Well, like I said... they're not really lessening the customization. By taking into account the fact that they're adding another level of customization, and removing an older and "obsolete" one, one that is no longer needed with the way itemization is being conducted, they're in fact retaining the same amount of customization, while still keeping in mind the role of the characters.
Nah, not a battle of wits, but merely a good discussion by two intellectual people =P I enjoy discussing a topic without any ad hominem attacks.
Its a bit like having a car, but the brakes don't work properly. Well you can try to fix the brakes and hope you don't by mistake flatten the tires. Or you can cut out the brakes and declare the car fixed. One is the easy way out (with horrible consequences) the other is the seemingly more dangerous or risque way out "cause you could be risking to puncture the tires in the process" but the only true hope of having a proper car.
A decent example, but I don't think it describes the situation. I feel it's more like this:
You have a car... Model X. Model X from 7 years ago used a certain system that affects the fuel injection system. Now they're coming out with Model Y... and it uses a new engine system that runs off of Hydrogen. It still does the same thing that Model X did, but there is no use for a Fuel Injection system because the engine doesn't need it anymore.
Quote from "Num3n" »
how is that awesome at all... wtf is that bullshit
they basically are making it an improved version of wow not an improved version of Diablo 2.... holy fucking fuck...
at this point im considering not even buying d3... i cant even believe i just said that but wtf is that...... honestly W T F........ W T F........
If you don't buy D3... I'll be happy. If you're complaining about the game and how it is.... and you don't buy it... that's one less person invading and possibly corrupting my experience with this jewel of a game.
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------------------------------------------- Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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All I want to say is that items in d3 should have greater stat variations, and im not talking "x item can have +20-30 str". I'm saying that every item should have some random attributes and some static. That way a truly unique build can be created just from gear. Then the new stat system builds on the uniqueness. That way there would never be a "best build" because the sheer amout of useful varibles would prevent it. The game would become like a puzzle, having to put the pecies together in a fashion that compliments your builds strategic outlook.
I don't like not having stat requirements for every item. I don't think some puny n00b Barbarian can actually carry a 200Kg great axe without having a pumped Strength.
Bashiok is really being one sided in this thing. Experienced Diablo players (and by experienced, I mean the ones who have played enough to know what's good, and isn't) know how to make the very best of every single attribute point. He's really undermining that system, it's insulting.
I didn't bother reading all the posts here, but I'll just give my 2 cents:
The attribute system in Diablo II was a joke. For any build, you pretty much had to do stats the exact same way (accounting for certain pieces of gear giving +to stats of course) or else you sucked. By and large, most builds had the exact same stat distribution: Enough strength for gear, nothing in energy, and either high enough dex for max block and the rest in vit, or just pump vit. There were a few builds here and there that diverted from this a little bit, but not very much. I've been playing the Diablo franchise almost since the very beginning (I think I started Diablo about a year after it came out), and I couldn't care less about the removal of attribute points. As far as I'm concerned, they were little more than a nuisance. I much prefer the idea of character customization being more heavily based on items, rune combinations, etc. Like it was said, attribute points gave the illusion of customization; everyone pretty much had the same stats.
Also, as far as not having stat requirements for items, that's going to be fixed with level requirements (for the most part). If we're going to talk on more realistic terms, even a level one barbarian should be strong enough for a large axe. As long as level one characters aren't wielding a bunch of powerful uniques, it doesn't bother me.
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"Everywhere the human soul stands between a hemisphere of light and another of darkness; on the confines of the two everlasting empires, necessity and free will." -Thomas Carlyle
I don't like not having stat requirements for every item. I don't think some puny n00b Barbarian can actually carry a 200Kg great axe without having a pumped Strength.
Bashiok is really being one sided in this thing. Experienced Diablo players (and by experienced, I mean the ones who have played enough to know what's good, and isn't) know how to make the very best of every single attribute point. He's really undermining that system, it's insulting.
A noob barbarian looks just as big as a non noob barbarian so I don't see why not. I think it would be cool for strength to affect how fast your attack speed is. So if a noob barb picked up an elite axe his attack speed would be like .5 per second, making that axe completley useless.
I'm sorry he's undermining your love for stat distribution, but you wont know if the new system is better until you try it out. There are too many unquantified and unkown variables to tell. I personaly beleive that the mechanics of diablo are due for an overhaul.
I didn't bother reading all the posts here, but I'll just give my 2 cents:
The attribute system in Diablo II was a joke. For any build, you pretty much had to do stats the exact same way (accounting for certain pieces of gear giving +to stats of course) or else you sucked. By and large, most builds had the exact same stat distribution: Enough strength for gear, nothing in energy, and either high enough dex for max block and the rest in vit, or just pump vit. There were a few builds here and there that diverted from this a little bit, but not very much. I've been playing the Diablo franchise almost since the very beginning (I think I started Diablo about a year after it came out), and I couldn't care less about the removal of attribute points. As far as I'm concerned, they were little more than a nuisance. I much prefer the idea of character customization being more heavily based on items, rune combinations, etc. Like it was said, attribute points gave the illusion of customization; everyone pretty much had the same stats.
Also, as far as not having stat requirements for items, that's going to be fixed with level requirements (for the most part). If we're going to talk on more realistic terms, even a level one barbarian should be strong enough for a large axe. As long as level one characters aren't wielding a bunch of powerful uniques, it doesn't bother me.
Then fix the system, not take it off completely.
Quote from "Murderface" »
A noob barbarian looks just as big as a non noob barbarian so I don't see why not. I think it would be cool for strength to affect how fast your attack speed is. So if a noob barb picked up an elite axe his attack speed would be like .5 per second, making that axe completley useless.
I'm sorry he's undermining your love for stat distribution, but you wont know if the new system is better until you try it out. There are too many unquantified and unkown variables to tell. I personaly beleive that the mechanics of diablo are due for an overhaul.
A n00b Barbarian shouldn't even be able to carry a great axe, nevertheless swing it "slowly". They should it make so that he gets more muscular as you add strength, and not make him a fucking beast from the get-go.
Wow, this thread has certainly racked up a lot of replies. Well basically, I’m on the side that there should be stat customization in Diablo II because I just felt that that it was great to play around with, and they could have made it so that there were a lot of diverse stat setups we could go to. However, I’m not completely against it, I am open to this idea and I will see how I like it when Diablo 3 came out. In a press conference, Jay Wilson said
One of the things that we looked at with Diablo 2 is, essentially, before you knew how to play the game, the stat spending -- the only real purpose for it was to break your character, because eventually you'd find “oh I didn’t spend it the right way -- okay well reroll” and once you "know" the right way to do it, there's only one answer… and so that's not really character progression you know and its not really customization so we decided t o remove it and focus a lot of the customization in places where we feel there’s actual customization to make.
This did make me feel a little bit more open to the idea, and it does seem that blizzard has some more things under wraps as far as customization goes.I'm also happy to see that there are no stat requirements on items. Even as a experienced Diablo 2 players, it was frustrating having to put stat points into strength because I needed to meet certain requirements for items, or not being able to use an item right when I found it.
Look, even though it might be slightly irritating for some, what can add a realistic touch to a game like Diablo, should be added. You have 10 strength, it's "realistic" for you to be unable to wear a platemail, and run around, fighting hordes of enemies. It is however, if you have 160 strength, wearing such a thing.
You guys just like most things to be easy, when really, if a thing is hard to obtain, it will be so much sweeter when I actually get it.
Fuck..by what it looks like right now, I wouldn't be surprised if I found a level 1 Wizard holding an orb that a level 91 Sorceress would be carrying the likes of in Diablo II.
Oh, and to those who said people need to fail to learn. There is nothing fun about realising that the character you have been leveling for weeks has just been fucked up because you allocated his stats or skills "wrong", and now have to re-level the same character just to be on par with other players or the difficulty.
Why the quotation marks? You think that there shouldn't be a wrong answer, that there "are no wrong answers" or some other bullshit cop-out position? You should be able to fuck your character up utterly, just as you can fail utterly at actually playing the game.
When you answer that 2+2 is five in kindergarten, other kids or the teacher correct you and you actually learn the right answer. Those that don't never make it anywhere, as it should be. The same principle applies to retarded engineering students who can't even grasp the concept of partial differential equations, and similar examples. There is such a thing as being WRONG, and learning from it is critical.
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zsfh-maz of UsWest, 95 BvB king
"Because "half-assed" is not a "style"." - DragoonWraith, champion of character customization and legimitate art direction in D3
Before you guys say this system is shitty you first must understands how it works.
In D3 we'll not put stats lvling up, we put it wearing equipaments. So all the customisation you theorically lost you can get back by the new item and rune system. Remove the requeriments was asmart choice, because now your char have more options - so, more customisation.
The only major difference is that you can change equipament and then change your stats, no need for reroll your character.
Also they are trying to simplify those aspects of the game - so new players can understand it easily, BUT turn the gameplay more complex at the same time. Someone that hate changes that help noobs must be quite a frustrated or selfsh person. If you want to be better then the others in a game, don't count on stupid things like know builds and exploits, just pratice your eye-hand reflex ¬¬''
@angelmaz:For God sake, diablo is not school. To play a game you don't have to study it first. Reroll is something 100% frustrating that only ppl who have almost unlimited time to play a game accept. This elitist point of view, were the ones who can dedicates hours in lvling like 300 characters must excentially be better then the someone that wants to level up just one is redicolous. As i said, if you want to be better then someone, you must get a competitive game. And for a game been competitive the only factor that diferenciate a good and a bad play is SKILL. Not patience and time to make the same thing again and again 300 times.
This doesn't change the fact that every maxed Wizard will be using the same gear because it's the best and all of them can.
They should have focused on making the stats more important instead of removing the ability to choose. I think they will be sadly disappointed when they find out they haven't done anything to improve the uniqueness of characters from player to player.
So then everyone has the same melee Wizard wearing the same +Strength gear? How silly is that?
I prefer customization. I would like a Melee Wizard to stand a chance against a Barbarian, since they gave us the option to make one. Otherwise why bother? Give different reasons for upping the stats and you have stopped "dump stats"
Diablo is a PvM, not PvP, game.
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It's the decisions you make when you have no time to make them that define who you are.
This doesn't change the fact that every maxed Wizard will be using the same gear because it's the best and all of them can.
They should have focused on making the stats more important instead of removing the ability to choose. I think they will be sadly disappointed when they find out they haven't done anything to improve the uniqueness of characters from player to player.
I actually laughed when I read this. It was the exact same way in Diablo II. Everyone who shared your build pretty much shared the exact same gear if they could afford it. The attribute didn't work at all towards preventing this. Basically, the only difference between Diablo II's system and the new one is that I no longer have to spend the energy to physically click on that strength button when I level up. Besides, I think this system will allow for far more unique characters, especially with the runes. As far as I'm concerned, having 20 more strength then another Wizard of the same build is not really unique (or at least not at a meaningful level).
Someone suggested, as an answer to one of my previous posts, that they ought to fix the system instead of removing it. How the heck would you even do that? You really can't because the system is inherently broken. It's not a bad system necessarily because Blizzard designed it poorly, but rather as a side effect of it being an attribute system. If you have an attribute system in conjunction with a skill system like in Diablo II, you will always run into the same problems: Everyone will use the same few builds for each character, and each build will always have the exact same stats, skills, and gear (so long as it can be afforded).
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"Everywhere the human soul stands between a hemisphere of light and another of darkness; on the confines of the two everlasting empires, necessity and free will." -Thomas Carlyle
That is patently false. The only reason anyone played Diablo 2 through more than a few times was to build perfect pvp characters. Really, what the hell is the point of getting better gear and optimizing your stats/skills/charms? To kill baal and his minions faster? I hope that last sentence conveyed my incredulity..
Edit to Italfoca:
Quote from "italofoca" »
@angelmaz:For God sake, diablo is not school. To play a game you don't have to study it first. Reroll is something 100% frustrating that only ppl who have almost unlimited time to play a game accept. This elitist point of view, were the ones who can dedicates hours in lvling like 300 characters must excentially be better then the someone that wants to level up just one is redicolous. As i said, if you want to be better then someone, you must get a competitive game. And for a game been competitive the only factor that diferenciate a good and a bad play is SKILL. Not patience and time to make the same thing again and again 300 times.
To be good at any worthwhile game one must study it, understand how it works, how to take advantage of every possible opportunity and maximize every parameter of excellence. It isn't a question of time spent; plenty of the perpetual noobs I often refer to (players who play the game for years without ever comprehending game mechanics) play much more than me. The difference is that I spend more time thinking carefully about how best to play the game. Fools like yourself don't want to have to do this, and are tired of being owned by more thoughtful players like myself. Removing aspects of customization, and thus parameters of excellence, makes the careful thought and preparation that should go into making a perfect character less important. That is a tragedy to all the real gamers out there.
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zsfh-maz of UsWest, 95 BvB king
"Because "half-assed" is not a "style"." - DragoonWraith, champion of character customization and legimitate art direction in D3
Diabo was MEANT to be a PvM game, but by Battle.net and freedom of choice it became a PvP game. I know a lot of people who just played to do ubers, MF and help others. There are also a lot of people who play just to PvP. Just depends on what you like to do.
Keep in mind though in order to PvP you have to PvM and not vice versa.
Hopefully they will make a big enough abundance of items people won't all be wearing the same thing. I think they need to stay away from high end sets that cover everything you need. That way it doesn't become like WoW with everyone just hunting for D3 equivalent of Tier 6 pieces.(sorry for the comparison)
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how is that awesome at all... wtf is that bullshit
they basically are making it an improved version of wow not an improved version of Diablo 2.... holy fucking fuck...
at this point im considering not even buying d3... i cant even believe i just said that but wtf is that...... honestly W T F........ W T F........
Nah, not a battle of wits, but merely a good discussion by two intellectual people =P I enjoy discussing a topic without any ad hominem attacks.
A decent example, but I don't think it describes the situation. I feel it's more like this:
You have a car... Model X. Model X from 7 years ago used a certain system that affects the fuel injection system. Now they're coming out with Model Y... and it uses a new engine system that runs off of Hydrogen. It still does the same thing that Model X did, but there is no use for a Fuel Injection system because the engine doesn't need it anymore.
If you don't buy D3... I'll be happy. If you're complaining about the game and how it is.... and you don't buy it... that's one less person invading and possibly corrupting my experience with this jewel of a game.
-------------------------------------------
Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
Fuck you, I'm a dragon.
Bashiok is really being one sided in this thing. Experienced Diablo players (and by experienced, I mean the ones who have played enough to know what's good, and isn't) know how to make the very best of every single attribute point. He's really undermining that system, it's insulting.
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
The attribute system in Diablo II was a joke. For any build, you pretty much had to do stats the exact same way (accounting for certain pieces of gear giving +to stats of course) or else you sucked. By and large, most builds had the exact same stat distribution: Enough strength for gear, nothing in energy, and either high enough dex for max block and the rest in vit, or just pump vit. There were a few builds here and there that diverted from this a little bit, but not very much. I've been playing the Diablo franchise almost since the very beginning (I think I started Diablo about a year after it came out), and I couldn't care less about the removal of attribute points. As far as I'm concerned, they were little more than a nuisance. I much prefer the idea of character customization being more heavily based on items, rune combinations, etc. Like it was said, attribute points gave the illusion of customization; everyone pretty much had the same stats.
Also, as far as not having stat requirements for items, that's going to be fixed with level requirements (for the most part). If we're going to talk on more realistic terms, even a level one barbarian should be strong enough for a large axe. As long as level one characters aren't wielding a bunch of powerful uniques, it doesn't bother me.
"Everywhere the human soul stands between a hemisphere of light and another of darkness; on the confines of the two everlasting empires, necessity and free will."
-Thomas Carlyle
I'm sorry he's undermining your love for stat distribution, but you wont know if the new system is better until you try it out. There are too many unquantified and unkown variables to tell. I personaly beleive that the mechanics of diablo are due for an overhaul.
Fuck you, I'm a dragon.
Then fix the system, not take it off completely.
A n00b Barbarian shouldn't even be able to carry a great axe, nevertheless swing it "slowly". They should it make so that he gets more muscular as you add strength, and not make him a fucking beast from the get-go.
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
This did make me feel a little bit more open to the idea, and it does seem that blizzard has some more things under wraps as far as customization goes.I'm also happy to see that there are no stat requirements on items. Even as a experienced Diablo 2 players, it was frustrating having to put stat points into strength because I needed to meet certain requirements for items, or not being able to use an item right when I found it.
Maybe it is time for a change..
You guys just like most things to be easy, when really, if a thing is hard to obtain, it will be so much sweeter when I actually get it.
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
I hope.
Fuck..by what it looks like right now, I wouldn't be surprised if I found a level 1 Wizard holding an orb that a level 91 Sorceress would be carrying the likes of in Diablo II.
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
Why the quotation marks? You think that there shouldn't be a wrong answer, that there "are no wrong answers" or some other bullshit cop-out position? You should be able to fuck your character up utterly, just as you can fail utterly at actually playing the game.
When you answer that 2+2 is five in kindergarten, other kids or the teacher correct you and you actually learn the right answer. Those that don't never make it anywhere, as it should be. The same principle applies to retarded engineering students who can't even grasp the concept of partial differential equations, and similar examples. There is such a thing as being WRONG, and learning from it is critical.
"Because "half-assed" is not a "style"." - DragoonWraith, champion of character customization and legimitate art direction in D3
In D3 we'll not put stats lvling up, we put it wearing equipaments. So all the customisation you theorically lost you can get back by the new item and rune system. Remove the requeriments was asmart choice, because now your char have more options - so, more customisation.
The only major difference is that you can change equipament and then change your stats, no need for reroll your character.
Also they are trying to simplify those aspects of the game - so new players can understand it easily, BUT turn the gameplay more complex at the same time. Someone that hate changes that help noobs must be quite a frustrated or selfsh person. If you want to be better then the others in a game, don't count on stupid things like know builds and exploits, just pratice your eye-hand reflex ¬¬''
@angelmaz:For God sake, diablo is not school. To play a game you don't have to study it first. Reroll is something 100% frustrating that only ppl who have almost unlimited time to play a game accept. This elitist point of view, were the ones who can dedicates hours in lvling like 300 characters must excentially be better then the someone that wants to level up just one is redicolous. As i said, if you want to be better then someone, you must get a competitive game. And for a game been competitive the only factor that diferenciate a good and a bad play is SKILL. Not patience and time to make the same thing again and again 300 times.
They should have focused on making the stats more important instead of removing the ability to choose. I think they will be sadly disappointed when they find out they haven't done anything to improve the uniqueness of characters from player to player.
Vote:
http://www.diablofans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17929
How many gear pieces will there be, for - as an example - the Wizard?
In the end, like a lot of people had similar if not identical builds..a lot of people will have similar if not identical gear.
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
Diablo is a PvM, not PvP, game.
It's the decisions you make when you have no time to make them that define who you are.
I actually laughed when I read this. It was the exact same way in Diablo II. Everyone who shared your build pretty much shared the exact same gear if they could afford it. The attribute didn't work at all towards preventing this. Basically, the only difference between Diablo II's system and the new one is that I no longer have to spend the energy to physically click on that strength button when I level up. Besides, I think this system will allow for far more unique characters, especially with the runes. As far as I'm concerned, having 20 more strength then another Wizard of the same build is not really unique (or at least not at a meaningful level).
Someone suggested, as an answer to one of my previous posts, that they ought to fix the system instead of removing it. How the heck would you even do that? You really can't because the system is inherently broken. It's not a bad system necessarily because Blizzard designed it poorly, but rather as a side effect of it being an attribute system. If you have an attribute system in conjunction with a skill system like in Diablo II, you will always run into the same problems: Everyone will use the same few builds for each character, and each build will always have the exact same stats, skills, and gear (so long as it can be afforded).
"Everywhere the human soul stands between a hemisphere of light and another of darkness; on the confines of the two everlasting empires, necessity and free will."
-Thomas Carlyle
That is patently false. The only reason anyone played Diablo 2 through more than a few times was to build perfect pvp characters. Really, what the hell is the point of getting better gear and optimizing your stats/skills/charms? To kill baal and his minions faster? I hope that last sentence conveyed my incredulity..
Edit to Italfoca:
To be good at any worthwhile game one must study it, understand how it works, how to take advantage of every possible opportunity and maximize every parameter of excellence. It isn't a question of time spent; plenty of the perpetual noobs I often refer to (players who play the game for years without ever comprehending game mechanics) play much more than me. The difference is that I spend more time thinking carefully about how best to play the game. Fools like yourself don't want to have to do this, and are tired of being owned by more thoughtful players like myself. Removing aspects of customization, and thus parameters of excellence, makes the careful thought and preparation that should go into making a perfect character less important. That is a tragedy to all the real gamers out there.
"Because "half-assed" is not a "style"." - DragoonWraith, champion of character customization and legimitate art direction in D3
Keep in mind though in order to PvP you have to PvM and not vice versa.
Hopefully they will make a big enough abundance of items people won't all be wearing the same thing. I think they need to stay away from high end sets that cover everything you need. That way it doesn't become like WoW with everyone just hunting for D3 equivalent of Tier 6 pieces.(sorry for the comparison)