For example, it would be nice if my Sorceress could master more than just Blizzard and Ice Blast. Synergies were nice at first, but there could be better ways to make a skill more powerful. Maybe items with "+n% cold skill damage" could be more common. Or maybe the required level to add to a skill could go up by 2 instead of 1, and the magnitude could be exponential.
And on a separate note, I'm glad that not all skill have a max of 20. There's no reason to add more than 1 point to skills like Teleport, which just reduces the mana required each level, or Static Field, which just increases the radius each level. No more wasted skill points.
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Please don't sign that ridiculous art direction petition. I've waited eight long years for Diablo III, not for another Diablo II expansion. And shut up about the Necromancer being gone. Diablo II didn't have any of the same classes as the first game (except for Sorcerer/Sorceress).
i'd rather not make it to where fire bolt does more damage to meteor.. that will be insane.
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We gotta make a change...
It's time for us as a people to start makin' some changes.
Let's change the way we eat, let's change the way we live
and let's change the way we treat each other.
You see the old way wasn't working so it's on us to do
what we gotta do, to survive. Tupac Shakur
100% Legit baal runners SICK_Bambi 93 Barb (46th barb)
SICK_Paladin 95 Necromancer (12th necro)
SICK_ferret 95 Assassin (10th sin) ~~us West Ladder~~
Have to agree with doppel on the subject of synergies...I remember the first time i played diablo 2 LOD my friend rushed me to hell on a sin and my stat points were everywhere...i played for 2 days and quit. Had no idea what i was doing and he just kept putting me on baal runs like "cmon man you gotta do this to be good". Kept calling me and bugging me...about 6 months later i made a new character on a different realm didnt tell him about it. Actually played through the game the way its meant to, got a better understanding of the skills. Absolutely loved how the synergies worked there and certainly wouldnt mind them returning to D3...once again this is another one of those touchy subjects. It seems synergies are a love/hate area of discussion.
Seth
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I understand the mechanics very well. Part of what I'm saying is that it's pointless to have useless skills at all. Like Terror and Confuse. The only reason to even put one point into those skills is so you can unlock useful ones like Life Tap and Lower Resist. I don't see what's fun about maxing 10 skills you don't even use, which you have to do to really max the good ones.
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Please don't sign that ridiculous art direction petition. I've waited eight long years for Diablo III, not for another Diablo II expansion. And shut up about the Necromancer being gone. Diablo II didn't have any of the same classes as the first game (except for Sorcerer/Sorceress).
Well its all about being diverse to reach the penacle of strength in whatever skill tree you wish to excell in. Otherwise it would just be i think i'll max this....then i'll max that next i suppose...mmm i really dont care i guess i'll max this skill for kicks'n'giggles. Where is the strategy in that? Without synergies the skill system will be very bland and unintuitive. I've played many games that are just simple skill fests with no synergies and all of them fell short. Got no feeling of satisfaction putting points here and there and pretty much added points to this and that on a whim. Synergies were one of the best improvements of d2 IMO.
Seth
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All i wish is that in D3 there is more then 2 spells that you will use when you're high lvl, and not just WW with the barbarian, orb with sorc, hammer with pally, etc, etc, etc...
Well given that when the game was released i think blizzard is more than capable of bringing a whole new (and awesome) synergy system to the table. They have the experience and the cash to throw at d3 to make it absolutely wonderful all around. I understand what you are saying if a guy wanted to specifically use like inferno it would be redundant as the logical thing to max after that would be something it is a synergy to...thus allowing you to do much more dmg with the latter skill. In the end your not using the skill you wished to use :P. This is something that given enough thought could be easily fixed and as I said earlier blizzard has the resources and the know how to execute it well.
Seth
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I don't mind synergies per se but they should not be exclusive. They should be more complex, and more subtle, so as not to cause "ahh, frenzy is the lowest skill over here, and it is empowered by double throw and taunt... let's max those! and for the rest we'll have like axe mastery and summat"
We already know there will be 1/5/10/20 rank skills so I'm pretty sure there won't be a synergy system because of it, which is great because it adds versatility since you will be able to use many skills effectively rather than just spam your main skill for the whole game and waste most of your skill points on some useless synergies to pump up your damage output.
Making skill damage dependent on stats rather than other skills would be a way smarter approach and that's what I think they'll do this time around.
I'm almost certain there will be some form of synergy system, only better balanced with less "useless" synergies and more potential of using vastly different combination of abilities, atleast thats what i hope, amongst other improvements.
I don't see how can they implement any kind of synergy system if they keep the 1/5/10/20 rank system. The closest thing I can think of is to put a bunch of mastery skills but I highly doubt they will (they said in one of the panels that that kind of skill is boring and they are just looking to make a bunch of cool skills for each character)
As I said before, making stats determine the damage rather than synergy skills is way more efficient, that way you'll have a lot more skills to use in different situations and also you'll actually have to decide which stat to pump (damage vs life) instead of just going enough str for equipment, 0 dex (or enough for max block), 0 energy and rest into vit.
edit: The synergy i always liked, and i think is a good example of how fun synergies could be, is found in the "dream sorceress" built. You synergize your lightning mastery and with the help of the dream aura you are given you do enhanced lighning damage with a weapon of choice (i think it was passion wich gave the zeal attack, right?). Now i heard many times what the point is in putting points into teleport or telekinesis, well there is a huge point in putting points into those skills, aswell as putting points into warmth, wich are all seen to be "pretty useless skills". Thats just one example of how synergies make sense and could put a whole new light on "useless skills" or any skill for that matter. To make the built even more powerful, you could then put more points into "useless" skills, like firemastery (wich alone would be useless, if it wasn't for combining that with enchant, wich gets synergized by warmth, wich gives a huge magmaregeneration bonus to substain energy shield wich gets bonusses from telekinesis and bonusses from all plus lightning gear, wich boosts your lighning damage) or other possibilities of trying to make a strong enough fireball, wich will never be fully synergized, so that you have to weight the plusses of trying to create a stronger fireball instead of more lighning damage, or firedamage, or the defense from energy shield, or fastness of teleport wich becomes essential to survival, and so on. This to me was what made the complexity of it all so enjoyable.
I am not familiar with this build but sound like a holy shock zealot that deals a lot less damage. I think you misunderstood the concept of a useless synergy, Telekinesis IS a useless synergy since you are just pumping points into it so that your energy shield absorbs more damage, you are not actually using it. Warmth doesn't count as a synergy, it's just a passive skill you need to make your build work. Also you forgot to explain how pumping teleport is not a waste of skill points.
Quote from "Doppelganger" »
I don't understand all of the "efficiency" arguments, its not whats efficient that makes the gameplay, it can make it "more efficient", but it isn't a substitute for any depth in gamedesign. Not saying no to stats playing a more vital role btw, i'm all for that idea. (because it adds something to the game, instead of substracting something)
You misunderstood the efficiency concept too, what I mean by that is that with the synergy system you are forced to pick only one skill as your main and use most of your remaining points in skills that you will never use so that your main skill will be powerful enough to deal with monsters in higher difficulties, while with the stat system you can choose to max any combination of skills since their damage are not dependent on each other. This means that you won't have to continously spam your main skill again and again, you will have at least 3 or 4 main skills that deal good damage which adds a lot of versatility to every possible build and overall fun to the game.
All i wish is that in D3 there is more then 2 spells that you will use when you're high lvl, and not just WW with the barbarian, orb with sorc, hammer with pally, etc, etc, etc...
I'm a druid, I use Firestorm, Fissure, Armageddon, Cyclone Armor, Summon Grizzly, and Summon Oak Sage.
For Barbarian you have Cry Barbs, Conc Barbs, Berzerker Barbs, WW Barbs, and weapons of variation. This goes on with each class.
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It's the decisions you make when you have no time to make them that define who you are.
I think a good way to make skills affect others in a cool way would be to make them affect just about everything...
Create synergies that will raise a part of a skill, but decrease another. For example, have a skill that would synergize an increase in damage, but a decrease in accuracy, so you would have to be careful how you build.
Also... I'd like to see skills "grow." One would think that a spell would change the better you got at it. For example, having 1 skill point in Whirlwind would make a Barbarian do a sloppy Whirlwind - less hits, looks sloppy. The more you master it the better it looks, hits, etc.
Just an idea, but I thought it would add a positive dynamic.
Synergies made diablo 2 100000000% better. For one, your builds had 100% more depth, and did not consist of "Ok, if i somehow bs my way to 30 withoit spending very many points, i can max Orb, Meteor, thunderstorm, then teleport/manashield. ez."
Instead, it consists of a much more balanced system. Take a barb for example. B4 synergies a barb build pretty much consisted of 20 points into main attack, 20 points into bo, 20 into shout, 20 into weapon mastery, then rest into passives of your choice. Now, post Synergies, almost every barb (even in the same build) are different. To take it even deeper, take a Frenzy barb for example. Now, you gotta max Frenzy (ofc) but from there every frenzy barb will be different. One will max bo, shout, weapon mastery and the double swing synergy for an easier start. Another barb decides instead of double swing he will max out Berserk for more than one possible damage type. Then another will decide bo/Shout is not worth it, and from the get go will ignore shout and maxx out two/three synergies for max damage while losing survivability.
Realistically, synergies made d2 skill system. I am going to assume you have not played d2 pre-synergies aswell. Every single person was the same cookie cutter "maxxed all 30 lvl skills" bs. There was no build originality, etc.
I don't like the synergies.
Necro: If you are bone well not much more points you can spend. I had a friend at 90 level he didn't even have any curses or summons since all points went to bone.
Poison necro does get some summons and curses at least, this is good thing since poisons were quite useless.
Summon necro worked before synergies too.
One thing doesn't exist anymore. Iron Maiden CE build. I had one before synergies. Max IM to kill some monsters then amp and CE. Also had pretty high lower res and some 5+ revives. This kind of 3 tree builds can't really be done anymore and solo in 8 player. You are fine with it when partying.
Sorc. This is what I hate most with the synergies. All my points go to damage and close to nothing into utility.I play mostly classic so this is what I had in my 1.09 90level sorc. Energyshield 10, max static, max orb, cold mastery 18, max warmth. If I'd make this now I would have to place 20 points to telekines and 20 ice bolt if I wanted to use synergies. Both of these skills are so useless. I would never use ice bolt over orb, and telekines only adds usefullness of ES. If you want energyshield instead of 10-20 points in it you are basically forced in to 30-40 points. So I'm having serious problems to figure out my next sorc. I'm planning orb+firewall, thats 40 points. Do I take ice bolt or more static. Should I even bother with energyshield cuz I don't have points to telekines. Sorc pretty much became a 1 skill wonder class. I remember in LOD there was a lot of different builds. CB+hydra worked, CB+orb, cb+meteor and whatnot. Hydraorb,meteor,firewallorb, novaorb also 3-tree builds worked nice with synergies you have 3 elementals but all deal sucky damage. Most I see now are meteorb, blizzard, blizzard fireball. Thats about it, some few are lightning sorcs with a secondary I don't know of.
It was a nice idea in the synergies but they really didn't figure out everything. First why did they increase monsters health? Some skills are so gimped now. All physical classes have trouble having enough power in hell mode because most of their skills didn't get any synergies. So they should have kept the monsters like they were in 1.09 and just lower the spell damage of the skills that would gain synergies so that with synergies you would get to same level of damage as before. Also who would like to make zeal pala when hammerding kills 100x faster and it is also a lot safer when you don't have to be in melee.
I'm pretty sure D3 will have a lot different skill system than D2 had. They have learned about D2's flawed skill system that didn't really work so well. So in D3 they won't need synergies to make lower level skills usefull.
The thing I liked about the synergy system was that it enabled you to utilize a larger array of skills than just the top ones of each tree. I really got sick of seeing every barb use WhirlWind, Every sorc use frozen orb, and so on. I really could care less if they keep synergies or don't in the direct attachment to the idea. What I do care about is the fact that more skills should be viable end game then just the ones that take the most time to reach. Synergies are a way of creating diversity within the build orders and for that I do greatly appreciate them. If there is a better system, by all means use it, if not, keep synergies for that reason.
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Absolutely, they should make all skills equally useful if its indeed one that you wish to focus on. Synergies should serve to augment your abilities in whatever your choice is...not take away your interests in one skill because the numbers on a latter one looks better. If the numbers make one skill redundant and another much better even though you particularly dont like the way the other looks or feels really gives you a bum factor while playing through the game.
Seth
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And on a separate note, I'm glad that not all skill have a max of 20. There's no reason to add more than 1 point to skills like Teleport, which just reduces the mana required each level, or Static Field, which just increases the radius each level. No more wasted skill points.
i'd rather not make it to where fire bolt does more damage to meteor.. that will be insane.
It's time for us as a people to start makin' some changes.
Let's change the way we eat, let's change the way we live
and let's change the way we treat each other.
You see the old way wasn't working so it's on us to do
what we gotta do, to survive.
Tupac Shakur
100% Legit baal runners
SICK_Bambi 93 Barb (46th barb)
SICK_Paladin 95 Necromancer (12th necro)
SICK_ferret 95 Assassin (10th sin)
~~us West Ladder~~
Seth
Seth
Post-Synergies D2 >>>>>> Pre-Synergies D2
gamma11 > east
Seth
Making skill damage dependent on stats rather than other skills would be a way smarter approach and that's what I think they'll do this time around.
I don't see how can they implement any kind of synergy system if they keep the 1/5/10/20 rank system. The closest thing I can think of is to put a bunch of mastery skills but I highly doubt they will (they said in one of the panels that that kind of skill is boring and they are just looking to make a bunch of cool skills for each character)
As I said before, making stats determine the damage rather than synergy skills is way more efficient, that way you'll have a lot more skills to use in different situations and also you'll actually have to decide which stat to pump (damage vs life) instead of just going enough str for equipment, 0 dex (or enough for max block), 0 energy and rest into vit.
I am not familiar with this build but sound like a holy shock zealot that deals a lot less damage. I think you misunderstood the concept of a useless synergy, Telekinesis IS a useless synergy since you are just pumping points into it so that your energy shield absorbs more damage, you are not actually using it. Warmth doesn't count as a synergy, it's just a passive skill you need to make your build work. Also you forgot to explain how pumping teleport is not a waste of skill points.
You misunderstood the efficiency concept too, what I mean by that is that with the synergy system you are forced to pick only one skill as your main and use most of your remaining points in skills that you will never use so that your main skill will be powerful enough to deal with monsters in higher difficulties, while with the stat system you can choose to max any combination of skills since their damage are not dependent on each other. This means that you won't have to continously spam your main skill again and again, you will have at least 3 or 4 main skills that deal good damage which adds a lot of versatility to every possible build and overall fun to the game.
I'm a druid, I use Firestorm, Fissure, Armageddon, Cyclone Armor, Summon Grizzly, and Summon Oak Sage.
For Barbarian you have Cry Barbs, Conc Barbs, Berzerker Barbs, WW Barbs, and weapons of variation. This goes on with each class.
It's the decisions you make when you have no time to make them that define who you are.
Create synergies that will raise a part of a skill, but decrease another. For example, have a skill that would synergize an increase in damage, but a decrease in accuracy, so you would have to be careful how you build.
Also... I'd like to see skills "grow." One would think that a spell would change the better you got at it. For example, having 1 skill point in Whirlwind would make a Barbarian do a sloppy Whirlwind - less hits, looks sloppy. The more you master it the better it looks, hits, etc.
Just an idea, but I thought it would add a positive dynamic.
Synergies made diablo 2 100000000% better. For one, your builds had 100% more depth, and did not consist of "Ok, if i somehow bs my way to 30 withoit spending very many points, i can max Orb, Meteor, thunderstorm, then teleport/manashield. ez."
Instead, it consists of a much more balanced system. Take a barb for example. B4 synergies a barb build pretty much consisted of 20 points into main attack, 20 points into bo, 20 into shout, 20 into weapon mastery, then rest into passives of your choice. Now, post Synergies, almost every barb (even in the same build) are different. To take it even deeper, take a Frenzy barb for example. Now, you gotta max Frenzy (ofc) but from there every frenzy barb will be different. One will max bo, shout, weapon mastery and the double swing synergy for an easier start. Another barb decides instead of double swing he will max out Berserk for more than one possible damage type. Then another will decide bo/Shout is not worth it, and from the get go will ignore shout and maxx out two/three synergies for max damage while losing survivability.
Realistically, synergies made d2 skill system. I am going to assume you have not played d2 pre-synergies aswell. Every single person was the same cookie cutter "maxxed all 30 lvl skills" bs. There was no build originality, etc.
Necro: If you are bone well not much more points you can spend. I had a friend at 90 level he didn't even have any curses or summons since all points went to bone.
Poison necro does get some summons and curses at least, this is good thing since poisons were quite useless.
Summon necro worked before synergies too.
One thing doesn't exist anymore. Iron Maiden CE build. I had one before synergies. Max IM to kill some monsters then amp and CE. Also had pretty high lower res and some 5+ revives. This kind of 3 tree builds can't really be done anymore and solo in 8 player. You are fine with it when partying.
Sorc. This is what I hate most with the synergies. All my points go to damage and close to nothing into utility.I play mostly classic so this is what I had in my 1.09 90level sorc. Energyshield 10, max static, max orb, cold mastery 18, max warmth. If I'd make this now I would have to place 20 points to telekines and 20 ice bolt if I wanted to use synergies. Both of these skills are so useless. I would never use ice bolt over orb, and telekines only adds usefullness of ES. If you want energyshield instead of 10-20 points in it you are basically forced in to 30-40 points. So I'm having serious problems to figure out my next sorc. I'm planning orb+firewall, thats 40 points. Do I take ice bolt or more static. Should I even bother with energyshield cuz I don't have points to telekines. Sorc pretty much became a 1 skill wonder class. I remember in LOD there was a lot of different builds. CB+hydra worked, CB+orb, cb+meteor and whatnot. Hydraorb,meteor,firewallorb, novaorb also 3-tree builds worked nice with synergies you have 3 elementals but all deal sucky damage. Most I see now are meteorb, blizzard, blizzard fireball. Thats about it, some few are lightning sorcs with a secondary I don't know of.
It was a nice idea in the synergies but they really didn't figure out everything. First why did they increase monsters health? Some skills are so gimped now. All physical classes have trouble having enough power in hell mode because most of their skills didn't get any synergies. So they should have kept the monsters like they were in 1.09 and just lower the spell damage of the skills that would gain synergies so that with synergies you would get to same level of damage as before. Also who would like to make zeal pala when hammerding kills 100x faster and it is also a lot safer when you don't have to be in melee.
I'm pretty sure D3 will have a lot different skill system than D2 had. They have learned about D2's flawed skill system that didn't really work so well. So in D3 they won't need synergies to make lower level skills usefull.
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
Nothing happens to you, but everything happens for you.
Seth