Are you trying to confuse me into agreeing with you? I'm going to have to ignore the bomb you just dropped and stick to the one part that makes sense: attribute system hindered the customization of classes. The attribute system lets us customize our classes however we want. No attribute system automates our classes for us. Customization good. Automation bad. Let's keep it simple.
I think what he meant was that the stat system weighed far to heavily on the system as a whole rather than your characters actual customization being drawn from many different areas.
It gives a false sense of customization. Sort of like thinking that locking your car will actually deter thieves from robbing it.
I have only played a little bit of Diablo 3 so I do not know how the stat system will play out, nor do we have any idea of what other systems of customization Blizzard is actually going to be implementing in Diablo 3 as a whole. All I know is that the if the stat system is off-shifted towards gear and less through static point allocation I will be a happy camper. Diablo should be a game that relies more on gear than stat points.
And to point out what many others have said. Even though D2 offered stat point allocation everyone basically picked the same builds anyways and there was never any customization. If anyone wanted to try something off beat then they were gimped beyond belief. In the end I think manual stat allocation, at least in Diablo's case, lessened customization among classes. It just happend to work with the system that Diablo 1 and 2 had implemented, but it doesn't seem like it would have worked with D3 which is fine with me.
Oh, and to those who said people need to fail to learn. There is nothing fun about realising that the character you have been leveling for weeks has just been fucked up because you allocated his stats or skills "wrong", and now have to re-level the same character just to be on par with other players or the difficulty. It is extremely redious and actually takes away from the replabitiy because no one likes to do the same thing twice, thats boring. In WoW I remember doing the beginner human quests about 15 million times and it prevented me from making another human character simply because I felt I was going to puke if I ever had to do it again.
There is one thing to letting a person fail and start from the bottom, and letting a person fail but giving them a helping hand. One sucks, and one is better and slightly more fun. Not to mention the fact that this is not the real world and people play games to get away from the real world. This is why FPS's offer check points and allow you to save if you die, and RPG's offer you save points. No one wants to go back to the arcade days of having to sit and play an entire game of Super Mario Land in one sitting because if you die or turn the game off you have to start over. No one likes to fail... and games don't need to teach that lesson.
And to point out what many others have said. Even though D2 offered stat point allocation everyone basically picked the same builds anyways and there was never any customization.
That's not completely true. It became true years after the game was released and people knew exactly what items they would be using which happened mostly because of duping. Why not balance the attribute system instead of remove it completely?
A good example is low level dueling. At one point low level dueling was the one place you could be sure there was no dupes (at least the realm I played on). Without dupes you never knew what the person was bringing to the table. Maybe their weapon forced them to put most of their points into str/dex, maybe they had more vit. It depended on the item, on charms, and on point distribution. It proved how much dupes had ruined the game and how much mystery there could be without them. I think that if you're blaming the attribute system because it made people build the same character you should really be blaming dupes and unbalance. Vitality points didn't have to be geater in value than points into other attributes. Blizzard made it that way. Unbalance in Diablo 2 is something Diablo 3 can work on.
Instead of work on the attribute system to balance it out they choose to remove it completely? Lame.
EDIT:
In WoW I remember doing the beginner human quests about 15 million times and it prevented me from making another human character simply because I felt I was going to puke if I ever had to do it again.
I really doubt you made 15 million human characters. And even though I realize you're exaggerating, I just don't think you should be comparing WoW to Diablo 3.
That's not completely true. It became true years after the game was released and people knew exactly what items they would be using which happened mostly because of duping. Why not balance the attribute system instead of remove it completely?
Years? Maybe some months. People knew that Bec-de corbin was was one of the best barbarian WW weapon in a few months. They knew that sorcs didn't need much strenght.
Even when you didn't know what amount of stats you needed in str/dex, meaning that you didn't know what items you would be wearing, you could just save your points from str/dex by wearing gemmed helms with strenght + other items with lots of strenght but perhaps weak stats. So you were basically wearing bad items untill you get better items with strenght so that you didn't have to put extra points to it and were able to put more vita.
Stop whining before you actually have played the game trough up to 70+ levels.
So nice to bitch about all these things when you haven't even seen more than 5-10% of the game and haven't even played it.
Your post was too much of a wall.. couldn't read it.
But who made the guides? The non idiots.. I was replying to the guy who said "why make games idiot proof" well D2 was because the smarter people had already figured out all the tricky stuff for the idiots.
I hope these forums were idiot proof, alas I have to listen to you bitch and moan about everything. You want character customization by limiting it to several pieces of gear it can wear? That's some fine logic you got there sir.
Your IQ doesn't seem to understand all the new character customization mechanisms that they are implementing to the game. Shut the F up already.. Troll.
So then everyone has the same melee Wizard wearing the same +Strength gear? How silly is that?
I prefer customization. I would like a Melee Wizard to stand a chance against a Barbarian, since they gave us the option to make one. Otherwise why bother? ...
No offense, but that's an extremely ludicrous idea. Why would a melee wizard be able to hold a flame to a Barbarian? That's why you would play a Barbarian.... for the melee.
Look at it from a lore or even mildly realistic point of view. You're commanding control over a wizard... (the class you chose)... who is at this point in their mid 20's. They've come this far in their magical skill that they are formidable in combat. And now you want to change that to meet the barbarian's level? A level that has currently surpassed the Wizard in physical and melee skill. That's absurd.
Yes, having customization over a character is one thing... but I feel that the automatic allocation of attribute points (and removing stat requirements from gear) is an excellent idea due to the fact that each class is designed for a multitude of roles that fall under a certain genre. The designers understand that a melee Wizard is utterly useless... and have barred that aspect to prevent people from creating a useless character, only to turn around and make that same character over with a completely new set of useless points like Dex.
I personally feel this move is designed to make the already customizable characters (With skills, runes, and gear) not overly complex so that people new to the genre aren't overwhelmed... and those who are not new to the genre focus better on the itemization and skill-sets for more complex and personal builds.
That's my 2gp a least.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------------------------------- Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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Distributable stat systems in RPG are limited severely if a player decides to perfect their build. For MMORPG with customizable stats system, most of the time you'll be spending hours and hours looking for "the optimal" stat distribution for a specific class, making sure you don't have too much health or mana.
Has anyone here played Mass Effect? That game is one fine example of crazed perfectionists. People calculate the optimal builds by reading the Mass Effect game system. They look and isolate different skills that happen when cast or on impact. Using these as calculation they calculate damage to over 5 decimal points.
Basically, some hardcore gamers are willing to "break up" a game to find loopholes (not bugs) in the system. Taking away the possibilty of stat distribution may seem like an over simplyfying move, but it allows you to be more original. It makes us rely more on different skill combinations with different runes as well as items.
Also for some Diablo 2 players, after reaching level 70, a lot of players will stop distributing stat points. Instead, they'll save them to make sure the requirements for items are reached, the last thing anyone wants is a level 80 character with not enough vitality points to wear some unique item.
I didn't read the whole thread, but Baskiok did mention they have several systems they haven't even announced and hinted that these systems are related to stats in some way. I think that should give us a bit of healthy skepticism and not "OMG I CANT MAKE MELEE WIZXARD EVER"
I didn't read the whole thread, but Baskiok did mention they have several systems they haven't even announced and hinted that these systems are related to stats in some way. I think that should give us a bit of healthy skepticism and not "OMG I CANT MAKE MELEE WIZXARD EVER"
Thanks.
Yeah exactly, huge whine when people haven't even seen much of the game. Just like the graphics in the summer. Where are the graphic whiners now?
I agree that stats were not very balanced but much of the problematic had more to do with uber gear. It made you get away with placing no point at all into anything but vitality. Thats not the fault of the statsystem itself, thats the fault of the influx of uber gear pretty much everybody had due to duping en masse.
You're right about the gear.... the placement of the uber runewords set up failure due to "Twinking".... I only need 108 STR to equip that perfect AP CoH... but with this this and that... I only need 63... base dex, 30 into energy, and the rest into Vitality. Though mildly warranted with 1.10... They're using a different system for customization that focuses on items and customized skill trees even more so than D2's.
The argument that doing away with this customization makes you be more original is faulty all the way, the reason is that you continue with the reasoning that it makes you focus more on different skill combinations with runes and items which are in its basics simply more customization.
But it does. With more skill combinations, with the effects of runes, and with the increase of gear on skill combinations... There are far more combinations and customization provided. This isn't faulty at all.
Thus if doing away with one makes you be more original in building a character then it goes for every sort of customization which has an effect on the gameplay. In essence you ask for what you considered to be bad balancing in D2 (same sort of stat placement amongst all characters) and focus on items to automatically fill in the gaps to be worse in D3 by not even giving people the choice to focus on stats placement if they want to.
Its made of fail imo..
Okay.... so you're logic is that if you were to take the stat distribution out of the current amount of customization then you get less customization. I understand what you're saying... but I think you're looking at the situation wrong. They're levelling out the playing field. They're taking the increase of customization from Runes and itemization with the current amount of personalization from skills and removing the stat distribution to make up for the already high degrees of customization.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------------------------------- Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
I agree that stats were not very balanced but much of the problematic had more to do with uber gear. It made you get away with placing no point at all into anything but vitality. Thats not the fault of the statsystem itself, thats the fault of the influx of uber gear pretty much everybody had due to duping en masse.
They were problematic even before LOD where gear wasn't that overkill. You could easily make a sorc without spending any point to strenght. Getting a belt with strenght, boots with strenght and some amu with strenght or 2 soc helm with Ames wasn't that hard. Those + some other str items and you had around 45 strenght that you needed for magefists. Well the itemization was a lot different back then but it was still about getting a lot of vitality or with those days energy shield mechanics and spell mechanics, getting big mana pool.
In D3, where whe have no str reqs for items, I don't have to wear those replacement strenght gears that have weak stats, but instead I can instanly wear the best stuff that I have in my bags at that moment and feel that my character is improving.
not even giving people the choice to focus on stats placement if they want to.
I haven't yet seen much data about how the stats improve / level. But if there is a case that my Wizard is gaining strenght and dex by levels, then I would like to manually choose them. Strenght and dex doesn't seem to be very usefull for a Wizard at least if I want to make a pure caster that tries to avoid getting hit as much as possible(strenght gives armor, dex gives dodge). It might be so that Wizards get most points to willpower, then to vitality and stre/dex could get only once per 2 levels or something.
Well anyways waiting for more info about all the systems they are developing to the game.
The argument revolves around how stat placement in D2 was faulty and tedious due to items canceling out all the helpful bonusses apart from vitality which you couldn't have too much of. Thats exactly the argument to simply take away stats customization, correct?
Ah, I disagree, good sir, to this statement.
Yes, the D2 stat placement is very faulty and tedious, but not specifically due to the reasons you mentioned. With the current builds (created in response to the abomination of the 1.10 patch [author's feelings]) that require specific stat placement (cookie-cutter build down to the core), and specific skill placement, there were no deviations. We could debate the "plethora" of builds available... but only a few have any credence in the game anymore, two or three tops per class (save the Sorceress which I can only count 4). These stats were so tweaked that it belied the very nature of the class itself. Due to the "improvements" made to the game post 1.09c with the increase in difficulty in all Hell acts... it was "required" to pump the majority of your stats save the ones required for gear, into Vitality.
The automatic stat distribution is designed to keep basic stats relevant to the character class updated as frequently, while still maintaining balance amongst the characters. A Melee wizard will be just as "simple" (and I use that term very loosely) as a pure caster... but what it depends on is simply your gear and skill distribution + Rune combination. By simple, I mean it's based on player desire without sacrificing much to a "respec" system that allows players to change their build to better perfect and hand-craft their character.
I hope that makes sense.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------------------------------- Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
Well in truth, Blizzard is taking away 1 and adding 1 back.
The stat system is actually a more simplified system that doesn't negate the possibility of originality, but instead a system that allows us players to have more "control" over our characters. Our stat system obviously means nearly nothing in normal difficulty, mildly important in nightmare difficulty, and a must-be-distributed-properly in Hell difficulty.
However, some may ask why we cannot keep the stat system, yet add skill runes as well. The thing is, the game gets to such a high degree of complexity, that it becomes literally work to play the game with an efficient character. You have to take into account the amount of health you will have, the amount of mana you may need for a specific skill, then consider the item stats and bonus, as well as your skill runes, not to mention skill levels.
Let's also be realistic, stats are the least original part of customization in all RPG games. There are only around 3 good combinations of stats distribution per level, whiles the rest only weakens your character.
The fact that now with the additions of skill runes, the possibilities of originality of the game will now reach sky high.
Ah, but pertaining to your latter statement, in conjunction with my previous statement, they're not impeding customization by adding another element of customization and personalization while removing one that's now considered "obsolete".
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------------------------------- Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
You had me until you started talking about weapons and monsters in FPS games.
Either way. They want to make D3 more of a good RPG game. All good RPG games I know have automatic stat-allocation. That is not a WoW feature, its a feature of all good RPG games and all D&D based games. Did you ever play Baldur's Gate or NWN? Needless to say, original Diablo game was based around D&D so I see this as mature decision made to enhance gameplay and is still completely in spirit with the original premise.
Well, like I said... they're not really lessening the customization. By taking into account the fact that they're adding another level of customization, and removing an older and "obsolete" one, one that is no longer needed with the way itemization is being conducted, they're in fact retaining the same amount of customization, while still keeping in mind the role of the characters.
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------------------------------------------- Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
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I think what he meant was that the stat system weighed far to heavily on the system as a whole rather than your characters actual customization being drawn from many different areas.
It gives a false sense of customization. Sort of like thinking that locking your car will actually deter thieves from robbing it.
I have only played a little bit of Diablo 3 so I do not know how the stat system will play out, nor do we have any idea of what other systems of customization Blizzard is actually going to be implementing in Diablo 3 as a whole. All I know is that the if the stat system is off-shifted towards gear and less through static point allocation I will be a happy camper. Diablo should be a game that relies more on gear than stat points.
And to point out what many others have said. Even though D2 offered stat point allocation everyone basically picked the same builds anyways and there was never any customization. If anyone wanted to try something off beat then they were gimped beyond belief. In the end I think manual stat allocation, at least in Diablo's case, lessened customization among classes. It just happend to work with the system that Diablo 1 and 2 had implemented, but it doesn't seem like it would have worked with D3 which is fine with me.
Oh, and to those who said people need to fail to learn. There is nothing fun about realising that the character you have been leveling for weeks has just been fucked up because you allocated his stats or skills "wrong", and now have to re-level the same character just to be on par with other players or the difficulty. It is extremely redious and actually takes away from the replabitiy because no one likes to do the same thing twice, thats boring. In WoW I remember doing the beginner human quests about 15 million times and it prevented me from making another human character simply because I felt I was going to puke if I ever had to do it again.
There is one thing to letting a person fail and start from the bottom, and letting a person fail but giving them a helping hand. One sucks, and one is better and slightly more fun. Not to mention the fact that this is not the real world and people play games to get away from the real world. This is why FPS's offer check points and allow you to save if you die, and RPG's offer you save points. No one wants to go back to the arcade days of having to sit and play an entire game of Super Mario Land in one sitting because if you die or turn the game off you have to start over. No one likes to fail... and games don't need to teach that lesson.
A good example is low level dueling. At one point low level dueling was the one place you could be sure there was no dupes (at least the realm I played on). Without dupes you never knew what the person was bringing to the table. Maybe their weapon forced them to put most of their points into str/dex, maybe they had more vit. It depended on the item, on charms, and on point distribution. It proved how much dupes had ruined the game and how much mystery there could be without them. I think that if you're blaming the attribute system because it made people build the same character you should really be blaming dupes and unbalance. Vitality points didn't have to be geater in value than points into other attributes. Blizzard made it that way. Unbalance in Diablo 2 is something Diablo 3 can work on.
Instead of work on the attribute system to balance it out they choose to remove it completely? Lame.
EDIT:
I really doubt you made 15 million human characters. And even though I realize you're exaggerating, I just don't think you should be comparing WoW to Diablo 3.
Even when you didn't know what amount of stats you needed in str/dex, meaning that you didn't know what items you would be wearing, you could just save your points from str/dex by wearing gemmed helms with strenght + other items with lots of strenght but perhaps weak stats. So you were basically wearing bad items untill you get better items with strenght so that you didn't have to put extra points to it and were able to put more vita.
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
So nice to bitch about all these things when you haven't even seen more than 5-10% of the game and haven't even played it.
Your post was too much of a wall.. couldn't read it.
But who made the guides? The non idiots.. I was replying to the guy who said "why make games idiot proof" well D2 was because the smarter people had already figured out all the tricky stuff for the idiots.
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
Doppelganger's argue
.
.
.
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
No offense, but that's an extremely ludicrous idea. Why would a melee wizard be able to hold a flame to a Barbarian? That's why you would play a Barbarian.... for the melee.
Look at it from a lore or even mildly realistic point of view. You're commanding control over a wizard... (the class you chose)... who is at this point in their mid 20's. They've come this far in their magical skill that they are formidable in combat. And now you want to change that to meet the barbarian's level? A level that has currently surpassed the Wizard in physical and melee skill. That's absurd.
Yes, having customization over a character is one thing... but I feel that the automatic allocation of attribute points (and removing stat requirements from gear) is an excellent idea due to the fact that each class is designed for a multitude of roles that fall under a certain genre. The designers understand that a melee Wizard is utterly useless... and have barred that aspect to prevent people from creating a useless character, only to turn around and make that same character over with a completely new set of useless points like Dex.
I personally feel this move is designed to make the already customizable characters (With skills, runes, and gear) not overly complex so that people new to the genre aren't overwhelmed... and those who are not new to the genre focus better on the itemization and skill-sets for more complex and personal builds.
That's my 2gp a least.
-------------------------------------------
Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
Has anyone here played Mass Effect? That game is one fine example of crazed perfectionists. People calculate the optimal builds by reading the Mass Effect game system. They look and isolate different skills that happen when cast or on impact. Using these as calculation they calculate damage to over 5 decimal points.
Basically, some hardcore gamers are willing to "break up" a game to find loopholes (not bugs) in the system. Taking away the possibilty of stat distribution may seem like an over simplyfying move, but it allows you to be more original. It makes us rely more on different skill combinations with different runes as well as items.
Also for some Diablo 2 players, after reaching level 70, a lot of players will stop distributing stat points. Instead, they'll save them to make sure the requirements for items are reached, the last thing anyone wants is a level 80 character with not enough vitality points to wear some unique item.
Blizzard
Valve
:thumbsup:
Thanks.
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
You're right about the gear.... the placement of the uber runewords set up failure due to "Twinking".... I only need 108 STR to equip that perfect AP CoH... but with this this and that... I only need 63... base dex, 30 into energy, and the rest into Vitality. Though mildly warranted with 1.10... They're using a different system for customization that focuses on items and customized skill trees even more so than D2's.
But it does. With more skill combinations, with the effects of runes, and with the increase of gear on skill combinations... There are far more combinations and customization provided. This isn't faulty at all.
Okay.... so you're logic is that if you were to take the stat distribution out of the current amount of customization then you get less customization. I understand what you're saying... but I think you're looking at the situation wrong. They're levelling out the playing field. They're taking the increase of customization from Runes and itemization with the current amount of personalization from skills and removing the stat distribution to make up for the already high degrees of customization.
-------------------------------------------
Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
They were problematic even before LOD where gear wasn't that overkill. You could easily make a sorc without spending any point to strenght. Getting a belt with strenght, boots with strenght and some amu with strenght or 2 soc helm with Ames wasn't that hard. Those + some other str items and you had around 45 strenght that you needed for magefists. Well the itemization was a lot different back then but it was still about getting a lot of vitality or with those days energy shield mechanics and spell mechanics, getting big mana pool.
In D3, where whe have no str reqs for items, I don't have to wear those replacement strenght gears that have weak stats, but instead I can instanly wear the best stuff that I have in my bags at that moment and feel that my character is improving.
I haven't yet seen much data about how the stats improve / level. But if there is a case that my Wizard is gaining strenght and dex by levels, then I would like to manually choose them. Strenght and dex doesn't seem to be very usefull for a Wizard at least if I want to make a pure caster that tries to avoid getting hit as much as possible(strenght gives armor, dex gives dodge). It might be so that Wizards get most points to willpower, then to vitality and stre/dex could get only once per 2 levels or something.
Well anyways waiting for more info about all the systems they are developing to the game.
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
Ah, I disagree, good sir, to this statement.
Yes, the D2 stat placement is very faulty and tedious, but not specifically due to the reasons you mentioned. With the current builds (created in response to the abomination of the 1.10 patch [author's feelings]) that require specific stat placement (cookie-cutter build down to the core), and specific skill placement, there were no deviations. We could debate the "plethora" of builds available... but only a few have any credence in the game anymore, two or three tops per class (save the Sorceress which I can only count 4). These stats were so tweaked that it belied the very nature of the class itself. Due to the "improvements" made to the game post 1.09c with the increase in difficulty in all Hell acts... it was "required" to pump the majority of your stats save the ones required for gear, into Vitality.
The automatic stat distribution is designed to keep basic stats relevant to the character class updated as frequently, while still maintaining balance amongst the characters. A Melee wizard will be just as "simple" (and I use that term very loosely) as a pure caster... but what it depends on is simply your gear and skill distribution + Rune combination. By simple, I mean it's based on player desire without sacrificing much to a "respec" system that allows players to change their build to better perfect and hand-craft their character.
I hope that makes sense.
-------------------------------------------
Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
The stat system is actually a more simplified system that doesn't negate the possibility of originality, but instead a system that allows us players to have more "control" over our characters. Our stat system obviously means nearly nothing in normal difficulty, mildly important in nightmare difficulty, and a must-be-distributed-properly in Hell difficulty.
However, some may ask why we cannot keep the stat system, yet add skill runes as well. The thing is, the game gets to such a high degree of complexity, that it becomes literally work to play the game with an efficient character. You have to take into account the amount of health you will have, the amount of mana you may need for a specific skill, then consider the item stats and bonus, as well as your skill runes, not to mention skill levels.
Let's also be realistic, stats are the least original part of customization in all RPG games. There are only around 3 good combinations of stats distribution per level, whiles the rest only weakens your character.
The fact that now with the additions of skill runes, the possibilities of originality of the game will now reach sky high.
Blizzard
Valve
:thumbsup:
-------------------------------------------
Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
Either way. They want to make D3 more of a good RPG game. All good RPG games I know have automatic stat-allocation. That is not a WoW feature, its a feature of all good RPG games and all D&D based games. Did you ever play Baldur's Gate or NWN? Needless to say, original Diablo game was based around D&D so I see this as mature decision made to enhance gameplay and is still completely in spirit with the original premise.
-------------------------------------------
Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------