke Nukem as I call him walks up to the interviewer and slams his palm into his chest, like they're in fucking Nam.. It almost knocks the wind out of the guy.. Douchebag. After waiting for Halo Reach, and following the Bungie crew (Who are A LOT like BLizzard, that's prob why they're working together now! ) switching over to waiting for Black Ops was just sad and comical.
An this is just speaking of their COD franchise(s), which on a side note, if you look hard enough, back far enough, they is a lot of dirt on Activision saying how having 2 contrasting COD games will keep a constant reliable cash flow. Just Sayin'
The way I see it, The Activision/Blizzard deal is like an successful Pimp, working with a successful Artiest..
***
Okay.. Phew.. Anyway even with Activision in the scheme of things, I slightly remember reading that Blizzard still has full control over, well everything Blizzard related. So while stock holders now have a bit more pull on the money strings for Blizzard, I don't think they'll let it change their moto, or habits. After watching the anniversary video, I'm even more sure of this.
This all links to, I don't think Blizzard is effected by the, -This needs to get done, NOW- effect. Which is why I still say 2012
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
In alot of ways I'm leaning towards wanting january simply because decemeber is a write off in so many ways. I have no time to play much in the way of games.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
Okay.. Phew.. Anyway even with Activision in the scheme of things, I slightly remember reading that Blizzard still has full control over, well everything Blizzard related. So while stock holders now have a bit more pull on the money strings for Blizzard, I don't think they'll let it change their moto, or habits. After watching the anniversary video, I'm even more sure of this.
This all links to, I don't think Blizzard is effected by the, -This needs to get done, NOW- effect. Which is why I still say 2012
So here's the secret; I believe the game will come out in Q1 of 2012. For all my ranting about it still coming out this year, its my gut feeling that they will wait. I don't think it makes sense for them to wait - for all the reasons I've mentioned - but it's what I think will happen. I think Blizz is all about their autonomy from Activision and continuing their good brand and take on games. If they want to fine tune - they will, no matter how long it takes. I do believe they will be pressured to get it out there and that if its held over into 2012, there will be some intense discussions to that end with the Suits. My pipe dreams tell me November. My optimism tells me December. My gut tells me 2012.
Exactly, logically from a financial point of view (which I think drive the reasoning behind a lot of 2011 theories) Blizzard should release the game asap, which as you said is December. Though from a Blizzard philosophy, they'll "Try" to get it out 2011, but end up releasing a Blizzard standard polished game Q1 2012.
Also I'm glad you feel the same way about Activision lol
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
Definitely read the long posts folks! Winged and I disagree pretty loudly sometimes but he's a smart dude with lots of reasonable things to say. That's what makes a lot of this discussion so divisive, both sides (IMO) have pretty reasonable thought supporting them, I don't think anybody is going too far out on any limbs here.
And we can all get behind the Activision sentiments I think. Blizzard has essentially maintained complete autonomy in their involvements with them, which we should all be grateful for.
Exactly, logically from a financial point of view (which I think drive the reasoning behind a lot of 2011 theories) Blizzard should release the game asap, which as you said is December. Though from a Blizzard philosophy, they'll "Try" to get it out 2011, but end up releasing a Blizzard standard polished game Q1 2012.
Also I'm glad you feel the same way about Activision lol
I don't blame them for holding onto it. Okay, it does suck and I'll admit, I've let out a few "really Blizz, really?!" - but I'm glad this game is going to be to their standard of polish. The winter months are a slow time for my business anyway, so I can devote the proper amount of time to this legendary game
And Activision is a sad, sad company. I'm a Transformers fan and the shitstorm of games they've put out, based on the movie franchise, have been embarrassingly pathetic. Sadly, the wife and I own Activision/Blizzard stock (at my insistence) and I cringe every time I read about a new Activision release...
Definitely read the long posts folks! Winged and I disagree pretty loudly sometimes but he's a smart dude with lots of reasonable things to say. That's what makes a lot of this discussion so divisive, both sides (IMO) have pretty reasonable thought supporting them, I don't think anybody is going too far out on any limbs here.
I agree with this statement and highly encourage folks to read the posts - even though it may take a few moments out of your day. Not only do you get a good sense of opinion surrounding the issues, but there are some great ideas in there, that might inspire you to come up with some equally good ideas on your own.
Besides, what else do you have to do. Diablo 3 isn't out yet.
As much as it pains me to say it I have to agree with winged and polrayne. Having waited for and played every blizz game since the late 90s I know they will always push it as far as they can before release. It doesn't even have to be a game breaking issue that will cause them to push to jan or feb 2012. Jay could just look at the game in November and say "I think we need more polish on this act" and voilà we are at a 2012 release date. That being said i would love to be wrong.
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While in theory this is somewhat true, there are a few things I can counter that with. One, I think you over estimate how long it will take players to start to reach at those "far off" items. Blizz has stated that we'll likely be max level (60) by the end of hell, and that the acts are about as long as D2. So one could do the math and say that a truly hardcore player could reach 60 in say, 2-3 days. This doesn't mean they'll be rolling in level 14 gems obviously, but I don't think Blizzard would under any pressure to release not have all their game balanced appropriately upon release.
As said by them, they are pushing for the 2011 window, but will not sacrifice any quality to meet this time frame.
As for the topic of small imperfections in balance across any one of D3's systems isn't a big deal, I see what you guys are saying, but again seeing as Blizzard is quality before ANYTHING, I feel they won't settle for the standard in which you're implying. This isn't to say PvP, I'm pretty sure we all know how they feel about PvP, I'm saying PvE, and all systems involved, ie Gems, Skills, Traits, Buffs, and so on.
The fact that Blizzard is still even hoping for a 2011 release and targeting Q3 for beta tells me it's not going to be hugely important, as Kiserai very astutely pointed out (+1 Kiserai, he's got game). And the last coup-de-grace.. Wilson keeps insisting that the sheer number of builds will effectively negate min-max rock/paper/scissors imbalances, and you know what? I believe him. Why? I don't know. I just like the guy. He has a face I can trust. I'd buy a car off him, not cause I need it, but because I like his face.
Jay would never lie.
Anyway, I don't think there will be that much to do in the beta. It'll mainly be a formality to generate buzz so they can sell the balls off this thing come Christmas 2011. Oops! Did I just say that?
-Thomas Jefferson
His face is full of grace when he wears his beard.
For the sake of not repeating myself more than I already have, I'll just generally state, of course Blizzard would like the game out 2011, to polish the year for their financial purposes. Though in the most simple of form I can put it, here's the chart in MY head, again my opinion.
Beta September 1st -
2-6 month length -
Best case - 2 month beta, leaves the game polished come November. Blizzard franticly articles all the paperwork and licencing, pushes the game mid December.
In my head, 10% chance.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Most likely scenario - 3 month beta, leaves the game polished come December. Blizzard is silent all month knowing any sound from them will attract an army of pissed off fans.
70% chance.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Worse case - Justin Bieber
X% chance.
As for releasing code that needs patching, it's rarely black and white. I agree that it's criminal to release code that you know for sure is not working, intending to patch it post-sale. But that's not a likely scenario with a Bliz title.
The first thing you have to accept is that you'll never reach 0 defects, ever. In the system/scale phase of testing, there are going to be weird, corner-case bugs that are not reproducible. Some of those will be severe. But delaying release for such bugs is, for all practical purposes, impossible. So you put them in the release notes and keep working at it post-release with subsequent builds.
Once a million people get playtime, one of the uglies will sometimes rear its head and require emergency patching. It happens. But it's a lot easier to root-cause when there are a million use-cases to cross-reference.
Generally, when it comes to quality, Blizzard has set the high water-mark in my opinion. J-dub would not do me like that.
-Thomas Jefferson
Pertaining to "quality before anything"; I totally agree with you. My stance on these issues is from a logical place - however I feel that one key factor is always missing - the developers desire to make a perfect game. There are several sides to a company like Blizzard, but two key parts of it in this case are the creative side and the business side (to simplify).
The creative side is what has been dragging this game through the years, creating, perfecting, recreating, re perfecting. I get the feeling that, if it were left up to them, this game would take a few more years before they would be willing to let it out of their sight. This isn't a bad thing - the have passion to make a great game. But until its done, they won't let it go.
The business side are the fellows in big Suits that pound the tables saying "get it done and make it perfect - or else", which is essentially the whip that drive the team to pull the game along. However, its lasted long enough - the game is ready to go through a Beta in a few months and with all the other factors they talked about (WoW decreased subscriptions, revamping content delivery to keep people in the game, etc) in the call, those Suits are going to push the developers out into the light with their game.
Have you ever moved from one home to another? Remember how months before you started idly packing a few things. Then the day of, when one of out ten rooms is packed and you just start throwing crap into bags. When someone walks up with a priceless piece and you glance at it and say "keep it for yourself or toss it, I don't care - I want this crap done!" This is how I think a bit of this process is going. They've got 7/8 of the rooms packed and its about to be moving day. They can fix the rest later in patches.
As for the beginning of your post, I also agree. I just feel that it won't be "game breaking" for blizz to make some changes in two or three months, post release, that effects play style - because most won't even have come close to approaching a perfect play style. If they can do that - then that shaves off a few months of Beta.
Monkalicious: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/OptimusPrime-12194/hero/79139477
An yes I know what's it like to move, and the last minute realization that this needs to be done, NOW. I'm sure Blizzard is being pressured by multiple sources to get new content out, but I also feel that they have no true -Needs to be done by THIS date- deals with anyone.
Activision is a shit company, flat out.. They move out games faster than people want to buy them, put people do because we feel the need to update constantly. They also move out overpriced DLC just as fast. Most games are replaced within a year.. To me they are the BP Oil of the gaming world, in it souly for the money. Following as you may expect from the first law of business, -lead by example- even the groups who make the games themselves seem to follow Activision's mentality.
Sorry this is going to be a little rant on Activision, feel free to skip to the marker (***) for on topic post.
Look at COD (Infinity Ward, who now has like 6 of it's original members btw), they litrially are using the COD 2 game engine, and have stated they plan on using it in the upcoming COD.. Like fucking really? Milking the cow much? "We follow the if it isn't broke don't fix it mentality." WELL OF COURSE YA DO!! It's bring in undeserved cash flow!!.. Look at Dice, they made 2 fucking games, awesome games, and already came out with a new game engine, at that it's a fucking true phyics engine with advanced destructible structures, and true particle effects.. As for the other side of COD, after watching the -making of- video for Black Ops (Now over to Treyarch) I instantly hated them, their mentally sucks.. They're headed by a meatheaded retired marine who reminds me of the guy from Avatar, and everyone else follows suit. When they first started the video Duke Nukem as I call him walks up to the interviewer and slams his palm into his chest, like they're in fucking Nam.. It almost knocks the wind out of the guy.. Douchebag. After waiting for Halo Reach, and following the Bungie crew (Who are A LOT like BLizzard, that's prob why they're working together now! ) switching over to waiting for Black Ops was just sad and comical.
An this is just speaking of their COD franchise(s), which on a side note, if you look hard enough, back far enough, they is a lot of dirt on Activision saying how having 2 contrasting COD games will keep a constant reliable cash flow. Just Sayin'
The way I see it, The Activision/Blizzard deal is like an successful Pimp, working with a successful Artiest..
***
Okay.. Phew.. Anyway even with
Activisionin the scheme of things, I slightly remember reading that Blizzard still has full control over, well everything Blizzard related. So while stock holders now have a bit more pull on the money strings for Blizzard, I don't think they'll let it change their moto, or habits. After watching the anniversary video, I'm even more sure of this.This all links to, I don't think Blizzard is effected by the, -This needs to get done, NOW- effect. Which is why I still say 2012
In alot of ways I'm leaning towards wanting january simply because decemeber is a write off in so many ways. I have no time to play much in the way of games.
But mine is good, I swear!
I about fell out of my chair laughing at this one. I too agree, completely, with your opinion on this
So here's the secret; I believe the game will come out in Q1 of 2012. For all my ranting about it still coming out this year, its my gut feeling that they will wait. I don't think it makes sense for them to wait - for all the reasons I've mentioned - but it's what I think will happen. I think Blizz is all about their autonomy from Activision and continuing their good brand and take on games. If they want to fine tune - they will, no matter how long it takes. I do believe they will be pressured to get it out there and that if its held over into 2012, there will be some intense discussions to that end with the Suits. My pipe dreams tell me November. My optimism tells me December. My gut tells me 2012.
Monkalicious: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/OptimusPrime-12194/hero/79139477
Also I'm glad you feel the same way about Activision lol
And we can all get behind the Activision sentiments I think. Blizzard has essentially maintained complete autonomy in their involvements with them, which we should all be grateful for.
I don't blame them for holding onto it. Okay, it does suck and I'll admit, I've let out a few "really Blizz, really?!" - but I'm glad this game is going to be to their standard of polish. The winter months are a slow time for my business anyway, so I can devote the proper amount of time to this legendary game
And Activision is a sad, sad company. I'm a Transformers fan and the shitstorm of games they've put out, based on the movie franchise, have been embarrassingly pathetic. Sadly, the wife and I own Activision/Blizzard stock (at my insistence) and I cringe every time I read about a new Activision release...
I agree with this statement and highly encourage folks to read the posts - even though it may take a few moments out of your day. Not only do you get a good sense of opinion surrounding the issues, but there are some great ideas in there, that might inspire you to come up with some equally good ideas on your own.
Besides, what else do you have to do. Diablo 3 isn't out yet.
Monkalicious: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/OptimusPrime-12194/hero/79139477