I wonder, would it be harder for the diablo crew to ballance pvp and still make characters feel unique, or make it so the random generation of levels keeps us entertained for a prolonged time (unlike the repeditive look of d2)
Lol, the vast majority of PvP players care nothing about balance, they just spam hammers then claim that it's all about skill. There is very little skill involved in D2 PvP anymore, it's all about items.
That's a generalization that's true about the majority of PvP and PvM players. If something is easy, cheap, and gets you what you want, most will abuse it.
It is hard to make random dungeons that feel random. The same thing goes for quests.
I think the best way is by going to an NPC and either buying random quest which you can choose what the difficulty is going to be in a screen. You can decide on what the level of the monster is and other difficulties. You can also decide on the general layout of the area if it is outside or in a dungeon. I am thinking that you can make the monster levels up to 999 or even higher so that some of the levels will be almost impossible to complete. It can also work nicely on achievements for Battlenet if they plan on it.
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Having played the "random" quests thus far I don't even see myself wasting my time completing them. They were mediocre and the rewards weren't worth the energy put into doing the quest.
PvE dies down in Diablo no doubt and Diablo 3 ends up just as Diablo 1 and 2 did unless they actually take care of the game (Laugh).
PvP reigns in Diablo cause it is just what Diablo is. It is blood, it is random, it is hell.
Hammerdins are only useful in PvP because of a glitch with charge and vigor, beside any decent elemental druid will stomp hammerdins easy. Diablo's PvP is actually pretty well balanced if you know what you are doing, of course if you have no idea how to PvP then I am sure when you and 6 of your PvM friends die to 1 person you feel it is all about items and rigged.
Oh lol, umm... If you Make a character, and you think he is good, and you enter pvp late-game and get pwnt in the face, you go and see why.
When you figure out that its because the pve people have just played mind numbingly for weeks without sleep, you may have to do the same (grinding) to make a difference, making all aspects of the pvp stage boring.
Die continuously, or grind till your braindead to not die.
From what ive seen, pvp lovers like ballance in order for their skillz to make a difference in the tide of battle.
Totally untrue. A person that plays the pve side of diablo almost exclusively won't have the skill to beat a pure pvp player(meaning someone who doesn't search for perfect statted gear, but has some of top gear available). I enjoy the PvE when it's available in any game, but PvP is what keeps me playing for long periods of time in any game genre.
For example, I've played Bioshock 2, Dragon Age: Origins, and Mass Effect 2 in the last couple months. Obviously Bioshock 2 and Mass Effect 2 just came out recently. I played through DA:O twice, once good, once evil. I will likely do the same with Mass Effect 2. However, I will continue to play Bioshock 2 online because the multiplayer keeps the game fresh. You're always playing different people(especially since they don't have dedicated servers) and it's basically a new experience each time you play. Sure you play against people with the same weapons/loadouts, but varying skill keeps the game fresh.
Point of the story? For players with my mindset, you can only play through a games story so many times before you grow bored and move on to the next game. PvP helps extend a games longevity and I think Blizzard realizes this.
Especially since Blizzard is making the drops of the game not have astronomical chances to drop, tough to get still, but not nearly as tough as its predecessor.
I've liked Diablo mainly because of the story. So, for me, it's no question - PvE. To me, video games, be it PC or console, are like books without words. There are times, however, I occasionally get some books that go "Bad guy over there. You kick it's arse. Lots of blood, gore, flying limbs and partial nudity. The end."
Normally, I'm a single player kinda guy; however, if I was to do anything co-op or multiplayer, it'd be with people I know and that like the game as much as I do. Generally, I've avoided playing anything on-line. I posted my thoughts about this sort of thing on the 'Soul Bound Items?' thread so I will not bother repeating it here.
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Avast ye! Scyberdragon be te thank for the sig, arr!
Point of the story? For players with my mindset, you can only play through a games story so many times before you grow bored and move on to the next game. PvP helps extend a games longevity
Agree.
and I think Blizzard realizes this.
Disagree. With a lot of the crap they've announced so far with D3 I'm not sure they realize what kept D2 popular for so long. I wonder if anyone working on D3 was even a long time fan of D2.
Judging by the D2 patch and the people working on it not even having a clue what basic D2 lingo was, it makes me wonder if anyone currently involved with the D2 franchise is a long time fan of the game that was ever even a decent pvp'er.
PvP because you're fighting someone you can ... A. Talk to (So when you lose you can cuss them out.. lol jk... but seriously) B. Not scripted and unpredictable.. Always making you better at playing when you're facing something new.
edit: You people that just like to play single player I really don't get..(In no way am I saying it's bad so don't take offense) I'm just saying I don't understand because there have been very few single player games that I played and kept with and beat. I need to talk to other people and play with other people, community is number one. That's a huge reason why I quit some MMO's is because the community sucked.
Sooo...just curious, why do you guys like to be lone wolfs?
That's a huge reason why I quit some MMO's is because the community sucked.
Sooo...just curious, why do you guys like to be lone wolfs?
I believe you just answered you're own question with your own reason. It's not the only reason, but that's a big one. For me, it's similar - I've come across too many people that I've wanted to smash in the face with a piece of heavy mining equipment, disembowel with a wooden cooking spoon and hope that they get penciled in for a sudden visit with the angel of death. So, in order to better enjoy the game in question, I leave everyone else out of my gaming experience so that I don't have the feeling of liquid hatred gushing from my eyeballs. I would imagine that there are other reasons people are "lone wolves" but, as with most MMOs or multiplayer games, community is a biggie.
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Avast ye! Scyberdragon be te thank for the sig, arr!
That's a huge reason why I quit some MMO's is because the community sucked.
Sooo...just curious, why do you guys like to be lone wolfs?
I believe you just answered your own question with most people. It's not the only reason, but that's a big one. For me, it's exactly that reason - I avoid playing with other people because, whether in winning or losing, there's always that one person that I want to smash in the face with a piece of heavy mining equipment, disembowel with a wooden cooking spoon and hope he (usually it's men that behave this way, I've noticed) gets penciled in for a sudden visit from the angel of death. I've noticed that when I play single player, in any game which multiplayer is an option, I tend not to have the feeling of gallons upon gallons of liquid hatred about to start gushing from my eyeballs. So, that's why I play games solo. I'm usually happier that way.
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Avast ye! Scyberdragon be te thank for the sig, arr!
I usually like to play at my own pace. I quite often like to do full clears and not do any rushes. You usually do not get that in a multiplayer co-op. I usually wound up playing solo in large games on b-net due to other players wishing to rush through the acts or there is at least one person in the party that pisses me off.
When 1.09 came along I was almost always playing single player since I could then do the players command.
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I must admit that SP have it's charm too (actually I play D2 SP, i quited b.net years ago). The lack of good items and OP allies makes the game fairly challenging.
But I answerd the pool based at what i want for D3, not what i do in D2 :/
For me it just depends on the type of game. Fighting games are almost always better against other players and FPS often are as well. A game like Diablo though is all about PvE(including lan co-op) for me.
PvP in D2 was pretty bad in my opinion. I played PvP in D2 a number of times and did reasonably well, but it was never particularly enjoyable past one or two brief fights. It was the PvE that had me coming back over a decade or so and continuing to enjoy the game. I assume D3 will be the same for me.
PVE enjoyment while I experience the game for the first time. Relish the story and adventure. Play through a few different characters.
Then PVE for 2 or 3 more months until I build up a bit of item wealth.
Then I hope into the PVP trading scene, and for the next 10 years I PVP to my hearts content, or until I'm forced to quit b/c the game is eating up too much of my time
Can't stand PVE after i've already experienced the game, lore, story, and beat the bosses a few times. Bores me to tears
i'm a big Street Fighter Alpha 3 player, and nothing was more fun in that game than playing Dramatic Battle (2 players vs. one CPU) and trying to pull off the most spectacular things you could, liking finishing the round with a double Super Psycho Crusher, one from each side. i don't care if i have bragging rights for beating other people, only insecure people need that. it's all about the quality and 'spectacularity' of the gameplay to me.
another example would be the Pro Evolution Soccer/Winning Eleven series; yeah, it's cool to play 1vs1, but the best mode is 2 vs. CPU, or 2 vs. 2, because you can make the most spectacular plays with 2 players on the same team. who cares about saying "YEAH, I BEAT YOU, I'M THE GREATEST", when you can just day "dude, that was the most spectacular goal i've seen, we rock" ?
Agreed, hence the "almost" on fighting games. Really the most interesting/spectacular fights I've had on most fighting games was one on one, typically with my brother. On Bloody Roar 1-3 we had some of the most entertaining fights. The original Smash Brothers had some good moments too. On the note of changing how the game is played in multiplayer, I remember we would divide the screen with a partition as kids while playing Street Fighter 2, that was an interesting twist with some fond memories.
As for sports games, I definitely agree that co-op is generally much more fun.
And you're right about playing with others not being about bragging rights or the trend of who's better, for me it's each individual match/game and those various "holy crap that was great" moments.
To tie it all back to Diablo, unfortunately I didn't see any of those in the D2 PvP. Instead the fights seemed dull and purely about being the best. Co-op was a lot of fun though, so even for multiplayer PvE was better.
@Zoobi: none of those games is remotely comparable to diablo; they don't have MP and aren't loot-driven games. the only thing they have in common is being RPGs. i got bored of mass effect quite fast, yet i still play D2, often SP. explain that to me, then.
You're a different kind of player. All there is to it. That post was from MY perspective, not trying to determine other players playstyles. You're the kind of person who has to have a carrot on a stick(i.e. loot) to play a game over a long period of time.
I'm the kind of person who has to have a challenge to play a game over a long period of time before I get bored. Completely different playstyles for completely different people
Although I don't quite understand the point of playing single player past once or twice. So you can get better loot for killing.......monsters? I can see how some people may like it, but it's definately not for people with my mindset/playstyle.
From my extremely limited pvping in diablo - and wow did I get my arse kicked - I had fun, but I felt it was very much decided by who had what items, which was a huge drag for me, as I just cannot be arsed to go farm gold for longer than necessary.
Some builds can do alright with limited gear, but I won't deny it helps to have all the bells and whistles. Pretty much don't bother trying to make melee builds if your not rich, and you can at least get a few kills in here and there. A general rule of thumb is if you don't have max res in hell your just going to get raped hard in pvp.
The other thing people don't grasp that it takes a while to learn the ins and outs of, is every build has some it pwns and some it loses against, so learning how to play to maximize in various scenarios helps a ton. Its easy to just think OMG THIS GUYS PWNING ME BECUASE HIS GEARS BETTER, when it may partially be true but your overlooking your problably just being outplayed.
Get real, folks, the diablo you all knew is dead, a few years ago i said right here in this forum that D3 had a pretty good chance of being blizzard first bust (i was flamed to death ofc), and what you know, its not even beta and its already looking that way.
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That's a generalization that's true about the majority of PvP and PvM players. If something is easy, cheap, and gets you what you want, most will abuse it.
I think the best way is by going to an NPC and either buying random quest which you can choose what the difficulty is going to be in a screen. You can decide on what the level of the monster is and other difficulties. You can also decide on the general layout of the area if it is outside or in a dungeon. I am thinking that you can make the monster levels up to 999 or even higher so that some of the levels will be almost impossible to complete. It can also work nicely on achievements for Battlenet if they plan on it.
PvE dies down in Diablo no doubt and Diablo 3 ends up just as Diablo 1 and 2 did unless they actually take care of the game (Laugh).
PvP reigns in Diablo cause it is just what Diablo is. It is blood, it is random, it is hell.
Hammerdins are only useful in PvP because of a glitch with charge and vigor, beside any decent elemental druid will stomp hammerdins easy. Diablo's PvP is actually pretty well balanced if you know what you are doing, of course if you have no idea how to PvP then I am sure when you and 6 of your PvM friends die to 1 person you feel it is all about items and rigged.
Totally untrue. A person that plays the pve side of diablo almost exclusively won't have the skill to beat a pure pvp player(meaning someone who doesn't search for perfect statted gear, but has some of top gear available). I enjoy the PvE when it's available in any game, but PvP is what keeps me playing for long periods of time in any game genre.
For example, I've played Bioshock 2, Dragon Age: Origins, and Mass Effect 2 in the last couple months. Obviously Bioshock 2 and Mass Effect 2 just came out recently. I played through DA:O twice, once good, once evil. I will likely do the same with Mass Effect 2. However, I will continue to play Bioshock 2 online because the multiplayer keeps the game fresh. You're always playing different people(especially since they don't have dedicated servers) and it's basically a new experience each time you play. Sure you play against people with the same weapons/loadouts, but varying skill keeps the game fresh.
Point of the story? For players with my mindset, you can only play through a games story so many times before you grow bored and move on to the next game. PvP helps extend a games longevity and I think Blizzard realizes this.
Especially since Blizzard is making the drops of the game not have astronomical chances to drop, tough to get still, but not nearly as tough as its predecessor.
Normally, I'm a single player kinda guy; however, if I was to do anything co-op or multiplayer, it'd be with people I know and that like the game as much as I do. Generally, I've avoided playing anything on-line. I posted my thoughts about this sort of thing on the 'Soul Bound Items?' thread so I will not bother repeating it here.
Avast ye! Scyberdragon be te thank for the sig, arr!
Agree.
Disagree. With a lot of the crap they've announced so far with D3 I'm not sure they realize what kept D2 popular for so long. I wonder if anyone working on D3 was even a long time fan of D2.
Judging by the D2 patch and the people working on it not even having a clue what basic D2 lingo was, it makes me wonder if anyone currently involved with the D2 franchise is a long time fan of the game that was ever even a decent pvp'er.
edit: You people that just like to play single player I really don't get..(In no way am I saying it's bad so don't take offense) I'm just saying I don't understand because there have been very few single player games that I played and kept with and beat. I need to talk to other people and play with other people, community is number one. That's a huge reason why I quit some MMO's is because the community sucked.
Sooo...just curious, why do you guys like to be lone wolfs?
♣Strength and Honor♣
I believe you just answered you're own question with your own reason. It's not the only reason, but that's a big one. For me, it's similar - I've come across too many people that I've wanted to smash in the face with a piece of heavy mining equipment, disembowel with a wooden cooking spoon and hope that they get penciled in for a sudden visit with the angel of death. So, in order to better enjoy the game in question, I leave everyone else out of my gaming experience so that I don't have the feeling of liquid hatred gushing from my eyeballs. I would imagine that there are other reasons people are "lone wolves" but, as with most MMOs or multiplayer games, community is a biggie.
Avast ye! Scyberdragon be te thank for the sig, arr!
I believe you just answered your own question with most people. It's not the only reason, but that's a big one. For me, it's exactly that reason - I avoid playing with other people because, whether in winning or losing, there's always that one person that I want to smash in the face with a piece of heavy mining equipment, disembowel with a wooden cooking spoon and hope he (usually it's men that behave this way, I've noticed) gets penciled in for a sudden visit from the angel of death. I've noticed that when I play single player, in any game which multiplayer is an option, I tend not to have the feeling of gallons upon gallons of liquid hatred about to start gushing from my eyeballs. So, that's why I play games solo. I'm usually happier that way.
Avast ye! Scyberdragon be te thank for the sig, arr!
I usually like to play at my own pace. I quite often like to do full clears and not do any rushes. You usually do not get that in a multiplayer co-op. I usually wound up playing solo in large games on b-net due to other players wishing to rush through the acts or there is at least one person in the party that pisses me off.
When 1.09 came along I was almost always playing single player since I could then do the players command.
But I answerd the pool based at what i want for D3, not what i do in D2 :/
PvP in D2 was pretty bad in my opinion. I played PvP in D2 a number of times and did reasonably well, but it was never particularly enjoyable past one or two brief fights. It was the PvE that had me coming back over a decade or so and continuing to enjoy the game. I assume D3 will be the same for me.
Signature and avatar courtesy of Indestructible.
PVE enjoyment while I experience the game for the first time. Relish the story and adventure. Play through a few different characters.
Then PVE for 2 or 3 more months until I build up a bit of item wealth.
Then I hope into the PVP trading scene, and for the next 10 years I PVP to my hearts content, or until I'm forced to quit b/c the game is eating up too much of my time
Can't stand PVE after i've already experienced the game, lore, story, and beat the bosses a few times. Bores me to tears
Agreed, hence the "almost" on fighting games. Really the most interesting/spectacular fights I've had on most fighting games was one on one, typically with my brother. On Bloody Roar 1-3 we had some of the most entertaining fights. The original Smash Brothers had some good moments too. On the note of changing how the game is played in multiplayer, I remember we would divide the screen with a partition as kids while playing Street Fighter 2, that was an interesting twist with some fond memories.
As for sports games, I definitely agree that co-op is generally much more fun.
And you're right about playing with others not being about bragging rights or the trend of who's better, for me it's each individual match/game and those various "holy crap that was great" moments.
To tie it all back to Diablo, unfortunately I didn't see any of those in the D2 PvP. Instead the fights seemed dull and purely about being the best. Co-op was a lot of fun though, so even for multiplayer PvE was better.
Signature and avatar courtesy of Indestructible.
You're a different kind of player. All there is to it. That post was from MY perspective, not trying to determine other players playstyles. You're the kind of person who has to have a carrot on a stick(i.e. loot) to play a game over a long period of time.
I'm the kind of person who has to have a challenge to play a game over a long period of time before I get bored. Completely different playstyles for completely different people
Although I don't quite understand the point of playing single player past once or twice. So you can get better loot for killing.......monsters? I can see how some people may like it, but it's definately not for people with my mindset/playstyle.
Some builds can do alright with limited gear, but I won't deny it helps to have all the bells and whistles. Pretty much don't bother trying to make melee builds if your not rich, and you can at least get a few kills in here and there. A general rule of thumb is if you don't have max res in hell your just going to get raped hard in pvp.
The other thing people don't grasp that it takes a while to learn the ins and outs of, is every build has some it pwns and some it loses against, so learning how to play to maximize in various scenarios helps a ton. Its easy to just think OMG THIS GUYS PWNING ME BECUASE HIS GEARS BETTER, when it may partially be true but your overlooking your problably just being outplayed.
Anyway who like better PvP you need to do PvE before !!
ok but what is your vote ???