It's my hope that they will not make the same mistake again and create such overpowered runewords. Chars where much more diversed before them, the richest had arcain or tal armor or eth skulders and a bit later even upg perfect viper and that's just for sorc. All were perfectly valid armors. Those that weren't as rich, had normal skulders, normal vipers and so on and so forth.
Yup. Back in the day. Now if they changed the current way D2 is going...
Quote from "cbr" »
So you agree that right now it doesn't look promising. Great.
What you saw was a demo level. I highly doubt it's even going to be in the final product. They may use the introduction to cain little video but I doubt they will use the level itself.
Quote from "cbr" »
Who gives you the right to tell me what's playing the game for me? If I like wasting hours on the trade channel spamming messages who are you to say I shouldn't or that I'm not playing the game?
You can play it however you like. Just, to me, playing usually means being in the game, not spamming a chat channel. But it's completely up to you. Most of the rest of us though would rather be playing in the game, from what I can tell...
Quote from "cbr" »
They don't have to sit around do nothing. They don't discover there's a dupping any faster than they do now. Back when I was playing it took them about 3 days to discover the dupping and how it worked and to patch it up. So those are 3 days in which the hack will work, do you think 3 days of 24/7 gold duping is ok?
So one guy makes a hack and uses it for 72 hours. You find out as fast as blizz, sometimes not even that fast. It will hurt the system, but if the system is made properly, the pseudo-gold will be drained relatively quickly...
Quote from "cbr" »
Glad we agree on something, bind is indeed a terrible idea.
Fuck yes. I hate it. Hate it hate it hate it. Oh, and hate it. Worst idea ever.
Oh, and I hate it.
(By the way, I HATE BoP/BoE!!!)
Quote from "cbr" »
Diablo 3 won't be bigger, they already said it will have about the same size as Diablo 2, so if you're expecting something like a jump from D1 to D2 you'll be dissapointed.
In gameplay I do. In length, I don't.
Quote from "cbr" »
Making it better means that you keep what's good and change what's bad, at the moment all I'm seeing is they are chaging what for me and many others thought was good. As such we aren't seeing the improvement, they are lagging behind on the "doing it better".
Well, alot of people think that beating people up for there lunch money is fun. Alot of people think that beating there wives is fun. Alot of people think that raping little kids is fun. What's fun for a few is not fun for the majority. I know you hate this but if 10 people want one thing and 2 want another, the 10 people will usually get there way.
Quote from "cbr" »
One idea? Which one of the ideas that currenctly we know will be implemented isn't from wow and wasn't in D2? Is it the respecc? Or perhaps the gold based economy and the probably AH that goes along with it? Perhaps is the probable removal of PK, you tell me which one of them isn't in WoW?
Gold based economy was in Diablo 1.
Quote from "cbr" »
Good items aren't useful? o...k...
Good items are good, but godly items are gawdly. If you have a good item and I have a gg item do you think I would want to trade my item I spent hours to find the marterials for and spent a fortune to craft for the item you found off that boss like it was nothing?
I like the idea of an Auction House. However, the WoW type Auction House would not work in D3 because there is no real economy in the diablo series... SoJs mean mroe then gold.
Thats why I present to you the idea of a Barter House. An area, which can be implimented into the game however Blizzard sees fit, in which Items can be put up for sale/auction for gold and/or other items. The way this would work is every tiem someone enters an item, that item is then recorded in a data base and saved even after the item has been traded. This data base is always accessible to players via a window in the Barter House and when you would like to trade an item for another item you simply open the data base up, search for the item you would like, find it and click a link which then links the item to your auction.
For instance, you want to trade Sword A for 5xRing B. You put Sword A up in the barter house and in the auction creation window you have a both a gold section and an item section. You click the brows database link in the item section. Search for Ring B. Find it and link it to your Auction and put in the you want ringb x5. And create the auction.
First post here, and I'm diving right into a controversial topic. Here is my vision for Diablo 3's trading system.
An Auction House or perhaps merely a centralized 'shop' function (like an auction house, except there's no bidding, just set prices) would be a huge boon to the series.
The worst thing about trading in Diablo 2 was that it hinged on the incredibly-inefficient barter system. There is a good reason that only the most primitive cultures still use it in the real world--it sucks.
The biggest and most obvious flaws of the system are needing to each have what the other needs (which is very difficult to do in a large population), and the differing values of goods and services. I'll give a real-life example: let's say I lived in a barter system economy, and I was a doctor who needed a small carpentry job done (a new chair, whatever). All I have to offer are medical services. Two problems immediately emerge:
1. Medical services are worth more overall than carpentry, so it would be difficult to negotiate a fair trade, as even the smallest 'unit' of medical services may easily be worth more than the small amount of carpentry I need done.
2. What if I can't find any carpenters who need medical services, either because they're healthy or because they've already got them somewhere else?
I'm screwed. However, if we add a universal unit of value (money), the problem immediately vanishes. Firstly, both my services and carpenters' services now can be assigned a distinct, absolute value that's easy to keep track of. Secondly, since you now have this unit of value, you can use it to be the 'middleman' in any and all transactions where the #2 problem would occur. So what if a carpenter doesn't need my medical services? I can pay him the money I earned from people who DID need medical services, and then he can use that money to go get what HE needs instead of medical services.
Another problem specific to Diablo 2 that makes it even worse than the real-life system is that, without using some outside tool like a trade forum, you can only trade with a few people at a time. And even WITH a forum, only a limited number of users will see your trade bait because threads get pushed down, not everyone's online while it's near the top, etc.
So, if you want effective trading, there needs to be an established (not improvised like 'high runes') solid unit of value in Diablo 3--that's where currency comes in. But then again, even most of the people who would argue against something like an auction house know this already, because they've INVENTED currencies in Diablo 2 when they discovered that gold is too common for them to be able to use it to trade for any of the really rare stuff, since they can't hold enough gold for it to be a fair trade. Stones of Jordan were a currency for a while, and currently the currency is 'high runes'. Another example is d2jsp, a forum which basically creates its own artificial currency and injects it into the game, for use by anyone who participates in the forum. So, without these people realizing it, they DO want a good currency system, and not pure barter.
As far as the currency system itself, from the little I've seen/heard of WoW (don't even go down that road, I downloaded the .iso's on one occasion and tried playing on a really crappy private server with like 5% of the functionality, and that only lasted a couple of days--I never played 'for real', even on a trial account), their system is a great idea--you have graduating types of currency (copper/silver/gold or however it's actually set up) so that the numbers are never ridiculous ("selling Mara's for 37,000,000,000 gold"), just as a convenience. This is only a side note, though, because as long as there is a balance struck between rarity of currency and the overall price of things, it'll work just fine--players will adapt quickly.
So, what's better as a means to trade, a 'mall' where sellers set static prices, or an auction house? Frankly, the former would slowly become the latter anyway. An auction house immediately strikes the balance between supply and demand (bidders will bid up to what something's worth (to them)), while a 'mall' does it more slowly (sellers will manually adjust prices based on what how easily things sell at previously-set/seen prices). So, I say why wait to have a balance and just go straight for an auction house--it works for eBay. In either case, it should be centralized, meaning not confined to a game. It should also have a good solid search feature attached to it--imagine how nice it would be to be able to see the offers of everyone who is trading a perfect Mara's on b.net at the same time, and being able to compare their offers.
Of course, item for item trading shouldn't be FORBIDDEN at all. In fact, I could envision a really robust trade system where there is an auction hall (where it's always auctioning off item(s) for currency), AND a 'mall' specifically for item/item trading. You could set the latter up in such a way that doing trades like these is possible to automate:
Trading: Mara's Kaleidoscope (you can mouse over it to see all of its stats just like a normal item you just picked up)
Seeking: Bul Kathos' Wedding Bang with minimum of 4% life steal (you could be allowed to set a minimum/maximum/exact value for any stat(s) on the item so that only people with items high-end enough to make the trade fair for you would be able to complete it)
In addition, throw in a toggle to either let offers sit, so that you can come back and choose the one you like the best (just like leaving offers in chat messages in Diablo 2 while you idle in a game, except a lot more efficient) or reject them all, in the case you get a ton of answers and decide you 'under-charged' (:P), or to take the first offer you get that meets the conditions you set, if you want to 'move' something quickly, or let's say you're trading for an item that has no variable mods, so you know all of the responses to the trade are going to be the same anyway.
I have more tumbling around in my head, but I'll stop there. I think these ideas would turn the trading system from something annoying into something very practical, useful, and user-friendly. Gone would be the days of spending all day making games to try and unload an above-average-but-not-godly item on someone who needs it (hard enough to find), AND who has something you need to offer in trade. And good riddance to that, I say. All of the players who thought that part was fun were either kidding themselves (because most of them used improvised currencies anyway, like 'high runes') or masochists. I am neither, so bring on the improved trade system.
Perhaps, but I think it's more wishful thinking on your part. It doesn't really matter anyway since that demo level wasn't tweaked to drop more gold. The only tweak in that level was that trapped chest which dropped all the items and they pointed it out. It's safe to assume the other drops were normal drops.
Well, it's still pre-alpha so they may change it. Also, they didn't say that the chest was the ONLY tweak, or at least I didn't hear them say that.
Quote from "cbr" »
So because most of you would rather do something it means you should remove what is fun for me? Perhaps they should remove PvP also since most people don't PvP either, while we're at it we should remove MF since most people don't mf, they just randomly play the game. Lets do that because the people that do them don't form a majority. Wonderful.
I never said take it out. If you read my posts, when I first posted on this thread, I said I'd like to see both a trading area ala D1/2 style and a new and improved AH in D3, catering to both groups. I doubt many would use the old style when the new one is out, but with both out, everyone would be happy. This is one of those things that could make both sides happy. (Sorta.)
Quote from "cbr" »
One guy? At what point in D2 history did only just 1 guy ever dupe? A dupe program screads like wild fire, it always had and nothing will change that.
One guy makes the dupe. Unless you have a team working to make the dupe, one guy makes it. He would also, most likely, be the first to test it out. Yes, in D2 they spread like wildfire, but hopefully in D3, they will be better prepared. (I'd like to see perma-IP ban for dupes, and hacks in general, rather then just perma-cdkey ban in D3...)
Quote from "cbr" »
Lets for a moment assume that only one guy manages to dupe for 3 days nonstop gold, and he buys everything on the market with that gold. With that sudden influx of gold, how much do you think that gold will end up being worth? Two things will happen, people that will still accept to trade in gold but at massively inflated prices, it's what happens with all inflation, or people will refuse to trade their items for gold period, which will lead to gold being worth even less, since any currency is only as good as people are willing to trade for it. If traders stop trading for it than any currency is worthless.
Lets take another scenario. I make 5 thousand Ber runes. I then take it into the market. Same thing will happen. Market will crash just as bad, the difference is that people will still keep ber runes, they won't keep gold. The gold is then tossed away, and thus gold returns to its original value, via both the masses collective ignorance and the massive numbers of gold sinks that will hopefully be implimented.
Quote from "cbr" »
You lost me here.
In the length of the game, I expect it to be the same length time wise. In gameplay, I expect it to be a huge gigantic leap. My appologies for the misscommunication.
Quote from "cbr" »
Do I really even need to address your strawman argument? I think you know what's wrong with this yourself.
Well, it's the same logic, isn't it? A few people like it, right?
Quote from "cbr" »
Oh? Perhaps you have a warped view of democracy, please check up on civil liberies in the USA. Especially the black movement, you might discover they aren't a majority and still managed to get equal rights. Democracy isn't mob rule, it's the rule of the majority while protecting that the minorities rights.
First, America is NOT a Democracy, it's a Republic. Giant difference there. But that's niether here nor there.
Second, yes, the African American movement has gone well. It is the poster child of the minorities. But the African American movement and the Femenist movement are exceptions to the rules. Most people distrust gays. Most people thing athiests are evil. Most Americans have the mentality that if you arn't like them, then you are evil and wrong. I am very proud of the African American movement and the Femenist movement, but, and it kills me to say this about this country that I love, but those are the exceptions, not the rules.
Quote from "cbr" »
Right now you are basically proposing is mob rule, congratulations for stepping back from 200 years of democratic changes.
Not really, just feel that it would be silly to cater to five percent that want a prettier version of Diablo 2 when the other 95 percent want a true sequel. Not refrencing you, just speaking in general.
Quote from "cbr" »
And it was so good they felt the need to implement a worse system where gold was worthless?
Diablo 1 was a complete fuck up when it comes to economy. Blizzard was young and didn't know how to stop dupes. But it's still basically a gold driven economy. A shitty gold driven economy, but it was a gold driven economy. Thus you can not say it was ripped off WoW, as it has history in the Diablo universe as well. Not a good history at all, but history none-the-less.
And I don't want a copy of Diablo 1's or Diablo 2's economy, and I don't want a copy of WoW's economy. I want a new economy that is effectively taking the best from all three economies.
Quote from "cbr" »
More likely than to trade it to the other 4999 suckers that sold all their items for gold and wasted all their gold on crafting. IT doesn't even matter if you trade it for mine or not, I am richer than other 4999. As long as I'm richer than 95% of the people that play the game I think i'll be fine, I don't mind the other 5% that are richer than me, it gives me something to strive for, to match them and pass them.
I have nothing to say about this. You completely missed my point, and I don't know how to make my point clearer...
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Yup. Back in the day. Now if they changed the current way D2 is going...
What you saw was a demo level. I highly doubt it's even going to be in the final product. They may use the introduction to cain little video but I doubt they will use the level itself.
You can play it however you like. Just, to me, playing usually means being in the game, not spamming a chat channel. But it's completely up to you. Most of the rest of us though would rather be playing in the game, from what I can tell...
So one guy makes a hack and uses it for 72 hours. You find out as fast as blizz, sometimes not even that fast. It will hurt the system, but if the system is made properly, the pseudo-gold will be drained relatively quickly...
Fuck yes. I hate it. Hate it hate it hate it. Oh, and hate it. Worst idea ever.
Oh, and I hate it.
(By the way, I HATE BoP/BoE!!!)
In gameplay I do. In length, I don't.
Well, alot of people think that beating people up for there lunch money is fun. Alot of people think that beating there wives is fun. Alot of people think that raping little kids is fun. What's fun for a few is not fun for the majority. I know you hate this but if 10 people want one thing and 2 want another, the 10 people will usually get there way.
Gold based economy was in Diablo 1.
Good items are good, but godly items are gawdly. If you have a good item and I have a gg item do you think I would want to trade my item I spent hours to find the marterials for and spent a fortune to craft for the item you found off that boss like it was nothing?
Thats why I present to you the idea of a Barter House. An area, which can be implimented into the game however Blizzard sees fit, in which Items can be put up for sale/auction for gold and/or other items. The way this would work is every tiem someone enters an item, that item is then recorded in a data base and saved even after the item has been traded. This data base is always accessible to players via a window in the Barter House and when you would like to trade an item for another item you simply open the data base up, search for the item you would like, find it and click a link which then links the item to your auction.
For instance, you want to trade Sword A for 5xRing B. You put Sword A up in the barter house and in the auction creation window you have a both a gold section and an item section. You click the brows database link in the item section. Search for Ring B. Find it and link it to your Auction and put in the you want ringb x5. And create the auction.
http://www.bingegamer.net/index.php/2008/an-open-letter-to-diablo-iii-fanboys
So true...
An Auction House or perhaps merely a centralized 'shop' function (like an auction house, except there's no bidding, just set prices) would be a huge boon to the series.
The worst thing about trading in Diablo 2 was that it hinged on the incredibly-inefficient barter system. There is a good reason that only the most primitive cultures still use it in the real world--it sucks.
The biggest and most obvious flaws of the system are needing to each have what the other needs (which is very difficult to do in a large population), and the differing values of goods and services. I'll give a real-life example: let's say I lived in a barter system economy, and I was a doctor who needed a small carpentry job done (a new chair, whatever). All I have to offer are medical services. Two problems immediately emerge:
1. Medical services are worth more overall than carpentry, so it would be difficult to negotiate a fair trade, as even the smallest 'unit' of medical services may easily be worth more than the small amount of carpentry I need done.
2. What if I can't find any carpenters who need medical services, either because they're healthy or because they've already got them somewhere else?
I'm screwed. However, if we add a universal unit of value (money), the problem immediately vanishes. Firstly, both my services and carpenters' services now can be assigned a distinct, absolute value that's easy to keep track of. Secondly, since you now have this unit of value, you can use it to be the 'middleman' in any and all transactions where the #2 problem would occur. So what if a carpenter doesn't need my medical services? I can pay him the money I earned from people who DID need medical services, and then he can use that money to go get what HE needs instead of medical services.
Another problem specific to Diablo 2 that makes it even worse than the real-life system is that, without using some outside tool like a trade forum, you can only trade with a few people at a time. And even WITH a forum, only a limited number of users will see your trade bait because threads get pushed down, not everyone's online while it's near the top, etc.
So, if you want effective trading, there needs to be an established (not improvised like 'high runes') solid unit of value in Diablo 3--that's where currency comes in. But then again, even most of the people who would argue against something like an auction house know this already, because they've INVENTED currencies in Diablo 2 when they discovered that gold is too common for them to be able to use it to trade for any of the really rare stuff, since they can't hold enough gold for it to be a fair trade. Stones of Jordan were a currency for a while, and currently the currency is 'high runes'. Another example is d2jsp, a forum which basically creates its own artificial currency and injects it into the game, for use by anyone who participates in the forum. So, without these people realizing it, they DO want a good currency system, and not pure barter.
As far as the currency system itself, from the little I've seen/heard of WoW (don't even go down that road, I downloaded the .iso's on one occasion and tried playing on a really crappy private server with like 5% of the functionality, and that only lasted a couple of days--I never played 'for real', even on a trial account), their system is a great idea--you have graduating types of currency (copper/silver/gold or however it's actually set up) so that the numbers are never ridiculous ("selling Mara's for 37,000,000,000 gold"), just as a convenience. This is only a side note, though, because as long as there is a balance struck between rarity of currency and the overall price of things, it'll work just fine--players will adapt quickly.
So, what's better as a means to trade, a 'mall' where sellers set static prices, or an auction house? Frankly, the former would slowly become the latter anyway. An auction house immediately strikes the balance between supply and demand (bidders will bid up to what something's worth (to them)), while a 'mall' does it more slowly (sellers will manually adjust prices based on what how easily things sell at previously-set/seen prices). So, I say why wait to have a balance and just go straight for an auction house--it works for eBay. In either case, it should be centralized, meaning not confined to a game. It should also have a good solid search feature attached to it--imagine how nice it would be to be able to see the offers of everyone who is trading a perfect Mara's on b.net at the same time, and being able to compare their offers.
Of course, item for item trading shouldn't be FORBIDDEN at all. In fact, I could envision a really robust trade system where there is an auction hall (where it's always auctioning off item(s) for currency), AND a 'mall' specifically for item/item trading. You could set the latter up in such a way that doing trades like these is possible to automate:
Trading: Mara's Kaleidoscope (you can mouse over it to see all of its stats just like a normal item you just picked up)
Seeking: Bul Kathos' Wedding Bang with minimum of 4% life steal (you could be allowed to set a minimum/maximum/exact value for any stat(s) on the item so that only people with items high-end enough to make the trade fair for you would be able to complete it)
In addition, throw in a toggle to either let offers sit, so that you can come back and choose the one you like the best (just like leaving offers in chat messages in Diablo 2 while you idle in a game, except a lot more efficient) or reject them all, in the case you get a ton of answers and decide you 'under-charged' (:P), or to take the first offer you get that meets the conditions you set, if you want to 'move' something quickly, or let's say you're trading for an item that has no variable mods, so you know all of the responses to the trade are going to be the same anyway.
I have more tumbling around in my head, but I'll stop there. I think these ideas would turn the trading system from something annoying into something very practical, useful, and user-friendly. Gone would be the days of spending all day making games to try and unload an above-average-but-not-godly item on someone who needs it (hard enough to find), AND who has something you need to offer in trade. And good riddance to that, I say. All of the players who thought that part was fun were either kidding themselves (because most of them used improvised currencies anyway, like 'high runes') or masochists. I am neither, so bring on the improved trade system.
Well, it's still pre-alpha so they may change it. Also, they didn't say that the chest was the ONLY tweak, or at least I didn't hear them say that.
I never said take it out. If you read my posts, when I first posted on this thread, I said I'd like to see both a trading area ala D1/2 style and a new and improved AH in D3, catering to both groups. I doubt many would use the old style when the new one is out, but with both out, everyone would be happy. This is one of those things that could make both sides happy. (Sorta.)
One guy makes the dupe. Unless you have a team working to make the dupe, one guy makes it. He would also, most likely, be the first to test it out. Yes, in D2 they spread like wildfire, but hopefully in D3, they will be better prepared. (I'd like to see perma-IP ban for dupes, and hacks in general, rather then just perma-cdkey ban in D3...)
Lets take another scenario. I make 5 thousand Ber runes. I then take it into the market. Same thing will happen. Market will crash just as bad, the difference is that people will still keep ber runes, they won't keep gold. The gold is then tossed away, and thus gold returns to its original value, via both the masses collective ignorance and the massive numbers of gold sinks that will hopefully be implimented.
In the length of the game, I expect it to be the same length time wise. In gameplay, I expect it to be a huge gigantic leap. My appologies for the misscommunication.
Well, it's the same logic, isn't it? A few people like it, right?
First, America is NOT a Democracy, it's a Republic. Giant difference there. But that's niether here nor there.
Second, yes, the African American movement has gone well. It is the poster child of the minorities. But the African American movement and the Femenist movement are exceptions to the rules. Most people distrust gays. Most people thing athiests are evil. Most Americans have the mentality that if you arn't like them, then you are evil and wrong. I am very proud of the African American movement and the Femenist movement, but, and it kills me to say this about this country that I love, but those are the exceptions, not the rules.
Not really, just feel that it would be silly to cater to five percent that want a prettier version of Diablo 2 when the other 95 percent want a true sequel. Not refrencing you, just speaking in general.
Diablo 1 was a complete fuck up when it comes to economy. Blizzard was young and didn't know how to stop dupes. But it's still basically a gold driven economy. A shitty gold driven economy, but it was a gold driven economy. Thus you can not say it was ripped off WoW, as it has history in the Diablo universe as well. Not a good history at all, but history none-the-less.
And I don't want a copy of Diablo 1's or Diablo 2's economy, and I don't want a copy of WoW's economy. I want a new economy that is effectively taking the best from all three economies.
I have nothing to say about this. You completely missed my point, and I don't know how to make my point clearer...