Last news I've read is that camera will only be fixed isometric camera similar in previous Diablo games. I hope they add an option to let us players zoom in/out, move the camera freely, etc... Even if the isometric camera is the best option for D3, I still hope they'll give us an option. I'll still buy and play D3 if the camera is fixed, but, at the end of the day I know I'll find myself trying to move the camera or zoom in/out my character. Waddya think?
You can zoom in and out on your character judging by the gameplay trailer.
You can't rotate the camera or move it around because assets are built to be seen from one angle. They only build the visible side of things.
If that's true then that sucks. Sacred 2, Divinity 2: Ego Draconis, Neverwinter Ngihts, Fallout 3, Mass Effect 2 are just few good RPGs that let you move the camera freely. They are all successful in their own and I don't understand why Blizzard's stick to their old formula. Was it because to retain the Diablo feeling or preventing their game to look similar from WoW? Whatever the reasons it just makes D3 one step behind from modern games in terms of technology.
EDIT: Just to add, Sacred 2, Fallout 3 and Neverwinter Nights to name a few are just few RPGs that migrated from fixed camera angle to full 3D and still get a very high scores (except from Sacred 2 which is still solid game in its own).
Do you understand that Sacred 2, Fallout 3 and NWN are not isometric games?
It would be like saying how D3 should not be isometric because Quake 3 isn't. Fallout 3 was migrated from a 2D environment into a 3D one because there was no arcade factor to the gameplay style. Diablo is an arcade game. No one wants to see it migrated to anything else but another isometric hack and slash.
I think you are also forgetting that Fallout 3 doesn't have randomly-generated dungeons, are you? There's a matter of randomly piecing together detailed assets, and the fact that they can be viewed from one angle only is the only reason why Blizzard will succeed implementing random worlds in a 3D game, which will be the first time ever that anyone does something like that.
I guess there sticking to the fixed iso view simply because it works....and is what diablo fans like and are used to....and well if it aint broke dont fix it lol
Quote from "ChyrosNX" »
If that's true then that sucks. Sacred 2, Divinity 2: Ego Draconis, Neverwinter Ngihts, Fallout 3, Mass Effect 2 are just few good RPGs that let you move the camera freely. They are all successful in their own and I don't understand why Blizzard's stick to their old formula. Was it because to retain the Diablo feeling or preventing their game to look similar from WoW? Whatever the reasons it just makes D3 one step behind from modern games in terms of technology.
EDIT: Just to add, Sacred 2, Fallout 3 and Neverwinter Nights to name a few are just few RPGs that migrated from fixed camera angle to full 3D and still get a very high scores (except from Sacred 2 which is still solid game in its own).
How does it make it a step back in terms of technology? Its probably done for gameplay reasons anyways. It will make the game feel like diablo and play like the last 2. How exactly does it keep it from being technologically inferior??? I mean its just a view point for the player nothing more
Since the first question has been answered, how about planned/preset camera movements being integrated into the gameplay?
Example: You finish a dungeon and the camera focuses on the final boss as he dies and changes the angle during the death animation. There wasn't any of this in the demo, but it'seems conceivable and might make a good transition to the cutscenes.
If that's true then that sucks. Sacred 2, Divinity 2: Ego Draconis, Neverwinter Ngihts, Fallout 3, Mass Effect 2 are just few good RPGs that let you move the camera freely. They are all successful in their own and I don't understand why Blizzard's stick to their old formula. Was it because to retain the Diablo feeling or preventing their game to look similar from WoW? Whatever the reasons it just makes D3 one step behind from modern games in terms of technology.
EDIT: Just to add, Sacred 2, Fallout 3 and Neverwinter Nights to name a few are just few RPGs that migrated from fixed camera angle to full 3D and still get a very high scores (except from Sacred 2 which is still solid game in its own).
Did someone forget to tell me that Mass Effect 2 has been released!? Also, even if Blizzard chose to allow free camera movement before they certainly won't even think about it after the whole art fiasco.
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Don't try to be a great man, just be a man... and let history make its own judgment. -Zefram Cochrane, Star Trek
I'm surprised you approve of D3 retaining the classic and genre-defining isometric view. I'm not convinced you'd disapprove if blizzard decided to change the view for no reason though.
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zsfh-maz of UsWest, 95 BvB king
"Because "half-assed" is not a "style"." - DragoonWraith, champion of character customization and legimitate art direction in D3
I'm surprised you approve of D3 retaining the classic and genre-defining isometric view. I'm not convinced you'd disapprove if blizzard decided to change the view for no reason though.
Since when is this thread about me?
I disapprove quite a bit of D3 design decisions made so far, but those are very unpopular opinions so I just keep them to myself lately.
Blizzard wants to keep the core features of the Diablo series
Fixed isometric camera view is one of those... So they've kept it
For this type of game I really cant see any better alternatives than the view they have now. It holds suspense, allows for fog, allows for better randomization, allows for skills to be used more effectively
Just take that last point for example - How would you use all these awesome Diablo style skills effectively with an annoying rotational camera all over the place?... That would be annoying
Do you understand that Sacred 2, Fallout 3 and NWN are not isometric games?
It would be like saying how D3 should not be isometric because Quake 3 isn't. Fallout 3 was migrated from a 2D environment into a 3D one because there was no arcade factor to the gameplay style. Diablo is an arcade game. No one wants to see it migrated to anything else but another isometric hack and slash.
Well, Sacred 1 is an ARPG which also uses an fixed 3D isometric view. Sacred 2 has now migrated to full 3D view and the arcade feeling is still there.
Quote from "Dimebog" »
I think you are also forgetting that Fallout 3 doesn't have randomly-generated dungeons, are you? There's a matter of randomly piecing together detailed assets, and the fact that they can be viewed from one angle only is the only reason why Blizzard will succeed implementing random worlds in a 3D game, which will be the first time ever that anyone does something like that.
Have you forgotten the game Hellgate London? They came from Blizzards, some of them are the original makers of Diablo 1. They've made random-generating maps into a full 3D view. It is a good game and very addicting. Its just full of bugs and the game felt so unpolished (released too early). They could have made it one of the best 3D ARPG games. Too bad they've made a wrong decision by releasing it too early.
Quote from "kefka666333abc123" »
How does it make it a step back in terms of technology? Its probably done for gameplay reasons anyways. It will make the game feel like diablo and play like the last 2. How exactly does it keep it from being technologically inferior??? I mean its just a view point for the player nothing more
The reason I've said that is because I feel that most RPG/APRG games today can now be played with a free camera.
Quote from "Kenelm" »
It's like asking for an isometric camera in a FPS so you can see everything around you.
Killzone from PS2 which is an FPS game has made its way to PSP as Isometric View. It's good except you can't call it an FPS game anymore.
Quote from "Zeyphon" »
Did someone forget to tell me that Mass Effect 2 has been released!? Also, even if Blizzard chose to allow free camera movement before they certainly won't even think about it after the whole art fiasco.
There's no ME2. There's just too much going on my mind and mixed up some things.
Thanks for you feedback guys. I've appreciated it. It can't be done anymore unless we're asking the game to be delayed. Instead of asking Blizzard to include it, its just better to find another title for that.
I've say one of my biggest releave about D3 was when I saw the isometric camera. Imo that bring alot of good things to the game:
1) They want us to consetrate our mouse in movement and aim spells, not in move the camera. The only way they could do that is limit the camera to a single angle, so all combat situations are planned to be saw in that angle, removing all needs of change camera position.
2) Diablo is supose to be a game that you fight with so many monsters at the same time that you really need a 360º point of view. You can do it without a fixed camera, but a fixed one is much better.
The reason I've said that is because I feel that most RPG/APRG games today can now be played with a free camera.
A lot of games long before d2 or even d1 had those kindas of views as well so using a iso top down view is far from a step back
Quote from "italofoca" »
I've say one of my biggest releave about D3 was when I saw the isometric camera. Imo that bring alot of good things to the game:
1) They want us to consetrate our mouse in movement and aim spells, not in move the camera. The only way they could do that is limit the camera to a single angle, so all combat situations are planned to be saw in that angle, removing all needs of change camera position.
2) Diablo is supose to be a game that you fight with so many monsters at the same time that you really need a 360º point of view. You can do it without a fixed camera, but a fixed one is much better.
This is another good reason the isometric view is in D3. Plain and simple with a fixed camera theres no way that our chosen camera angle can keep us from missing things in the game or be distracted from the fighting while we try and give ourselves the best possible view of the action. With a fixed camera none of this will be an issue, so we can focus on the game itself and not the camera
They would have to develop and implement background material to all sides of the world which takes time and resource while being completely pointless to the gameplay. When I say background I mean things that you see going on behind the assets but can't reach. There's nothing from the camera side. Most assets are built to be seen from one angle and designed to be functional that way. For example, you know how doors in D2 were never generated on the camera side? Or how dungeon level entrances were always to the northeast or northwest? It's the same kind of deal with these new assets. They are all built in such way to look the best from one angle and also to never obscure the vital gameplay space.
Rotating the camera would allow players to peek at things that they are not supposed to see. There's a further meaning behind light radius other than appealing to your inner emo.
Rotating the camera would either have a real gameplay purpose, in which case they would have to add keyboard buttons specially used for that which would in any case change the way the game is played and divert the focus from hacking and slashing (mouse is already taken, right?), or it would be just a thing of vanity in which case they would have to do three times more development to assure that same things look equally good from all angles and also modifying the randomization algorithms.
They would have to develop and implement background material to all sides of the world which takes time and resource while being completely pointless to the gameplay. When I say background I mean things that you see going on behind the assets but can't reach. There's nothing from the camera side. Most assets are built to be seen from one angle and designed to be functional that way. For example, you know how doors in D2 were never generated on the camera side? Or how dungeon level entrances were always to the northeast or northwest? It's the same kind of deal with these new assets. They are all built in such way to look the best from one angle and also to never obscure the vital gameplay space.
Rotating the camera would allow players to peek at things that they are not supposed to see. There's a further meaning behind light radius other than appealing to your inner emo.
Rotating the camera would either have a real gameplay purpose, in which case they would have to add keyboard buttons specially used for that which would in any case change the way the game is played and divert the focus from hacking and slashing (mouse is already taken, right?), or it would be just a thing of vanity in which case they would have to do three times more development to assure that same things look equally good from all angles and also modifying the randomization algorithms.
This is exactly what i was trying to say....just dimebog said it waaaaaaay better XD......
Exactly. Many people believe iso to be an old technology used in games before views like FP or Third Person (behind shoulder) view were possible. In reality this is far from the truth, in fact its even the opposite, namely iso came into existence not because of limited technology but because it was exactly the goal of the developers to give the player a superior overview in certain type of games and this fact does not change today. Thus if the game would've had a clunky view, like that of an FPS, then that truly would have been a huge step backwards.
Yup thats exactly right :). Another thing I like about the old fixed camera tho is that it allows for maximum attention to the game...not positioning of the camera......for example: In wow i was the MT for my guild. Now theres nothing wrong with wow or its camera and the games controls r almost perfect...BUT on some occasions in the middle of a raid boss encounter if i pressed say the mouse and moved the camera and then my character by mistake all of a sudden my back turned to the boss and then boom....crush crush...MT goes down and the raid wipes.....all because i was freaking out on the camera and didnt see wtf was going on for just a few seconds.....so with a fixed camer in D3 things like this will not happen, you dont have to focus on getting that optimal camera position:D....
In Diablo terms.....imagine dueling 1v1 and you die cuz you ran into a wall or something and obsecured your view and you lost. You would be pissed certainly....but with a fixed camera you get to focus on the action.....nothing else therefore the camera cannot be an issue:D...
Yeah I agree with many posts here. They don't want us to be rolling all over with the camera.. they want us to beat the monsters down then checking out the loot and loot them.
I've read some console game reviews about this type of adventure, rpg, arpg games and almost none of those ever have isometric camera, they try to impress the player with nice follow camera or such but almost always they FAIL bad. Most of the criticism always come from bad camera, or "you have to move the camera all the time". This kinds of things won't ever happen with fixed isometric view.
You can't rotate the camera or move it around because assets are built to be seen from one angle. They only build the visible side of things.
If that's true then that sucks. Sacred 2, Divinity 2: Ego Draconis, Neverwinter Ngihts, Fallout 3, Mass Effect 2 are just few good RPGs that let you move the camera freely. They are all successful in their own and I don't understand why Blizzard's stick to their old formula. Was it because to retain the Diablo feeling or preventing their game to look similar from WoW? Whatever the reasons it just makes D3 one step behind from modern games in terms of technology.
EDIT: Just to add, Sacred 2, Fallout 3 and Neverwinter Nights to name a few are just few RPGs that migrated from fixed camera angle to full 3D and still get a very high scores (except from Sacred 2 which is still solid game in its own).
It would be like saying how D3 should not be isometric because Quake 3 isn't. Fallout 3 was migrated from a 2D environment into a 3D one because there was no arcade factor to the gameplay style. Diablo is an arcade game. No one wants to see it migrated to anything else but another isometric hack and slash.
I think you are also forgetting that Fallout 3 doesn't have randomly-generated dungeons, are you? There's a matter of randomly piecing together detailed assets, and the fact that they can be viewed from one angle only is the only reason why Blizzard will succeed implementing random worlds in a 3D game, which will be the first time ever that anyone does something like that.
for no spam: i prefer the 3d isometric cuz thats what i learned to draw/design in back in school
How does it make it a step back in terms of technology? Its probably done for gameplay reasons anyways. It will make the game feel like diablo and play like the last 2. How exactly does it keep it from being technologically inferior??? I mean its just a view point for the player nothing more
Example: You finish a dungeon and the camera focuses on the final boss as he dies and changes the angle during the death animation. There wasn't any of this in the demo, but it'seems conceivable and might make a good transition to the cutscenes.
Did someone forget to tell me that Mass Effect 2 has been released!? Also, even if Blizzard chose to allow free camera movement before they certainly won't even think about it after the whole art fiasco.
"Because "half-assed" is not a "style"." - DragoonWraith, champion of character customization and legimitate art direction in D3
I disapprove quite a bit of D3 design decisions made so far, but those are very unpopular opinions so I just keep them to myself lately.
Fixed isometric camera view is one of those... So they've kept it
For this type of game I really cant see any better alternatives than the view they have now. It holds suspense, allows for fog, allows for better randomization, allows for skills to be used more effectively
Just take that last point for example - How would you use all these awesome Diablo style skills effectively with an annoying rotational camera all over the place?... That would be annoying
Well, Sacred 1 is an ARPG which also uses an fixed 3D isometric view. Sacred 2 has now migrated to full 3D view and the arcade feeling is still there.
Have you forgotten the game Hellgate London? They came from Blizzards, some of them are the original makers of Diablo 1. They've made random-generating maps into a full 3D view. It is a good game and very addicting. Its just full of bugs and the game felt so unpolished (released too early). They could have made it one of the best 3D ARPG games. Too bad they've made a wrong decision by releasing it too early.
The reason I've said that is because I feel that most RPG/APRG games today can now be played with a free camera.
Killzone from PS2 which is an FPS game has made its way to PSP as Isometric View. It's good except you can't call it an FPS game anymore.
There's no ME2. There's just too much going on my mind and mixed up some things.
Thanks for you feedback guys. I've appreciated it. It can't be done anymore unless we're asking the game to be delayed. Instead of asking Blizzard to include it, its just better to find another title for that.
1) They want us to consetrate our mouse in movement and aim spells, not in move the camera. The only way they could do that is limit the camera to a single angle, so all combat situations are planned to be saw in that angle, removing all needs of change camera position.
2) Diablo is supose to be a game that you fight with so many monsters at the same time that you really need a 360º point of view. You can do it without a fixed camera, but a fixed one is much better.
A lot of games long before d2 or even d1 had those kindas of views as well so using a iso top down view is far from a step back
This is another good reason the isometric view is in D3. Plain and simple with a fixed camera theres no way that our chosen camera angle can keep us from missing things in the game or be distracted from the fighting while we try and give ourselves the best possible view of the action. With a fixed camera none of this will be an issue, so we can focus on the game itself and not the camera
Rotating the camera would allow players to peek at things that they are not supposed to see. There's a further meaning behind light radius other than appealing to your inner emo.
Rotating the camera would either have a real gameplay purpose, in which case they would have to add keyboard buttons specially used for that which would in any case change the way the game is played and divert the focus from hacking and slashing (mouse is already taken, right?), or it would be just a thing of vanity in which case they would have to do three times more development to assure that same things look equally good from all angles and also modifying the randomization algorithms.
This is exactly what i was trying to say....just dimebog said it waaaaaaay better XD......
Yup thats exactly right :). Another thing I like about the old fixed camera tho is that it allows for maximum attention to the game...not positioning of the camera......for example: In wow i was the MT for my guild. Now theres nothing wrong with wow or its camera and the games controls r almost perfect...BUT on some occasions in the middle of a raid boss encounter if i pressed say the mouse and moved the camera and then my character by mistake all of a sudden my back turned to the boss and then boom....crush crush...MT goes down and the raid wipes.....all because i was freaking out on the camera and didnt see wtf was going on for just a few seconds.....so with a fixed camer in D3 things like this will not happen, you dont have to focus on getting that optimal camera position:D....
In Diablo terms.....imagine dueling 1v1 and you die cuz you ran into a wall or something and obsecured your view and you lost. You would be pissed certainly....but with a fixed camera you get to focus on the action.....nothing else therefore the camera cannot be an issue:D...
TL;DR version: FIXED CAMERA CAN BE REALLY GOOD
I've read some console game reviews about this type of adventure, rpg, arpg games and almost none of those ever have isometric camera, they try to impress the player with nice follow camera or such but almost always they FAIL bad. Most of the criticism always come from bad camera, or "you have to move the camera all the time". This kinds of things won't ever happen with fixed isometric view.
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