We all hope D3 is evolue in this aspect. We all wait for an more challenging and skill intensive game. Not necesserely harder.
Not going to happen.
Raising monster HP and forcing people into cookie cutter builds is more massively approved than actually making the game demand more skill.
Despite that, noone can deny that minmax should play a large role in the most dificulty parts of the game.
If so, please at least TRY to make it somewhat intuitive. In DII most of the time it makes no sense whatsoever (STR is useless for melee chars etc., half the skills in the game are useless aka Thorns Aura), good luck figuring it out without a calculator/cookie cutters + inside knowledge since there's very little info on items (attack rating, required attack rating to hit something, real speed, etc.), or skills, for that matter. The game really should not require anyone to minmax. That's an option for people who like to do it and want to make the game easy for themselves. Right now the game basically tells "BlueBerryMuffin you" to anyone who wants to try some fun or hybrid build or other.
We all hope D3 is evolue in this aspect. We all wait for an more challenging and skill intensive game. Not necesserely harder.
Not going to happen.
Raising monster HP and forcing people into cookie cutter builds is more massively approved than actually making the game demand more skill.
Despite that, noone can deny that minmax should play a large role in the most dificulty parts of the game.
If so, please at least TRY to make it somewhat intuitive. In DII most of the time it makes no sense whatsoever (STR is useless for melee chars etc., half the skills in the game are useless aka Thorns Aura), good luck figuring it out without a calculator/cookie cutters + inside knowledge since there's very little info on items (attack rating, required attack rating to hit something, real speed, etc.), or skills, for that matter. The game really should not require anyone to minmax. That's an option for people who like to do it and want to make the game easy for themselves. Right now the game basically tells "BlueBerryMuffin you" to anyone who wants to try some fun or hybrid build or other.
YES PLEASE! If you load the game with mods that change game mechanics, like increased attack speed, block rate, etc, please explain them IN GAME. I loved the ability to improve my character that way, but I hated having to leave the game to find out what certain mods did, or what breakpoints were, and if adding 10% ias actually mattered.
And, sorry to ask, but noob is in my name, but what is minmax? I googled it, but all that came back was math theory.
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A save/load system can be abused easily and only works in single player games.
This is multiplayer we're talking about. If you die you just spawn near a checkpoint with all your gear intact ready to go again.
Where is the challenge? If something is really hard all you have to do is aggro it to the nearest checkpoint because death doesn't matter and there is no penalty.
While I agree a penalty isn't needed that isn't my concern, my concern is that it may make the game way too easy and forgiving.
Not to mention the challenge in a game in no way has to come from its death penalty. If your fighting a boss and you have to keep trying him over and over, you'd consider it challenging simply because of the amount of retries you have. Even if you spawned right outside of the boss room every time and didn't lose any gold (which is not the case in D3), it would still be a challenging fight just because of how hard it is to down the boss.
This thread seems to be getting a tad off topic talking about NM and Hell and about how much skill or who should be able to get where. I thought this thread was made to discuss the lacking of a death penalty in normal. Which I actually like.
It is an easy way for Blizzard to toughen up normal. If there's no DP then they can kill you more. Removing the DP makes it much easier for casual gamers to be able to at least beat the game once and get the so called "full experience" while at the same time making it tougher because there would be less of a reason for them not to make it too tough.
If there were some annoying DP in normal then they would focus more on balancing it giving you more of a fair chance, but without one they can just say "Well you can usually do this with out dying... close enough." with out it having a major effect on your actual progression.
I invite a chance to a tougher first play through and believe that no DP is a great way to give us a challenge while still giving the casual gamers a fair chance the first time through.
If you consider it to be easier because you can die multiple times and still proceed. I think you should think for a second. Like what the previous poster said difficulty can easily be measured by the amount of times you retried something or died. Also I believe bosses won't be as easily to take advantage of with respawns.
I guess I'll express my opinion about NM/Hell since that's where this topic seem to have gone.
Nightmare was actually tough to me as a casual gamer because I usually got there around my low 30s with no real build, which really sucked lol. As I learned more about the game though it was just too easy for most builds to get through with crap gear. I think if you have some good rares from lucky drops or w/e with a nice build. Nightmare shouldn't be too hard. Nightmare is a stage that gets you prepared for hell imo. It should make you fear death much more than normal and make it more of a possibility. That said, with good gear most mobs shouldn't be a threat except for bosses, super uniques (Thousand Pounder dude and what not), and some unique monsters with killer enchants or a specific monster that's tough enough w/o being a unique.
If you have crap gear, but you're a skilled player and know what you're doing you should progress a tad slower, but at a steady rate. Skill and knowledge will be more balanced in D3 it looks like. Seeing how much tougher it is to escape and some of the nice enchants monsters can come with. Even with skill i think a vortex or teleporting enchanted monster can kill even the most skilled players occasionally.
About Hell... It should just be hard. Idk what to say besides that. Casual gamers should MAYBE be able to finish it with some of the best gear, but seeing how they won't be able to get it... I don't think many casuals will be able to beat it. Skilled players should be able to beat it with good gear. A few rares maybe a unique or two with a crated item or so. Nothing special just a nice set of items with a good build and a skilled player should be able to beat it. Otherwise what's the point of end game content?
Oh and also in hell, everyone should die at least once their first time through.
And what i mean by casual is sort of like a noob... Not as skilled as most or have as much knowledge about the game and doesn't put as much time into the game. I don't understand how I could have been so crappy at D2 when I started, so I use that as a measurement of casual players. I just played the game leisurely and didn't care to look up anything or think too much about builds. There are other people who may consider themselves casual players, but don't play like it at all, so I wouldn't include them. Just because you don't play much or don't put much into a game shouldn't classify you as casual. Sort of like how I play D2 now. I play it once a week or so "casually", but I breeze through it because I'm not a casual player. I think I'm sort of ranting about it now, so I'll just say casual players are new people to the game that don't invest much into it. If you have an account here, chances are you're not casual lol.
P.S. By unique monsters I mean the enchanted ones of course. Idk if they're calling it something else or what. I know boneash, countess, etc... were super uniques, so I assume the random ones are just called uniques.
This is multiplayer we're talking about. If you die you just spawn near a checkpoint with all your gear intact ready to go again.
No need to be so limited.
There's nothing particularly to abuse in save/load. If needed, there can be limitations on where you can save.
Save/load works just fine in multiplayer games except you no longer can choose where to save. Instead, the respawn saves your whole group. So when you die, you go back to the respawn point, you lose all the items you have found since that point, and all the monsters are alive again. This is the analogy to save-load in a multiplayer scenario.
DII implemented an easier system, you just had to run back to your corpse.
By with DII/WoW they decided corpse runs were stupid so now you don't even do the corpse run.
They're making the death experience less annoying. I can't say I agree or disagree with it, I just don't really care because no matter what the penalty is, I am going to avoid dying for the sake of avoiding dying.
Where is the challenge?
While I agree a penalty isn't needed that isn't my concern, my concern is that it may make the game way too easy and forgiving.
Games are not made easy or hard via death penalties. All that leads to is more busy work. Games are made hard via the mechanics. Go kill some spitting dogs or succubi in Diablo 1.
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Raising monster HP and forcing people into cookie cutter builds is more massively approved than actually making the game demand more skill.
If so, please at least TRY to make it somewhat intuitive. In DII most of the time it makes no sense whatsoever (STR is useless for melee chars etc., half the skills in the game are useless aka Thorns Aura), good luck figuring it out without a calculator/cookie cutters + inside knowledge since there's very little info on items (attack rating, required attack rating to hit something, real speed, etc.), or skills, for that matter. The game really should not require anyone to minmax. That's an option for people who like to do it and want to make the game easy for themselves. Right now the game basically tells "BlueBerryMuffin you" to anyone who wants to try some fun or hybrid build or other.
YES PLEASE! If you load the game with mods that change game mechanics, like increased attack speed, block rate, etc, please explain them IN GAME. I loved the ability to improve my character that way, but I hated having to leave the game to find out what certain mods did, or what breakpoints were, and if adding 10% ias actually mattered.
And, sorry to ask, but noob is in my name, but what is minmax? I googled it, but all that came back was math theory.
In my vast experience, minmax is a chewing gum made in Peru with strong mint flavor.
Or it could also be this weird thing that these guys are explaining here.
Min max means you sit with a calculator and figure out which skills, attributes, and gear, all together, will yield the most effective build.
This is multiplayer we're talking about. If you die you just spawn near a checkpoint with all your gear intact ready to go again.
Where is the challenge? If something is really hard all you have to do is aggro it to the nearest checkpoint because death doesn't matter and there is no penalty.
While I agree a penalty isn't needed that isn't my concern, my concern is that it may make the game way too easy and forgiving.
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It is an easy way for Blizzard to toughen up normal. If there's no DP then they can kill you more. Removing the DP makes it much easier for casual gamers to be able to at least beat the game once and get the so called "full experience" while at the same time making it tougher because there would be less of a reason for them not to make it too tough.
If there were some annoying DP in normal then they would focus more on balancing it giving you more of a fair chance, but without one they can just say "Well you can usually do this with out dying... close enough." with out it having a major effect on your actual progression.
I invite a chance to a tougher first play through and believe that no DP is a great way to give us a challenge while still giving the casual gamers a fair chance the first time through.
If you consider it to be easier because you can die multiple times and still proceed. I think you should think for a second. Like what the previous poster said difficulty can easily be measured by the amount of times you retried something or died. Also I believe bosses won't be as easily to take advantage of with respawns.
I guess I'll express my opinion about NM/Hell since that's where this topic seem to have gone.
Nightmare was actually tough to me as a casual gamer because I usually got there around my low 30s with no real build, which really sucked lol. As I learned more about the game though it was just too easy for most builds to get through with crap gear. I think if you have some good rares from lucky drops or w/e with a nice build. Nightmare shouldn't be too hard. Nightmare is a stage that gets you prepared for hell imo. It should make you fear death much more than normal and make it more of a possibility. That said, with good gear most mobs shouldn't be a threat except for bosses, super uniques (Thousand Pounder dude and what not), and some unique monsters with killer enchants or a specific monster that's tough enough w/o being a unique.
If you have crap gear, but you're a skilled player and know what you're doing you should progress a tad slower, but at a steady rate. Skill and knowledge will be more balanced in D3 it looks like. Seeing how much tougher it is to escape and some of the nice enchants monsters can come with. Even with skill i think a vortex or teleporting enchanted monster can kill even the most skilled players occasionally.
About Hell... It should just be hard. Idk what to say besides that. Casual gamers should MAYBE be able to finish it with some of the best gear, but seeing how they won't be able to get it... I don't think many casuals will be able to beat it. Skilled players should be able to beat it with good gear. A few rares maybe a unique or two with a crated item or so. Nothing special just a nice set of items with a good build and a skilled player should be able to beat it. Otherwise what's the point of end game content?
Oh and also in hell, everyone should die at least once their first time through.
And what i mean by casual is sort of like a noob... Not as skilled as most or have as much knowledge about the game and doesn't put as much time into the game. I don't understand how I could have been so crappy at D2 when I started, so I use that as a measurement of casual players. I just played the game leisurely and didn't care to look up anything or think too much about builds. There are other people who may consider themselves casual players, but don't play like it at all, so I wouldn't include them. Just because you don't play much or don't put much into a game shouldn't classify you as casual. Sort of like how I play D2 now. I play it once a week or so "casually", but I breeze through it because I'm not a casual player. I think I'm sort of ranting about it now, so I'll just say casual players are new people to the game that don't invest much into it. If you have an account here, chances are you're not casual lol.
P.S. By unique monsters I mean the enchanted ones of course. Idk if they're calling it something else or what. I know boneash, countess, etc... were super uniques, so I assume the random ones are just called uniques.
There's nothing particularly to abuse in save/load. If needed, there can be limitations on where you can save.
Save/load works just fine in multiplayer games except you no longer can choose where to save. Instead, the respawn saves your whole group. So when you die, you go back to the respawn point, you lose all the items you have found since that point, and all the monsters are alive again. This is the analogy to save-load in a multiplayer scenario.
DII implemented an easier system, you just had to run back to your corpse.
By with DII/WoW they decided corpse runs were stupid so now you don't even do the corpse run.
They're making the death experience less annoying. I can't say I agree or disagree with it, I just don't really care because no matter what the penalty is, I am going to avoid dying for the sake of avoiding dying.
Games are not made easy or hard via death penalties. All that leads to is more busy work. Games are made hard via the mechanics. Go kill some spitting dogs or succubi in Diablo 1.