I've considered this many times over the years with respect to Diablo 2 and wondered how people felt about incorporating some sense of logic or pattern into the drops in Diablo 3?
I don't mean to blaspheme but it did make some sense in WoW when certain instance creatures were killed and would drop items which they would likely actually have on their person/creature. Like how the mage boss of the Scarlet Monastery would drop mage-like things (If I can remember correctly, I probably can't and will get flamed by someone who misses the point).
I suppose I've probably been playing too much D2 lately and the question of "Where the ---- did a --- find a ----?" has popped into my head far too many times. Mostly it is caused by a creature of a very small size carrying something huge or by a creature not using a very useful item which is in its possession.
Maybe Bethesda has brainwashed me with Fallout 3 and Oblivion into thinking that if I rend asunder a goblin and it was using a glass hand axe, I should then be able to go and loot a glass hand axe off of its corpse provided that it didn't break (I mean, it is made of glass...). As opposed to killing aforementioned goblin and finding a thunder maul which I honestly don't know where or why the goblin could have been hiding...
I myself don't think that the loot should go quite so far to the Bethesda end of the realism/logic spectrum but maybe somewhere in the middle of that and D2's place. You know, maybe monsters wearing light armor would drop light armor instead of hellforge plates.
What does everyone else think?
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I agree with you about having drops a little more logical, but if all drops were completely logical than we could never really use anything from huge monsters like the siege beast or diablo.
Hmm, dunno which way to go with this one.
I Still remember the first time I killed one of those locust swarms, and it coughed up a suit of chainmail.
Pretty fucking steroided bugs.
And I also remember killing goatmen for the first time, and then not being able to take their scythes/halberds/whatever.
Didn't really make sense to me.
But, as a counterpoint, this system of drops is what has kept D2 un-grindy (to an extent).
By this, I mean that nearly any monster could drop an (insert item here), even if you were just going through acts and not grinding bosses.
So yeah, I'm pretty much on the fence with this one. A logical drop system would make sense, but at the same time, it would kill a bit of that diablo-randomness that the series is best known for.
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I agree with you about having drops a little more logical, but if all drops were completely logical than we could never really use anything from huge monsters like the siege beast or diablo.
Thought about that myself. I imagine that the siege beast could probably have a few hominids in it's belly... so it could probably drop anything.
I'm with you on that one as well Zhar (I'm not good at double quoting in one post). The grindy aspect is really nice to avoid in Diablo, but if there are small items that are valuable/useful/runes, pretty much any monster could have a really tiny chance to drop a really useful item (as long as the monster isn't a cloud of insects).
I feel that the probabilities could make more sense. Like if you kill a cultist mage, nine times out of ten it would drop wizardy clothes or some wand or staff but there's still a chance that the creature could have been borrowing it's buddy's sword or armor for the day to practice with them in an attempt to diversify it's abilities to harm the player character. Then you kill mages and see them mostly drop mage stuff but still know that your barbarian might find something that it actually wants to wear even though it is killing squishy casters.
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All science is either physics or stamp collecting.
- Ernest Rutherford
Yeah, I like that idea of having a small chance to drop things not normally associated with a monster type.
And yes, I also agree that everything should have a chance to drop small, valuable things.
Pretty much any animal/demon/whatever could have swallowed a rune or a gem, or even a rune or a gem being carried by a person.
Probabilities would definitely be one of the best in-betweens for realism, and overall fun.
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Quote from "Sixen" »
"One in every 10 million people can potentially have a headache from this pill." God forbid she is the 0.000000001% of having a headache.
As much as I love drops that make sense in games like Fallout 3, Diablo is much more of a fast paced hack and slash and centers largely around random loot. I just don't think Diablo would feel like Diablo if drops were based more heavily on what you killed.
So yeah, I'm pretty much on the fence with this one. A logical drop system would make sense, but at the same time, it would kill a bit of that diablo-randomness that the series is best known for.
My thoughts exactly.
I never really understood how those bees in act 3 could carry a plate mail armor
I don't like the idea of logical drops. Fantasy > real life in video games. Of course a swarm of locusts are not holding onto some chain mail. I think of the drops more as rewards for killing it more than this is what i got off of it. If this were true only humanoid type monsters would have anything actually useful.
the other problem with this idea is balancing. You are going to get 100 rooms created say "Wizard Gear Grind" as so forth which deminishes co-op play. Of course if you are a wizard then you will just go to the highest lvl are with casters and grind away for your gear and the same for each type. But what if the highest level areas dont have any. They would have to make sure to put an even amount of each type in each area so every class has an opportunity to get better gear.
Please leave drops randomized.
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I can see the problems from both sides of the line.
One SIDE, you are going to have people grinding areas for certain items more so than already happens. Leading to long grind times cause different people will need to grind different areas, if your playing co-op.
On the others hand, it would be more logical.
Im leaning toward the random-ish drops, to avoid having to grind a certain mob, or boss, etc more than will already need to be done.
Well I didn't understand how my amazon could carry 4+ sets of platemail in her inventory. For agility's sake, it just doesn't make sense there. There also was no actual animation that showed a massively stuffed up bag on her back, so really, if you were to kill my amazon (hah! yea right :P) like she were a beast, then again you wouldn't understand why she were to drop platemail and swords etc.
I think of it as the creatures dropping whats in their invisible inventory bags. So they could be carrying anything that is far from logical for the monster in question. Except, the swarms just never made sense to me either
anyone play titan quest? This is actually how they handle drops. I personally don't mind aether way. I like slaying a hole army and picking through lots of random crap to see if I got anyhting good reguardless of what may have dropped it. But a cool feature I will point out that titan quest used was that not only did the type of item that the enemy was using drop for looting (mostly common types) but if the enemy had a rare or unique peace on, this actually was used by the monster. It was fun running through hoards of creatures and seeing one with a shinny flashy "different" looking item and thinking "pay day!" this also applied to amulets rings armors and anyhting else (though you can't see the jewelry) and you don't even really notice that the items are being dropped "logically" unless you pay attention, the variety of monster classes blended together well.
And when it came to boss fights usually there was a chest or stash some where that was sealed until the current boss was defeated, logically letting any very high item drop. witch might not fit the diablo feeling, but dose make a little more sense
like I said I don't think I mind ether way.... but giant suits of battle armor dropping off of a swarm of insects just incorporates the feel of diablo to me
Yeah, I've always thought it sucked when animals dropped stuff that only humanoids would use, gold etc. As if bear or vulchure would being carrying it... its retarded.
I'm all for enemies dropping versions of the stuff they're actually wearing. i.e. Enemies wearing light armour should drop all kinds of light armour... and enemies carrying swords should only drop similar kinds of swords.
if this equates to a lack of variation in drops - simple fix; increase enemy variations!!
The only problem with D2 is that there is no reason to keep killing random monsters. You just go and kill whatever drops more.
This? Or more logical drops?
Quite frankly, I can't choose. I think they should keep it relatively random, but leave some things to some more specific kind of monsters or boss. I see nothing wrong with mixing the 2.
Drops have destroyed the main concept of Diablo II. After the first two years...people mostly played for MF'ing. Keeping it more realistic would boast the surrealism of the game and the difficulty of it. Like for instance killing a fallen and the only drops would be a Fallen's scimitar or a necklace of the slain corpse.
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One of the arguments surrounding the question is that logical drops MIGHT support the idea of farming only a certain type of monster. In a way, it is no different from farming Mephisto, as for example, wizards would want to farm magic using enemies. As a result, games rooms would consist of all wizards focusing on killing certain enemies.
Now I'm not saying its a bad thing, but it should be something to be discussed. How many people want to farm a specific enemy, and how many want to have importance for even those maggots that can't logically carry anything?
But, after reading some posts, I get the feeling that people don't want the game to be based around farming certain monsters for the best equipment. Thus although logical drops do make the game more realistic, unfortunately, it might also affect the game play.
A little off topic, but I feel is relevant...I do recall Blizzard emphasizing the fact that they do not want players to go out of their way to get items. For example, they don't want people to use a different set of armor (MF armor) to farm. I MIGHT be drawing illogical conclusions, but I ASSUME, that they have the same concept that they don't want people to go out of way to farm certain monsters. Hard to explain, but, what I mean is that they want people to play the game "naturally". It isn't natural to use inferior armor (though better at MF) to fight monsters. And it probably isn't natural to fight a certain monster over and over again, like you were planning to kill every last single one of them that exists in the world. Talk about genocide or discrimination...all wand using dudes MUST DIE.
I allways loved diablo's completly random loot tables. It allowed me to advance in the game knowing that i can still drop what i want. In other games (Final Fantasy for exemple) i pass like 2 hours in some map just to drop what i want, and sometimes it gets very boring and stressing.
In other worlds, without worring with a specific place to drop certain items people will just naturally advance in the game. Thats how diablo should work imo.
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Faded out her voice and soiled her name
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The incoherent talk of ordinary days
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I don't mean to blaspheme but it did make some sense in WoW when certain instance creatures were killed and would drop items which they would likely actually have on their person/creature. Like how the mage boss of the Scarlet Monastery would drop mage-like things (If I can remember correctly, I probably can't and will get flamed by someone who misses the point).
I suppose I've probably been playing too much D2 lately and the question of "Where the ---- did a --- find a ----?" has popped into my head far too many times. Mostly it is caused by a creature of a very small size carrying something huge or by a creature not using a very useful item which is in its possession.
Maybe Bethesda has brainwashed me with Fallout 3 and Oblivion into thinking that if I rend asunder a goblin and it was using a glass hand axe, I should then be able to go and loot a glass hand axe off of its corpse provided that it didn't break (I mean, it is made of glass...). As opposed to killing aforementioned goblin and finding a thunder maul which I honestly don't know where or why the goblin could have been hiding...
I myself don't think that the loot should go quite so far to the Bethesda end of the realism/logic spectrum but maybe somewhere in the middle of that and D2's place. You know, maybe monsters wearing light armor would drop light armor instead of hellforge plates.
What does everyone else think?
- Ernest Rutherford
I Still remember the first time I killed one of those locust swarms, and it coughed up a suit of chainmail.
Pretty fucking steroided bugs.
And I also remember killing goatmen for the first time, and then not being able to take their scythes/halberds/whatever.
Didn't really make sense to me.
But, as a counterpoint, this system of drops is what has kept D2 un-grindy (to an extent).
By this, I mean that nearly any monster could drop an (insert item here), even if you were just going through acts and not grinding bosses.
So yeah, I'm pretty much on the fence with this one. A logical drop system would make sense, but at the same time, it would kill a bit of that diablo-randomness that the series is best known for.
Thought about that myself. I imagine that the siege beast could probably have a few hominids in it's belly... so it could probably drop anything.
I'm with you on that one as well Zhar (I'm not good at double quoting in one post). The grindy aspect is really nice to avoid in Diablo, but if there are small items that are valuable/useful/runes, pretty much any monster could have a really tiny chance to drop a really useful item (as long as the monster isn't a cloud of insects).
I feel that the probabilities could make more sense. Like if you kill a cultist mage, nine times out of ten it would drop wizardy clothes or some wand or staff but there's still a chance that the creature could have been borrowing it's buddy's sword or armor for the day to practice with them in an attempt to diversify it's abilities to harm the player character. Then you kill mages and see them mostly drop mage stuff but still know that your barbarian might find something that it actually wants to wear even though it is killing squishy casters.
- Ernest Rutherford
And yes, I also agree that everything should have a chance to drop small, valuable things.
Pretty much any animal/demon/whatever could have swallowed a rune or a gem, or even a rune or a gem being carried by a person.
Probabilities would definitely be one of the best in-betweens for realism, and overall fun.
Signature and avatar courtesy of Indestructible.
My thoughts exactly.
I never really understood how those bees in act 3 could carry a plate mail armor
the other problem with this idea is balancing. You are going to get 100 rooms created say "Wizard Gear Grind" as so forth which deminishes co-op play. Of course if you are a wizard then you will just go to the highest lvl are with casters and grind away for your gear and the same for each type. But what if the highest level areas dont have any. They would have to make sure to put an even amount of each type in each area so every class has an opportunity to get better gear.
Please leave drops randomized.
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team
One SIDE, you are going to have people grinding areas for certain items more so than already happens. Leading to long grind times cause different people will need to grind different areas, if your playing co-op.
On the others hand, it would be more logical.
Im leaning toward the random-ish drops, to avoid having to grind a certain mob, or boss, etc more than will already need to be done.
I think of it as the creatures dropping whats in their invisible inventory bags. So they could be carrying anything that is far from logical for the monster in question. Except, the swarms just never made sense to me either
Thats how I always imagined they got there anyways.
Still, it doesn't explain how the swarm could have possibly held onto items. Do those little critters hold it up as a team or something?
And when it came to boss fights usually there was a chest or stash some where that was sealed until the current boss was defeated, logically letting any very high item drop. witch might not fit the diablo feeling, but dose make a little more sense
like I said I don't think I mind ether way.... but giant suits of battle armor dropping off of a swarm of insects just incorporates the feel of diablo to me
I'm all for enemies dropping versions of the stuff they're actually wearing. i.e. Enemies wearing light armour should drop all kinds of light armour... and enemies carrying swords should only drop similar kinds of swords.
if this equates to a lack of variation in drops - simple fix; increase enemy variations!!
This? Or more logical drops?
Quite frankly, I can't choose. I think they should keep it relatively random, but leave some things to some more specific kind of monsters or boss. I see nothing wrong with mixing the 2.
Now I'm not saying its a bad thing, but it should be something to be discussed. How many people want to farm a specific enemy, and how many want to have importance for even those maggots that can't logically carry anything?
But, after reading some posts, I get the feeling that people don't want the game to be based around farming certain monsters for the best equipment. Thus although logical drops do make the game more realistic, unfortunately, it might also affect the game play.
A little off topic, but I feel is relevant...I do recall Blizzard emphasizing the fact that they do not want players to go out of their way to get items. For example, they don't want people to use a different set of armor (MF armor) to farm. I MIGHT be drawing illogical conclusions, but I ASSUME, that they have the same concept that they don't want people to go out of way to farm certain monsters. Hard to explain, but, what I mean is that they want people to play the game "naturally". It isn't natural to use inferior armor (though better at MF) to fight monsters. And it probably isn't natural to fight a certain monster over and over again, like you were planning to kill every last single one of them that exists in the world. Talk about genocide or discrimination...all wand using dudes MUST DIE.
In other worlds, without worring with a specific place to drop certain items people will just naturally advance in the game. Thats how diablo should work imo.