All these people screaming "too complicated", please, what kind of games are you used to? As a casual player I quit D3 because it was plain and boring, this would truly innovate things! Solid 10/10 would play!
It's a good idea but one thing Diablo needs is longevity, not many people keep playing the game lets say after two weeks into the season. The people who stay are the ones who really want to compete in the ladders and make progress on the GRs, the problem with this system is that people would just hit a soft cap getting all the good stuff, they would do the best GR they can with that and than they would hit a wall because they cannot progress anymore and eventually quit. I think Diablo needs a 180 revamp in order to give more longevity to the game, maybe an expansion or even a new game that can constantly spit content and make some money with that. Right now I can only expect similar patches to what we had so far, new season with some new items, another power creep allowing us to do few GRs higher and that's it.
I'd really like to see the game become more skill based. How about tougher rift guardians and scripted fights? Tiered Guardians fights where you don't move on until you've beaten the previous boss. How about instead of the standard hack and slash guardian fight, we have skills for counter attacking and blocking guardian attacks; timed dodges and more interactive fights would be more interesting to me. Right now, the grind fest really isn't fun at all and the guardians are a joke.
But if people crave complexity, they can get it through the math behind the various stats and theorycraft on their own. They can make their game more complex if they so choose.
The complexity that people are talking about here is not the abundance of skills to choose from but the regular points vs. bonus points and various caps. It would be very difficult to explain this within the game in a concise manner, thus requiring reading outside sources to really understand what's going on. The game has too much of that already. It's not an MMORPG. It's an action game based around one thing and one thing only: killing tons and tons of monsters over and over again to get them to drop a billion things so you can pick a few of those billion things to use. Speed of play is inherent to what makes Diablo, and always has been. The drive should be towards less things, not more things, that aren't in the following categories:
1. Clicking on monsters to kill them
I don't disagree that a change might be needed, but I really think it needs to be simpler than this.
I like most of the proposed Paragon system. The current system of infinite main stat after 800 is imbalanced. When the devs first implemented Paragon 2.0 it was expected to take a long time to reach the 800 plateau and have everything go to main stat but as the power creep has risen, getting to 800 is extremely fast and then it just escalates even faster as you just add more and more main stat. The proposed system eliminates infinite stat boosting and adds a lot of options to focus a build towards, which is what the Paragon system was supposed to be about originally. There will always be an optimal load out of Paragon point allocation if a system like this was implemented, but that is not a bad thing. Unlocking more points per category at certain Paragon levels is a worthy reward for grinding out higher and higher Paragon levels.
I too would love a rework of the Paragon system. You clearly demonstrate that there is room for diversity in the paragon system and i love the idea.
As it stands, all your alts benefit from all you paragon points from level 1, which i find removes the fun in leveling and grinding gear for a build. A change i would love to see, is to have some sort of capped paragon system per character, or a character specific tab, that you fill out prior to getting access to the "general" tabs and the points you have accumulated.
Your first character, a Barb for exmaple, would have grind his Barb points and fill out his "barb tab", which could have stats like main stat(flat or %), LpfS, and other stats specific to a barb or STR toon. There coud be 50-100-X number of character points to grind before accessing, the other general tabs or main paragon system.
Now with your barb, you've played enough to fill your barb tab and have grinded 600 general paragon points. You create an alt, a Wizard. once you hit 70, you'll need to grind the wizard points before getting acces to the 600 general paragon points.
Hope it makes sense.
Or, if you REALLY want to keep the lvling system hard, there is always the option to NOT use the paragon points. No point to taking that away from others when you already have an alternative.
Thanks for all feedback, guys, and taking the time to read it. It's clear that everyone has their own ideas for what they'd like to see happen, and that's cool. This proposed idea would be far from perfect, but all I'd want to see is any system that does 2 things:
1) give me more interesting choices, or any choices at all, which the current paragon system simply doesn't provide past para 600. All those commenting about how it would be "too complicated" - the game is and always will be only as complicated as you want it to be. The game already is quite complicated (if you delve into the deep end of min-maxing, which most people don't, and don't have to). If this alternate para system was implemented, you could simply put points wherever you wanted and it wouldn't matter - only those interested in squeezing out the most of their builds would it matter.
2) disincentivize botting. I do not, and did not, claim that this system would solve botting, although some commenters think I did claim this. Putting some sort of soft cap on paragon WILL disincentivize botting, to a degree. But this will also need to be done in conjunction with other soft caps placed on the other infinite power progression systems.
There's a lot more mess involved with the current implementation though.
Hey rebjorn, thanks for your informative feedback. Yes, I do agree, I would absolutely support a leaderboard adjustment, especially if it was a more technically feasible solution and therefore more likely to occur.
Address the infinite paragon grind which incentivizes botting
I dont mind changing how paragon works, but this has absolutely nothing to do with botting.
Ironically grinding for paragon is the only time when botter dont bot. Because its simply much more efficient to grind paragon by playing yourself on higher greater rift.
What botter do is using bot is farm keys and grind low greater rift for items in preparation for grinding paragon on higher greater rift themselves.
So while this might be a good idea for other reasons, it willl have, imo, zero effect on stopping people from botting.
Why not just disable the paragon system when entering a GR but allowing it for normal play (bounties, neph rifts etc) and rebalance sets/items to tune them to not having a paragon system.
I this is the basis of botting right here. The more you play the more you get, and a bot would let you do things not humanly possible (play for 72 hours straight or during work.) Because of that, I don't think there is a way to effectively kill botting for those who do it.
The best you could do is incentivize things to where people would want to play them self instead of letting the bot do things for them. Unfortunately, to anything where the word 'grind' can be applied, I don't think that is possible.
Grind exp? bot.
Grind mats? bot.
Grind rifts? bot.
I wonder if at some point, blizz will just give up and make a server where botting is allowed, and have bot competitions. Be almost like watching TAS videos, just seeing who can create the best ai for their bot.
Actually this might help with botting, seperate the botters from non botters, get the bot creators to cooperate with blizz which would make it more likely they could cut down botting on the non bot servers while letting the botters have their own way to play.
Unfortunately this would come with a cost, blizz would have to set up this seperate server, and that alone is probably why this wouldn't happen.
Still think it would be worth them looking into.
I feel this discussion needs a bump, because it seems to be the most talked about complaint not discussed at Blizzcon.
My concerns with a suggestion like this is that if you get into that 800-1600 paragon tier, you are gaining so much more than you would from simply getting +5 main stat, due to diminishing returns.
That being said, I would support a system like this if xp was distributed a little differently, because right now it is more so that if you are not a meta pusher, you fall behind regardless of time played.
Not saying it needs to be equal, because I love what Meta pushers do. But some people do not think it should be MANDATORY to subject yourself to that playstyle to compete. Just like it should not be MANDATORY to do set dungeons or level a HC character to complete the season journey (thankfully they removed the HC variable).
I love the work that the OP put into this, I know that Blizzard is aware of this, because they mentioned tweaks and updates to the system. They did also mention that a 800 cap in the current system would be more of a punishment than a fix, and I agree with them.
I think Paragon should stray away from well rounded stat boosts and focus in on character/build flavouring instead. It can still revolve around stats, but don't allow all stats to be maxed out. Gate them like a talent tree system, forcing you to dedicate in one branch of specialization. Reward unique 'Perks' for having certain stat combinations.
Resists are separate categories; Fire, Lightning, Arc/Holy, Frost and Poison. Other stats include Dodge, Armor, Block, Life Regen, etc. Perks (unique bonuses) can be awarded after reaching certain stat requirements. Some powerful perks might come with a pt cost. There may be a limit on the number or total value of perks you can get as well, like only 1 Immunity or only 5 Perks max.
* None of these examples are balanced in any way *
50pts Poison Resist - 5-second Poison Absorb proc when you take over 30% health damage from Poison.
75pts into Poison Resist - Full immunity from Poison (limit 1 Immunity) - or - Provide a Poison Resist aura
50pts Life Regen 75 Poison resist - Heal when taking damage from Poison
25 resist in each element - Bonus 10% to all resists, 10pt Perk cost to unlock
50 block 50 Lit Res - Doubles block amount of Lightning element -or- release Charged Bolts every time you block
Perks would be like a mini Talent system that would make stat allocation a bit more interesting and help support builds as well. If you are a ZDPS build, Resist Aura perks helps ally survivability. If you are a gimmick build that uses element procs, then you want more proc perks. If you just really hate one type of Element without wanting to use the immunity amulets, then feel free to specialize your Paragon Perks to have it. There will be some obvious overlaps with some Legendary effects, but stacking immunities and stacking proc effects is part of the min-maxing that makes Diablo fun anyways.
I think Paragon should stray away from well rounded stat boosts and focus in on character/build flavouring instead. It can still revolve around stats, but don't allow all stats to be maxed out. Gate them like a talent tree system, forcing you to dedicate in one branch of specialization. Reward unique 'Perks' for having certain stat combinations.
Resists are separate categories; Fire, Lightning, Arc/Holy, Frost and Poison. Other stats include Dodge, Armor, Block, Life Regen, etc. Perks (unique bonuses) can be awarded after reaching certain stat requirements. Some powerful perks might come with a pt cost. There may be a limit on the number or total value of perks you can get as well, like only 1 Immunity or only 5 Perks max.
* None of these examples are balanced in any way *
50pts Poison Resist - 5-second Poison Absorb proc when you take over 30% health damage from Poison.
75pts into Poison Resist - Full immunity from Poison (limit 1 Immunity) - or - Provide a Poison Resist aura
50pts Life Regen 75 Poison resist - Heal when taking damage from Poison
25 resist in each element - Bonus 10% to all resists, 10pt Perk cost to unlock
50 block 50 Lit Res - Doubles block amount of Lightning element -or- release Charged Bolts every time you block
Perks would be like a mini Talent system that would make stat allocation a bit more interesting and help support builds as well. If you are a ZDPS build, Resist Aura perks helps ally survivability. If you are a gimmick build that uses element procs, then you want more proc perks. If you just really hate one type of Element without wanting to use the immunity amulets, then feel free to specialize your Paragon Perks to have it. There will be some obvious overlaps with some Legendary effects, but stacking immunities and stacking proc effects is part of the min-maxing that makes Diablo fun anyways.
Really, this^^^^^
They talk about players making decisions, how to distribute paragon would be a great build defining decision to make!
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It would be fun to find the best possible build with limited power (capping paragon) kind of like how we optimize T10 farming.
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remember when there wasn't paragon lvls lol then they added it and it was caped 100 per character lol good ole dayz eh
All these people screaming "too complicated", please, what kind of games are you used to? As a casual player I quit D3 because it was plain and boring, this would truly innovate things! Solid 10/10 would play!
It's a good idea but one thing Diablo needs is longevity, not many people keep playing the game lets say after two weeks into the season. The people who stay are the ones who really want to compete in the ladders and make progress on the GRs, the problem with this system is that people would just hit a soft cap getting all the good stuff, they would do the best GR they can with that and than they would hit a wall because they cannot progress anymore and eventually quit. I think Diablo needs a 180 revamp in order to give more longevity to the game, maybe an expansion or even a new game that can constantly spit content and make some money with that. Right now I can only expect similar patches to what we had so far, new season with some new items, another power creep allowing us to do few GRs higher and that's it.
I'd really like to see the game become more skill based. How about tougher rift guardians and scripted fights? Tiered Guardians fights where you don't move on until you've beaten the previous boss. How about instead of the standard hack and slash guardian fight, we have skills for counter attacking and blocking guardian attacks; timed dodges and more interactive fights would be more interesting to me. Right now, the grind fest really isn't fun at all and the guardians are a joke.
This seems too complicated. I don't want to spend 20 minutes on optimal allocation of points every time I decide to change the set I use.
But if people crave complexity, they can get it through the math behind the various stats and theorycraft on their own. They can make their game more complex if they so choose.
The complexity that people are talking about here is not the abundance of skills to choose from but the regular points vs. bonus points and various caps. It would be very difficult to explain this within the game in a concise manner, thus requiring reading outside sources to really understand what's going on. The game has too much of that already. It's not an MMORPG. It's an action game based around one thing and one thing only: killing tons and tons of monsters over and over again to get them to drop a billion things so you can pick a few of those billion things to use. Speed of play is inherent to what makes Diablo, and always has been. The drive should be towards less things, not more things, that aren't in the following categories:
1. Clicking on monsters to kill them
I don't disagree that a change might be needed, but I really think it needs to be simpler than this.
I like most of the proposed Paragon system. The current system of infinite main stat after 800 is imbalanced. When the devs first implemented Paragon 2.0 it was expected to take a long time to reach the 800 plateau and have everything go to main stat but as the power creep has risen, getting to 800 is extremely fast and then it just escalates even faster as you just add more and more main stat. The proposed system eliminates infinite stat boosting and adds a lot of options to focus a build towards, which is what the Paragon system was supposed to be about originally. There will always be an optimal load out of Paragon point allocation if a system like this was implemented, but that is not a bad thing. Unlocking more points per category at certain Paragon levels is a worthy reward for grinding out higher and higher Paragon levels.
Thanks for all feedback, guys, and taking the time to read it. It's clear that everyone has their own ideas for what they'd like to see happen, and that's cool. This proposed idea would be far from perfect, but all I'd want to see is any system that does 2 things:
1) give me more interesting choices, or any choices at all, which the current paragon system simply doesn't provide past para 600. All those commenting about how it would be "too complicated" - the game is and always will be only as complicated as you want it to be. The game already is quite complicated (if you delve into the deep end of min-maxing, which most people don't, and don't have to). If this alternate para system was implemented, you could simply put points wherever you wanted and it wouldn't matter - only those interested in squeezing out the most of their builds would it matter.
2) disincentivize botting. I do not, and did not, claim that this system would solve botting, although some commenters think I did claim this. Putting some sort of soft cap on paragon WILL disincentivize botting, to a degree. But this will also need to be done in conjunction with other soft caps placed on the other infinite power progression systems.
Hey rebjorn, thanks for your informative feedback. Yes, I do agree, I would absolutely support a leaderboard adjustment, especially if it was a more technically feasible solution and therefore more likely to occur.
I dont mind changing how paragon works, but this has absolutely nothing to do with botting.
Ironically grinding for paragon is the only time when botter dont bot. Because its simply much more efficient to grind paragon by playing yourself on higher greater rift.
What botter do is using bot is farm keys and grind low greater rift for items in preparation for grinding paragon on higher greater rift themselves.
So while this might be a good idea for other reasons, it willl have, imo, zero effect on stopping people from botting.
I usually stop playing at paragon lvl 600, anyone else?
Why not just disable the paragon system when entering a GR but allowing it for normal play (bounties, neph rifts etc) and rebalance sets/items to tune them to not having a paragon system.
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The best you could do is incentivize things to where people would want to play them self instead of letting the bot do things for them. Unfortunately, to anything where the word 'grind' can be applied, I don't think that is possible.
Grind exp? bot.
Grind mats? bot.
Grind rifts? bot.
I wonder if at some point, blizz will just give up and make a server where botting is allowed, and have bot competitions. Be almost like watching TAS videos, just seeing who can create the best ai for their bot.
Actually this might help with botting, seperate the botters from non botters, get the bot creators to cooperate with blizz which would make it more likely they could cut down botting on the non bot servers while letting the botters have their own way to play.
Unfortunately this would come with a cost, blizz would have to set up this seperate server, and that alone is probably why this wouldn't happen.
Still think it would be worth them looking into.
I feel this discussion needs a bump, because it seems to be the most talked about complaint not discussed at Blizzcon.
My concerns with a suggestion like this is that if you get into that 800-1600 paragon tier, you are gaining so much more than you would from simply getting +5 main stat, due to diminishing returns.
That being said, I would support a system like this if xp was distributed a little differently, because right now it is more so that if you are not a meta pusher, you fall behind regardless of time played.
Not saying it needs to be equal, because I love what Meta pushers do. But some people do not think it should be MANDATORY to subject yourself to that playstyle to compete. Just like it should not be MANDATORY to do set dungeons or level a HC character to complete the season journey (thankfully they removed the HC variable).
I love the work that the OP put into this, I know that Blizzard is aware of this, because they mentioned tweaks and updates to the system. They did also mention that a 800 cap in the current system would be more of a punishment than a fix, and I agree with them.
I think Paragon should stray away from well rounded stat boosts and focus in on character/build flavouring instead. It can still revolve around stats, but don't allow all stats to be maxed out. Gate them like a talent tree system, forcing you to dedicate in one branch of specialization. Reward unique 'Perks' for having certain stat combinations.
Resists are separate categories; Fire, Lightning, Arc/Holy, Frost and Poison. Other stats include Dodge, Armor, Block, Life Regen, etc. Perks (unique bonuses) can be awarded after reaching certain stat requirements. Some powerful perks might come with a pt cost. There may be a limit on the number or total value of perks you can get as well, like only 1 Immunity or only 5 Perks max.
* None of these examples are balanced in any way *
50pts Poison Resist - 5-second Poison Absorb proc when you take over 30% health damage from Poison.
75pts into Poison Resist - Full immunity from Poison (limit 1 Immunity) - or - Provide a Poison Resist aura
50pts Life Regen 75 Poison resist - Heal when taking damage from Poison
25 resist in each element - Bonus 10% to all resists, 10pt Perk cost to unlock
50 block 50 Lit Res - Doubles block amount of Lightning element -or- release Charged Bolts every time you block
Perks would be like a mini Talent system that would make stat allocation a bit more interesting and help support builds as well. If you are a ZDPS build, Resist Aura perks helps ally survivability. If you are a gimmick build that uses element procs, then you want more proc perks. If you just really hate one type of Element without wanting to use the immunity amulets, then feel free to specialize your Paragon Perks to have it. There will be some obvious overlaps with some Legendary effects, but stacking immunities and stacking proc effects is part of the min-maxing that makes Diablo fun anyways.
They talk about players making decisions, how to distribute paragon would be a great build defining decision to make!