I like this at a certain cap of existing rare drops so there isn't a nigma like item on every character. However this still leaves the issue of worthless gold unanswered.
Maybe you could somehow implement the gold in those limited number of rares
I like the idea of limited drops like an item so rare their are only 10K of them and once they are found they BoP, because the item will be numbered and you WILL want to keep it.
It gives the player something to play for, but to make every item change like you suggested I just don't see how that could work.
No I don't mean it will change.
I meant that say when the 10k are found blizz has made a different item to be found instead of it with a different name, stats, the whole ten yards.
Maybe they could program it so that you trigger a 10k drop and it automatically is set to your class type so you dont get a BoP barb item on your witch doctor.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The gaming public now has focus on Diablo again, and with it comes the modern-age of trolling and jackassery."
I like this at a certain cap of existing rare drops so there isn't a nigma like item on every character. However this still leaves the issue of worthless gold unanswered.
Even with some items like this they could sue it parallel to your idea of BoE items being unequipable at a cost, just not allowing it on certain items.
They should really lower the amount that is dropped as well as provide multiple uses for gold.
Revamp gambling, allow gold donations for certain in game events to occur such as with soj donation, paying for sockets like the D2 quest did so you didn't need to run another character to the quest, maybe also a personalization that could be bought etc etc.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The gaming public now has focus on Diablo again, and with it comes the modern-age of trolling and jackassery."
One for BOP and BOE. Diablo's economy was crap and anyone who denies it is delusional. ANY online game with any sort of trade going on requires the same economic mechanics as all the others: there needs to be a way to take money/items back out of the system once they have gone in from drops. It's not an argument. IT HAS TO BE DONE, or we will end up with all but a few items being totally worthless. I liked D2 very much, but I hated playing online because it wasn't a challenge to get good loot.
So BOE and BOP implemented, definitely, more so with the former. BOP should be reserved for situations like items earned through PVP (assuming there is a reward system) or for quest items.
The last issue needed to address though, is using alternate currencies. TBH, it would be difficult to design the game so that gold remains necessary in online play, and therefore remains the currency standard (though I hope blizz will try, since that is much easier to work with) but if not, then there needs to be a way to take runes/SOJs/whatever out of the economy, so that it doesn't become inflated.
One is already in place, socketed items (for runes/other socketables) but TBH it's not enough. What is needed is like a trade comission; a tax on trades or sales. Like the autionhouse commission in many MMOs, but applying to item trading as well. Now how the hell would you do that? No idea. Which is why it would be easier to try and keep gold as the main currency, because that's not as difficult to control. But one thing is for damn sure; if there aren't items being taken out of the economy, it will go south, just like every other online game that didn't have them. D2 was not the first, for those of you who are unaware.
Can someone just tell we why gold needs to have a purpose? It was obviousl worthless currency so players found items to use instead, I think this is being over discussed and I feel liek a lot of hte suggestions would only take away from the. I have a strong dislike for gold sinks and hate the idea of trying a weapon out and being stuck with it. I think a better solution can be found.
Can someone just tell we why gold needs to have a purpose? It was obviousl worthless currency so players found items to use instead, I think this is being over discussed and I feel liek a lot of hte suggestions would only take away from the. I have a strong dislike for gold sinks and hate the idea of trying a weapon out and being stuck with it. I think a better solution can be found.
Gold really should have a purpose in the economy. This way I could sell my Uber Item 1372 for 100 gold. I can then take my 100 gold and go buy Uber Item 1004 for 80 gold. No need to fill in the item value gap with stuff I don't need and to try and find someone with the particular item I actually want.
I'm not saying BoE/P will solve this, but I'd prefer a non-barter economy.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The gaming public now has focus on Diablo again, and with it comes the modern-age of trolling and jackassery."
One for BOP and BOE. Diablo's economy was crap and anyone who denies it is delusional. ANY online game with any sort of trade going on requires the same economic mechanics as all the others: there needs to be a way to take money/items back out of the system once they have gone in from drops. It's not an argument. IT HAS TO BE DONE, or we will end up with all but a few items being totally worthless. I liked D2 very much, but I hated playing online because it wasn't a challenge to get good loot.
So BOE and BOP implemented, definitely, more so with the former. BOP should be reserved for situations like items earned through PVP (assuming there is a reward system) or for quest items.
The last issue needed to address though, is using alternate currencies. TBH, it would be difficult to design the game so that gold remains necessary in online play, and therefore remains the currency standard (though I hope blizz will try, since that is much easier to work with) but if not, then there needs to be a way to take runes/SOJs/whatever out of the economy, so that it doesn't become inflated.
One is already in place, socketed items (for runes/other socketables) but TBH it's not enough. What is needed is like a trade comission; a tax on trades or sales. Like the autionhouse commission in many MMOs, but applying to item trading as well. Now how the hell would you do that? No idea. Which is why it would be easier to try and keep gold as the main currency, because that's not as difficult to control. But one thing is for damn sure; if there aren't items being taken out of the economy, it will go south, just like every other online game that didn't have them. D2 was not the first, for those of you who are unaware.
This isn't an MMO. These small governances do not fit in. The basis of Diablo is that, if you can click a mouse, you can play it. The less rare items are saturated after time, while the extra-rare items are coveted. I, for one, would like to collect these items and share them with my chars as I make new builds or whatever. I don't need all these restrictions in Diablo, its much more casual than that.
There's no need for gold to be a mass currency in Diablo because it drops in large piles used for repairs and stuff. We can see that direction in the drops in the gameplay video and sell value of the items. The only solutions needed are fix duping and ladder seasons. The economy will create itself.
The BoE system reduces flexibility of items by a tremendous amount. With it, I can't even see how it looks on a character if I wanted to.
To reduce the number of items in a game is simple:
Make all items ethereal (unrepairable), this way, items gradually lose value and exit the game as time continues - retaining rarity and such. If you use the item, it loses value, if you don't you can trade it for other gear.
The rate at which the items depreciates needs to be a little slower than the rate at which they can be found at first, to allow a certain ratio of items enter the economy then after an arbitrary amount of time (maybe 3 months) be adjusted so items enter and exit the economy at the same rate.
If having multiple bots is still as easy as in D2, BoE and BoP will be useless.
lol I still remember a friend of mine who botted like no tomorrow. We would be in school together, and he would always say how he had his bot running at that moment....
But this shouldn't really be the point though. You shouldn't just disregard an idea like BoE based on the assumption that hacking will occur in the future. We all know hackers will try to mess up the system, but that falls on Blizzard to create a well protected system to prevent these. Still, the issue remains on how to regulate the economy and prevent rampant deflation from happening.
I like how some people here are really trying to think of solutions like that one about having a limit on items. I'm not sure though if that'll work, but hey, at least it's an idea. Just as long as SOMETHING is done to prevent over abundancy in the market.
while i am still agaisnt BOP i do not think a BOE system would be a bad idea... with unlimited trading of any item, the longer the game is played, the more the economy becomes inflated as more and more elite items are found... taking out just a few of these elite items by having a BOE system would deffinately help.
for example: when the game first releases and a character finds say, a windforce, that one windforce is unimaginably expensive, but after 2 years and 1000 windforces have dropped they arent worth nearly as much anymore. with a BOE on this item sure there will still be a lot circulationg, but the ones that people have equipped will be taken out and the price goes back up.
im not saying its a great system but it does help. sure there will be hacks, theres always someone out there trying to take the easy way out. as for the people that are upset about not being able to give that BOE item to there next character.. i would like to speculate something, since this is all speculation anyways, none of us knows whats gonna be in the game
IF there is a boe system and IF there are respecs, the need to transfer an item to another character would be pointless. say u find as in my example a windforce again or u trade for one and its BOE. you give it to your for example sake, your zon (although this class will most likely be replaced with a gender neutral ranger type in d3). so u give it to ur zon who perhaps was jav specced, with a respec option she is now bow specced and can use the item. there would be no need to make another zon since any time u feel like using javs or bows u can respec. the reason things were traded from high level chars to low lever chars in d2 was you couldnt respec so u needed to make another char with different stats/skills just to use a new item you found.
ehh i feel like im rambling on.. all and all my point is, with a respec option BOE would be a viable way to keep the economy from getting terribly inflated.
The BoE system reduces flexibility of items by a tremendous amount. With it, I can't even see how it looks on a character if I wanted to.
To reduce the number of items in a game is simple:
Make all items ethereal (unrepairable), this way, items gradually lose value and exit the game as time continues - retaining rarity and such. If you use the item, it loses value, if you don't you can trade it for other gear.
The rate at which the items depreciates needs to be a little slower than the rate at which they can be found at first, to allow a certain ratio of items enter the economy then after an arbitrary amount of time (maybe 3 months) be adjusted so items enter and exit the economy at the same rate.
Hey that's a nifty idea! Although, I am thinking 3 months is kinda too long; some people won't even play this game for that amount of time. I'm just glad someone understands the ramifications of an unregulated market.
Quote from "moonshine" »
ehh i feel like im rambling on.. all and all my point is, with a respec option BOE would be a viable way to keep the economy from getting terribly inflated.
Nah bro, your points are very well put. I've been trying to explain the same thing to others, but some just don't get it.
Oh, and I think you mean "deflated" when you were mentioning what would happen to an item's worth, since their value decreases over time.
Originally Posted by masterdufus The BoE system reduces flexibility of items by a tremendous amount. With it, I can't even see how it looks on a character if I wanted to.
To reduce the number of items in a game is simple:
Make all items ethereal (unrepairable), this way, items gradually lose value and exit the game as time continues - retaining rarity and such. If you use the item, it loses value, if you don't you can trade it for other gear.
The rate at which the items depreciates needs to be a little slower than the rate at which they can be found at first, to allow a certain ratio of items enter the economy then after an arbitrary amount of time (maybe 3 months) be adjusted so items enter and exit the economy at the same rate.
not a bad idea, but what about the people that want that best item to use, i mean if i find something really awesome that i dont want to replace, it would suck when it broke. like, i wouldnt want to have to find or trade for the best helm every couple months. i would rather find the best helm for my char. and be able to keep it for as long as i play him. nonetheless... at least your on the right track of thinking
im horribly opposed to ethreal items. ugh i dont feel like always having to find new items if all i want to do is pvp at endgame... that would be a waist of my time.
in the end, hackers, scammers, farmers, ect. will always find a way around what is out and try to find a new way to put themselfs ahead. its just the way it is. all blizzard can do is take preventative measures on what they know, and have a quick reaction time what what ever new stuff come out. Its really how we evolve as a human race actually.
I just think it's only natural that items eventually do degrade to scrap if you use it. This way it gives you a reason to play the game a bit more?
This is another idea, just throwing it out there:
The item retains its quality only when its equipped.
If it's not equipped then gradually it deteriorates (rusts or something). This reduces item reservoirs, maintains the economy, and closes the rich poor parity. It is really harsh though, I wouldn't want my items to rust away if I kept it, but hey just a thought.
I just think it's only natural that items eventually do degrade to scrap if you use it. This way it gives you a reason to play the game a bit more?
This is another idea, just throwing it out there:
The item retains its quality only when its equipped.
If it's not equipped then gradually it deteriorates (rusts or something). This reduces item reservoirs, maintains the economy, and closes the rich poor parity. It is really harsh though, I wouldn't want my items to rust away if I kept it, but hey just a thought.
again another good idea. im sure blizzard has taken into account the fact that there was indeed a problem with d2s economy. who knows what crazy idea they have come up with. guess its all about the waiting game but who knows, maybe they will get a few ideas from their fans and run with em. the rust idea is no different than how it is with characters in d2 now.. as they expire if you do not use them for an extended amount of time
no, we dont need any bind on equip or bind on pickup. Nor do we need item rolls. What needs to be done is duping needs to be made impossible. For Diablo 1, it was a stupid glitch. For Diablo 2, it was a server exploit. If Blizzard has learned from the experience of Diablo 2, they will make it exceedingly hard for someone to exploit the game like that.
If you want a more stable game economy, then blizzard needs to give Gold some more importance than gambling and repairng gear.
As for 40 sojs for an .08 Windforce, I've never heard of an .08 Windforce going for that price...though you do hear stupid high prices for Impshenks. Droprates on the items you've said are REDICULIOUSLY low. I've played this game for 8 years and I've never MF'd a windforce or a grandfather sword. Even when I screwed around and hacked an open b.net character to have stupid high MF (over a million), it wouldn't drop. Items like Windforces are extremely rare and even having the highest MF possible, its still a very low % drop. And runes are completely random drops. You can't blame the drop and equip system for rediculious prices. Blame people for being greedy with their items. Hell, did you even consider with a bind on equip system that item prices wont get even worse? The reason the prices are so high for this ladder season is because there aren't enough items out there and the "smart" assholes know that and are charging stupid high prices for items that are normally vender trash.
A Bind on Equip won't solve anything and a Bind on Pickup ruins the usefulness of those items. After all, what good is it if a Barb picks up a BoP item that is Witchdoctor only? Well now his only option is to dump it for useless gold (though I'm more than certain blizzard will fix the uselessness of gold)
Leave this to Blizzard. They'll get it right without having to resort to WoW or Everquest for their answers.
I would personally dislike having BOP or BOE items drop. I honestly cant understand how BOP could even work in the diablo style game. In a diablo game you could unknowingly pick up a BOP item, then have your friend bitch at you because u grabbed an axe and your a sorc.
BOE would add an interesting twist to the game though. Would require more time/effort to get your best gear, which is unlike my experience with D2 where i could make a character, and have it godly in a matter of days.
imho i would not like either of these implemented, but if they must add BOE then i would ask for a greater drop chance on all better items. Because items will be bound to you, the supply would drop a great amount, thus increasing the items price well above what it should be. If more of the items drop, then there would be more non-used items for trade and such, leveling out the economy.
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No I don't mean it will change.
I meant that say when the 10k are found blizz has made a different item to be found instead of it with a different name, stats, the whole ten yards.
Maybe they could program it so that you trigger a 10k drop and it automatically is set to your class type so you dont get a BoP barb item on your witch doctor.
Bashiok - Blizzard Poster
Even with some items like this they could sue it parallel to your idea of BoE items being unequipable at a cost, just not allowing it on certain items.
They should really lower the amount that is dropped as well as provide multiple uses for gold.
Revamp gambling, allow gold donations for certain in game events to occur such as with soj donation, paying for sockets like the D2 quest did so you didn't need to run another character to the quest, maybe also a personalization that could be bought etc etc.
Bashiok - Blizzard Poster
So BOE and BOP implemented, definitely, more so with the former. BOP should be reserved for situations like items earned through PVP (assuming there is a reward system) or for quest items.
The last issue needed to address though, is using alternate currencies. TBH, it would be difficult to design the game so that gold remains necessary in online play, and therefore remains the currency standard (though I hope blizz will try, since that is much easier to work with) but if not, then there needs to be a way to take runes/SOJs/whatever out of the economy, so that it doesn't become inflated.
One is already in place, socketed items (for runes/other socketables) but TBH it's not enough. What is needed is like a trade comission; a tax on trades or sales. Like the autionhouse commission in many MMOs, but applying to item trading as well. Now how the hell would you do that? No idea. Which is why it would be easier to try and keep gold as the main currency, because that's not as difficult to control. But one thing is for damn sure; if there aren't items being taken out of the economy, it will go south, just like every other online game that didn't have them. D2 was not the first, for those of you who are unaware.
Gold really should have a purpose in the economy. This way I could sell my Uber Item 1372 for 100 gold. I can then take my 100 gold and go buy Uber Item 1004 for 80 gold. No need to fill in the item value gap with stuff I don't need and to try and find someone with the particular item I actually want.
I'm not saying BoE/P will solve this, but I'd prefer a non-barter economy.
Bashiok - Blizzard Poster
This isn't an MMO. These small governances do not fit in. The basis of Diablo is that, if you can click a mouse, you can play it. The less rare items are saturated after time, while the extra-rare items are coveted. I, for one, would like to collect these items and share them with my chars as I make new builds or whatever. I don't need all these restrictions in Diablo, its much more casual than that.
There's no need for gold to be a mass currency in Diablo because it drops in large piles used for repairs and stuff. We can see that direction in the drops in the gameplay video and sell value of the items. The only solutions needed are fix duping and ladder seasons. The economy will create itself.
I'm betting they've tried accounting for that although, the scammers get smarter as Blizz gets smarter.
Bashiok - Blizzard Poster
To reduce the number of items in a game is simple:
Make all items ethereal (unrepairable), this way, items gradually lose value and exit the game as time continues - retaining rarity and such. If you use the item, it loses value, if you don't you can trade it for other gear.
The rate at which the items depreciates needs to be a little slower than the rate at which they can be found at first, to allow a certain ratio of items enter the economy then after an arbitrary amount of time (maybe 3 months) be adjusted so items enter and exit the economy at the same rate.
lol I still remember a friend of mine who botted like no tomorrow. We would be in school together, and he would always say how he had his bot running at that moment....
But this shouldn't really be the point though. You shouldn't just disregard an idea like BoE based on the assumption that hacking will occur in the future. We all know hackers will try to mess up the system, but that falls on Blizzard to create a well protected system to prevent these. Still, the issue remains on how to regulate the economy and prevent rampant deflation from happening.
I like how some people here are really trying to think of solutions like that one about having a limit on items. I'm not sure though if that'll work, but hey, at least it's an idea. Just as long as SOMETHING is done to prevent over abundancy in the market.
for example: when the game first releases and a character finds say, a windforce, that one windforce is unimaginably expensive, but after 2 years and 1000 windforces have dropped they arent worth nearly as much anymore. with a BOE on this item sure there will still be a lot circulationg, but the ones that people have equipped will be taken out and the price goes back up.
im not saying its a great system but it does help. sure there will be hacks, theres always someone out there trying to take the easy way out. as for the people that are upset about not being able to give that BOE item to there next character.. i would like to speculate something, since this is all speculation anyways, none of us knows whats gonna be in the game
IF there is a boe system and IF there are respecs, the need to transfer an item to another character would be pointless. say u find as in my example a windforce again or u trade for one and its BOE. you give it to your for example sake, your zon (although this class will most likely be replaced with a gender neutral ranger type in d3). so u give it to ur zon who perhaps was jav specced, with a respec option she is now bow specced and can use the item. there would be no need to make another zon since any time u feel like using javs or bows u can respec. the reason things were traded from high level chars to low lever chars in d2 was you couldnt respec so u needed to make another char with different stats/skills just to use a new item you found.
ehh i feel like im rambling on.. all and all my point is, with a respec option BOE would be a viable way to keep the economy from getting terribly inflated.
Hey that's a nifty idea! Although, I am thinking 3 months is kinda too long; some people won't even play this game for that amount of time. I'm just glad someone understands the ramifications of an unregulated market.
Nah bro, your points are very well put. I've been trying to explain the same thing to others, but some just don't get it.
Oh, and I think you mean "deflated" when you were mentioning what would happen to an item's worth, since their value decreases over time.
The BoE system reduces flexibility of items by a tremendous amount. With it, I can't even see how it looks on a character if I wanted to.
To reduce the number of items in a game is simple:
Make all items ethereal (unrepairable), this way, items gradually lose value and exit the game as time continues - retaining rarity and such. If you use the item, it loses value, if you don't you can trade it for other gear.
The rate at which the items depreciates needs to be a little slower than the rate at which they can be found at first, to allow a certain ratio of items enter the economy then after an arbitrary amount of time (maybe 3 months) be adjusted so items enter and exit the economy at the same rate.
not a bad idea, but what about the people that want that best item to use, i mean if i find something really awesome that i dont want to replace, it would suck when it broke. like, i wouldnt want to have to find or trade for the best helm every couple months. i would rather find the best helm for my char. and be able to keep it for as long as i play him. nonetheless... at least your on the right track of thinking
in the end, hackers, scammers, farmers, ect. will always find a way around what is out and try to find a new way to put themselfs ahead. its just the way it is. all blizzard can do is take preventative measures on what they know, and have a quick reaction time what what ever new stuff come out. Its really how we evolve as a human race actually.
I just think it's only natural that items eventually do degrade to scrap if you use it. This way it gives you a reason to play the game a bit more?
This is another idea, just throwing it out there:
The item retains its quality only when its equipped.
If it's not equipped then gradually it deteriorates (rusts or something). This reduces item reservoirs, maintains the economy, and closes the rich poor parity. It is really harsh though, I wouldn't want my items to rust away if I kept it, but hey just a thought.
again another good idea. im sure blizzard has taken into account the fact that there was indeed a problem with d2s economy. who knows what crazy idea they have come up with. guess its all about the waiting game but who knows, maybe they will get a few ideas from their fans and run with em. the rust idea is no different than how it is with characters in d2 now.. as they expire if you do not use them for an extended amount of time
If you want a more stable game economy, then blizzard needs to give Gold some more importance than gambling and repairng gear.
As for 40 sojs for an .08 Windforce, I've never heard of an .08 Windforce going for that price...though you do hear stupid high prices for Impshenks. Droprates on the items you've said are REDICULIOUSLY low. I've played this game for 8 years and I've never MF'd a windforce or a grandfather sword. Even when I screwed around and hacked an open b.net character to have stupid high MF (over a million), it wouldn't drop. Items like Windforces are extremely rare and even having the highest MF possible, its still a very low % drop. And runes are completely random drops. You can't blame the drop and equip system for rediculious prices. Blame people for being greedy with their items. Hell, did you even consider with a bind on equip system that item prices wont get even worse? The reason the prices are so high for this ladder season is because there aren't enough items out there and the "smart" assholes know that and are charging stupid high prices for items that are normally vender trash.
A Bind on Equip won't solve anything and a Bind on Pickup ruins the usefulness of those items. After all, what good is it if a Barb picks up a BoP item that is Witchdoctor only? Well now his only option is to dump it for useless gold (though I'm more than certain blizzard will fix the uselessness of gold)
Leave this to Blizzard. They'll get it right without having to resort to WoW or Everquest for their answers.
BOE would add an interesting twist to the game though. Would require more time/effort to get your best gear, which is unlike my experience with D2 where i could make a character, and have it godly in a matter of days.
imho i would not like either of these implemented, but if they must add BOE then i would ask for a greater drop chance on all better items. Because items will be bound to you, the supply would drop a great amount, thus increasing the items price well above what it should be. If more of the items drop, then there would be more non-used items for trade and such, leveling out the economy.