First off i don't know if there has already been a thread about this but i didn't see one sorry if there is.
In Diablo II LoD Ranged such as cold/fire/light Sorc, javelin amazon, and trap assassin. All could have intermediate items and still kill large groups of monsters fairly efficiently providing they werent immune of course. An example of this is the javzon holding titans, a good javelin and not that hard to obtain through trade. The trap assassin of course had it easy when it came to killing monsters. she didn't even have to alert them that she was there untill the lightening was zapping the crap out of them. wind-druid is semi ranged but would almost say he was melee considering he had to get in an opponents face to kill them but was tough as due to his pets and hurricane. But as for actual melee characters that had to actually 'whack' the other monsters such as Barb, Zeal pally, Smite pally, etc had to have Great/insane/expensive items to have effective and efficient killing execution and speed compared to other characters.
Generally all i'm saying is in Diablo II LoD takes longer for a melee character to run into combat and as he is running into combat he has to cop with ranged damage and once he is in combat he has to cop melee damage. Ranged characters didnt have to cop much melee damage because they could kill them off before the melee damage could reach them or simply run back and shoot again. but melee characters obviously can't do this. So if the risk of death is greater of a melee character(not counting the tanky they are) the reward should be larger to balance it out and also taking into account the characters toughness, although melee characters were generally tougher is still wasn't tough enough so be balanced compared to the good ranged characters. Also ranged has more seconds of attack. they can start attacking before the melee characters since they don't have to be as close.
I know this is debatable, could just refer to barb has jump, pally has charge etc, but in general i didn't think it was balanced for mid level items at all. Note i'm just going over how it was Over all in diablo II LoD imo.
Who is worried in Diablo III about ranged been favored against large groups of monsters. I'm just worried they're going to not balance range and melee. Melee should be greater amount of damage per second apposed to range in my opinion.
Love melee. It just feels more 'real' haha. Nothing better than slaughtering demons with your weapon in your hands. And watch the gore grind all around you.
Casting and ranged are still good of course, just everyone's individual preferences.
Barb and hopefully a dark magic class. WD would be fun to try though
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This is more a case of elemental vs physical damage, not ranged vs melee. A vengeance Pally is easily much more powerful with decent gear than a multishot, guided arrow or strafe Amazon.
No not really. I'm not counting bowzon since it was not a good enough pvm to count. but only the ones i listed. the problem isn't what type of damage it is. It's about what melee builds have to run deep into combat/monsters to get hits and what range builds have that is over this. You can not say that physical damage is worse because it's just way to diverse of a game when it comes to monsters. Although i do agree with you about vengeance paladin > bowzon. But that wasn't really my point.
This is why I want to be the barbarian so I can just smash into my enemys obliterate them and then have them kill me cause I got confused and started hitting the wall
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actually if you look at the two known melee classes in D3 thus far you will see they all have some sort of ranged attack or multi kill attack. The monk can hit a bunch of monsters at once and stun them then quickly attack each and kill them with more combos. The barb can yes leap attack but it also has the move where he stomps the ground stuns and damages enemies. So im not really worried if i ever make my barb.
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Yeah i think they evened it out in this one cause the wizard has some close range spells and the wd has to be pretty close to use his curses so they gave each a nice array of both melee and ranged.
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I know exactly what is the problem. You talk about skills... A skill will be effective no matter the weapon you have, contrary melee you depending of weapons. It's the only single problem I see there.
D3 melee I don't know if you check videos but I see many many AOE skills for melee characters !!
When I do Single Player in D2, my tendencies tend to be in favor of ranged characters and here are my reasons as to why:
1) Especially in Hell mode, melee characters MUST have a decent combination of armor, weaponry, skills and resistances to make themselves effective in any battle. Ranged characters need only truly worry about skills and weaponry.
2) For melee, the armor you wear must have enchantments or bonuses consistent with your fighting techniques and protection versus whatever it is you're going up against and not much room to leave for "luxury" bonuses, such as +magic find%. Ranged characters rely mainly on not ever entering melee combat in the first place and hit and run tactics, leaving enchantments and bonuses and armor to whatever you desire to have on them, basically.
3) Immunity to Physical damage is really a kick to the crotch for melee, Barbs especially. Pallies have a few more options available to them IF you've invested in the proper skills to do so. Ranged can skip over them quite easily like a minor annoyance. The same holds true to Sorcs and elemental immunities. Teleport skip.
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Agreed. But the true problem is that melee attacks have large disvantages and you need insane gear to compensante it.
1) Melee is melee: So no matter how skillfull you are you will take hits (unlike ranged were most of the enemies are compeltly avoidable, specially if you have slow effects or meat shields). So you if don't have 10.000+ DEF, capped block rate, 250+ vit and stormshield's damage reduction you can't tabk the monsters wich leads you to a annoying, slow and innefective hit and run.
2) Multishots: Monsters with multishots proprieties will K.O. you because when you're too close all the multiple bolts hits you. Unless you have a stormshield or/and 250+ vit you will need to spin around the enemy until he attacks and then counter attack it (unlike a range that don't even notice this propriety).
3) Lightning Enhance: W/o 75% Lightning Resist you must hit and run and kill stuff slowly, too slowly. And even with capped LR those mobs are very hard for melee but fairly avoidable for rangeds.
All those problems vanish if you have a perfect gear. The problem is that before that melee are very weak compered to rangeds. This will problably not be the case in D3 since i believe the gear dependance will be equal among all classes and melee characters have a bunch of skills to avoid damage and do splash damage.
I do not use shields in most melee builds. I prefer using a 2-handed weapon. The only melee class I use a shield is the Pally due to Holy Shield. Having a high chance to block but slow blocking rate will make go into block lock. Block lock will mean that it less likely for you to survive the encounter.
Melee characters are meant to take hits. That is why they have higher life and other skills to improve their tanking capability.
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Kinda like intelligence level compared to salary level of political figureheads in the US unbalanced?
As for D2, I don't see it as 'unbalanced'...I just see it as 'insanely more challenging'.
lol...
I agree with italofoca, now in d3 you have many skills AOE and fast, and with the new system of mana, you will never run out of mana (or it's will be handle differently)
I do not use shields in most melee builds. I prefer using a 2-handed weapon. The only melee class I use a shield is the Pally due to Holy Shield. Having a high chance to block but slow blocking rate will make go into block lock. Block lock will mean that it less likely for you to survive the encounter.
Melee characters are meant to take hits. That is why they have higher life and other skills to improve their tanking capability.
Despite the barb i can't see any character tanking Hell A3 or further without a godly gear or a shield. And I never ever had a problem with block lock in D2.
Yes they are meant to take hits, but they still can't survive multishots, specially ones with extra strong and/or curse. This happen because defence only helps you avoid damage (and even with 10k def monster still hits you often) and a safe range is better for avoid damage then any defence buff in the game.
I have had success with a Werebear, Spearazon, Melee Necro. Spearazon can tank quite well with the avoid, dodge, and evade skills. Yes you do need some good gear but nothing too godly is needed.
Necro has Bone Armor and the curses to help keep him alive. I just use normal attack.
Werebear has a large amount of life and cyclone armor helps with damage from the elements.
It is not easy with any of them but it is doable. I have quite a few strategies that I use. Mind that I played those characters in Hardcore in any version from the day the game was released in 2000 (classic all the way to 2003). From 2003 I have only been playing mods so the experience is different. I have had many successes in mods with all characters going only 2-handed for melee.
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Yes i think we agree that every character in the game in diablo II LoD can tank a shit load of damage with right build and set up. But i'm purely talking about damage per seconds on large groups of monsters. wearbear, spearzon, melee necro all had inferior dps really.
Spearazon could avoid about half the hits coming in with just putting in points into Avoid, Dodge and Evade. The Zon will not reach the life like a Barb or Druid but still those are great skills to help keep you alive.
Spearzon can do tremendous amounts of damage to a group with the Charged Strike and Lightning Strike.
I prefer not taking on large groups at a time. It is better to divide and conquer. I play Hardcore so I play cautiously and take my time. I never rush since that is more likely to lead to a mistake and then death.
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In Diablo II LoD Ranged such as cold/fire/light Sorc, javelin amazon, and trap assassin. All could have intermediate items and still kill large groups of monsters fairly efficiently providing they werent immune of course. An example of this is the javzon holding titans, a good javelin and not that hard to obtain through trade. The trap assassin of course had it easy when it came to killing monsters. she didn't even have to alert them that she was there untill the lightening was zapping the crap out of them. wind-druid is semi ranged but would almost say he was melee considering he had to get in an opponents face to kill them but was tough as due to his pets and hurricane. But as for actual melee characters that had to actually 'whack' the other monsters such as Barb, Zeal pally, Smite pally, etc had to have Great/insane/expensive items to have effective and efficient killing execution and speed compared to other characters.
Generally all i'm saying is in Diablo II LoD takes longer for a melee character to run into combat and as he is running into combat he has to cop with ranged damage and once he is in combat he has to cop melee damage. Ranged characters didnt have to cop much melee damage because they could kill them off before the melee damage could reach them or simply run back and shoot again. but melee characters obviously can't do this. So if the risk of death is greater of a melee character(not counting the tanky they are) the reward should be larger to balance it out and also taking into account the characters toughness, although melee characters were generally tougher is still wasn't tough enough so be balanced compared to the good ranged characters. Also ranged has more seconds of attack. they can start attacking before the melee characters since they don't have to be as close.
I know this is debatable, could just refer to barb has jump, pally has charge etc, but in general i didn't think it was balanced for mid level items at all. Note i'm just going over how it was Over all in diablo II LoD imo.
Who is worried in Diablo III about ranged been favored against large groups of monsters. I'm just worried they're going to not balance range and melee. Melee should be greater amount of damage per second apposed to range in my opinion.
Casting and ranged are still good of course, just everyone's individual preferences.
Barb and hopefully a dark magic class. WD would be fun to try though
No not really. I'm not counting bowzon since it was not a good enough pvm to count. but only the ones i listed. the problem isn't what type of damage it is. It's about what melee builds have to run deep into combat/monsters to get hits and what range builds have that is over this. You can not say that physical damage is worse because it's just way to diverse of a game when it comes to monsters. Although i do agree with you about vengeance paladin > bowzon. But that wasn't really my point.
If you want to arrange it
This world you can change it
If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask
I know exactly what is the problem. You talk about skills... A skill will be effective no matter the weapon you have, contrary melee you depending of weapons. It's the only single problem I see there.
D3 melee I don't know if you check videos but I see many many AOE skills for melee characters !!
The problem is solved !
Which I can't wait to master and dominate with...
♣Strength and Honor♣
1) Especially in Hell mode, melee characters MUST have a decent combination of armor, weaponry, skills and resistances to make themselves effective in any battle. Ranged characters need only truly worry about skills and weaponry.
2) For melee, the armor you wear must have enchantments or bonuses consistent with your fighting techniques and protection versus whatever it is you're going up against and not much room to leave for "luxury" bonuses, such as +magic find%. Ranged characters rely mainly on not ever entering melee combat in the first place and hit and run tactics, leaving enchantments and bonuses and armor to whatever you desire to have on them, basically.
3) Immunity to Physical damage is really a kick to the crotch for melee, Barbs especially. Pallies have a few more options available to them IF you've invested in the proper skills to do so. Ranged can skip over them quite easily like a minor annoyance. The same holds true to Sorcs and elemental immunities. Teleport skip.
Avast ye! Scyberdragon be te thank for the sig, arr!
Kinda like intelligence level compared to salary level of political figureheads in the US unbalanced?
As for D2, I don't see it as 'unbalanced'...I just see it as 'insanely more challenging'.
Avast ye! Scyberdragon be te thank for the sig, arr!
1) Melee is melee: So no matter how skillfull you are you will take hits (unlike ranged were most of the enemies are compeltly avoidable, specially if you have slow effects or meat shields). So you if don't have 10.000+ DEF, capped block rate, 250+ vit and stormshield's damage reduction you can't tabk the monsters wich leads you to a annoying, slow and innefective hit and run.
2) Multishots: Monsters with multishots proprieties will K.O. you because when you're too close all the multiple bolts hits you. Unless you have a stormshield or/and 250+ vit you will need to spin around the enemy until he attacks and then counter attack it (unlike a range that don't even notice this propriety).
3) Lightning Enhance: W/o 75% Lightning Resist you must hit and run and kill stuff slowly, too slowly. And even with capped LR those mobs are very hard for melee but fairly avoidable for rangeds.
All those problems vanish if you have a perfect gear. The problem is that before that melee are very weak compered to rangeds. This will problably not be the case in D3 since i believe the gear dependance will be equal among all classes and melee characters have a bunch of skills to avoid damage and do splash damage.
Melee characters are meant to take hits. That is why they have higher life and other skills to improve their tanking capability.
lol...
I agree with italofoca, now in d3 you have many skills AOE and fast, and with the new system of mana, you will never run out of mana (or it's will be handle differently)
Despite the barb i can't see any character tanking Hell A3 or further without a godly gear or a shield. And I never ever had a problem with block lock in D2.
Yes they are meant to take hits, but they still can't survive multishots, specially ones with extra strong and/or curse. This happen because defence only helps you avoid damage (and even with 10k def monster still hits you often) and a safe range is better for avoid damage then any defence buff in the game.
Necro has Bone Armor and the curses to help keep him alive. I just use normal attack.
Werebear has a large amount of life and cyclone armor helps with damage from the elements.
It is not easy with any of them but it is doable. I have quite a few strategies that I use. Mind that I played those characters in Hardcore in any version from the day the game was released in 2000 (classic all the way to 2003). From 2003 I have only been playing mods so the experience is different. I have had many successes in mods with all characters going only 2-handed for melee.
Spearzon can do tremendous amounts of damage to a group with the Charged Strike and Lightning Strike.
I prefer not taking on large groups at a time. It is better to divide and conquer. I play Hardcore so I play cautiously and take my time. I never rush since that is more likely to lead to a mistake and then death.