all I'm saying is that Diablo should be the game others copy from..Diablo shouldn't copy from others.
Diablo (even the first and second ones) copied stuff from others. From monsters, to certain aspects of the game, to specific rules of the game. Same way that other games copied from Diablo after the success (hell, some even tried to be exactly like it).
Its not about not copying something, its about "adopting" something that suits the game and improves the gaming experience.
I dont like the idea of full respecs, at least not without it being limited to a degree, but i would certainly want to get back a talent point that i might have missclicked sometime. Even change a spec that i did on my first char that ended up being useless or deleted. Its a fine line and we'll have to wait till we have more to talk about before we judge.
Diablo (even the first and second ones) copied stuff from others. From monsters, to certain aspects of the game, to specific rules of the game. Same way that other games copied from Diablo after the success (hell, some even tried to be exactly like it).
Its not about not copying something, its about "adopting" something that suits the game and improves the gaming experience.
I dont like the idea of full respecs, at least not without it being limited to a degree, but i would certainly want to get back a talent point that i might have missclicked sometime. Even change a spec that i did on my first char that ended up being useless or deleted. Its a fine line and we'll have to wait till we have more to talk about before we judge.
For now i'm neutral.
As for miss clicks I think a simple system where you have like a short time period to undo what you just did but not enough time to test out the build.
If you make respec easy then as soon as someone comes out with the new 'it' build, it will take 1 second for people to hit the respec button and thats that.
And how do you know it will be one second away? As far as we know, it's going to be limited. They told us they don't want people respeccing all the time or without a penalty.
D2 didn't penalize anything. It allowed you to rush new characters to end-game levels every day. Just transfer gear, delete char, rush a new char in one day, transfer gear back. You can even keep your name and gear just loose your spec. So D3 will either allow people to rush like before (which would be horrible), or offer an alternative respec mechanic.
As for miss clicks I think a simple system where you have like a short time period to undo what you just did but not enough time to test out the build.
i thought of that before and thats what i thought would be the option, but for now theres nothing confirmed.
Having a limit to respecs would be the most appropriate solution cause especially on the first char (of each class) we tend to screw up the talens (in Diablo 2 the stats too) ending up having a useless character that ends up naked (since no matter how good items you might have, you cant deal damage without the appropriate skills). I think that was the idea of the synergies in Diablo 2, to "save" some of the screwed up efforts.
Still, till we know more we should lay back a bit.
Before I used to be all for respecs, but now I'm starting to realize that respecs just aren't right for this game, but maybe it's just me. I just think It lowers the incentive for people to go out there and make more toons and replay the game. Less and less people will be rerolling because they can just respec, and I don't want to have to deal with there not being enough people to play with on Battle.net when I'm rolling a new toon.
If we need to have respecs, Id say make them a costly investment, and only once per character. This might sound a bit extreme, but something like the equivilent of 500g in WoW Pre TBC... could even have that amount double very time you respec for the rest of your characters on that account. It'll provide a gold sink too.
But anyway, I'll give it a chance, those are just my feelings towards it. However...
It can either enhance replay or decrease it, depends on the person. Some people will screw up, have a bad experience and just quit.
That's a good point, I guess I hadn't considered that since I wouldn't just quit.
As for miss clicks I think a simple system where you have like a short time period to undo what you just did but not enough time to test out the build.
Thats a good idea. Make it so the time period is just before you have actually used the skill in any way since you trained it.
Also I'm re-evaluating my previous statement about "respec should take just as long as leveling a character in D2". The difference would be in D2 you could have an elemental druid and a wolf druid then play whatever you feel like at the time. With D3 respec you would have a whim on wanting to play elemental...respec...then have a whim to play shapeshift...respec...etc. That would end up being more of a waste of time than D2, which was the problem they are trying to solve in the first place right???
I would considered quitting if I spent months leveling my character just to be able to learn how to build it, and then have to restart.
I went through it in Diablo II (maybe it wasn't months). But anyway, I'm just saying that he made a good point. I'd be fine if there were respecs, I'd just prefer there not be respecs... I can live with it though.
1. No one is forcing you to respec.
2. They said that they wanted to add respecing but they also said they will put a limit to it, so you won't be able to reassign every single point you've ever used. Enough not to be frustrated by early mistakes.
3. Limited respecing allows you to try out different builds and playing styles. Which give you an idea of how a build would work and then you'd know how exactly to develop that build in another character making the game more focused and intuitive - you make a character with a specific goal.
I never played Diablo to get all the items. I was replaying diablo with every character more than once because there were variety of builds to make and it was just fun to play runs and quests with a bunch of friends.
Have you played Guild Wars? There aren't randomly generated areas there and there is respecing and the replayability is high. The skill system is so flexible you can play with it for days.
Wow, you REALLY don't get it, do you?
1) I think everyone wants to have a relatively powerful character. This means, your character is good compared to other players, not just compared to the monsters you're killing...because even a sucky char can kill monsters.
2) If a person were to specifically not use re-speccing, they would be at a disadvantage compared to other players -- everyone makes mistakes, so they would either have to live with a worse skill distribution, or start over, in which case they would have less XP. Thus, you cannot NOT use re-speccing if it is available if you care about having a relatively good character.
3) We also want to get as much gameplay out of it as possible. We want to enjoy the game for years to come, hopefully.
4) Once you have everything perfected, you will quit. I will quit. Anyone will quit. Thus, the faster you can attain perfection, the less replayability the game has. That is a simple, unarguable fact in any RPG game.
5) Re-speccing allows you to fix mistakes. This allows you to try things out WITHOUT having to create a new character, and it also allows you to fix any mistake you might make. If you dont NEED to create 4 characters and bring them to level 90 in order to pick your skills, then you WONT do it. Period. Therefore allowing to respec will PREVENT people from playing it that many times over. You also dont have to restart to fix a few skill points. Therefore, people WONT restart. They will just be done quicker, and quit quicker.
This couldn't be any closer to a mathematical proof that respeccing reduces replay value. And that is what is meant by "replayability." anything can be played, but nobody will do that if there is no VALUE in replaying.
1) I think everyone wants to have a relatively powerful character. This means, your character is good compared to other players, not just compared to the monsters you're killing...because even a sucky char can kill monsters.
2) If a person were to specifically not use re-speccing, they would be at a disadvantage compared to other players -- everyone makes mistakes, so they would either have to live with a worse skill distribution, or start over, in which case they would have less XP. Thus, you cannot NOT use re-speccing if it is available if you care about having a relatively good character.
3) We also want to get as much gameplay out of it as possible. We want to enjoy the game for years to come, hopefully.
4) Once you have everything perfected, you will quit. I will quit. Anyone will quit. Thus, the faster you can attain perfection, the less replayability the game has. That is a simple, unarguable fact in any RPG game.
5) Re-speccing allows you to fix mistakes. This allows you to try things out WITHOUT having to create a new character, and it also allows you to fix any mistake you might make. If you dont NEED to create 4 characters and bring them to level 90 in order to pick your skills, then you WONT do it. Period. Therefore allowing to respec will PREVENT people from playing it that many times over. You also dont have to restart to fix a few skill points. Therefore, people WONT restart. They will just be done quicker, and quit quicker.
This couldn't be any closer to a mathematical proof that respeccing reduces replay value. And that is what is meant by "replayability." anything can be played, but nobody will do that if there is no VALUE in replaying.
1) I just want to have fun killing monsters with friends. I don't care that someone has a better item than me or that he is a higher level. I don't care much for PvP either, as the case with probably the majority of people who will play it.
2) Again, no one is forcing you to do anything. Respecing will be limited, as they've said before Blizzcon, so it's not going to be possible to completely rework your character so you can use a different skill tree or something like that. Not to mention that runes add a lot more to the skill system now.
3) There are other ways to improve replayability right now. I wouldn't want to do the same thing over and over just to fix mistakes. Repeating exactly the same thing counts as good now? You are free to do it, if you wish.
4) No one attains perfection. Again, the replayability comes from randomized events and quests and stuff like that, not repetition. I will play it to have fun not attain lvl99 with every item possible.
5) You're just saying the same thing over and over. Respecing lets you fix problems faster. Noo, you should start over because you fucked up those 5 skill points there. I don't want to play a boring game. Many games have respecing and millions of people are playing them over and over again. Seems like they've done something right.
I do get it and no, it's not even remotely close to any kind of proof. If you want to do the same thing - be my guest. I on the other hand will have fun trying out new stuff and constantly looking and doing quests, runs and the randomized events and quests will just make my experience even better. And if I fuck up a skill, level it and see that it doesn't do the job I want or doesn't fit my gameplay - I can just fix it to some extent and continue to have more fun. What's the value in replaying something if it's the same fucking thing you were doing for the last two months?
1) If you dont care about that stuff then none of this will really affect you.
2) If there is a respec system I am gonna use it even if I dont like it. Your right im not being forced to use it but it would be stupid not to if everyone else it. Yup im gonna have to join the band wagon.
3) If your just gonna be fighting monsters you prolly wont care about fixing a few minor stats to perfect your char.
4) Yea but you can strive for it. Your missing the point IDK care if they add a million quests and events because I wont participate in them. I play because the game mechanics are fun and so is pvp because a real life opponent is never the same.
So basically if your just about PvM and quests this wont affect you and you prolly should not care.
o yea and sense you like leveling, quests and killing monsters... I don't see why you would have a problem doing it all over again to try a new build instead of just respecing.
Either they will implement the same broken mechanic that lets you remake high-end chars within a day, or they come up with a different respec mechanic.
/discussion
Quote from "Teky-_^" »
o yea and sense you like leveling, quests and killing monsters... I don't see why you would have a problem doing it all over again to try a new build instead of just respecing.
Maybe because I would like to start a new class and not be forced to play one class over and over again just to increase my 'replayability'.
Either they will implement the same broken mechanic that lets you remake high-end chars within a day, or they come up with a different respec mechanic.
/discussion
Maybe because I would like to start a new class and not be forced to play one class over and over again just to increase my 'replayability'.
4) Once you have everything perfected, you will quit. I will quit. Anyone will quit. Thus, the faster you can attain perfection, the less replayability the game has. That is a simple, unarguable fact in any RPG game.
I don't agree with that. I enjoyed making characters I knew wouldn't be powerful or perfect, but I wanted to see if I could make them work.
Anyways the advantages to not having respecs are...you end up with multiple characters that you can just switch to when you feel like playing that type of character...as opposed to spending time, money, or whatever to respec when you want a different type of wizard. Then get screwed if you dont like it and want your old character back.
Also you get the experience of seeing how that type of character plays from start to finish. It is different to play the game start to finish with a shapeshift druid than an elemental druid. If you can respec then you don't know how one of them fares in the early-mid game.
What I will probably do.. lets see a case wizard.
I want to make one storm wizard, one arcane wizard and one conjuring wizard at least. They will all probably have somewhat different gear etc. So 3 chars / class is quite a lot of replayability imo.
And if there will be ladder seasons etc.. I will most likely have a char for the ladder and in the new ladder I have new char again. It could be the same class or new.
Respecing sucks....I really hope they dont get carried away with it. If it were up to me it wouldnt be in the game at all, but since it almost will be for sure, I can only hope it is VERY minimal....frikkin noobs use that stuff : P.
If there was no rushing in D2 like there is now, and leveling was restricted to areas and monsters at your level, I am sure that either the average player only had 1-3 characters or would have given anything for a respec system.
i dont think anyone can argue with that. Those that avoided being rushed had fewer characters, most of which (after the first few failures that it took to learn the game mechanics and late gear) use specific specs found in guides. A respec system would give players the chance to try new things that might not work that well in the end, but might aswell do.
not everyone had tendencies to hurt themselves by making weird specs in closed battle.net (aka not with trainers that gave you the chance to... yeah, respec) like myself. And some of the funniest moments around have been trying out these specs (the curser necro with Confuse/Iron Maiden was priceless).
Diablo (even the first and second ones) copied stuff from others. From monsters, to certain aspects of the game, to specific rules of the game. Same way that other games copied from Diablo after the success (hell, some even tried to be exactly like it).
Its not about not copying something, its about "adopting" something that suits the game and improves the gaming experience.
I dont like the idea of full respecs, at least not without it being limited to a degree, but i would certainly want to get back a talent point that i might have missclicked sometime. Even change a spec that i did on my first char that ended up being useless or deleted. Its a fine line and we'll have to wait till we have more to talk about before we judge.
For now i'm neutral.
As for miss clicks I think a simple system where you have like a short time period to undo what you just did but not enough time to test out the build.
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D2 didn't penalize anything. It allowed you to rush new characters to end-game levels every day. Just transfer gear, delete char, rush a new char in one day, transfer gear back. You can even keep your name and gear just loose your spec. So D3 will either allow people to rush like before (which would be horrible), or offer an alternative respec mechanic.
i thought of that before and thats what i thought would be the option, but for now theres nothing confirmed.
Having a limit to respecs would be the most appropriate solution cause especially on the first char (of each class) we tend to screw up the talens (in Diablo 2 the stats too) ending up having a useless character that ends up naked (since no matter how good items you might have, you cant deal damage without the appropriate skills). I think that was the idea of the synergies in Diablo 2, to "save" some of the screwed up efforts.
Still, till we know more we should lay back a bit.
If we need to have respecs, Id say make them a costly investment, and only once per character. This might sound a bit extreme, but something like the equivilent of 500g in WoW Pre TBC... could even have that amount double very time you respec for the rest of your characters on that account. It'll provide a gold sink too.
But anyway, I'll give it a chance, those are just my feelings towards it. However...
That's a good point, I guess I hadn't considered that since I wouldn't just quit.
Thats a good idea. Make it so the time period is just before you have actually used the skill in any way since you trained it.
Also I'm re-evaluating my previous statement about "respec should take just as long as leveling a character in D2". The difference would be in D2 you could have an elemental druid and a wolf druid then play whatever you feel like at the time. With D3 respec you would have a whim on wanting to play elemental...respec...then have a whim to play shapeshift...respec...etc. That would end up being more of a waste of time than D2, which was the problem they are trying to solve in the first place right???
if it takes months to level a d3 char I wont be buying the game lol
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I went through it in Diablo II (maybe it wasn't months). But anyway, I'm just saying that he made a good point. I'd be fine if there were respecs, I'd just prefer there not be respecs... I can live with it though.
yea im not 14 years old anymore ;( even though I wish I still way
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Wow, you REALLY don't get it, do you?
1) I think everyone wants to have a relatively powerful character. This means, your character is good compared to other players, not just compared to the monsters you're killing...because even a sucky char can kill monsters.
2) If a person were to specifically not use re-speccing, they would be at a disadvantage compared to other players -- everyone makes mistakes, so they would either have to live with a worse skill distribution, or start over, in which case they would have less XP. Thus, you cannot NOT use re-speccing if it is available if you care about having a relatively good character.
3) We also want to get as much gameplay out of it as possible. We want to enjoy the game for years to come, hopefully.
4) Once you have everything perfected, you will quit. I will quit. Anyone will quit. Thus, the faster you can attain perfection, the less replayability the game has. That is a simple, unarguable fact in any RPG game.
5) Re-speccing allows you to fix mistakes. This allows you to try things out WITHOUT having to create a new character, and it also allows you to fix any mistake you might make. If you dont NEED to create 4 characters and bring them to level 90 in order to pick your skills, then you WONT do it. Period. Therefore allowing to respec will PREVENT people from playing it that many times over. You also dont have to restart to fix a few skill points. Therefore, people WONT restart. They will just be done quicker, and quit quicker.
This couldn't be any closer to a mathematical proof that respeccing reduces replay value. And that is what is meant by "replayability." anything can be played, but nobody will do that if there is no VALUE in replaying.
lol your pretty much my hero right now :thumbsup:
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1) If you dont care about that stuff then none of this will really affect you.
2) If there is a respec system I am gonna use it even if I dont like it. Your right im not being forced to use it but it would be stupid not to if everyone else it. Yup im gonna have to join the band wagon.
3) If your just gonna be fighting monsters you prolly wont care about fixing a few minor stats to perfect your char.
4) Yea but you can strive for it. Your missing the point IDK care if they add a million quests and events because I wont participate in them. I play because the game mechanics are fun and so is pvp because a real life opponent is never the same.
So basically if your just about PvM and quests this wont affect you and you prolly should not care.
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/discussion
Maybe because I would like to start a new class and not be forced to play one class over and over again just to increase my 'replayability'.
lol um then make a new class? im confused now
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I don't agree with that. I enjoyed making characters I knew wouldn't be powerful or perfect, but I wanted to see if I could make them work.
Anyways the advantages to not having respecs are...you end up with multiple characters that you can just switch to when you feel like playing that type of character...as opposed to spending time, money, or whatever to respec when you want a different type of wizard. Then get screwed if you dont like it and want your old character back.
Also you get the experience of seeing how that type of character plays from start to finish. It is different to play the game start to finish with a shapeshift druid than an elemental druid. If you can respec then you don't know how one of them fares in the early-mid game.
I want to make one storm wizard, one arcane wizard and one conjuring wizard at least. They will all probably have somewhat different gear etc. So 3 chars / class is quite a lot of replayability imo.
And if there will be ladder seasons etc.. I will most likely have a char for the ladder and in the new ladder I have new char again. It could be the same class or new.
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
i dont think anyone can argue with that. Those that avoided being rushed had fewer characters, most of which (after the first few failures that it took to learn the game mechanics and late gear) use specific specs found in guides. A respec system would give players the chance to try new things that might not work that well in the end, but might aswell do.
not everyone had tendencies to hurt themselves by making weird specs in closed battle.net (aka not with trainers that gave you the chance to... yeah, respec) like myself. And some of the funniest moments around have been trying out these specs (the curser necro with Confuse/Iron Maiden was priceless).