hilarious. i'm not here to argue, im here to give my opinion. if so many people didn't come to the forums looking for a fight there might be enough fans to not make this game tank.
No. And if you need this in D3 the inventory system has clearly failed.
you fail to get my point. I didnt say i needed mules. I said that the clearest example of the "tetris" inventorys failure to "identify" items just by the looks of them were rings and jewelry in general.
you tried to reply to the point here... but:
I wasn't pointing to same-type items looking exactly the same, that will occur in either system. I meant that you can instantly tell items apart that are of different size. The WoW icons seem to fail at that, with some icons i can't even tell what it is.
not pointing to same-type items looking exactly the same... hmm... so there's no problem with most of the armors looking exactly the same, eh? They're same type items too.
By "you can instantly tell items apart that they are of different size" i think thats a rather trivial arguement. A couple days and you can tell the difference by the base items itself. As in any game you wont start with all the items of the world. Your first rings and armor will feel like an achievement. And you'll know the icons eventually. What changes in the icons (on the 1 slot system) are the details. You can always tell whats shoulder armor and whats a robe, chestplate etc.
Or an even cooler idea: make a 3x3 tetris slot on the char for charms/rewards (there has been a thread on rewards for achievements), and make them rather powerful and different sizes/aspects. They should then be clearly visible ingame or atleast when hovering over a char.
a couple charm slots wouldnt be a bad idea indeed. But as a different addition to current gear (just as the shoulder pads).
maybe Blizzard will find it a good thought too?
If you can convince blizzard to actually use high-poly models, good. Right now it seems they are aiming for the broadest base of customers by keeping the hardware requirements low, as they have done with D2. Come on, they even didn't use normal maps, so it pretty much looks like you can't expect any gorgeous gear ingame. It would off course be better if it looked best ingame when you zoom in.
graphics change over the development of a game. I'm sure that Diablo III will look good (not too good, Blizzard never was cutting edge in matter graphics) and very well optimized. The looks of the items on the characters were clearly better than in any game of the same type i've seen (Loki, Titan Quest, Dungeon Siege). I'm happy about it too.
Did you find all rings (oh, and are you sure they are really rings) in 30 seconds in the screenshot i posted ? Good, now for the next level: find all armors in 15 seconds...
I just don't want to trade unnecessary inventory sorting for unnecessary inventory searching, that's all.
another try to bring me down without an actual point. I organized the bags in the screenshot you saw. Most of the items i use are in the first 5 bags (together with the mostly used consumables - potions, flasks etc). Now in the bank i arranged most items as in "shadow gear", "nature gear", "old boss drops" etc. I can find them in a minute. How you decide to organize them is up to you. Theres much of a choice (as i showed before and apparently you ignored).
Pixels are pretty limited, and looking at the screenshot i have to disagree. Or better, i have to agree they have their own icons, but overall they're surely not as distinguishable as they would be in in tetris-style.
and again: as long as we can view them on our characters - and they look even better - why should we care about a bloody icon? we'll know where we put it in our bags. We'll know where to take it from to sell to merchants. We'll know where the new drops are after we pick them up to use. Simple as 1-2-3.
Because for every downside we remove we get another, that's not exactly a win. I'm just thinking of the worst case, that would be to have crappy ingame items along with crappy small icons, and i definately don't want that. That's why i'm saying better stick with tetris and improve on it than switch to 1-slot leaving us with unspectacular gear. Remember, the 'art' aspect is more important to me than game mechanics in this case.
That part actually made sense to me. I dont agree, but at least it makes sense.
I can understand how people may still "want" the view of the items as they were in the older games. Call it nostalgia, but do you actually know why they made it this way?
They did because the possibilities to tell the different pieces of armor (even of the same kind with different stats) were limited. Now with the current technology you can tell the difference for every item. And not because its greenish and has horns and looks like a skull.
The item sets look very decent already. I expect uniques to be at least spectacular, but until i see them, i wont complain about them.
The Art of the came i will most likely admire in the art book thats most likely going to be in the collector's edition that i'll buy. But Diablo as a game is much more than just about how the armors look in the inventory.
i didn't say anything about personal problems, my friends and i debate all the time. But a forum is for freedom of speech, i can voice my opinion without having the time to explain if that's my circumstance and there's not a damn thing wrong with it. I have things to do other than write on this forum, and when i'm called to do something i'd rather hit post reply than leave it open for my gf or goofball friends to write something like 'im gay' in my post and do it for me while im gone.
indeed, but what makes a post worth reading is the point in it. You said you prefer the 1 slot system. Good, its personal taste. But, you said tetris system is better. Well, saying your personal taste is fine, its what you like, that doesnt need any explaining. But how something is better than something else, does require some points at least. Most of the people that voiced their thoughts about the tetris/1 slot system debate had a point.
It's pretty much like saying "you suck" without having to explain anything. Its not true but with your logic none should question it.
i think that's fair enough (the last sentence and the one before it, the others i didn't seem fitting for my circumstances). To be perfectly honest if i had the time i was gonna go back and edit it but i forgot, by the time i saw it again it was already quoted, and from what i've seen editing quoted statements always causes confusion. I think i already put my actual point into this thread earlier, but there are two or three active threads about grid vs. tetris, and it gets confusing, ya know? If it was in another thread i'll put them in here via edit. But the problem wasn't that I didn't want to go in detail, it was that I couldn't at the moment.
anyway, this is on edit, i couldnt find my points so ill repost what i put on another thread.
tetris pros:
much more realistic, +5 pts
requires somewhat careful planning deciding what goes where(which is always a factor i appreciate) +3 pts
Lets me enjoy the artwork (though i seldom take the time to.) +1 pt
allows better identification on-the-fly (in almost all circumstances, probably not 100%) +1 point
rearranging gives me something to do when i get sick of devil killing (probably doesn't apply to most people that don't) +2pts
SS pros:
saves screen space +3 pts
probably reduces the memory needed to run the game, need confirmation from a friend who *claims* (emphasis) to know a guy at blizzard +4 pts
doesn't require the hassle of reorganizing (unless you're stuck on keeping armors in one pile and charms in the other) +3 points
and my deciding factor...
Blizzard liked single slot. These guys make some absolutely amazing games, and if they think a less-likable factor will make a better game (like replacing your bad-ass wand for a weaker staff to get a set bonus), then I completely trust them.
that's not to say I'll follow blindly, but a decision like this is one i feel that they are best suited for. imagine how they'll change it to make the tetris people happy, adding original features to sway the nonbelievers.
I would much rather manipulate an object that actually resembles an object - than have blocks of relatively homogeneous iconography that 'stand' for objects. In a visual context, the items and weapons seem as ethereal as your hot bar, or spell icons - further hudifiying what was once far more entrenched in the in-game experience.
This goes on my list of artistic design departures along with hovering health bars.
Additionally, the homogeneity of the 1-slot system hurts my eyes. This is not just because everything is the same shape - but everything is flattened and abstracted within the common slot frame. There's no object, just snippets of paintings - all as colorful. A full inventory effectively flattens into a single collage.
Good points intrinsik. The S-S inventory throws aesthetics out the window in favor of function, but is it really worth it? How much function is actually gained? And at what cost? I really loved the item artwork in D2, it would be a shame to replace it with "chibi" icons.
In a broader perspective and to carry your point further, I hope Blizzard's games don't flatten into a "single collage". As we have seen with the arguments presented, there are good reasons to keep a grid inventory. I would prefer as much individualization as possible between Blizz games to create a truly unique experience. There is absolutely no reason to merge ideas in this case. If there is any monotony I fear, it is playing the same game over and over.
To quote a post that I made on the battle net forums:
"Exactly like D2" would be over-blowing my words. I don't see a terrible need to adopt systems from WoW when certain systems in D2 worked well. "Why change something that isn't broken?" I would rather see more individuality than less. Homogenization is only productive and necessary to a degree in this evolution of game design. Certainly I see the need to change many things about D2 that worked poorly, as well as the need to build upon the lacking elements of the previous Diablo games that would be cohesive and incrementally beneficial to the genre. The key, I feel, however is to keep the aura of distinctness between Blizzard IP's. That is, avoid merging an idea from game A into game B when game B's idea worked well enough that fans liked it - for the sake of individuality. Like Blizzard's justification of few classes with drastically different abilities, this ideology should as well be applied to the games themselves. It is crucial that the mood evoked from WoW be nothing like that of Diablo. Each game should satisfy different needs, emotions, and play-styles. At such a point, Diablo and WoW can be loved for their differences, their unique disfigurements, idiosyncrasies, and palpable humanity.
In other words, if I were Blizzard I avoid this notion of "perfection" in mechanics. I wouldn't simply carry over an idea to Diablo because it is gruelingly efficient or a minor improvement via numerical analysis when the previous mechanic worked well. That would be similar to engineering human beings to all share similar traits because we deem them to be superior. We would be a bland, weak race.
Merging ideas ultimately just creates less ideas and less variety. This is the equivalent of inbreeding in terms of game design. I would like to see a little more creativity instead. Revise and expound upon mechanics instead of obliterating them.
this isnt about merging ideas, its about seeing what practically works best and deciding for it.
Think that Diablo III isnt made only for the existing fanbase, but for other people aswell. Having an inventory system thats simple, well known from other games and works very well for people of all ages (the 10.000.000 of WoW subscribers are enough of an example and if you think of all the other games that use the S-S system you get over 12 million users).
I can understand the "need" of some oldschool fans to keep some of these things but hey, its evolution. Things change and in my opinion to the best.
As i mentioned before, the use of larger (and in some cases more spectacular) item icons on the inventory was more important because you couldnt tell much of a difference on the character himself. Now thats not the case and things are moving a different way.
Easier to use UI, smaller item icons and more room in general for stuff in the inventory with items that actually show on the character.
this isnt about merging ideas, its about seeing what practically works best and deciding for it.
Think that Diablo III isnt made only for the existing fanbase, but for other people aswell. Having an inventory system thats simple, well known from other games and works very well for people of all ages (the 10.000.000 of WoW subscribers are enough of an example and if you think of all the other games that use the S-S system you get over 12 million users).
I can understand the "need" of some oldschool fans to keep some of these things but hey, its evolution. Things change and in my opinion to the best.
As i mentioned before, the use of larger (and in some cases more spectacular) item icons on the inventory was more important because you couldnt tell much of a difference on the character himself. Now thats not the case and things are moving a different way.
Easier to use UI, smaller item icons and more room in general for stuff in the inventory with items that actually show on the character.
The problem is that things aren't changing if S-S from WoW is adopted. You fail to realize that this exact system already exists in a very recent game by the same company. In what way you define this as change is beyond me.
The problem is that things aren't changing if S-S from WoW is adopted.
Does it matter one bit where it came from? WoW didn't invent the 1:1 inventory, they didn't invent the hotbar. All this stuff was in previous games working well before WoW. WoW just became more popular do to a lot of other factors like Warcraft fanbase, expansive world, a lot of people like MMO's, etc etc.
Meh I'm pro it. Saves me time and space, I did like looking at some items in D2, like visually in the inventory..... but it also means they have to spend less time on making art for items in the inventory and means the game comes out quicker
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"If we're actually making the game worse with no other reason than to be different from WoW, then it's a bad choice." - Jay Wilson (D3 lead designer)
The problem is that things aren't changing if S-S from WoW is adopted. You fail to realize that this exact system already exists in a very recent game by the same company. In what way you define this as change is beyond me.
god, why cant people understand.
i'm not talking about an invention, i'm talking about change.
Diablo was as it was. With this new system its changing. Is it so hard to understand? Instead to read the damn point you try to argue about the meaning of change. Is that the best you can do?
Quote from "intrinsik4" »
The idea of practicality and ultimately streamlining gameplay only takes a game so far.
Alot of people like to say "gameplay / graphics" and then get caught up in semantics so that "graphics" ends up involving much more than what it was originally intended to mean.
I say "(gameplay + graphics) / glitz"
I dont see how 1-slot inventories are so much more efficient than tetris inventories, to justify such a stylistic departure.
And as far as intuitive gameplay - an actual staff would be far more intuitive than a little box with the head of a staff in it, or is that an amulet, maybe a funky charm? Though, honestly... I think anyone could easily wrap their head around either system within 10 minutes.
point well taken.
What you like has mostly to do with your taste and as you said anyone could easily wrap their head around either system very fast.
For me as i tried both systems i find the S-S system better. Its still easy to know which item is which and i can easily arrange things. And if you consider the lack of tradeskill crap that i have to use in WoW for the professions, that would mean alot more room for loots (that will be easier to access in Diablo III too).
what can i say, even though i liked some of the item icons in the past, thats not what i'm mostly interested in. I like to admire my character, not the icons in the inventory (spent some time looking on my character in Oblivion wearing full Daedric Armor... looked awesome!)
Does it matter one bit where it came from? WoW didn't invent the 1:1 inventory, they didn't invent the hotbar. All this stuff was in previous games working well before WoW. WoW just became more popular do to a lot of other factors like Warcraft fanbase, expansive world, a lot of people like MMO's, etc etc.
No it actually doesn't matter at all where it came from. What matters is that it is being recycled from one immediate generation to the next. Instead, take the idea from Diablo and expound on it with modern ideas and conventions and you get something fresh. "New" is simply taking something old and marrying it with some modern ingenuity.
Diablo was as it was. With this new system its changing.
And I'm not just talking about Diablo, I'm talking about Blizzard games in general. I'm talking about the change from one title to the next regardless of what the title may be. That's all that matters to me.
No it actually doesn't matter at all where it came from. What matters is that it is being recycled from one immediate generation to the next. Instead, take the idea from Diablo and expound on it with modern ideas and conventions and you get something fresh. "New" is simply taking something old and marrying it with some modern ingenuity.
The old D2 system was used in many games as well. Both ideas are used in many games.
I liked the old system but it was a hassle, most items you wanted to keep took up too much room. Now if they kept the old system and added a bunch more inventory/stash I wouldn't care. I wouldn't have to organize all the time and drop items at every turn.
This of course still wouldn't be a new idea though.
And I'm not just talking about Diablo, I'm talking about Blizzard games in general. I'm talking about the change from one title to the next regardless of what the title may be. That's all that matters to me.
what matters to me (and to most people on this forum) is Diablo III. Thats the next Blizzard game i'm going to buy (Wrath of the Lich King is an expansion so it doesnt count) and thats the game i'm mostly interested in.
If Blizzard decides to invent something for their next game (the Next-Gen-MMO maybe?), so be it! I'll be happy to see the new stuff. But what i saw so far of Diablo III i liked.
what matters to me (and to most people on this forum) is Diablo III. Thats the next Blizzard game i'm going to buy (Wrath of the Lich King is an expansion so it doesnt count) and thats the game i'm mostly interested in.
If Blizzard decides to invent something for their next game (the Next-Gen-MMO maybe?), so be it! I'll be happy to see the new stuff. But what i saw so far of Diablo III i liked.
Diablo III matters enough to me that I wouldn't like it to recycle mechanics from WoW where not necessary. There are plenty of great unique ideas that previous Diablo games had to create change from WoW and ultimately create a fresh new experience. WoW is very prominent in my mind right now, Diablo 1 & 2 are not. If Blizzard is able to take a modern spin on the older ideas it will be a welcome change.
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you tried to reply to the point here... but:
not pointing to same-type items looking exactly the same... hmm... so there's no problem with most of the armors looking exactly the same, eh? They're same type items too.
By "you can instantly tell items apart that they are of different size" i think thats a rather trivial arguement. A couple days and you can tell the difference by the base items itself. As in any game you wont start with all the items of the world. Your first rings and armor will feel like an achievement. And you'll know the icons eventually. What changes in the icons (on the 1 slot system) are the details. You can always tell whats shoulder armor and whats a robe, chestplate etc.
a couple charm slots wouldnt be a bad idea indeed. But as a different addition to current gear (just as the shoulder pads).
maybe Blizzard will find it a good thought too?
graphics change over the development of a game. I'm sure that Diablo III will look good (not too good, Blizzard never was cutting edge in matter graphics) and very well optimized. The looks of the items on the characters were clearly better than in any game of the same type i've seen (Loki, Titan Quest, Dungeon Siege). I'm happy about it too.
another try to bring me down without an actual point. I organized the bags in the screenshot you saw. Most of the items i use are in the first 5 bags (together with the mostly used consumables - potions, flasks etc). Now in the bank i arranged most items as in "shadow gear", "nature gear", "old boss drops" etc. I can find them in a minute. How you decide to organize them is up to you. Theres much of a choice (as i showed before and apparently you ignored).
and again: as long as we can view them on our characters - and they look even better - why should we care about a bloody icon? we'll know where we put it in our bags. We'll know where to take it from to sell to merchants. We'll know where the new drops are after we pick them up to use. Simple as 1-2-3.
That part actually made sense to me. I dont agree, but at least it makes sense.
I can understand how people may still "want" the view of the items as they were in the older games. Call it nostalgia, but do you actually know why they made it this way?
They did because the possibilities to tell the different pieces of armor (even of the same kind with different stats) were limited. Now with the current technology you can tell the difference for every item. And not because its greenish and has horns and looks like a skull.
The item sets look very decent already. I expect uniques to be at least spectacular, but until i see them, i wont complain about them.
The Art of the came i will most likely admire in the art book thats most likely going to be in the collector's edition that i'll buy. But Diablo as a game is much more than just about how the armors look in the inventory.
It's pretty much like saying "you suck" without having to explain anything. Its not true but with your logic none should question it.
anyway, this is on edit, i couldnt find my points so ill repost what i put on another thread.
tetris pros:
much more realistic, +5 pts
requires somewhat careful planning deciding what goes where(which is always a factor i appreciate) +3 pts
Lets me enjoy the artwork (though i seldom take the time to.) +1 pt
allows better identification on-the-fly (in almost all circumstances, probably not 100%) +1 point
rearranging gives me something to do when i get sick of devil killing (probably doesn't apply to most people that don't) +2pts
SS pros:
saves screen space +3 pts
probably reduces the memory needed to run the game, need confirmation from a friend who *claims* (emphasis) to know a guy at blizzard +4 pts
doesn't require the hassle of reorganizing (unless you're stuck on keeping armors in one pile and charms in the other) +3 points
and my deciding factor...
Blizzard liked single slot. These guys make some absolutely amazing games, and if they think a less-likable factor will make a better game (like replacing your bad-ass wand for a weaker staff to get a set bonus), then I completely trust them.
that's not to say I'll follow blindly, but a decision like this is one i feel that they are best suited for. imagine how they'll change it to make the tetris people happy, adding original features to sway the nonbelievers.
who says gameplay has not changed?
My mediocre attempt at making a Signature.
what i find annoying are extremely big signatures like this:
Horrible example.
That person has like 150+ inventory slots, Diablo 3 will have 30.
Convenience.
Good points intrinsik. The S-S inventory throws aesthetics out the window in favor of function, but is it really worth it? How much function is actually gained? And at what cost? I really loved the item artwork in D2, it would be a shame to replace it with "chibi" icons.
In a broader perspective and to carry your point further, I hope Blizzard's games don't flatten into a "single collage". As we have seen with the arguments presented, there are good reasons to keep a grid inventory. I would prefer as much individualization as possible between Blizz games to create a truly unique experience. There is absolutely no reason to merge ideas in this case. If there is any monotony I fear, it is playing the same game over and over.
To quote a post that I made on the battle net forums:
Merging ideas ultimately just creates less ideas and less variety. This is the equivalent of inbreeding in terms of game design. I would like to see a little more creativity instead. Revise and expound upon mechanics instead of obliterating them.
Think that Diablo III isnt made only for the existing fanbase, but for other people aswell. Having an inventory system thats simple, well known from other games and works very well for people of all ages (the 10.000.000 of WoW subscribers are enough of an example and if you think of all the other games that use the S-S system you get over 12 million users).
I can understand the "need" of some oldschool fans to keep some of these things but hey, its evolution. Things change and in my opinion to the best.
As i mentioned before, the use of larger (and in some cases more spectacular) item icons on the inventory was more important because you couldnt tell much of a difference on the character himself. Now thats not the case and things are moving a different way.
Easier to use UI, smaller item icons and more room in general for stuff in the inventory with items that actually show on the character.
The problem is that things aren't changing if S-S from WoW is adopted. You fail to realize that this exact system already exists in a very recent game by the same company. In what way you define this as change is beyond me.
Does it matter one bit where it came from? WoW didn't invent the 1:1 inventory, they didn't invent the hotbar. All this stuff was in previous games working well before WoW. WoW just became more popular do to a lot of other factors like Warcraft fanbase, expansive world, a lot of people like MMO's, etc etc.
god, why cant people understand.
i'm not talking about an invention, i'm talking about change.
Diablo was as it was. With this new system its changing. Is it so hard to understand? Instead to read the damn point you try to argue about the meaning of change. Is that the best you can do?
point well taken.
What you like has mostly to do with your taste and as you said anyone could easily wrap their head around either system very fast.
For me as i tried both systems i find the S-S system better. Its still easy to know which item is which and i can easily arrange things. And if you consider the lack of tradeskill crap that i have to use in WoW for the professions, that would mean alot more room for loots (that will be easier to access in Diablo III too).
what can i say, even though i liked some of the item icons in the past, thats not what i'm mostly interested in. I like to admire my character, not the icons in the inventory (spent some time looking on my character in Oblivion wearing full Daedric Armor... looked awesome!)
No it actually doesn't matter at all where it came from. What matters is that it is being recycled from one immediate generation to the next. Instead, take the idea from Diablo and expound on it with modern ideas and conventions and you get something fresh. "New" is simply taking something old and marrying it with some modern ingenuity.
And I'm not just talking about Diablo, I'm talking about Blizzard games in general. I'm talking about the change from one title to the next regardless of what the title may be. That's all that matters to me.
The old D2 system was used in many games as well. Both ideas are used in many games.
I liked the old system but it was a hassle, most items you wanted to keep took up too much room. Now if they kept the old system and added a bunch more inventory/stash I wouldn't care. I wouldn't have to organize all the time and drop items at every turn.
This of course still wouldn't be a new idea though.
what matters to me (and to most people on this forum) is Diablo III. Thats the next Blizzard game i'm going to buy (Wrath of the Lich King is an expansion so it doesnt count) and thats the game i'm mostly interested in.
If Blizzard decides to invent something for their next game (the Next-Gen-MMO maybe?), so be it! I'll be happy to see the new stuff. But what i saw so far of Diablo III i liked.
Diablo III matters enough to me that I wouldn't like it to recycle mechanics from WoW where not necessary. There are plenty of great unique ideas that previous Diablo games had to create change from WoW and ultimately create a fresh new experience. WoW is very prominent in my mind right now, Diablo 1 & 2 are not. If Blizzard is able to take a modern spin on the older ideas it will be a welcome change.