For a long time now players have recognised that the current paragon system not only has a few problems (the unlimited paragon grind incentivizes botting, for example), but is also pretty uninspiring (you fairly quickly reach the point where you simply max everything, and past 800 you simply add to mainstat). There have been many great ideas put forth by the community to address one or both of these issues, and here I’ve tried to collect a lot of those ideas and combine them together and present them in the form of some colourful pictures (everyone likes pictures).
Don’t worry too much about the particular values suggested for each of the stats – I won’t claim that they’re perfectly balanced, although I did spend a decent amount of time math’ing through them to attempt to balance them, but I could obviously be way off the mark on many of them. If you think any of the numbers are particularly off, throw your feedback this way.
Paragon is divided between ‘Core’ and ‘Bonus’. This simply divides your first 800 paragon levels (Core paragon) from anything above 800 (Bonus paragon).
There are 5 Categories (Offense, Defense, Resource, Utility, Adventure).
There are 10 Stats per category.
Almost all Stats max out at 50 points per Stat (like the current system), with a few exceptions.
While below paragon 800.
Points can be spent on any stat in any category at any time (unlike the current system), up to 200 points per category (like the current system). This equates to being able to max out 16 stats across the 5 categories, and 4 out of 10 stats within a category. So, if using the maximum 200 points per category, only 4 out of 5 categories can be accessed (or, alternatively, one could spread the points across all 5 categories).
Beyond 800 paragon.
The restrictions of 200 points per Category disappear. Perhaps there could be brackets: Paragon 800 – 1600, the cap is increased to 400 points per category; Paragon 1600 – 2400 the cap is increased to 600, etc.
Why the paragon 800 threshold?
This deserves its own separate discussion, but as a basic summary: I feel the general consensus of the community is that there needs to be some ‘restrictions’ in place to curb the incentives for botting i.e. the infinite progression systems that are present in almost every aspect of this game only serve to enhance the benefit botting gives – and botting will never be got rid of (it exists in every game and always will), so one ‘solution’ (the only realistic solution) is to minimise the impact botting has, and minimise the incentives for botting.
So, there’s nothing special about 800 in particular, and the threshold could be set anywhere, but Paragon 800 should be an ‘achievable’ paragon level to reach for most people interested in the leaderboards. Now, what we can do is have some kind of ‘Competitive’ Rift system (which would be the only Rift system tied to leaderboards – there would be no more need to tie Leaderboards to GRifts, which is really getting more and more ridiculous as can be seen by having well-documented botters holding top places on the leaderboards). In this Competitive Rift system your paragon would be capped at this 800 threshold. Outside of this Competitive Rift system (i.e. everywhere we currently play: Adventure Mode, Rifts, Grifts, etc.) players could use their uncapped paragon points. Ideally (and now I’m really digressing here) these Competitive Rifts would not be exactly like current Greater Rifts, with their heavy dependence on RNG – however, that’s definitely a topic for another thread, and I’d settle for the Competitive Rifts being effectively identical to Greater Rifts, and see it as a move in the right direction.
(Another alternative could be simply to have Seasonal paragon cap at 800, while non-season has uncapped paragon.)
In the following images, this player has a Paragon level of 1123, and has currently applied only 200 points of their 800 Core points into the Offense tab, maxing that tab out.They have not placed any more points in any other tabs, leaving 600 Core points to distribute. The 323 (1123 - 323 = 800) Bonus points would not be able to be used while inside a Competitive Rift.
Attack Speed (10% @ 50 points)
Critical Hit Chance (5% @ 50 points)
Critical Hit Damage (50% @ 50 points)
Elemental Damage [10% @ 50 points]
Elite Damage [10% @ 50 points]
Area Damage [10% @ 50 points]
Primary Skill [15% @ 50 points]
Increase all damage of Primary skills, as Depth Diggers and such do. There is a problem deciding on appropriate values due to additive dilution, but oh well.
Secondary Skill [15% @ 50 points]
Increase all damage of your Secondary skills. Same issue with Primary skills: additive dilution with new items in 2.4 increasing Secondary skills damage by up to ~100%.
Pet Damage [10% @ 50 points]
Increase the damage of your Pets. Currently Pet Damage is additive with Elemental damage, which once again makes finding appropriate values difficult.
Cooldown Reduction [10% @ 50 points]
Armor [20% @ 50 points]
Single Resists [250 @ 10 points]
The only stat that maxes out at 10 points instead of 50 points. The idea is that spreading out your points into all the single resists should give you roughly equivalent mitigation as the same number of points put into Armor, while also being able to specialise in particular resistances if one wishes to.
Elite damage reduction [20% @ 40 points]
Maxes out at 40 points. Greater damage reduction than either Armor or All Resists, but specifically for Elite damage.
Ranged/Melee damage reduction [20% @ 50 points] Similar to Elite damage reduction in that each category provides more mitigation than straight Armor, but is specific to a damage type.
Life% [25% @ 50 points]
Vitality [2000 @ 50 points]
Health Globe Bonus [40,000 @ 50 points]
Life per Second [15,000 @ 50 points]
Life per Hit [10,000 @ 50 points]
Life per Kill [10,000 @ 50 points]
Life per Resource Spent [800 @ 50 points]
This one is a bit tricky. Only Barbs, Monks and Crusaders have LpRS, and in different quantities, so the particular value would be adjusted per these classes. For the other 3 classes, either this stat could remain (which might be an interesting option in itself), or could be replaced by Arcane per Crit, Max Discipline, and flat increase in Mana regen for Wiz, DH, and WD respectively.
Resource Cost Reduction [20% @ 50 points]
Primary Resource Generation [25% @ 50 points]
Increases all sources of resource generation/regeneration by 25%.
Max Primary Resource [50 @ 50 points]
Amount varies from class to class, just as in the current system.
Some of these stats are technically ‘Defensive’ or ‘Offensive’, but in the interest of keep 10 stats per category they are placed here.
Dodge [10% @ 50 points]
Thorns [10,000 @ 50 points]
CC Reduction [40% @ 50 points]
Block Chance [10% @ 50 points]
Chance to Bleed for 5 seconds [40% @ 50 points]
Bleed could do 350% weapon damage (the same as the weapon roll), but it would not primarily be for damage, but instead be for use with Pain Enhancer for builds that might not crit.
Chance to Stun [10% @ 50 points]
Chance to Freeze [10% @ 50 points]
Chance to Charm [10% @ 50 points]
Chance to Blind [10% @ 50 points]
Chance to Knockup [10% @ 50 points]
Movement Speed [25% @ 50 points]
Material Multiplier [100% @ 50 points]
Doubles all white, blue, yellow and forgotten soul mats that drop.
Gold Find [50% @ 50 points]
Gem Enhance [15% @ 50 points]
15% increase in the power of all your non-legendary gems, similar to how Leoric’s Crown works, but for all of your sockets. Ideally this would accompany an overhaul of the current non-legendary gems to make all of them more interesting/useful.
Pickup Radius [7 @ 50 points]
Health Globe Chance [100% @ 50 points]
100% increase in base chance to drop HGs (e.g. double health globe amount) – probably shouldn’t interact with Solanium.
Nephalem Globe Chance [100% @ 50 points]
Doubles number of NGs produced. Ideally this would coincide with a rework of NGs, to make them actually good.
Shrine Duration [100% @ 50 points]
Double the duration of shrines (they currently last 2 minutes) – could multiply with Gloves of Worship as well.
Teleport Duration [100% @ 50 points]
Reduction in TP channeling time. Currently channeling lasts 5 seconds. 50% would reduce to 2.5 seconds, 100% would make it instant, like you were using a waypoint.
Follower Damage [100% @ 50 points]
Multiplicative increase in your Follower damage – ideally this would accompany a full rework of Followers that made them actually do non-negligible damage.
While I like the increase in choice, I feel like this does nothing to really address power creep and botting. If anything, I think more people would resort to botting since they could have access to more trait bonuses than before. Sure, people may not be putting paragon into main stat but they would be dumping it into other attributes instead. Essentially, it's just shifting from one place to another. That being said, GREAT JOB on the putting the ideas together and posting it here.
There's no way to address botting other than an aggressive stance against it. You can cap paragon, add variety, it doesn't matter. Bots will simply shift their focus elsewhere. There will always be a huge disparity between bot vs. not. If you capped paragon for instance, you'd soon see 'all in one' bots (there are already bots that do a lot of these things piecemeal) that perfect gear (infinite HFA crafting, low-mid gem ranks for Caldesann's) and provide infinite mats for crafting/rerolling otherwise. That said, a 'solution' like this is something I talked about before but unfortunately it would create a balancing nightmare - as if there isn't enough imbalance already. Cool idea, but highly unlikely.
It's been said 1000 times over already, D3 is not a competitive game, it was never meant to be & it was never made to be. It's a game of chance, with layers upon layers of RNG dictating almost everything, requiring more and more time to marginally improve things. Leaderboards are completely meaningless & even if botting and exploiting didn't exist in the game, that would still be the case because everything is pure RNG mixed with how much of your life you are wasting on grinding. People in here get into debates that are amazing levels of autistic, completely missing the point that it's not a balanced or skill based game at all. You progress purely on the items that drop and their stats & that's it. The chance of that stuff dropping and rolling right is pure luck. The game is competitive in the same way as 10,000 people standing in a room and tossing a coin at the same time to see who is "best" at landing on one side.
It's all pointless anyway, considering that due to Calderon's, botters will just raise all Leg Gem's to 90+ and apply them via
Calderon's on their near-perfectly rolled set pieces, leading to them still dominating all and any leaderboards regardless of competitive paragon limiting.
There is and has only ever been 1 solution to botting, and that is for Bliz to implement a proper & regular detection/ban system. But they wont & never will, so the entire issue is completely and utterly pointless to waste your time being bothered about.
I like the idea, but alot of the "choices" would be ignored and a cookie cutting build would still be the outcome, Personally id like to see the 50 point restriction higher on the current paragon system and possibly for 1 paragon to give 1 point.
Honestly who cares, elitist jerks can do their cookie cutter thing, while the rest of us fun gamers enjoy a bunch of random experiments.
I love a lot of these suggested changes, but above all, what I think needs to happen is that each week should gate how much paragon level can be used inside of a GR. You can continue gaining paragon levels, but lets say you are paragon 350 and week 1 only allows 100 paragon inside of a GR, that is all you can use, end of story. Each week you increase the amount allowed by 100 (100 is arbitrary, it can be whatever the Devs deem reasonable) until the end of the season. If we can expect 3 months, we can expect 13 weeks, meaning that the highest usable paragon would be 1300 paragon during the last week of "the push".
This simply gates the leaderboards to allow the 95% of players that do not bot to actually feel like they are accomplishing something, and it punishes the botters since they will not ban them. Yet the system makes sense in a competitive stand point as well. Almost every leaderboard game has weekly point limits, rating limits, etc.... and many of these games are extremely successful, and I think it would be in D3 as well.
If you pair this sort of progressive gating system with the changes to paragon point distribution above, I feel many people would absolutely fall in love with this game even more so than they are now.
While I like the increase in choice, I feel like this does nothing to really address power creep and botting. If anything, I think more people would resort to botting since they could have access to more trait bonuses than before.
The main idea is that there would be a softcap on paragon for those who want to compete, so botting to get more paragon wouldn't provide an advantage (it would provide advantages in other ways, but each of those other ways requires their own separate solutions).
I love a lot of these suggested changes, but above all, what I think needs to happen is that each week should gate how much paragon level can be used inside of a GR. You can continue gaining paragon levels, but lets say you are paragon 350 and week 1 only allows 100 paragon inside of a GR, that is all you can use, end of story.
Also a decent idea. There are many good ideas like these going around, and Blizz just needs to implement one/several of them.
In my opinion this is awful, and there's no way Blizzard will implement it, and I will explain why.
Let's say that that actual player base is 5 million people, from this number, streamers, competitive and true dedicated players, is like 5% (and this is exagerated, the actual number is less than that), the rest are just casual players, that like the game and the loot, don't even care too much of the mechanichs of all the sets and other stuff.
So if you make this as you posted, you are making it too complicated and overwhelm the majority of the players, will get bored very fast and will go to others games in a breeze, no developer want that, so it won't happen.
Good updates are the ones that make more people ansious too play the game and buy expansions or the game.
I like the idea. However bots will still be extremely useful for farming mats/keys (which is the main goal after reaching a certain paragon treshold) but it's something - whch is something much harder to solve.
The idea of capping paragon for leaderboards is nice, since it gives an easily reachable common ground for everyone wanting to compete - though another issue arises: if we assume all people get the same gear and power (as cookie cutter builds won't cease to exist and most people just go copy/paste no them) then the leaderboards become even more a matter of RNG and fishing for the right rift, since the only upgrade would be the one from legendary gems.
I agree that a baseline soft cap for leaderboards should be added - but i would intevene more on the flavour the paragon system gives getting away from boring stats like chc/chd/cdr and working on nice bonuses like "fire skills have a % chance to set enemies on fire" and creating a perk-like structure (somehting similar to d2 skill trees).
Not bad ideas.. almost anything is better than we have now..
I would also divide the paragon levels we are gaining.
Just make it / 10 .. So 800 would be 80 and 1000 would be 100.
The exp requirements for each level should also even out a bit. 1-10 would of course be quite fast as we have today 1-100.
Each level you gain would however take you much more time than today but it would also reward you for 10x more points. This would IMO make it much more interesting since you are not dinging levels all the time and when you finally do you get rewarded by quite a lot of points.
are fine as they are, only frustrated people unable to get high levels
of paragons can cry and rant against paragons system.
are Diablo and Diablo is Paragons, if u don`t like it change game and
stop cry like a child. Paragons represent how much dedication and
efforts u put in the game and they are more than fine as they are now.
Paragons are NOT Diablo since D3 is the first to have them.
Paragons DO NOT represent dedication, they represent botting and ppl willing to be carried and carry support classes with broken mechanics, so no, they are not fine.
Shrine Duration - I, personally, would just un-nerf Gloves of Worship. When Gloves of Worship were nerfed, Rifts were the only form of end game, along with Ubers, and quickly getting 60 minutes on +25% to most things, as well as the huge bonus empowered gave, well, it was quite OP. Now, with GRs being the end-game, the value of 60 minute shrines isn't as powerful anymore, and can safely be implemented. I would instead change that to Pylon time, as it has an actual effect in the current end-game.
Defense - Your defense slot is lacking imo. Only 4 stats, which meant that once you reached 800, you were basically done with it. I would move either the Life/Vit, or the regen stats from Resource into Defense. Also, note that ranged/melee damage reduction actually affects ALL sources of damage - Even affix damage are divided into either Melee or Ranged damage (Most ground-based effects, such as Molten, Plagued, Poison Enchanted, count as melee, whereas things like Mortar, Orbiter, and Thunderstorm count as ranged.
Double mats - Very, VERY powerful when doing Rifts/Bounties. Basically a free Sages, that stacks with sages, yup.
Increased pickup - why 7? Note that the default pickup radius is 5, which is basically whats directly underneath your feet. An extra pickup of 7 is basically the range that default HoTA can hit. I personally would put it at 25 (.5 per lvl).
I too would love a rework of the Paragon system. You clearly demonstrate that there is room for diversity in the paragon system and i love the idea.
As it stands, all your alts benefit from all you paragon points from level 1, which i find removes the fun in leveling and grinding gear for a build. A change i would love to see, is to have some sort of capped paragon system per character, or a character specific tab, that you fill out prior to getting access to the "general" tabs and the points you have accumulated.
Your first character, a Barb for exmaple, would have grind his Barb points and fill out his "barb tab", which could have stats like main stat(flat or %), LpfS, and other stats specific to a barb or STR toon. There coud be 50-100-X number of character points to grind before accessing, the other general tabs or main paragon system.
Now with your barb, you've played enough to fill your barb tab and have grinded 600 general paragon points. You create an alt, a Wizard. once you hit 70, you'll need to grind the wizard points before getting acces to the 600 general paragon points.
No way. This is way too complicated. It solves a "problem" that exists only for a small percentage of the total players. Theorycrafters always think they'll be super happy if their complicated backend makes its way to the frontend. That might be true for some, but personally I think compelling theorycrafting comes from systems that appear simple on their surface and become complex when you dig in.
I don't know if you guys are in touch with this or not, but the average D3 player can barely wrap their heads around legendary sets and gems and rifts vs. greater rifts and enchanting and cube recipes and seasons. What you identify as a flaw in the game here is a flaw for a playstyle that only a few participate in. For the majority of the population, the main flaw with the game is that it does a terrible job in-game of intuitively taking you through the features and guiding you into set play where your true power unlocks. Therefore, for most players of the game, this would add to the problem they actually have.