***Most concise and organized concern of the Thread Creators proposed System***
The best thing about diablo2 online was that I could trade from the time i got a level 4 cap to the time i got a highly reguarded rune. Diablo 2's trading system allowed me to outfit my character whenever/however i saw fit. Much like a sports team trading for players they specifically need at the given moment. I want to be able to save a badass weapon that may have benefited me 3 levels ago and trade it for other items that support my new skills more adequately.
and that item i no longer have any use for could easily be very useful to someone else and I want to have that option to trade it to someone. Then hopefully i can trade that item thats no longer any use to me for an item that. Remember: Someone else's trash is anothers treasure. Why let that cycle die with your system? To be entirely honest i made a lot of my characters develop much quicker due to the fact that I could trade the great items that I had no use for anymore to someone that Did need them, and i got something more suitable in return as well.
I mean it seems you guys havent taken these into consideration:
- that there will be MORE items in Diablo3 (harder/not as important to acquire same item as another person)
- duping will surely be eliminated entirely from the get-go (blizzard addressed anti-hack as main priority online)
- trading items between characters on the same account will be allowed [which directly affects the amount of characters specified to solely carrying items (mules) which indirectly affects the EXTRA copies of items lingering around the market.]
**on a personal note, i had 3 mules just stocked full of uniques/rares/gems/runes and what not just for the sake of TRADING, that many of my playable characters use at some point of time during their leveling. if i saw someone that was looking for something and I happened to have it I could possibly work out a deal that benefited the both of us. This was a very big part of the game for me. I love trading almost as much as just PvPing.
Now put this scenario in an updated game like what Diablo3 will become (if those 3 points are addressed... mules/duping/many more items) and we still have the freetrading aspect that many players love.
That catch however is I wont have mules because there are more items in the game, and less of the same because Dupes no longer exist. So ill be trading based more on pure substance of the item and not based on specific item Names that everyone talks about in the game.
More differentiated items makes most mules pointless because its less likely for you to see someone randomly looking for item "X" because that item is a LOT harder to come by if duping is entirely gone, and diablo3 expands the item count by a LOT.
if we go with your system......I cant trade any items I used at any point during my characters grueling leveling up process... while at the same time someone in my very own game could desperately be needing an item I have and is willing to trade an item I desperately need in return, but we cannot because its BOUND to each of us.
that honestly sounds retarded.
Very well thought out but still, great games even need compromise. If you would sacrifice economy so an alternate character can use a certain item during a period of his leveling process, then I don't know what more this thread can do for you.
While I agree that there needs to be a system to eliminate items from the trade market in some way, I'm not sure that the BoE idea is the best choice. Guild Wars worked with a customization system; weapons for instance could be customized to the player for an additional 10% damage bonus at the cost of no other character could equip the item again. This clearly wouldin't work in diablo as the principals that weapons are based on are completely different, but rewarding players for having their items binded to them is something to look at.
Yep, that sounds good. Really, I just want SOME system to regulate the economy. I don't really care what form it comes in, just as long as it does the job, and makes the Rare items I find still worth something throughout the game's lifespan.
Don't assume that you won't be able to buy items with gold. I don't see why Blizzard would make the same mistake again.
Gold cannot be the main currency in diablo3 unless the whole game is altered from the ground-up.
because if gold can buy ANY weapon in the game, that means GRINDING will become the main purpose of this game. There would be no upside to challenging yourself within a party to kill bosses when you can just keep killing the same zombie over and over and get any weapon youd like from the 5 gold he drops.
Blizzard cannot make gold the currency of Diablo3 without changing the entire make-up of the game.
They should however make Gold more important by giving it more places to be used
for example: upgrading stash sizes
but making it the currency by which all adhere to is suicide. I want to personally waggle with another player as to why theyd benefit more from my magefists rather than their bloodfists, and how their High rune will be enough in return.
not hear the response...well that will be 5,000,000 gold. Because that means EVERYONE can attain ANY weapon, thus making your initial concern of rarity of items diminishing ----> fulfilled
I agree companies selling items or ebaying items is annoying... but not as annoying as if you get the best drops for one of your other characters and you have to sell them to the vendor...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If we're actually making the game worse with no other reason than to be different from WoW, then it's a bad choice." - Jay Wilson (D3 lead designer)
Very well thought out but still, great games even need compromise. If you would sacrifice economy so an alternate character can use a certain item during a period of his leveling process, then I don't know what more this thread can do for you.
but dude you cannot say without a doubt in your mind that the market would be just as bad or worse if dupes were eliminated, a shit load of more items were incoporated into the game, and mules serve no purpose in Diablo3
i can however say that the market of diablo3, if those three concerns were met, would be Better than its predesessor Diablo2.
I think they should have it where it binds to "account" upon equip and pickup so you're not stuck vendoring it or somthing when it becomes useless to you and yet still able to use them on your other characters via a shared stash... With some BOE and some BOP just like WoW.
I think they should have it where it binds to "account" upon equip and pickup so you're not stuck vendoring it or somthing when it becomes useless to you and yet still able to use them on your other characters via a shared stash... With some BOE and some BOP just like WoW.
so you keep using the same item over and over with multiple characters on your account?
i thought we are trying to UPGRADE the system of diablo2.
this is essentially the same thing in the long run, the game gets boring and predictable because you see/use the same item over and over.
if you dont believe Diablo3 is going to have a shit load of more items than diablo2 than you are mistaken.
so why not have the enjoyment of discovering different weapons and using them and if you dont like them TRADE them to others that may see it as a perfect fit for them, for an item of theirs that you also see as a perfect fit for you.
but dude you cannot say without a doubt in your mind that the market would be just as bad or worse if dupes were eliminated, a shit load of more items were incoporated into the game, and mules serve no purpose in Diablo3
i can however say that the market of diablo3, if those three concerns were met, would be Better than its predesessor Diablo2.
this is fact not opinion.
Um, I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that hacking/duping is bad in general and screws everything to ****. That's a given. Everyone knows it, and everyone is hoping Blizz does a better job about that for D3. But that isn't the issue here.
What we're talking about is how if the item economy isn't regulated by a system, then the overall item worth will slowly, but surely decrease. Sure, in the 1st few months of the game, everyone will be happily trading every new Unique item they find with people. But over time, these same Unique items that were once sought after by many will become completely worthless due to the over abundance of it in the game.
Sure, it would be great if we could all have the best items in the game without restrictions, but the cost of that end is a severely messed up economy. Yes, having BoE will make it tougher on players since you will have to carefully plan out how you will use the items or if you will hold on to it for a trade, but that's what is needed in order for those same items to retain their value throughout the game.
Without a system, all the mid to lower tier Uniques will slowly become worthless and untradeable. Is that really how you want the game to end up? You'll have hordes of these Unique items in your stash, and when someone comes to you with that really Unique item that you need, you won't be able to use those worthless Uniques you've horded up to trade for it, because no one wants them.
Really, I just want SOME system to regulate the economy.
To come up with solutions to the economic problems in DII, you have it identify the causes of the problems(the effect). The "effect" in DII was that gold had no value.
Now, what caused that? At first, you might think that it was because there was too much of it. Thats not true. Because prices change with inflation.
The Cause of the problem was there was nothing to spend gold on, besides taxes(potions&repairs).
This leads me to believe that the best solution is have NPC's offer expensive, desirable, services. Some examples : socketing items, skill respecing, stat respecing, and horrodric cube services, AND expanding stash size. I feel that this preserves the best part of the DII treasure hunting and trading, while fixing the broken/dysfunctional portions of the economy.
Diablo 2's problem was not because of dupes; sure it sort of fucked up the economy, but the economies system was flawed to begin with. Gold had no value which turned D2 into a barter economy (biggest problem imo). Although I think a BoP system would be good, like many of you said it's hard to say anything at this point while we still don't know what features Blizzard fix/add/remove in the game and the new battle.net.
A BoP system would definitely work for a WOWlike economy. But since this is Diablo, a hack and slash, not an MMO, we wont be having professions which constitute a big part of that kind of economy. I think they should start with increasing denominations (Gold, Silver, Copper), decrease drop rates and amount, increase price in services and goods, and increase the number of services and goods that can be bought with the currency. Just my 2 cents.
I just hope Blizzard does SOMETHING.. ANYTHING to make D3's economy good, unlike D2's disappointing economy. Especially since they put special emphasis on LOOT and playing online.
But I disagree with most of you: I loved the D2 economy. I found it fascinating to watch as it evolved - and the market crashes! Like in USWest in 1.09 when a dupe was made publically and readily available for a day or two and SoJ's flooded the market, causing a huge crash in the SoJ price. Haha you could write a thesis on that shit and how it realtes to pre-depression markets in Germany.
I also beleive that gold as a currency would be good and I disagree with what Mario said about it not being viable. Yes I agree that diablo would need to be changed in such as way as to support this, but it's silly to imagine that it couldn't work. Just because a blood moor quill rat drops gold (and items which can be sold for gold) does not necessarily make it any different from D2 currency (SoJ's, wrings, HR's...). Could not these quill rats drop SoJ's too? (hell difficulty, of course.) As such, either way a noob could buy items which he could not find himself for his current skill or location. Let me give you an example: Joe hasn't the strength to get past the blood moor in hell, but he was lucky enough to find 3 SoJ's off the quill rats - let's just pretend he got lucky, ok? So he now can afford a windforce. Now Joe can proceed with confidence to take on the Cold Plains. Why is this different to collecting gold from monsters? All that needs to happen is an increase in gold price. Simple macroeconomics right there.
Oh and I personally don't really care about ebaying items. Yeah I wouldn't do it myself, but you can barely use the excuse "err only losers pay money on computer games". (You bought it yourself too!! :))
But I disagree with most of you: I loved the D2 economy. I found it fascinating to watch as it evolved - and the market crashes! Like in USWest in 1.09 when a dupe was made publically and readily available for a day or two and SoJ's flooded the market, causing a huge crash in the SoJ price. Haha you could write a thesis on that shit and how it realtes to pre-depression markets in Germany.
I also beleive that gold as a currency would be good and I disagree with what Mario said about it not being viable. Yes I agree that diablo would need to be changed in such as way as to support this, but it's silly to imagine that it couldn't work. Just because a blood moor quill rat drops gold (and items which can be sold for gold) does not necessarily make it any different from D2 currency (SoJ's, wrings, HR's...). Could not these quill rats drop SoJ's too? (hell difficulty, of course.) As such, either way a noob could buy items which he could not find himself for his current skill or location. Let me give you an example: Joe hasn't the strength to get past the blood moor in hell, but he was lucky enough to find 3 SoJ's off the quill rats - let's just pretend he got lucky, ok? So he now can afford a windforce. Now Joe can proceed with confidence to take on the Cold Plains. Why is this different to collecting gold from monsters? All that needs to happen is an increase in gold price. Simple macroeconomics right there.
--Jimbo
dont understand if you are mocking me or what but ill ignore.
Ive got a rebuttle: Gold drops on about 90% of all creatures and not just 1 gold at a time.
if you alter the drop rate of gold to reflect that of sojs in diablo2 (which is what you said, to change the current into only GOLD) makes it unrealitic in the game. think of it in a lore sense....why would gold be harder to come by than an AXE or SOJ if its the main currency?
you guys are getting it wrong, have an open free trade market is the best for this game. and SOJ currency never worked anyways. you cant have 1 specificed item as the main form of currency in this game because this game contain Randomized drops. you will either get an over abundance of currency (gold) that you can just exploit, or you will end up with a currency thats few and far in between(soj, when dupes are eliminated); resulting in No trade.
having the market open and free for a player to trade any item he wishes to anyone thats willing to comply is the best way to be.
just give gold more purpose like: upgrading stash, socketing items, respecing stats/skills, etc etc.
this also opens oppurtunities for more Merchants to play a bigger role in the story aspect, because you more character development can happen through conversing with merchants while wanting to have your item socketed for instance.
But I disagree with most of you: I loved the D2 economy. I found it fascinating to watch as it evolved - and the market crashes! Like in USWest in 1.09 when a dupe was made publically and readily available for a day or two and SoJ's flooded the market, causing a huge crash in the SoJ price. Haha you could write a thesis on that shit and how it realtes to pre-depression markets in Germany.
The one main problem(and difference) : Soj's serve a purpose besides being something to trade. Ultimately, No matter how many there were, you would still most likely want to use an SOJ. It was still functional. When Germany's economy crashed, the only thing they could do with their money is burn it to keep warm.
It's still fun to watch and study though. I'm sort of an econ nerd, as I guess you are too.
Don't let people buy any worthwhile items from NPC's. NPC's have NO USE for any item, so why the fuck would they ever something reasonable for it.
Gold should be the main form Currency. You know why? Because I know the definition of currency.
Sorry for being a bit rude, but it was the best way I could put it.
uhh i dont understand? .... i never said the currency would be items to NPC/merchants, it would still be gold of course.
but between player to player it should be items.
example: why would i trade my Bonesnap to someone for 200,000 gold when that will just allow me to buy potions, lame weapons, or portals from a merch.
now if you say Merchants should sell ELITE weapons, well then theres no point in trading when i can just farm easy enemies constantly that drop gold and just stock my player up quickly with ELITE items.
either way your arguement for making gold the main currency holds no water.... unless the WHOLE mechanics of the game are entirely gutted and replaced (which wouldnt happen because blizzard is staying true to the franchise)
all that needs to be done is :
- elimintate duping
- add a shit load of more uniques,rares,set items
- making specific items hard to come by more than once thus making mules useless
- have gold serve more of a purpose like purchasing favors from merchants/npcs : i.e. upgrading stash size, respecing stats/skills, adding sockets to weapons, etc etc.
if you alter the drop rate of gold to reflect that of sojs in diablo2 (which is what you said, to change the current into only GOLD) makes it unrealitic in the game. think of it in a lore sense....why would gold be harder to come by than an AXE or SOJ if its the main currency?
Not to mention it doesn't solve anything. I mean, any monster at any point can drop quilted armor, but it serves no function. If gold still serves no function, it wouldn't matter how rare it was, it would still be worthless.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Common sense goes a long way...
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Very well thought out but still, great games even need compromise. If you would sacrifice economy so an alternate character can use a certain item during a period of his leveling process, then I don't know what more this thread can do for you.
Yep, that sounds good. Really, I just want SOME system to regulate the economy. I don't really care what form it comes in, just as long as it does the job, and makes the Rare items I find still worth something throughout the game's lifespan.
Gold cannot be the main currency in diablo3 unless the whole game is altered from the ground-up.
because if gold can buy ANY weapon in the game, that means GRINDING will become the
main purpose of this game. There would be no upside to challenging yourself within a party
to kill bosses when you can just keep killing the same zombie over and over and get any
weapon youd like from the 5 gold he drops.
Blizzard cannot make gold the currency of Diablo3 without changing the entire make-up of
the game.
They should however make Gold more important by giving it more places to be used
for example: upgrading stash sizes
but making it the currency by which all adhere to is suicide. I want to personally waggle with another player as to why theyd benefit more from my magefists rather than their bloodfists, and how their High rune will be enough in return.
not hear the response...well that will be 5,000,000 gold. Because that means EVERYONE can attain ANY weapon, thus making your initial concern of rarity of items diminishing ----> fulfilled
Sign for a Darker Art Direction in the dungeons/caves/etc.
www.myspace.com/mariocamillo
www.youtube.com/mariospeedwagon
I agree companies selling items or ebaying items is annoying... but not as annoying as if you get the best drops for one of your other characters and you have to sell them to the vendor...
but dude you cannot say without a doubt in your mind that the market would be just as bad or worse if dupes were eliminated, a shit load of more items were incoporated into the game, and mules serve no purpose in Diablo3
i can however say that the market of diablo3, if those three concerns were met, would be Better than its predesessor Diablo2.
this is fact not opinion.
Sign for a Darker Art Direction in the dungeons/caves/etc.
www.myspace.com/mariocamillo
www.youtube.com/mariospeedwagon
so you keep using the same item over and over with multiple characters on your account?
i thought we are trying to UPGRADE the system of diablo2.
this is essentially the same thing in the long run, the game gets boring and predictable because you see/use the same item over and over.
if you dont believe Diablo3 is going to have a shit load of more items than diablo2 than you are mistaken.
so why not have the enjoyment of discovering different weapons and using them and if you dont like them TRADE them to others that may see it as a perfect fit for them, for an item of theirs that you also see as a perfect fit for you.
Sign for a Darker Art Direction in the dungeons/caves/etc.
www.myspace.com/mariocamillo
www.youtube.com/mariospeedwagon
Um, I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that hacking/duping is bad in general and screws everything to ****. That's a given. Everyone knows it, and everyone is hoping Blizz does a better job about that for D3. But that isn't the issue here.
What we're talking about is how if the item economy isn't regulated by a system, then the overall item worth will slowly, but surely decrease. Sure, in the 1st few months of the game, everyone will be happily trading every new Unique item they find with people. But over time, these same Unique items that were once sought after by many will become completely worthless due to the over abundance of it in the game.
Sure, it would be great if we could all have the best items in the game without restrictions, but the cost of that end is a severely messed up economy. Yes, having BoE will make it tougher on players since you will have to carefully plan out how you will use the items or if you will hold on to it for a trade, but that's what is needed in order for those same items to retain their value throughout the game.
Without a system, all the mid to lower tier Uniques will slowly become worthless and untradeable. Is that really how you want the game to end up? You'll have hordes of these Unique items in your stash, and when someone comes to you with that really Unique item that you need, you won't be able to use those worthless Uniques you've horded up to trade for it, because no one wants them.
I certainly don't want that type of economy.
To come up with solutions to the economic problems in DII, you have it identify the causes of the problems(the effect).
The "effect" in DII was that gold had no value.
Now, what caused that? At first, you might think that it was because there was too much of it. Thats not true. Because prices change with inflation.
The Cause of the problem was there was nothing to spend gold on, besides taxes(potions&repairs).
This leads me to believe that the best solution is have NPC's offer expensive, desirable, services. Some examples : socketing items, skill respecing, stat respecing, and horrodric cube services, AND expanding stash size. I feel that this preserves the best part of the DII treasure hunting and trading, while fixing the broken/dysfunctional portions of the economy.
That is a great one, I'm going to add it to my list in my last post. And, yes, I agree with this sentiment completely.
A BoP system would definitely work for a WOWlike economy. But since this is Diablo, a hack and slash, not an MMO, we wont be having professions which constitute a big part of that kind of economy. I think they should start with increasing denominations (Gold, Silver, Copper), decrease drop rates and amount, increase price in services and goods, and increase the number of services and goods that can be bought with the currency. Just my 2 cents.
I just hope Blizzard does SOMETHING.. ANYTHING to make D3's economy good, unlike D2's disappointing economy. Especially since they put special emphasis on LOOT and playing online.
But I disagree with most of you: I loved the D2 economy. I found it fascinating to watch as it evolved - and the market crashes! Like in USWest in 1.09 when a dupe was made publically and readily available for a day or two and SoJ's flooded the market, causing a huge crash in the SoJ price. Haha you could write a thesis on that shit and how it realtes to pre-depression markets in Germany.
I also beleive that gold as a currency would be good and I disagree with what Mario said about it not being viable. Yes I agree that diablo would need to be changed in such as way as to support this, but it's silly to imagine that it couldn't work. Just because a blood moor quill rat drops gold (and items which can be sold for gold) does not necessarily make it any different from D2 currency (SoJ's, wrings, HR's...). Could not these quill rats drop SoJ's too? (hell difficulty, of course.) As such, either way a noob could buy items which he could not find himself for his current skill or location. Let me give you an example: Joe hasn't the strength to get past the blood moor in hell, but he was lucky enough to find 3 SoJ's off the quill rats - let's just pretend he got lucky, ok? So he now can afford a windforce. Now Joe can proceed with confidence to take on the Cold Plains. Why is this different to collecting gold from monsters? All that needs to happen is an increase in gold price. Simple macroeconomics right there.
--Jimbo
hmmm its obviously going to cut down the amount of things made, i like it.
even having gold be used to socket, respec skills/stats are great ideas.
just Dont i repeat dont have Gold give you the ability to buy any item you want by making it the main form of currency, thats ridiculous.
Sign for a Darker Art Direction in the dungeons/caves/etc.
www.myspace.com/mariocamillo
www.youtube.com/mariospeedwagon
And BoE wouldn't be ideal IMO. Not for diablo.
Don't let people buy any worthwhile items from NPC's. NPC's have NO USE for any item, so why the fuck would they ever something reasonable for it.
Gold should be the main form Currency. You know why? Because I know the definition of currency.
Sorry for being a bit rude, but it was the best way I could put it.
dont understand if you are mocking me or what but ill ignore.
Ive got a rebuttle: Gold drops on about 90% of all creatures and not just 1 gold at a time.
if you alter the drop rate of gold to reflect that of sojs in diablo2 (which is what you said, to change the current into only GOLD) makes it unrealitic in the game. think of it in a lore sense....why would gold be harder to come by than an AXE or SOJ if its the main currency?
you guys are getting it wrong, have an open free trade market is the best for this game. and SOJ currency never worked anyways. you cant have 1 specificed item as the main form of currency in this game because this game contain Randomized drops. you will either get an over abundance of currency (gold) that you can just exploit, or you will end up with a currency thats few and far in between(soj, when dupes are eliminated); resulting in No trade.
having the market open and free for a player to trade any item he wishes to anyone thats willing to comply is the best way to be.
just give gold more purpose like: upgrading stash, socketing items, respecing stats/skills, etc etc.
this also opens oppurtunities for more Merchants to play a bigger role in the story aspect, because you more character development can happen through conversing with merchants while wanting to have your item socketed for instance.
Sign for a Darker Art Direction in the dungeons/caves/etc.
www.myspace.com/mariocamillo
www.youtube.com/mariospeedwagon
The one main problem(and difference) : Soj's serve a purpose besides being something to trade. Ultimately, No matter how many there were, you would still most likely want to use an SOJ. It was still functional. When Germany's economy crashed, the only thing they could do with their money is burn it to keep warm.
It's still fun to watch and study though. I'm sort of an econ nerd, as I guess you are too.
uhh i dont understand? .... i never said the currency would be items to NPC/merchants, it would still be gold of course.
but between player to player it should be items.
example: why would i trade my Bonesnap to someone for 200,000 gold when that will just allow me to buy potions, lame weapons, or portals from a merch.
now if you say Merchants should sell ELITE weapons, well then theres no point in trading when i can just farm easy enemies constantly that drop gold and just stock my player up quickly with ELITE items.
either way your arguement for making gold the main currency holds no water.... unless the WHOLE mechanics of the game are entirely gutted
and replaced (which wouldnt happen because blizzard is staying true to the franchise)
all that needs to be done is :
- elimintate duping
- add a shit load of more uniques,rares,set items
- making specific items hard to come by more than once thus making mules useless
- have gold serve more of a purpose like purchasing favors from merchants/npcs : i.e. upgrading stash size, respecing stats/skills, adding sockets to weapons, etc etc.
Sign for a Darker Art Direction in the dungeons/caves/etc.
www.myspace.com/mariocamillo
www.youtube.com/mariospeedwagon
keep diablo same and have visual and story updates
we dont need to implement wow stuff
i hate wow :mad:
Not to mention it doesn't solve anything. I mean, any monster at any point can drop quilted armor, but it serves no function. If gold still serves no function, it wouldn't matter how rare it was, it would still be worthless.