Do you guys think that active skills such as Bash will be based off of weapon damage or DPS?
In WoW, old school WoW, the Barman Shanker was a Rare dagger with 2.0 attack speed that in some regards was better than most Epic Daggers most of which had attack speed between 1.4 and 1.6. Although it did less DPS than some of the Epic Daggers, it did more damage per hit, thus had a higher damage modifier when used with skills. Allowing some players to acheive higher overall DPS with weapon with lower DPS.
Later because so many people complained how "imba" this was, Blizzard released a patch that made skills based on DPS instead of weapon damage, even though in the skill tree it said X% of weapon damage. The modifier was DPS.
I beleive using DPS as the modifier instead of weapon damage is a terrible idea.
Weapons types should be unique, if weapon damage is the modifier, then there will be trade offs that the player will have to decide. For example in Diablo 3, there is a skill called Berserker State for the Barbarian, http://www.diii.net/skilltrees/?class=barb, hitting enemies have a 6% chance proccing berserker state for 4 seconds which increases attack speed by 5% and movement speed by 3%.
If Blizzard used the DPS modifier system like they did in WoW for Diablo 3, this would be imbalanced for slow weapons. Fast weapons will be able tp proc this skill more often and still do the same damage as a slow weapon(given the same DPS) on a skill like Bash.
Another reason I feel that the DPS modfier system is imbalanced is the fact that there are random enchantments to weapons. An example of this would be 36-55 fire damage per hit, or 5 life leech per hit.
This certainy favors fast weapons. Imagine 2 weapons, one attacks very fast, 1 hit every .5 seconds at 10 dps, and the other only hits once per second also at 10 dps. Now lets assume both weapons have +10 fire damage per hit added from a gem. The first weapon would have a +20 dps increase from this +10 fire damage, while the second weapon would have a +10 dps increase from the fire damage
This means that with a +10 fire damage enchant to both weapons, the fast weapon would have 30 dps, where as the slow weapon would only have 20 dps. If Blizzard used the DPS modifier system, there would be no incentive for players to use a slow weapon. Because players would know that fast weapons always better than slow weapons given the same DPS.
If Blizzard decides to use DPS as a modifier for the sake of "balance", then the only way this balance can be achieved is if all weapons attack at the same speed, which would make itemization incredibly boring.
Do you think Blizzard should use Damage instead of DPS as a modifier?
If Blizzard used the DPS modifier system like they did in WoW for Diablo 3, this would be imbalanced for slow weapons. Fast weapons will be able tp proc this skill more often and still do the same damage as a slow weapon(given the same DPS) on a skill like Bash.
Or, procs are chance per second instead of chance per hit.
Quote from "mad3nch1na" »
Another reason I feel that the DPS modfier system is imbalanced is the fact that there are random enchantments to weapons. An example of this would be 36-55 fire damage per hit, or 5 life leech per hit.
Or, fire damage becomes fire dps.
This way, all weapons are equal, and it comes down to the the modifiers. More boring perhaps, but certainly not unbalanced.
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Or, procs are chance per second instead of chance per hit.
Or, fire damage becomes fire dps.
This way, all weapons are equal, and it comes down to the the modifiers. More boring perhaps, but certainly not unbalanced.
I totally agree 100% with you, but that is not what happened.
In WoW +7 damage weapon enchants only do +7 damage to min and max damage, not DPS, thus increasing DPS more for faster weapons and less for slower weapons. Also, adding strait DPS does not address the advantage fast weapons have on proccing passive skills.
I totally agree 100% with you, but that is not what happened.
What happened, and what will happen, are two entirely different things.
Quote from "mad3nch1na" »
In WoW +7 damage weapon enchants only do +7 damage to min and max damage, not DPS, thus increasing DPS more for faster weapons and less for slower weapons. Also, adding strait DPS does not address the advantage fast weapons have on proccing passive skills.
Yes they do, if procs apply as a chance per second. Which is simple enough to balance and put into effect.
One weapon speed 1, one weapons speed 2 (in WoW terms). The first weapon would perhaps have 4% chance, while the latter would have 8%.
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One weapon speed 1, one weapons speed 2 (in WoW terms). The first weapon would perhaps have 4% chance, while the latter would have 8%.
Hmm that is an interesting idea, but if implemented, why would one player want a slower weapon instead of a faster weapon? or a faster weapon instead of a slower weapon?
The example I used in the beginning of the thread, Barman Shanker, the dagger with a slow attack speed, did not work with every single build. In fact players that used that specific item made their character build around that item. All the players I knew that farmed for that item, changed their build just for that one item. This is an example of players making a good decision, because the build was tailored specifically just for that item.
Now if the player wielding the Barman Shanker made a build that was for daggers with fast attack speed, then he would do significantly less damage.
Here is a quick example
With damage as a modifier:
Fast weapon 5dps will be good under Build #1
Slow weapon 5dps will be good under Build #2
Fast weapon 5dps will be not as good under Build #2
Slow weapon 5dps will be not as good under Build #1
This is a very simple example, but it illustrates the drawbacks of fast and slow weapons, there are trade offs and benefits. Leaving the player the player to make choices. Sure some players will make bad decisions, and some players will make better decisions, but just because some players make bad choices, does not mean that the rules should be changed to accommodate them.
But with DPS as a modifier
Fast weapon 5dps will be same under Build #1
Slow weapon 5dps will be same under Build #2
Fast weapon 5dps will be same under Build #2
Slow weapon 5dps will be same under Build #1
This makes builds that would have been good for fast weapons just as good if they player used a slow weapon, vice versa. What it does is it undermines the players choice by making them the same. When all of the choices have the same effect, then you really are not having one.
I don't get why D3 even has dps. With wow their were cooldowns and autoattack. In D3 damage is based of off clicking. If I only click on the monster once I only hit him once. How do you use dps on a game where number of attacks Vs speed are not controlled. All the dps is is a simple division of weapon dmg vs the weapons speed but it is up to the player to click that many times. Dps in d3 is more of a maximum dmg output.
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Yea but considering that most monsters die in a few hits you are clicking more than auto attack. I just think that dps in a game with highly sparatic attacks is pointless. Fights don't last long. I don't need to know how much damage per second because most fights are only a second. It just seems to be a waste of time to worry about dps instead of straight damage.
In wow with a three minute fight dps can stack uo over time. With diablo and two hit kills the speed doesn't factor nearly as much.
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i think blizz will work out its imballances much moreso than in wow. this wasnt much of an issue in diablo 2 and i dont think (with all the care and time they are taking) it should make much of a difference in diablo 3. many of such issues are fixed with things like procs per min etc; but in the end we will eventually find any mistakes and possible exploits in diablo 3, and in such a game there its always bound to be imballanced in some way.
bash should be based off dps (including magic impact damage) :3 not weapon dps
as far as slow poison damage goes, it should be considered something completely different (like a debuff) and should only work on weapons as instant poison damage.
They should just ditch the dps and only worry about two stats. Weapon speed and damage. This simplifies the whole system. You don't have to worry about spells and plus attributes to damage vs dps or procs or anything else that dps complicates. If you must know you dps just divide damage by weapon speed. In a game as fast paced as diablo, dps is just unecessary and adds complications and balancing issues. Make slow weapons stronger and fast ones weaker.
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They should just ditch the dps and only worry about two stats. Weapon speed and damage. This simplifies the whole system. You don't have to worry about spells and plus attributes to damage vs dps or procs or anything else that dps complicates. If you must know you dps just divide damage by weapon speed. In a game as fast paced as diablo, dps is just unecessary and adds complications and balancing issues. Make slow weapons stronger and fast ones weaker.
I agree with that, it should be a measuring tool, not something to base skills and attacks off of.
I mean numbers. Like 700 dmg but 850dps. I think you are missing the point though. The fact that you could not quickly and easily compare your actual damage vs your dps shows how irrelevant dps is in a game like diablo. Dps is there for games where fights last a minute or two in which your dps can alter total damage due to the duration. In a fast pace game actual damage is all that is needed. Dps just complicates a lot of things for a system that is irrelevant for diablo.
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Hmm that is an interesting idea, but if implemented, why would one player want a slower weapon instead of a faster weapon? or a faster weapon instead of a slower weapon?
Like I said earlier, this system is a bit boring, and I do not think nor want to Blizzard to adopt a system like it. But it is balanced
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Ok, about 7k dmg and 18k dps with my current mauler.
The usage is pretty obvious.
You do 1.17 attacks per second and must multiply it by your 1526 damage.
Now let's say that you find a weapon that does 1.20 attacks per second, but reduces your damage to 1498.
How do you determine which weapon is better without using a calculator or something that clearly displays your DpS? You would obviously want to use the weapon with the best damage output (ignoring other stats), so how can DpS be useless?
Skills should be based on weapon damage, no doubt.
I am not saying dps is useless, just unnecessary in the quick pace of diablo. In D2 Baal's minions on hell had about 5k-7k life. So no matter what, according to your numbers, you were killing them in one hit. Other than bosses and uniques, all of the monsters were dying in one hit from your weapon, therefore, dps does not really matter.
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But if we are talking about multiple targets than click speed is and fcr is important but not dps. If I can only click once per second on my mouse than my dps goes down compared to someone who can click twice per second. Fcr is important because it maxes out how many times the player can click. The dps stat is simply a multiplication of dmg and speed. Your dps number does not actually mean how much damage your character is putting out.
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I disagree, I think a skill should effect your damage or weapon speed. This would in turn change your dps but it would not complicate balancing issues.
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In WoW, old school WoW, the Barman Shanker was a Rare dagger with 2.0 attack speed that in some regards was better than most Epic Daggers most of which had attack speed between 1.4 and 1.6. Although it did less DPS than some of the Epic Daggers, it did more damage per hit, thus had a higher damage modifier when used with skills. Allowing some players to acheive higher overall DPS with weapon with lower DPS.
Later because so many people complained how "imba" this was, Blizzard released a patch that made skills based on DPS instead of weapon damage, even though in the skill tree it said X% of weapon damage. The modifier was DPS.
I beleive using DPS as the modifier instead of weapon damage is a terrible idea.
Weapons types should be unique, if weapon damage is the modifier, then there will be trade offs that the player will have to decide. For example in Diablo 3, there is a skill called Berserker State for the Barbarian, http://www.diii.net/skilltrees/?class=barb, hitting enemies have a 6% chance proccing berserker state for 4 seconds which increases attack speed by 5% and movement speed by 3%.
If Blizzard used the DPS modifier system like they did in WoW for Diablo 3, this would be imbalanced for slow weapons. Fast weapons will be able tp proc this skill more often and still do the same damage as a slow weapon(given the same DPS) on a skill like Bash.
Another reason I feel that the DPS modfier system is imbalanced is the fact that there are random enchantments to weapons. An example of this would be 36-55 fire damage per hit, or 5 life leech per hit.
This certainy favors fast weapons. Imagine 2 weapons, one attacks very fast, 1 hit every .5 seconds at 10 dps, and the other only hits once per second also at 10 dps. Now lets assume both weapons have +10 fire damage per hit added from a gem. The first weapon would have a +20 dps increase from this +10 fire damage, while the second weapon would have a +10 dps increase from the fire damage
This means that with a +10 fire damage enchant to both weapons, the fast weapon would have 30 dps, where as the slow weapon would only have 20 dps. If Blizzard used the DPS modifier system, there would be no incentive for players to use a slow weapon. Because players would know that fast weapons always better than slow weapons given the same DPS.
If Blizzard decides to use DPS as a modifier for the sake of "balance", then the only way this balance can be achieved is if all weapons attack at the same speed, which would make itemization incredibly boring.
Do you think Blizzard should use Damage instead of DPS as a modifier?
Or, fire damage becomes fire dps.
This way, all weapons are equal, and it comes down to the the modifiers. More boring perhaps, but certainly not unbalanced.
In WoW +7 damage weapon enchants only do +7 damage to min and max damage, not DPS, thus increasing DPS more for faster weapons and less for slower weapons. Also, adding strait DPS does not address the advantage fast weapons have on proccing passive skills.
Yes they do, if procs apply as a chance per second. Which is simple enough to balance and put into effect.
One weapon speed 1, one weapons speed 2 (in WoW terms). The first weapon would perhaps have 4% chance, while the latter would have 8%.
The example I used in the beginning of the thread, Barman Shanker, the dagger with a slow attack speed, did not work with every single build. In fact players that used that specific item made their character build around that item. All the players I knew that farmed for that item, changed their build just for that one item. This is an example of players making a good decision, because the build was tailored specifically just for that item.
Now if the player wielding the Barman Shanker made a build that was for daggers with fast attack speed, then he would do significantly less damage.
Here is a quick example
With damage as a modifier:
Fast weapon 5dps will be good under Build #1
Slow weapon 5dps will be good under Build #2
Fast weapon 5dps will be not as good under Build #2
Slow weapon 5dps will be not as good under Build #1
This is a very simple example, but it illustrates the drawbacks of fast and slow weapons, there are trade offs and benefits. Leaving the player the player to make choices. Sure some players will make bad decisions, and some players will make better decisions, but just because some players make bad choices, does not mean that the rules should be changed to accommodate them.
But with DPS as a modifier
Fast weapon 5dps will be same under Build #1
Slow weapon 5dps will be same under Build #2
Fast weapon 5dps will be same under Build #2
Slow weapon 5dps will be same under Build #1
This makes builds that would have been good for fast weapons just as good if they player used a slow weapon, vice versa. What it does is it undermines the players choice by making them the same. When all of the choices have the same effect, then you really are not having one.
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In wow with a three minute fight dps can stack uo over time. With diablo and two hit kills the speed doesn't factor nearly as much.
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bash should be based off dps (including magic impact damage) :3 not weapon dps
as far as slow poison damage goes, it should be considered something completely different (like a debuff) and should only work on weapons as instant poison damage.
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Exactly. Show me my DPS, no problem, but don't make modifiers based on it.
I am not saying dps is useless, just unnecessary in the quick pace of diablo. In D2 Baal's minions on hell had about 5k-7k life. So no matter what, according to your numbers, you were killing them in one hit. Other than bosses and uniques, all of the monsters were dying in one hit from your weapon, therefore, dps does not really matter.
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