Hell, you don't have to try to convince me dude, I'm all for it! :thumbsup:
I always hated item requirements, except Lvl reqs, which I think are necessary to keep the game balanced in Multiplayer. But why limit chars with attribute requirements when all you have to do is create armor with proper modifiers so to make it worth not wearing that uber set of full plate. I'm with you on this one... Baffles me why it hasn't been done previously.
I also agree with this one. However this kind of thing are not that simple.
A wiz can easilly get benefict from a barb Armor, if this armor give a huge Armor that make her survive. Also don't forget that tehres allways bonus that are universal for all the classes like HP, MF, FHR, All Skills, Walk Speed . . .
So a problem we may find is everyone seeking the same item (like shakos, maras, ages) because this item are better for everyone in everybuild.
So i hope they greatly reduce the importance of those ''universal'' bonuses . . . I would love to see +1 All Classes bonus removed.
I also agree with this one. However this kind of thing are not that simple.
A wiz can easilly get benefict from a barb Armor, if this armor give a huge Armor that make her survive. Also don't forget that tehres allways bonus that are universal for all the classes like HP, MF, FHR, All Skills, Walk Speed . . .
So a problem we may find is everyone seeking the same item (like shakos, maras, ages) because this item are better for everyone in everybuild.
So i hope they greatly reduce the importance of those ''universal'' bonuses . . . I would love to see +1 All Classes bonus removed.
Well see that's the thing. In every single game it's been this way. I was talking just now about MOnster hUNTER and how it succeeded making the perfect balance. What I didn't mention is at one point in the early versions of the game it had made an UBER armor from the hardest dragon with all the universal skills that is beneficial for about every single class. When that happened you really saw that everyone online started using it. When they patched it, they totally revamped it and chaged the stats and skills on that armor set to make it UBER only for a specific area of the game instead of a universal one.
This once again created a balance. So I think we really have our finger on the perpatrator right now.
UNIVERSAL MODIFIER BONUSES. (when implemented together on one item)
Godly armours/weapons with every bonus on them should not be made. Thus forcing the players to really mix and match, creating diversity. There can be universal bonuses implemented but they just have to be careful on not putting these together on specific items. Otherwise we will start seeing some more Mara's Kaleidoscope, Enigmas, COH, HOTO etc.
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Diablo 3, Hottest shit to happen to 21st Century Entertainment since Georges "Rush" St-Pierre.______________ --------~~Mattheo's Quote of the day~~---------
----------Brought to you by Diablofans.com Forums -------- Originally Posted by mattheo_majik
I LOVE being a SEX TON!!!
Godly armours/weapons with every bonus on them should not be made. Thus forcing the players to really mix and match, creating diversity. There can be universal bonuses implemented but they just have to be careful on not putting these together on specific items. Otherwise we will start seeing some more Mara's Kaleidoscope, Enigmas, COH, HOTO etc.
I agree with you matheo this is actually quite a good idea and it is always my fear in games that they do make uber armor, i hope that they dont. i like uniqueness in characters and i like playing the most unique character its gonna be a damn good game i know it.
Surprisingly enough, I agree with you mattheo. Items that are universally good to all classes regardless of build have no place in diablo. However, let me say that the other end of the spectrum is much, much worse. I do not want to see very many class specific items. That was yet another thing wrong with WoW.
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zsfh-maz of UsWest, 95 BvB king
"Because "half-assed" is not a "style"." - DragoonWraith, champion of character customization and legimitate art direction in D3
I do not want to see very many class specific items. That was yet another thing wrong with WoW.
That's just your opinion. I'd say opinion from someone who can't see the bigger picture. If you had played it to the point of understanding all aspects of the game design, you would know otherwise. Let's agree that one system works for Diablo and another for WoW. They represent two unrelated and nearly perfect systems.
Quote from "Equinox" »
I don't think we should see class specific items, but just more items that are powerful, but not as useful to one build as they are to another.
That's the general idea. In fact Bashiok has already confirmed that there are no class-specific items (except for certain weapon and offhand types). You, and you alone will make decisions regarding what is and what is not useful to you.
That's just your opinion. I'd say opinion from someone who can't see the bigger picture. If you had played it to the point of understanding all aspects of the game design, you would know otherwise.
I played WoW extensively both prior to and after the expansion, before I quit in disgust. AQ40 guild up to twin emps and TBC to Hydross (before he was nerfed. That was a long, long time ago, before SSC became noob farmland). I understand WoW itemization and game design intimately.
Criticism as harsh as mine is meaningless without perspective; for you to suggest that I lack that perspective is utterly ridiculous considering my experience with the game.
Regardless, we agree that class specific items have no place in diablo?
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zsfh-maz of UsWest, 95 BvB king
"Because "half-assed" is not a "style"." - DragoonWraith, champion of character customization and legimitate art direction in D3
Sounds like a hell of a long time to play the game before you suddenly quit in disgust.
The perspective doesn't lay in the fact that you have experience with something unless you are able to elaborate. It would take an insane person to not understand that removing class distinction from the drops would cause anything short of utter chaos and to nonchalantly claim that it is 'yet another thing that is wrong in WoW'. First of all, very little about WoW can be said to be outright wrong. The game has been up and running for quite a while and the engineers and designers who work on it have been polishing every single aspect of it non-stop since the first launch. If something had been wrong, it would be corrected along the way (and this game, has the biggest player base feedback that will report any oddities or wrongness that get repaired within days or weeks). I don't really need to know about for how long you have been playing it, when I hear things like 'BoP sucks!' or 'class-specific items are bad!' that to me sounds like someone who has tried WoW after playing D2 and not liking things that he found different all of a sudden. Someone who most certainly lacks perspective (or being able to see the big picture) either from the lack of experience or other reasons. Being biased due to sentimental reasons in your case perhaps.
Yes, we can agree that class-specific items do not have a place in the system that was set by D2 and that D3 will closely follow. Part for exotic weapons and perhaps class sets which makes it no different than how it was in D2 - and that was a pretty good system.
In fact, both systems have been proven to work, and I expect anyone to give it more then a second thought before categorically criticizing either.
Well, this is exactly what we are getting, no class specific. I believe the chief argument being that having a class specific item range, would once again encumber builds that are available for players. We say take off the Stat Requirements, when Class Requirements are doubly successful at totally limiting playing choices.
It would be senseless to replace one by the other. It's all about stats/mods on the items and having them dictate what build it is suitable for, then let the player sort it out. This way it won't be uber for everyone but will have it's uses in particular areas of the game. This is how it should be done, and I'm guessing how it will be done.
I take it everyone is at least in partial agreement with this argument. Now just to wait and see if it will be done properly. If it is, and Blizzard also stated that there will be a much larger inventory of items than even D2, then I'm really going to get psyched up about the sheer possibilities that D3 will offer to players.
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Diablo 3, Hottest shit to happen to 21st Century Entertainment since Georges "Rush" St-Pierre.______________ --------~~Mattheo's Quote of the day~~---------
----------Brought to you by Diablofans.com Forums -------- Originally Posted by mattheo_majik
I LOVE being a SEX TON!!!
I'm not completely against universal bonuses on items. I just feel they were used gratuitously in D2, especially post 1.10 with runewords and such. Implemented as merely good items instead of the best (hoto, enigma, etc) universal bonuses have a place because eventually you will want to give it up for something better. Especially if, as was speculated earlier, your equipment determines your stats. This would make it extremely difficult, due to stat distributions, to have the universally good items be end-game caliber equip; simply because its good for everybody means its not the best for any individual.
For instance say there is a +1 all skills amulet with +5 strength and +5 energy, and also a +1 wizard skills amulet with +10 energy. If you are a casting wizard it will be obvious which you will choose as mana is your most precious resource and most effective method of dealing death to demons and undead.
As with most things in life, quality of execution >= quality of idea.
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When killing two birds with one stone, there is a question that often floats in to my mind: Where the hell did I put that shotgun?
There is an important distinction between poetic justice and irony. Poetic justice kills a homicidal maniac with his own gun. Irony makes a homicidal maniac's gun drip water out the barrel.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Doppel does have a point, we kind of strayed away from the main topic of this discussion which is essentially about auto stats.
They did undermine the Attribute function, this I will agree to. However I think that it wasn't merely due to the fact that they gave bonuses to Attributes. The Attributes Requirements were part of the reason why players had to use items to wear items. If there would of been item requirements, people wouldn't have to wear the IK belt for STR. Wouldn't of had to wear Chains of Honor for STR, etc. Yes, of course in the end they would of probably had the same result, PUMP everything into Vitality and use items to boost the rest, but nevertheless, this is the outcome of many defective systems in D2, not just items. There are so many factors that go into the downfall of the Attribute system of D2, that makes it really hard to pinpoint the "tragic flaw".
Now that being said, we can't say oh, to hell with items since one of the core features of D2 are items. And likewise , we can't remove Attributes altogether. Any idea on how to balance this?
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Diablo 3, Hottest shit to happen to 21st Century Entertainment since Georges "Rush" St-Pierre.______________ --------~~Mattheo's Quote of the day~~---------
----------Brought to you by Diablofans.com Forums -------- Originally Posted by mattheo_majik
I LOVE being a SEX TON!!!
I think as long as they have a good amount of focus on items, runes and skills customization then it would work out with the auto-stats system, all we really need is a variety in those areas to really separate characters between players.
They also need to make sure that they balance things correctly.
That's the cookie cutter for nearly every build, save ones that require a bit of Dex for gear, and maybe a few points into Energy just for a slightly higher mana base?
No, I feel this auto-stat allocation is for the better. Let us not forget that we're able to "customize" our stats further with item enhancements. Diablo II was founded on the principal of itemization. Items combined with skills affect your character... your stats (to begin with) had a basic level of change on your character, but overall hindered it by allocating points into unneeded categories.
Now Blizzard has turned to a more "gear" dependent game that still has room for customization through enchantments and sockets. They've stated quite clearly that, with the return of Sockets and the introduction of Enchantments, your character will still be able to have a level of stat customization. That is where the gold-sink will be, and that is where your stat customization will be.
Please stop throwing a fit that the game is moving too close to "WoW".
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------------------------------------------- Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
i am quite baffled by the way blizzard and bashiok have misunderstood the issue with attributes
first of all, and i have heard this as a defense from multiple sources, some people are claiming that making attributes automatic does not enhance character customization because there is only one "optimal" assignment of attributes. therefore, they argue, the allotment of points can only hinder classes, but cannot promote diversity, and so making them automatic does not reduce diversity.
the question remains, why did they keep attributes in the game at all, if they were just going to be automatic? to make characters get stronger over time? characters are already going to get stronger over time for other reasons, such as improved items, new skills, runes, etc.
if attributes are increased irrespective of class for all characters, then the only effect they will have is enhancing the feeling of getting more powerful over time, without affecting diversity. but, i highly doubt that all classes will receive the same attribute bonuses per level. it will probably be something like, warriors gets +3 health, mages get +1 health and +3 mana per level, etc.
such a strategy clearly pigeonholes characters into being good or bad at specific things at high levels. i mean, if you're a mage, and they didnt give you shit HP...you cant really be anything but a mage.
secondly, bashiok responded to a lot of issues that he "thoght" were the main issues players had with auto stats. well, i think he missed numero uno: players want to plan out their character design, and they wont those plans to actually have an effect...so that they feel rewarded for designing a kickass character. assigning stat points was an excellent way to allow players to feel like they were in control of the design of their character. it allowed you to permanently distinguish your choices with a margin of intelligence, as opposed to pure time spent playing.
in the new system, there is essentially no way to "break" your character. that means you dont need to do any planning, there is no risk, and therefore no feeling of reward, because you cannot fail at making a good character if you just keep on playing. wheres the challenge in that??? sounds ike a game for kids
1) Skill runes
2) Diversification and expansion of equipment and the bonuses the equipment gives
3) More passive skills/spells than you can shake a stick at
4) Something else they've hinted at that will increase customization but haven't mentioned
Since the demo has been reported to have auto stats how would we change our mana/health value?
One idea i have is that the elixers of vitality and willpower will give us more health or mana. Lets say... 10hp per bottle. This would provide decent health but they'd have to be rarish to prevent over powering.
So this is just an idea ive got, post your opinions.
Defensive talents, gems for item sockets, items that favor mana/heath..
I honestly have no problem with auto stat assignment. I'm pretty used to it by now.
Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Baldur's Gate II, Icewind Dale II, Warcraft III, World of Warcraft.
In all of those games Warriors are top heavy. That is to say their stats are oriented around STR, DEX and CON (Constitution) or VIT. While the Mage is bottom heavy, with their stats being oriented around INT, WIS, SPR.
Yes I can see it makes it so you can't have a mage with lots of HP if that's what you want to do, but the reverse can be a pain. You finally beat the sorc Mana shield with the hundreds of thousands of Mana points because of insane high Energy (Magic or Int or whatever) and now are actually doing damage to them, but you can't kill them because they have an almost god-like amount of HP coz the maxed out VIT. That is annoying too, if not more so than not being able to add the stat point yourself.
I really don't mind that warriors get more STR than wizards and mages, while wizards and mages get more INT than warriors. Thats how mine, and many other's playing styles go anyways. We make a warrior who weilds a sodding great weapon that deals out huge amounts of damage and takes most of the brunt of the return fire, or we make the mage who unleashes torrents of deadly spells.
Being a role player helps I guess. You always see warriors as hulking death machines, while mages and spellcasters have more frail bodies but since they don't even have to get near you to do any damage to you, you don't mind. They spend all their time reading books and tomes and scrolls and hiding in rooms in towers studying things that arouse their interest.
Body building mages look weird. Except for Joneleth Irenicus. Oh but his voice helps too.
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I also agree with this one. However this kind of thing are not that simple.
A wiz can easilly get benefict from a barb Armor, if this armor give a huge Armor that make her survive. Also don't forget that tehres allways bonus that are universal for all the classes like HP, MF, FHR, All Skills, Walk Speed . . .
So a problem we may find is everyone seeking the same item (like shakos, maras, ages) because this item are better for everyone in everybuild.
So i hope they greatly reduce the importance of those ''universal'' bonuses . . . I would love to see +1 All Classes bonus removed.
Well see that's the thing. In every single game it's been this way. I was talking just now about MOnster hUNTER and how it succeeded making the perfect balance. What I didn't mention is at one point in the early versions of the game it had made an UBER armor from the hardest dragon with all the universal skills that is beneficial for about every single class. When that happened you really saw that everyone online started using it. When they patched it, they totally revamped it and chaged the stats and skills on that armor set to make it UBER only for a specific area of the game instead of a universal one.
This once again created a balance. So I think we really have our finger on the perpatrator right now.
UNIVERSAL MODIFIER BONUSES. (when implemented together on one item)
Godly armours/weapons with every bonus on them should not be made. Thus forcing the players to really mix and match, creating diversity. There can be universal bonuses implemented but they just have to be careful on not putting these together on specific items. Otherwise we will start seeing some more Mara's Kaleidoscope, Enigmas, COH, HOTO etc.
--------~~Mattheo's Quote of the day~~---------
----------Brought to you by Diablofans.com Forums --------
Originally Posted by mattheo_majik
I LOVE being a SEX TON!!!
I agree with you matheo this is actually quite a good idea and it is always my fear in games that they do make uber armor, i hope that they dont. i like uniqueness in characters and i like playing the most unique character its gonna be a damn good game i know it.
"Because "half-assed" is not a "style"." - DragoonWraith, champion of character customization and legimitate art direction in D3
That's the general idea. In fact Bashiok has already confirmed that there are no class-specific items (except for certain weapon and offhand types). You, and you alone will make decisions regarding what is and what is not useful to you.
I played WoW extensively both prior to and after the expansion, before I quit in disgust. AQ40 guild up to twin emps and TBC to Hydross (before he was nerfed. That was a long, long time ago, before SSC became noob farmland). I understand WoW itemization and game design intimately.
Criticism as harsh as mine is meaningless without perspective; for you to suggest that I lack that perspective is utterly ridiculous considering my experience with the game.
Regardless, we agree that class specific items have no place in diablo?
"Because "half-assed" is not a "style"." - DragoonWraith, champion of character customization and legimitate art direction in D3
The perspective doesn't lay in the fact that you have experience with something unless you are able to elaborate. It would take an insane person to not understand that removing class distinction from the drops would cause anything short of utter chaos and to nonchalantly claim that it is 'yet another thing that is wrong in WoW'. First of all, very little about WoW can be said to be outright wrong. The game has been up and running for quite a while and the engineers and designers who work on it have been polishing every single aspect of it non-stop since the first launch. If something had been wrong, it would be corrected along the way (and this game, has the biggest player base feedback that will report any oddities or wrongness that get repaired within days or weeks). I don't really need to know about for how long you have been playing it, when I hear things like 'BoP sucks!' or 'class-specific items are bad!' that to me sounds like someone who has tried WoW after playing D2 and not liking things that he found different all of a sudden. Someone who most certainly lacks perspective (or being able to see the big picture) either from the lack of experience or other reasons. Being biased due to sentimental reasons in your case perhaps.
Yes, we can agree that class-specific items do not have a place in the system that was set by D2 and that D3 will closely follow. Part for exotic weapons and perhaps class sets which makes it no different than how it was in D2 - and that was a pretty good system.
In fact, both systems have been proven to work, and I expect anyone to give it more then a second thought before categorically criticizing either.
It would be senseless to replace one by the other. It's all about stats/mods on the items and having them dictate what build it is suitable for, then let the player sort it out. This way it won't be uber for everyone but will have it's uses in particular areas of the game. This is how it should be done, and I'm guessing how it will be done.
I take it everyone is at least in partial agreement with this argument. Now just to wait and see if it will be done properly. If it is, and Blizzard also stated that there will be a much larger inventory of items than even D2, then I'm really going to get psyched up about the sheer possibilities that D3 will offer to players.
--------~~Mattheo's Quote of the day~~---------
----------Brought to you by Diablofans.com Forums --------
Originally Posted by mattheo_majik
I LOVE being a SEX TON!!!
For instance say there is a +1 all skills amulet with +5 strength and +5 energy, and also a +1 wizard skills amulet with +10 energy. If you are a casting wizard it will be obvious which you will choose as mana is your most precious resource and most effective method of dealing death to demons and undead.
As with most things in life, quality of execution >= quality of idea.
There is an important distinction between poetic justice and irony. Poetic justice kills a homicidal maniac with his own gun. Irony makes a homicidal maniac's gun drip water out the barrel.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
They did undermine the Attribute function, this I will agree to. However I think that it wasn't merely due to the fact that they gave bonuses to Attributes. The Attributes Requirements were part of the reason why players had to use items to wear items. If there would of been item requirements, people wouldn't have to wear the IK belt for STR. Wouldn't of had to wear Chains of Honor for STR, etc. Yes, of course in the end they would of probably had the same result, PUMP everything into Vitality and use items to boost the rest, but nevertheless, this is the outcome of many defective systems in D2, not just items. There are so many factors that go into the downfall of the Attribute system of D2, that makes it really hard to pinpoint the "tragic flaw".
Now that being said, we can't say oh, to hell with items since one of the core features of D2 are items. And likewise , we can't remove Attributes altogether. Any idea on how to balance this?
--------~~Mattheo's Quote of the day~~---------
----------Brought to you by Diablofans.com Forums --------
Originally Posted by mattheo_majik
I LOVE being a SEX TON!!!
They also need to make sure that they balance things correctly.
DII vs Nox
Nox wins...
Don't want that again.
STR: Enough for gear
DEX: none
VIT: Everything else
NRG: none
That's the cookie cutter for nearly every build, save ones that require a bit of Dex for gear, and maybe a few points into Energy just for a slightly higher mana base?
No, I feel this auto-stat allocation is for the better. Let us not forget that we're able to "customize" our stats further with item enhancements. Diablo II was founded on the principal of itemization. Items combined with skills affect your character... your stats (to begin with) had a basic level of change on your character, but overall hindered it by allocating points into unneeded categories.
Now Blizzard has turned to a more "gear" dependent game that still has room for customization through enchantments and sockets. They've stated quite clearly that, with the return of Sockets and the introduction of Enchantments, your character will still be able to have a level of stat customization. That is where the gold-sink will be, and that is where your stat customization will be.
Please stop throwing a fit that the game is moving too close to "WoW".
-------------------------------------------
Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
first of all, and i have heard this as a defense from multiple sources, some people are claiming that making attributes automatic does not enhance character customization because there is only one "optimal" assignment of attributes. therefore, they argue, the allotment of points can only hinder classes, but cannot promote diversity, and so making them automatic does not reduce diversity.
the question remains, why did they keep attributes in the game at all, if they were just going to be automatic? to make characters get stronger over time? characters are already going to get stronger over time for other reasons, such as improved items, new skills, runes, etc.
if attributes are increased irrespective of class for all characters, then the only effect they will have is enhancing the feeling of getting more powerful over time, without affecting diversity. but, i highly doubt that all classes will receive the same attribute bonuses per level. it will probably be something like, warriors gets +3 health, mages get +1 health and +3 mana per level, etc.
such a strategy clearly pigeonholes characters into being good or bad at specific things at high levels. i mean, if you're a mage, and they didnt give you shit HP...you cant really be anything but a mage.
secondly, bashiok responded to a lot of issues that he "thoght" were the main issues players had with auto stats. well, i think he missed numero uno: players want to plan out their character design, and they wont those plans to actually have an effect...so that they feel rewarded for designing a kickass character. assigning stat points was an excellent way to allow players to feel like they were in control of the design of their character. it allowed you to permanently distinguish your choices with a margin of intelligence, as opposed to pure time spent playing.
in the new system, there is essentially no way to "break" your character. that means you dont need to do any planning, there is no risk, and therefore no feeling of reward, because you cannot fail at making a good character if you just keep on playing. wheres the challenge in that??? sounds ike a game for kids
1) Skill runes
2) Diversification and expansion of equipment and the bonuses the equipment gives
3) More passive skills/spells than you can shake a stick at
4) Something else they've hinted at that will increase customization but haven't mentioned
Defensive talents, gems for item sockets, items that favor mana/heath..
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Baldur's Gate II, Icewind Dale II, Warcraft III, World of Warcraft.
In all of those games Warriors are top heavy. That is to say their stats are oriented around STR, DEX and CON (Constitution) or VIT. While the Mage is bottom heavy, with their stats being oriented around INT, WIS, SPR.
Yes I can see it makes it so you can't have a mage with lots of HP if that's what you want to do, but the reverse can be a pain. You finally beat the sorc Mana shield with the hundreds of thousands of Mana points because of insane high Energy (Magic or Int or whatever) and now are actually doing damage to them, but you can't kill them because they have an almost god-like amount of HP coz the maxed out VIT. That is annoying too, if not more so than not being able to add the stat point yourself.
I really don't mind that warriors get more STR than wizards and mages, while wizards and mages get more INT than warriors. Thats how mine, and many other's playing styles go anyways. We make a warrior who weilds a sodding great weapon that deals out huge amounts of damage and takes most of the brunt of the return fire, or we make the mage who unleashes torrents of deadly spells.
Being a role player helps I guess. You always see warriors as hulking death machines, while mages and spellcasters have more frail bodies but since they don't even have to get near you to do any damage to you, you don't mind. They spend all their time reading books and tomes and scrolls and hiding in rooms in towers studying things that arouse their interest.
Body building mages look weird. Except for Joneleth Irenicus. Oh but his voice helps too.