Hello people. My english is not the best so will try to explain it in the best way i can ...
In my opnion a class in diablo is not only defined by how it kill monters and other players, it is also very important how it will avoid been killed. Ranged classes do this by maintain distance from melee attackers and evade the ranged arrows and magical bolts. Melee class do it by having a better damage mitigation and survability (more armor, more hp, better block rate, more spell resistances). The problem is that theres a imbalance in terms of gameplay:
Ranged class survives by reflex, skill of the player.
Melee relly on a stats or item mods, wich is something automatic, beyond the skill (i'm not counting choose items as a skill because it is equally important to both melee and ranged classes).
This makes melee character a bit more boring and less diversified.
When I play melee classes in point and click game i always feel theres something missing.. The boss fights become just spam attacks and use potions, but with ranged i gotta play attention on what the boss will use and evoid it. This is not valid to the barbarian in D2 becuse he got whirlwind, wich is a very fun skill.
To make the gameplay of melee character a bit more interesting they could add a "Active Block". It would be a general comand just like attack. It works just like block in Street Fighther or in God of War - when you use it it higly decrease the damage taken but you can't attack while blocking. Not that some boss like the siege breaker would ignore your block command because his attack are very slow so you can manually evade it.
It could also add a wide range of new mechanic for items, skills and teamwork. For exemple, when you use "Block" your character acts like a scenarium obstacle, so spells like nova will only damage you but protect everyone behind you, like a column.
To balance matter ranged classes block would be terrible to a point they would just ignore it.
Well in some RPG games melee classes have abilities that soak up damage or shield from damage in some way. All melee classes in WoW have such abilities.
Perhaps the Barbarian will have such abilities. Don't see why he wouldn't. It makes the game more interesting and tactical, as you said.
I always thought that features like this in an RPG were somewhat pointless. In Diablo 2, the Barbarian has a passive skill entitled Iron Skin, that boosts the defense of the player more with each point invested in it.
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It's the decisions you make when you have no time to make them that define who you are.
I feel that if they implemented a block like this, combat would become very much like a melee class in Oblivion. Constantly holding black, then counter attacking. That became very monotonous and boring. It will probably deteriorate from the frenzied flow of Diablo combat, and force you to black/defend to remain viable. Also, if a melee class can tank everything for a ranged class, that becomes really hard to balance. They are either very weak by their own or completely imbalanced with melee classes.
Perhaps something reactive that you can use after being attacked would work. Like a counter-attack manouver. Still, as Dimebog pointed out, there will most likely be damage abosrbing cooldowns instead.
Well in some RPG games melee classes have abilities that soak up damage or shield from damage in some way. All melee classes in WoW have such abilities.
Perhaps the Barbarian will have such abilities. Don't see why he wouldn't. It makes the game more interesting and tactical, as you said.
Execly. I just put my suggestion as general command because it would also been a option for a melee wizard/witch doctor. We don't know if they're going to be viable, but its a option anyway. But if the add a skill for every potentially melee class then it's ok hehe.
Quote from "tkrow21" »
I always thought that features like this in an RPG were somewhat pointless. In Diablo 2, the Barbarian has a passive skill entitled Iron Skin, that boosts the defense of the player more with each point invested in it.
Err... that execly the problem I posted. You are giving to a statistic/item mod (automatic) something that could be do manually (not automatic) and obviously manually stuff is much more fun, specially when the class lack complexity in gameplay like a Zealer or a Frenzy Barb (no ww build).
Back in 90's the "weapon class" in many rpgs are very automatic by follwing your philosophy. Instead of a bash attack that deal more damage they give passives that added damage. Instead of make critical easier when attack enemy from behind they gave a critical boost to the class. Just see the difference in gameplay in Never Winter Nights.. the weapon classes have 1/10 active comands of a spell/skill class.
Quote from "zurayth" »
I feel that if they implemented a block like this, combat would become very much like a melee class in Oblivion. Constantly holding black, then counter attacking. That became very monotonous and boring. It will probably deteriorate from the frenzied flow of Diablo combat, and force you to black/defend to remain viable. Also, if a melee class can tank everything for a ranged class, that becomes really hard to balance. They are either very weak by their own or completely imbalanced with melee classes.
Perhaps something reactive that you can use after being attacked would work. Like a counter-attack manouver. Still, as Dimebog pointed out, there will most likely be damage abosrbing cooldowns instead.
The problem with oblivion is the oposite. You have the "Active Block" but most of your offensive part is passive, what makes it also boring.
Your theory fail because theres alot of games that have active block and the gameplay are excelent and not based at countering. I've give GoW as exemple, dimibog said wow (wich does not have active block but have skill that do basically the same thing)... Kingdom Hearts 2 is a action RPG, have active block and the gameplay is nice. Age of Conan is a mmorpg, have active block and the gameplay are great. Theres so much exemples.
In Diablo, monsters generally go down fast. While a Barbarian must get close to attack, what does that really mean? He's got some mobility moves, can leap great distances, and can attack quick and everything.
The barbarian can use the crowd going all over him to damage all of them. He can choose when to get out and attack smaller enemies first. Getting surrounded is not always a good thing, unless you can just take the hit a bit and then smash them all in one hit, right?
My point: As far as I'm concerned, melee class can have a lot of abilities that requires some level of thinking, and not just bash their skull one by one. While the abilities are different, and strategies might involve getting hit, that doesn't mean it requires less from the player.
In Diablo, monsters generally go down fast. While a Barbarian must get close to attack, what does that really mean? He's got some mobility moves, can leap great distances, and can attack quick and everything.
The barbarian can use the crowd going all over him to damage all of them. He can choose when to get out and attack smaller enemies first. Getting surrounded is not always a good thing, unless you can just take the hit a bit and then smash them all in one hit, right?
My point: As far as I'm concerned, melee class can have a lot of abilities that requires some level of thinking, and not just bash their skull one by one. While the abilities are different, and strategies might involve getting hit, that doesn't mean it requires less from the player.
The problem is that i'm not talking about lesser monster that are 1 hit killed by aoes. I"m talking about boss and special monsters fights. For exemple, the sige breaker are a normal monster and i doubt he will be killed with one hit. My point is that D3 seens to have alot more "long fights" then D2.
And in those long fights the melee character become somehow inferior to ranged class in terms of gameplay. Thats why I would be very happy if the barbarian and all other classes had a active-block-like skill.
I think that while it wouldn't necessarily be a good idea as a universal rule, I think it has merit as a possibility for certain offensive or defensive spells. Mario RPG used this idea to great effect.
Or maybe not even additional damage, but maybe a manual detonation, like choosing when Frozen Orb explodes or something. I'm not saying that this example is a good idea, but I like the idea of using active button presses to augment damage or cause different effects.
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this would make PvP (for melee at least) extremely boring, block then counter, block then counter, block then counter, block then.... plus it would also slow down the paste of the game. Why would the barb block if he can just leap of the way of the attack.
I don't think it should be like a mode we activate then sit in. I'd like it to happen for like 1/2 a second then go away.
Thats right. I was thinking in 1 second.
Quote from "RoBHnK" »
this would make PvP (for melee at least) extremely boring, block then counter, block then counter, block then counter, block then.... plus it would also slow down the paste of the game. Why would the barb block if he can just leap of the way of the attack.
1) Block would not reduce the damage taken to 0. Then the player that only want to block would still loose hp while not doing any damage. I also have already siad some attacks would be impossible to block, like stunning attackk or very heave ones.
2) Leap consume your fury, you can't leap all the time. Also leap are to slow and don't protect the barbarian from other attackers and nothing the enemy can just turn around and hit you after leap. It would only happen if the enemy have a very slow attack - and as i already said, those kind of attacks cannot be blocked.
Maybe the block is not need if the barbarian have other heavy defensive skills that can be used all the time, so he can defend himself in Active Way, not only by raising statistics.
I don't think playing a melee character is boring if you don't have block. You still have to evade powerful attacks like the dudes in the beginning of the gameplay video. The barb avoided those hits by using his power jump skill. And obviously, you need to avoid the siege breaker attacks.
...2) Leap consume your fury, you can't leap all the time. Also leap are to slow and don't protect the barbarian from other attackers and nothing the enemy can just turn around and hit you after leap. Maybe the block is not need if the barbarian have other heavy defensive skills that can be used all the time, so he can defend himself in Active Way, not only by raising statistics.
Fury wont be a problem since getting hit recovers your fury bar, plus heavy attacks should be able to be avoided by leap, since you said block would only matter if is done against a boss, the only way a barb would get hit during a fight like this is if the boss has minions, or it can use range attack, for melee purposes leap will suffice.
Exactly, I just cant see a barbarian doing that shielding thing with the abilities for protection it already has, maybe if they introduce a paly (knight?) like class it could do that, but the barbarian, no I don't thinks so.
Fury wont be a problem since getting hit recovers your fury bar, plus heavy attacks should be able to be avoided by leap, since you said block would only matter if is done against a boss, the only way a barb would get hit during a fight like this is if the boss has minions, or it can use range attack, for melee purposes leap will suffice.
Exactly, I just cant see a barbarian doing that shielding thing with the abilities for protection it already has, maybe if they introduce a paly (knight?) like class it could do that, but the barbarian, no I don't thinks so.
Just because Bash said fury won't be a problem it doesn't mean the barbarian will spam his skills like crazy.
And I did not said block will only matter against bosses. I said it would matter against some bigger fights, like the siege breaker. And those big monsters have really those avoidable heavy attacks, but they also have the normal D2 attacks wich the only way to avoid is maintain the distance.
But you may be right - if D3 fights work very different from D2 and other games on the genre. In D2 you just can't use leap to avoid melee attacks, I assuming D3 will remain like this.
I know this is thread necromancy, but when I was looking at the Monk's skills, this thread popped into my mind. I just wanted to mention that Impenetrable Defense is pretty much an active blocking skill. Seems like if you hold the button, you block any ranged attacks. And it's really cool too, it's like a thing you can do in many action style games like Ninja Blade and stuff like that, and I think it totally fits well in Diablo. This skill alone might make me want to play the Monk.
Its like a jedi using his lightsabre to deflect laser shots
It's all about play style, the barb uses brute force, ranged classes uses more tactical gameplay. In my opinion that doesn't make the game unbalanced it makes it more diverse... specially for multiplayer
I know this is thread necromancy, but when I was looking at the Monk's skills, this thread popped into my mind. I just wanted to mention that Impenetrable Defense is pretty much an active blocking skill. Seems like if you hold the button, you block any ranged attacks. And it's really cool too, it's like a thing you can do in many action style games like Ninja Blade and stuff like that, and I think it totally fits well in Diablo. This skill alone might make me want to play the Monk.
Totally agree with you.
Imo the Barbarian have a huge gameplay disvantage over the other classes because of that. Imo a Diablo character is defined by 2 aspects:
1. How the class will kill.
2. How the class survives.
The second aspect in the Barbarian remains totally passive (stack alot of HP and DEF, duh...). And i don't like "passiveness" in a action game.
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Faded out her voice and soiled her name
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The incoherent talk of ordinary days
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In my opnion a class in diablo is not only defined by how it kill monters and other players, it is also very important how it will avoid been killed. Ranged classes do this by maintain distance from melee attackers and evade the ranged arrows and magical bolts. Melee class do it by having a better damage mitigation and survability (more armor, more hp, better block rate, more spell resistances). The problem is that theres a imbalance in terms of gameplay:
Ranged class survives by reflex, skill of the player.
Melee relly on a stats or item mods, wich is something automatic, beyond the skill (i'm not counting choose items as a skill because it is equally important to both melee and ranged classes).
This makes melee character a bit more boring and less diversified.
When I play melee classes in point and click game i always feel theres something missing.. The boss fights become just spam attacks and use potions, but with ranged i gotta play attention on what the boss will use and evoid it. This is not valid to the barbarian in D2 becuse he got whirlwind, wich is a very fun skill.
To make the gameplay of melee character a bit more interesting they could add a "Active Block". It would be a general comand just like attack. It works just like block in Street Fighther or in God of War - when you use it it higly decrease the damage taken but you can't attack while blocking. Not that some boss like the siege breaker would ignore your block command because his attack are very slow so you can manually evade it.
It could also add a wide range of new mechanic for items, skills and teamwork. For exemple, when you use "Block" your character acts like a scenarium obstacle, so spells like nova will only damage you but protect everyone behind you, like a column.
To balance matter ranged classes block would be terrible to a point they would just ignore it.
Thnx for the attetion
Perhaps the Barbarian will have such abilities. Don't see why he wouldn't. It makes the game more interesting and tactical, as you said.
It's the decisions you make when you have no time to make them that define who you are.
Perhaps something reactive that you can use after being attacked would work. Like a counter-attack manouver. Still, as Dimebog pointed out, there will most likely be damage abosrbing cooldowns instead.
Execly. I just put my suggestion as general command because it would also been a option for a melee wizard/witch doctor. We don't know if they're going to be viable, but its a option anyway. But if the add a skill for every potentially melee class then it's ok hehe.
Err... that execly the problem I posted. You are giving to a statistic/item mod (automatic) something that could be do manually (not automatic) and obviously manually stuff is much more fun, specially when the class lack complexity in gameplay like a Zealer or a Frenzy Barb (no ww build).
Back in 90's the "weapon class" in many rpgs are very automatic by follwing your philosophy. Instead of a bash attack that deal more damage they give passives that added damage. Instead of make critical easier when attack enemy from behind they gave a critical boost to the class. Just see the difference in gameplay in Never Winter Nights.. the weapon classes have 1/10 active comands of a spell/skill class.
The problem with oblivion is the oposite. You have the "Active Block" but most of your offensive part is passive, what makes it also boring.
Your theory fail because theres alot of games that have active block and the gameplay are excelent and not based at countering. I've give GoW as exemple, dimibog said wow (wich does not have active block but have skill that do basically the same thing)... Kingdom Hearts 2 is a action RPG, have active block and the gameplay is nice. Age of Conan is a mmorpg, have active block and the gameplay are great. Theres so much exemples.
The barbarian can use the crowd going all over him to damage all of them. He can choose when to get out and attack smaller enemies first. Getting surrounded is not always a good thing, unless you can just take the hit a bit and then smash them all in one hit, right?
My point: As far as I'm concerned, melee class can have a lot of abilities that requires some level of thinking, and not just bash their skull one by one. While the abilities are different, and strategies might involve getting hit, that doesn't mean it requires less from the player.
The problem is that i'm not talking about lesser monster that are 1 hit killed by aoes. I"m talking about boss and special monsters fights. For exemple, the sige breaker are a normal monster and i doubt he will be killed with one hit. My point is that D3 seens to have alot more "long fights" then D2.
And in those long fights the melee character become somehow inferior to ranged class in terms of gameplay. Thats why I would be very happy if the barbarian and all other classes had a active-block-like skill.
Or maybe not even additional damage, but maybe a manual detonation, like choosing when Frozen Orb explodes or something. I'm not saying that this example is a good idea, but I like the idea of using active button presses to augment damage or cause different effects.
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Thats right. I was thinking in 1 second.
1) Block would not reduce the damage taken to 0. Then the player that only want to block would still loose hp while not doing any damage. I also have already siad some attacks would be impossible to block, like stunning attackk or very heave ones.
2) Leap consume your fury, you can't leap all the time. Also leap are to slow and don't protect the barbarian from other attackers and nothing the enemy can just turn around and hit you after leap. It would only happen if the enemy have a very slow attack - and as i already said, those kind of attacks cannot be blocked.
Maybe the block is not need if the barbarian have other heavy defensive skills that can be used all the time, so he can defend himself in Active Way, not only by raising statistics.
Fury wont be a problem since getting hit recovers your fury bar, plus heavy attacks should be able to be avoided by leap, since you said block would only matter if is done against a boss, the only way a barb would get hit during a fight like this is if the boss has minions, or it can use range attack, for melee purposes leap will suffice.
Exactly, I just cant see a barbarian doing that shielding thing with the abilities for protection it already has, maybe if they introduce a paly (knight?) like class it could do that, but the barbarian, no I don't thinks so.
Just because Bash said fury won't be a problem it doesn't mean the barbarian will spam his skills like crazy.
And I did not said block will only matter against bosses. I said it would matter against some bigger fights, like the siege breaker. And those big monsters have really those avoidable heavy attacks, but they also have the normal D2 attacks wich the only way to avoid is maintain the distance.
But you may be right - if D3 fights work very different from D2 and other games on the genre. In D2 you just can't use leap to avoid melee attacks, I assuming D3 will remain like this.
Its like a jedi using his lightsabre to deflect laser shots
Yea its pretty cool.
Totally agree with you.
Imo the Barbarian have a huge gameplay disvantage over the other classes because of that. Imo a Diablo character is defined by 2 aspects:
1. How the class will kill.
2. How the class survives.
The second aspect in the Barbarian remains totally passive (stack alot of HP and DEF, duh...). And i don't like "passiveness" in a action game.