Whole 2.3 he telling people "this is the goooo-tooooo build, there is nothing else" and convincing people to play that way.
And now 2.4 he complaining he has no choice?
There is enough choice in D3, but just because it doesnt fit his goal of being top player. doesnt mean its not good changes for casuals.
The funny thing is...almost everyone I meet who says they are casual gets the GR push bug once they acquire gear that mimics a supposed top build. After that all they want to do is get into higher and higher GRs becoming obsessed with having the best gear possible. This makes me believe the idea of calling one's self a casual player is just a front to save face from not having a top build yet. Once someone gets a solid build the casual moniker goes straight out the window.
What do u think they should do ? Blizz made the end game that way, if u want to lvlup gems to cube it, the new meta to get strong, u need to do that.... there is no other otion even if they dont read the forum. Or are u saying that casuals can not go this way because their casuals ?
There is a consequense and a cause. For me consequense is this itemization problem, and its because the INFINITE PARAGON/GR end game. Even if the uniques dont have this 500%dmg , they lack different stats like they had in D2. (Dmg goes to mana, prevent moster heal...). And because with this new 500% dmg increse in one item, the comon Skill dmg roll in armors are really useless.
Another add. If Blizz changes this it and removes big dmg% numbers, will be like saying that they are against the GR thing they made cuz low numbers will kill it. A next season no making the past one. ^^
Would you still be upset if this was put into the Legendary Power Affixes? rather then the Primary Affixes? No you would not because you would see it like most other Legendary items, which would mean most people will cube it for the bonus damage and just use a set over that gear slot.
Blizzard doing what they are doing does many different things, I'm not going to go over it because the fun of theory crafting is working this stuff out your self, But to give a hint, This does a couple small things 1) adds more tail end to gearing as you now have to roll a new Affixes and hope for a good % 2) it stops all these Affixes been just rolled into the Legendary Power, But from Quins crying he wants it too or just keep buffing the skills, which will not work out the way he thinks it does. Those are two points rest you guys can work out your self.
There will always be that one 'best' build in general for each class, but things are not nearly as bad as Quin is saying. The reality is not all of us will get the perfect gear setup so we have to modify the 'best' item build for every class we play along with the skills.
For example, if you look at the Some Page Diablo site for Most Popular Crusader Builds, you'll see that for the #1 build for the top 25% of Crusaders it says "This (skill) build is used by 2.85% of the Top 25% of Crusaders. Including the Build Variants, it is used by 3.55%. The #2 build = 7.56%, the #3 build = 2.92%, the #4 build = 1.75%, and the #5 build = 1.14%. So the top five Softcore Crusader builds for the top 25% of all Softcore Crusaders, including all popular variants, only comes to 16.92%. This means that 83.08% of the top 25% of Softcore Crusaders use other builds and build variants that are not popular enough to get noticed.
I did a little Crusader test a little while ago on my non-season account and pushed the highest rift I could with each of the three sets. I did an old school Akkhan Vacuum build, Shield Bash Roland build, and a few Seeker of the Light variants. All of the gear is more or less similar in quality, mostly ancient with some very nicely rolled normal legendaries in the mix. The results were only three GRs variance, with SotL coming out on top, followed by Roland, followed by Akkhan. This wasn't a hugely scientific study but the differences are there, yes, but not terribly drastic.
So yes, it still matters greatly what actually drops for you. Everyone has to tweak the popular builds with what works for their items' strengths and weaknesses as well as their play style. The stats show that itemization and skill usage has a lot of variance and diversity.
Let's face it guys, D3 future is a snow ball falling down the hill. And devs don't seem to accept dedicated players advices. That's stupid.
You mean players who don't always know what they are talking about? Yes feedback is good but the last thing blizzard should do is listen to it word for word and do it all.
Yes D3 needs still a lot of work and more content, but listening to every cry baby will not do the game any better, What we need is a better system were we can ask blizzard why they do thinks and understand what and why changes are happening to get a deeper understanding of the design of the game.
But seeing you 2 posts I get the feeling you just want to listen to streamers who spend there life playing a games, and thinking they know every thing.
I just have to LoL at this. The whole damn point of the leader board is to find and try to beat "the build". Of course there's only 1 best build, but there are plenty of T10 viable builds.
We're in a much better place than when there was only a couple T6 viable classes.
And every patch brings more viable high torment builds, old unused skills popping up in higher content, people having fun with new stuff years after release.
You know what's going to happen when someone beats Quin on the leader boards? He will look at the build, copy it, and try to do better. If it is consistently better we now have a new best to cry about? No. We're playing the damn game, LoL.
how many items are there with %WoL dmg or %LTK dmg or other skills with the same "problem"? because, if there are multiple items, it's not a problem at all. Small example for those who see 200% on an item and think that's alot.
yes, it's a lot for the first item. it increases your dmg from 100% to 300%. it triples your dmg (ohbabyatriple.mp3).
now what happens if there is a 2nd item with 200%? it increases your damage from 300 to 500% that's an effective inrease of 67%. still good. broken? far from it.
What happens if you have a 3rd item? 500->700%. an increase of 40%. maybe not even the best dps choice anymore.
So, how many %skilldmg items are there?
It is good to see some one who understand how the system works.
how many items are there with %WoL dmg or %LTK dmg or other skills with the same "problem"? because, if there are multiple items, it's not a problem at all. Small example for those who see 200% on an item and think that's alot.
yes, it's a lot for the first item. it increases your dmg from 100% to 300%. it triples your dmg (ohbabyatriple.mp3).
now what happens if there is a 2nd item with 200%? it increases your damage from 300 to 500% that's an effective inrease of 67%. still good. broken? far from it.
What happens if you have a 3rd item? 500->700%. an increase of 40%. maybe not even the best dps choice anymore.
So, how many %skilldmg items are there?
It is good to see some one who understand how the system works.
I'll submit that when it comes to set items, this may add some choice, since the alternative is to replace a good ring (CoE, zodiac, unity, etc) with a x% additive single skill damage. In many cases, you'll still do what you did previously and cube the item with the 5th affix, because rings carry a lot of power.
The issue though, is that there are lots of times (especially with potential LoN builds) where a set item isn't involved, and that removes the ring slot from the equation.
The weapon slot is a great example of this. If a build calls for 2 2-handed legendary weapons, if there are no 5th primary affixes, and just orange affixes, there is some small choice in which you equip/cube. If however, one has a 5th primary, it doesn't matter that it's only an increase of 40% because of other slots having that skill damage, it's 40% damage increase over 0%. You will always have to equip the one that has the 5th primary if you want to be competitive or optimal, and in many cases, a less well rolled one will be better, because 40% increased damage to you primary damage dealer is a lot. The introduction of the cube helped with this problem because it meant you were searching for one of 2 weapons to equip, whichever one you can get to roll better.
It's not a question of best build. For GR's there is always a specific set of legendary powers that need to be used. But, when it comes to the cube, anytime you have 2 legendary powers for the same slot (2 bracers, 2 belts, 2 weapons), 5th primaries remove the ability to choose which is equipped and which is cubed.
Again, it's not much choice. but it is some. The devs are doing well at creating more build diversity and getting some balance between the classes and withing builds for the classes. In that regard, the direction of the game is pretty good. I don't think tweaking the base skills is necessarily the right answer (although I do think some skills have terrible damage for their resource usage, but that is another story). Adding these damage bonuses to the orange affixes solves this particular dilemma , but I don't know that I like just adding damage to orange affixes to make skills competitive either.
So what if this forces you to use a certain item? There will always be a best item for every build, to be honest there was never much variability to begin with. If you think about D2, all everyone ever wanted was a hammerdin with the same damn equipment... nothing else could really compare to that build. What's the difference here?? I still think D3 has many more options in terms of end-game builds compared to D2, regardless of this new addition. There's still a plethora of builds per class that can measure up to each other; so what if certain items are 'locked in' ... idk maybe its cause I'm just a casual player, but I wouldn't go so far as to saying that this change will snowball D3 into failure.... it's come a long way. Like remember when auction house was a thing? yikes
What do you think? I found myself nodding through the entire video.
I found myself shaking my head in dismay. Quin now after probably an untold number of nice videos and heaps of praise and fun little Blizzcon interviews, agrees with the mountain of frustration piled over at the official general discussion forum....its really sad its taken so long. He is only reciting what was painfully obvious years ago.
It's sad to see situations like this, Players that are held in high regard and who hold the game in high regard for insane lengths of time, notice a really goddamn fucking lame issue and then at that moment, so many players are like:
"oooh hey!! he's right!" that thing he noticed IS an issue, blizz please listen to him!!!! fellas lets rally behind that streamer over there!
To summarize the situation in the most diplomatic way, is to just make the exact same mistake Quin is making right now and all the rest of the pro players and all the moderators and all the streamers have made....they cushion the blows for the game. they dismiss its short comings and they shine a light on its strong points.
we've all watched hundreds of videos of noted players on youtube and if you watch long enough the same thing always happens, they let out a long sigh and their eyes drift downward and they mumble something about how maybe perhaps one day items might not fucking blow....I've seen it time and time again...just the most subtle and impotent statement ever about something that's...y'know kind of important to Diablo? items? and their cool interaction with skills? yes?
So now when people hear about the game being "rotten to the core" and the chorus-line of incoming improvements been chewed to bits over in General Discussion, i guess Quin hopefully now understands the environment over more so than he did before coming to this mighty revelation about stacking percents of damage is not exactly the smartest thing to do.....and beyond that anyone even remotely considers themselves a fan of roleplaying games of any stripe perhaps they will be willing to admit that it's a dumb fucking idea.
Yes everything bump. I don't feel like copy/pasting all my stuff and honestly everyting has been said already. Quin is 100% spot on with his rant. They should rather boost the skills themselves.
I don't think so. Remove the WoL dmg from Tzo and there is no reason to wear it (that legendary stat is nice to have, but not so powerful). You would completely destroy those items.
And seriously, those helms aren't even that powerful WITH the %dmg. you have to take rorg with it, losing out on a ring, which means losing either ~50% multiplicative dmg (which is possibly even better than those %additive dmg) or lots of cdr which you might need for a build.
if you want a choice, then this is actually the best option. putting the bonus directly in the skill takes the choice away (Tzo+Rorg is useless). putting the bonus in the legendary stat would take the choice away aswell. Set + Tzo in cube would be the only choice.
there is never a choice if you want to push high grifts, but with the way blizzard does things, at least the difference between the better and the worse itemcombination is not so big.
I think the biggest problem here is that people rant without testing things out. they just see those big numbers and snap.
If you want the maximum choice, you remove the bloated stats from legendaries as a whole. Why do legendenaries need more stats than yellow items? Tell me. The best case and most choice scenario is that items have extremely similar stat pools. If that were the case, you would select items purely for style, legendary altering effects, stat combination or secondaries. The more stats (espeically damage) a single item provides, the fewer the choices get. All the things I listed move to the background because DAMAGES! Damage is king in D3 and thus the item choice/diversity goes down the drain. Hence Quinn's fears are absolutely sound. Item and build diversity never was awesome in D3 and therefore you must admit that further narrowing it down (no matter if it's a big or small deal) doesn't seem that well thought out. It is poor game design by its very definition and just plain lazyness from the item designers.
Seriously, most of these problems are made up because of boredom. Try playing another game once in a while, Blizzard doesn't mind.
Most people don't care to be in the top 10 and seem to realise there is only room for 10 people in the top 10. This is also not an MMORPG game meant to be played for thousands of hours each year, this is an Action RPG meant to climb in and play when you've got a few hours to spend.
Completely agree with this. Most of the so called "issues" with the games arent really an issue for the average joe. When a grinder spends hundreds of hours a month collecting the perfect gear, well obviously at the end of the month, hes gonna have everything ancient with the best rolls. And at that point one build is bound to better than all the other ones, since you cant balance hundreds of items and skill options to yield the same result. And then those grinders start QQing on forums on how the game is not balanced and that the best set is too OP and how Diablo lacks options and content etc etc.
This is happening everywhere however. In each game theres a set of people who play it ad nauseum and then start complaining because its getting stale. Its should be the developers common sense to not give in to ridiculous demands from a super small fraction of players.
Absolutely not. If your statement represents the "average joe" player, then you need to understand that Quin's rant is really there to protect "average joe" players. Like you said "average joe" players don't sink thousands of hours into the game and have not acquired the number of items with the right rolls to even begin the level of combination testing that people like Quin have. His whole point is to make players FEEL like they have options. Everyone is aware that certain builds/sets will always dominate for one reason or another, but being able to use a particular item/set in something above Torment 2 is something that every player deserves. For example, the classic Frostburn+Rimeheart combo (if you don't know what those are, then please avoid arguing with Quin) is really cool but not balanced for high tier play. I have successfully made builds that apply this combo up to t7 before other builds are really necessary for faster farming/safer clear, and that's the mark of some cool non-dominate legendaries. However, I was using sweeping wind with that build and if I had dared to equip anything other than the new Kyoshiro belt, I would automatically be losing out even though I liked using the inna's belt for 6-set bonus. That's the problem that you might not even see coming.
Don't worry they wouldn't let the game get to adventurous. The poor widdle playerbase might get scared and confused !!! they might have to look at a calculator. Oh my word, the HORROR!
The thing is, you insisting that the game cater to your simplified and carefree attitude mandates that anyone who wants something more is sucking rocks.
If players who actually care about the overall quality and depth of the game got their way and items and skills were made more interesting, You and your average kind would still be free to ignore all that you please and piddle around in whatever harmless difficulty you desire.
And for the record you and I are probably about the same distance in grift level, if anything you probably have made it even farther than me.
The notable difference is I want the game to encapsulate and cater to more driven players than I. I want the game to be a better version of itself, not just a better half hour for me to squish some zombies like a 5 year old laughing at the TV......I care about the quality of the game, and the interest level of it's items. its too bad blizzard caters to a globe spanning cluster of players who don't really care...
There is 0 item diversity in this game. And the new change, doesn't change a squat.
Every single one of you who played over paragon 1 knows, that for end-game builds, you have spesific items you must own (obviously with good rolls) to successfuly run high GRs.
Take a good look on the builds page, do you see alot of items diversity? No, you don't!
You can't run with w/e weapons you like on WW Barb. No, you have Bul Kathos for the best WW performance. Sure you can use IK weapon. but it won't be nearly as good.
Same goes for DH current weapon of choice for MS build.
You are in denial, if you think you can choose w/e the fuck you want to wear and get away with the same/better performance on current builds in-game.
itemization only works on Torments.
You cant do much tweaking once we talk GR60+.
This entire thread, along with Quin's, is a waste of time. Unless you're a casual who don't run high GRs and care about minimal gear swapping for gameplay diversity.
This is a horrifically fatalistic perspective on Diablo 3. Yes we're all aware that the cutting edge of play involves using one of a several builds that is proven to be the most effective at GR above 70. However, there is no consensus that the cutting edge is what's losing out here. The people who are losing are the casual and pseudo-casual players who do think about builds and really try to pull something unique together that might work as high as GR50-60, but will never be god-tier. In short, these changes clearly threaten the "illusion of choice" in high-tier play, but they also threaten meaningful choices for lower levels of play.
In contrast, I find the best way to approach these changes is one Quin mentions briefly: why are they adding these buffs? What is the point of making one item outright better than any other item in that slot for a particular build? In the past, it has been because the buff had a tradeoff that changed the the available sets/items that could be equipped with the buff item. Best example is the Fist of Az'Turrasq. This is a one-handed weapon that doubled Exploding Palm damage. That sounds just as broken as the new Tzo Krin's Gaze except that because Fist was ONE-HANDED, the damage calculated by EP would have been LOWER without the buff. So Fist's EP buff was a direct consequence of it's otherwise lower damage, thus the compensatory buff allowed build freedom by giving the player choice over their other one-handed weapon. Really nifty and not broken.
In comparison, items like the new Tzo Krin's Gaze and Kyoshiro's Soul provide their huge damage buffs while taking up a set item slot, which inhibits set completion (that's the tradeoff). However, just as Quin mentioned, the Ring of Royal Grandeur can take care of this issue in case it's a problem. But in the case of Kyoshiro's Soul, that isn't even necessary. It's a belt, which realistically only interferes with two sets that monks might be using and neither is very common (Inna's Raiment or Blackthorn's). So Kyoshiro's Soul may be the most egregious abuse of an item that is outright better in nearly ALL cases if the player is using Sweeping Wind.
So why is blizzard issuing these necessary skill buffs? Like Quin stated, it makes more sense to outright buff the skill, or perhaps add in a leveled-stat scaling (more stat scaling as levels increase) to buff underperforming skills while not making the leveling process unreasonably cookie-cutter.
There is 0 item diversity in this game. And the new change, doesn't change a squat.
Every single one of you who played over paragon 1 knows, that for end-game builds, you have spesific items you must own (obviously with good rolls) to successfuly run high GRs.
Take a good look on the builds page, do you see alot of items diversity? No, you don't!
You can't run with w/e weapons you like on WW Barb. No, you have Bul Kathos for the best WW performance. Sure you can use IK weapon. but it won't be nearly as good.
Same goes for DH current weapon of choice for MS build.
You are in denial, if you think you can choose w/e the fuck you want to wear and get away with the same/better performance on current builds in-game.
itemization only works on Torments.
You cant do much tweaking once we talk GR60+.
This entire thread, along with Quin's, is a waste of time. Unless you're a casual who don't run high GRs and care about minimal gear swapping for gameplay diversity.
This is a horrifically fatalistic perspective on Diablo 3. Yes we're all aware that the cutting edge of play involves using one of a several builds that is proven to be the most effective at GR above 70. However, there is no consensus that the cutting edge is what's losing out here. The people who are losing are the casual and pseudo-casual players who do think about builds and really try to pull something unique together that might work as high as GR50-60, but will never be god-tier. In short, these changes clearly threaten the "illusion of choice" in high-tier play, but they also threaten meaningful choices for lower levels of play.
In contrast, I find the best way to approach these changes is one Quin mentions briefly: why are they adding these buffs? What is the point of making one item outright better than any other item in that slot for a particular build? In the past, it has been because the buff had a tradeoff that changed the the available sets/items that could be equipped with the buff item. Best example is the Fist of Az'Turrasq. This is a one-handed weapon that doubled Exploding Palm damage. That sounds just as broken as the new Tzo Krin's Gaze except that because Fist was ONE-HANDED, the damage calculated by EP would have been LOWER without the buff. So Fist's EP buff was a direct consequence of it's otherwise lower damage, thus the compensatory buff allowed build freedom by giving the player choice over their other one-handed weapon. Really nifty and not broken.
In comparison, items like the new Tzo Krin's Gaze and Kyoshiro's Soul provide their huge damage buffs while taking up a set item slot, which inhibits set completion (that's the tradeoff). However, just as Quin mentioned, the Ring of Royal Grandeur can take care of this issue in case it's a problem. But in the case of Kyoshiro's Soul, that isn't even necessary. It's a belt, which realistically only interferes with two sets that monks might be using and neither is very common (Inna's Raiment or Blackthorn's). So Kyoshiro's Soul may be the most egregious abuse of an item that is outright better in nearly ALL cases if the player is using Sweeping Wind.
So why is blizzard issuing these necessary skill buffs? Like Quin stated, it makes more sense to outright buff the skill, or perhaps add in a leveled-stat scaling (more stat scaling as levels increase) to buff underperforming skills while not making the leveling process unreasonably cookie-cutter.
Gaining gear in this game is a major part of Diablo. Always has been, since Diablo 1.
When a player finds an upgrade, it makes him feel like the world is whole again! And he's happy. Also, it resumes the motivation to keep playing for better and better upgrades.
When you buff a skill, you simply make the character stronger, and the items you find are less and less meaningful because the raw weapon % damage is high to begin with.
The game is not balanced, and will never be with so many classes/items in game. And the items only keep coming as the patches/seasons go on.
So stop whining about items being overpowerd, i dont recall Quin QQing about how ridiculously OP Static Charge was up untill the point they nerfed it.
The guy only wants skill buffs. And SC was a good example why they should buff any of them, and focus on items instead.
I try to see both points here - i find myself in the middle while Quind does in fact make some points i agree with, and some others i don't.
As some others in here, i see that every patch there is more choice and not less in gearing; unfortunately the more choice is tied to new set and "pre-existing" or "premade" builds to which we need to adhere to have any chance at endgame. I can understand the feeling of players being pidgeonholed into something the Blizzard devs have chosen for us and we can just accept it or don't play it.
Unfortunately for us players, there are two things which are facts and cannot be changed:
- "premade" builds makes both set creation and balancing much easier for devs. Having to balance an big number of legendary combinations is much harder thand looking ate some limited number.
- there is place only for 1 best build and one #1 spot on ladders; choice has no room here, either you run with the best stuff or you're behind - that's the nature of competition.
Given this, however i agree that putting all these "XY% more damage on Z skill" is a very bad approach. We have an already limited degree of choice in D3, and this makes only choices narrower because some items become immediately mandatory to equip. Given also how limited we are in slots and how some items are clearly superior than others, we're really making the choice near to non-existent.
The point is that legendary items should have legendary affixes; not "sostrong they cut down competition" affixes.
Let me do an example:
- xbow #1: your cluster arrow generates double the amounts of grenades/rockets.
- xbow #2: your cluster arrow main hit now has a 15 yard radius
- xbow #3: your cluster arrow now leaves a crater at the point of impact, slowing targets inside the area and dealing X00% weapon damage over 4 seconds (damage type changes based on rune)
Balancing issues apart (just thrown random numbers and stuff there), here's what i expect legendary items to do - to add fancy stuff to my skills and not just change dmaage/coist coeafficients so they become suddendly the best efficient skills i can have on my bar.
The three xbows above all increase the CA damage, but in different ways; the #3 could have laess damage to balance the addition of CC. However i can choose either 2 of the three to have a different combo - all will be damage increases, and if balacing is done well, the damage will be the least stat to look at.
So basically the solution to the issue is to remove those passiove additive bonuses, and make more legedaries that overlap each other, so for these limited number of slots we can have a real choice.
I don't see Blizzard completely destroy and redo current itemization system; but having sets to choose from and for each set a number of items to mix up would be definitely better than now.
I agree with Quin IF you are doing high up end game builds but the majority of D3 players are not Paragon 1800+ with rank 90 odd Legendary Gems thus the builds are not so narrow and you don't need to use the gear Quin mentions if you want to do T10 say.
I think because these streamers bring these things to attention that everyone thinks it must get fixed but Blizzard are not just tailoring the game to end game builds, they cater for all casual included.
And therefore the itemization rant doesn't really affect the majority of D3 players on PC/Consoles as much.
But it is an issue for end game builds.
These changes will not affect end-game build diversity, where there is currently none.
- xbow #1: your cluster arrow generates double the amounts of grenades/rockets.
- xbow #2: your cluster arrow main hit now has a 15 yard radius
- xbow #3: your cluster arrow now leaves a crater at the point of impact, slowing targets inside the area and dealing X00% weapon damage over 4 seconds (damage type changes based on rune)
Fundamentally, this is no different than adding XX% damage as far as GR leaderboard goes. It is just cosmetics.
If the best of your three options is the best option overall, then it will become mandatory to any competitive gear.
End-level build diversity can only be achieved via objective diversity and / or tactical diversity. I.e. if different game styles (glass canon vs tank, cc, etc..) can achieve the same clearing speed.
End-level build diversity can only be achieved via objective diversity and / or tactical diversity. I.e. if different game styles (glass canon vs tank, cc, etc..) can achieve the same clearing speed.
^ this.
As long as GR's are the only real end game, diversity will be limited. GR's (or infinitely scaling modes) are fine, as long as they part of a larger end game. Some options for creating build diversity in the game as a whole:
1) Add in other game modes that don't have timers or encourage mobility. Something like defending a Bastions keep from an waves of monsters, where the Keep has a door or something that has life and enemies try to attack it. I'm sure there are lots of other ways to accomplish this goal, that was just for an example.
2) Add in other things (charms, socketables like jewels/runes from D2, crafting mats) that only drop from monsters outside of GRs. This way, GR's are important for leaderboards (if you care about that) and for leg gems, but there is a reason to regular rift or bounty or do some other new game mode as well.
Now you have different objectives (that have different tactical requirements) that influence your builds, creating diversity. Especially since regular rifts and bounties have a ceiling on their difficulty.
The core of the problem is all the D3 team can do is push higher and higher number. The design is flawed.
Next batch, they will probably dig up some skill no one use and then create a few item that add X% to it and make all previous sets/items useless.
There is a consequense and a cause. For me consequense is this itemization problem, and its because the INFINITE PARAGON/GR end game. Even if the uniques dont have this 500%dmg , they lack different stats like they had in D2. (Dmg goes to mana, prevent moster heal...). And because with this new 500% dmg increse in one item, the comon Skill dmg roll in armors are really useless.
Another add. If Blizz changes this it and removes big dmg% numbers, will be like saying that they are against the GR thing they made cuz low numbers will kill it. A next season no making the past one. ^^
Would you still be upset if this was put into the Legendary Power Affixes? rather then the Primary Affixes? No you would not because you would see it like most other Legendary items, which would mean most people will cube it for the bonus damage and just use a set over that gear slot.
Blizzard doing what they are doing does many different things, I'm not going to go over it because the fun of theory crafting is working this stuff out your self, But to give a hint, This does a couple small things 1) adds more tail end to gearing as you now have to roll a new Affixes and hope for a good % 2) it stops all these Affixes been just rolled into the Legendary Power, But from Quins crying he wants it too or just keep buffing the skills, which will not work out the way he thinks it does. Those are two points rest you guys can work out your self.
There will always be that one 'best' build in general for each class, but things are not nearly as bad as Quin is saying. The reality is not all of us will get the perfect gear setup so we have to modify the 'best' item build for every class we play along with the skills.
For example, if you look at the Some Page Diablo site for Most Popular Crusader Builds, you'll see that for the #1 build for the top 25% of Crusaders it says "This (skill) build is used by 2.85% of the Top 25% of Crusaders. Including the Build Variants, it is used by 3.55%. The #2 build = 7.56%, the #3 build = 2.92%, the #4 build = 1.75%, and the #5 build = 1.14%. So the top five Softcore Crusader builds for the top 25% of all Softcore Crusaders, including all popular variants, only comes to 16.92%. This means that 83.08% of the top 25% of Softcore Crusaders use other builds and build variants that are not popular enough to get noticed.
I did a little Crusader test a little while ago on my non-season account and pushed the highest rift I could with each of the three sets. I did an old school Akkhan Vacuum build, Shield Bash Roland build, and a few Seeker of the Light variants. All of the gear is more or less similar in quality, mostly ancient with some very nicely rolled normal legendaries in the mix. The results were only three GRs variance, with SotL coming out on top, followed by Roland, followed by Akkhan. This wasn't a hugely scientific study but the differences are there, yes, but not terribly drastic.
So yes, it still matters greatly what actually drops for you. Everyone has to tweak the popular builds with what works for their items' strengths and weaknesses as well as their play style. The stats show that itemization and skill usage has a lot of variance and diversity.
Yes D3 needs still a lot of work and more content, but listening to every cry baby will not do the game any better, What we need is a better system were we can ask blizzard why they do thinks and understand what and why changes are happening to get a deeper understanding of the design of the game.
But seeing you 2 posts I get the feeling you just want to listen to streamers who spend there life playing a games, and thinking they know every thing.
I just have to LoL at this. The whole damn point of the leader board is to find and try to beat "the build". Of course there's only 1 best build, but there are plenty of T10 viable builds.
We're in a much better place than when there was only a couple T6 viable classes.
And every patch brings more viable high torment builds, old unused skills popping up in higher content, people having fun with new stuff years after release.
You know what's going to happen when someone beats Quin on the leader boards? He will look at the build, copy it, and try to do better. If it is consistently better we now have a new best to cry about? No. We're playing the damn game, LoL.
I'll submit that when it comes to set items, this may add some choice, since the alternative is to replace a good ring (CoE, zodiac, unity, etc) with a x% additive single skill damage. In many cases, you'll still do what you did previously and cube the item with the 5th affix, because rings carry a lot of power.
The issue though, is that there are lots of times (especially with potential LoN builds) where a set item isn't involved, and that removes the ring slot from the equation.
The weapon slot is a great example of this. If a build calls for 2 2-handed legendary weapons, if there are no 5th primary affixes, and just orange affixes, there is some small choice in which you equip/cube. If however, one has a 5th primary, it doesn't matter that it's only an increase of 40% because of other slots having that skill damage, it's 40% damage increase over 0%. You will always have to equip the one that has the 5th primary if you want to be competitive or optimal, and in many cases, a less well rolled one will be better, because 40% increased damage to you primary damage dealer is a lot. The introduction of the cube helped with this problem because it meant you were searching for one of 2 weapons to equip, whichever one you can get to roll better.
It's not a question of best build. For GR's there is always a specific set of legendary powers that need to be used. But, when it comes to the cube, anytime you have 2 legendary powers for the same slot (2 bracers, 2 belts, 2 weapons), 5th primaries remove the ability to choose which is equipped and which is cubed.
Again, it's not much choice. but it is some. The devs are doing well at creating more build diversity and getting some balance between the classes and withing builds for the classes. In that regard, the direction of the game is pretty good. I don't think tweaking the base skills is necessarily the right answer (although I do think some skills have terrible damage for their resource usage, but that is another story). Adding these damage bonuses to the orange affixes solves this particular dilemma , but I don't know that I like just adding damage to orange affixes to make skills competitive either.
So what if this forces you to use a certain item? There will always be a best item for every build, to be honest there was never much variability to begin with. If you think about D2, all everyone ever wanted was a hammerdin with the same damn equipment... nothing else could really compare to that build. What's the difference here?? I still think D3 has many more options in terms of end-game builds compared to D2, regardless of this new addition. There's still a plethora of builds per class that can measure up to each other; so what if certain items are 'locked in' ... idk maybe its cause I'm just a casual player, but I wouldn't go so far as to saying that this change will snowball D3 into failure.... it's come a long way. Like remember when auction house was a thing? yikes
I found myself shaking my head in dismay. Quin now after probably an untold number of nice videos and heaps of praise and fun little Blizzcon interviews, agrees with the mountain of frustration piled over at the official general discussion forum....its really sad its taken so long. He is only reciting what was painfully obvious years ago.
It's sad to see situations like this, Players that are held in high regard and who hold the game in high regard for insane lengths of time, notice a really goddamn fucking lame issue and then at that moment, so many players are like:
"oooh hey!! he's right!" that thing he noticed IS an issue, blizz please listen to him!!!! fellas lets rally behind that streamer over there!
To summarize the situation in the most diplomatic way, is to just make the exact same mistake Quin is making right now and all the rest of the pro players and all the moderators and all the streamers have made....they cushion the blows for the game. they dismiss its short comings and they shine a light on its strong points.
we've all watched hundreds of videos of noted players on youtube and if you watch long enough the same thing always happens, they let out a long sigh and their eyes drift downward and they mumble something about how maybe perhaps one day items might not fucking blow....I've seen it time and time again...just the most subtle and impotent statement ever about something that's...y'know kind of important to Diablo? items? and their cool interaction with skills? yes?
So now when people hear about the game being "rotten to the core" and the chorus-line of incoming improvements been chewed to bits over in General Discussion, i guess Quin hopefully now understands the environment over more so than he did before coming to this mighty revelation about stacking percents of damage is not exactly the smartest thing to do.....and beyond that anyone even remotely considers themselves a fan of roleplaying games of any stripe perhaps they will be willing to admit that it's a dumb fucking idea.
Absolutely not. If your statement represents the "average joe" player, then you need to understand that Quin's rant is really there to protect "average joe" players. Like you said "average joe" players don't sink thousands of hours into the game and have not acquired the number of items with the right rolls to even begin the level of combination testing that people like Quin have. His whole point is to make players FEEL like they have options. Everyone is aware that certain builds/sets will always dominate for one reason or another, but being able to use a particular item/set in something above Torment 2 is something that every player deserves. For example, the classic Frostburn+Rimeheart combo (if you don't know what those are, then please avoid arguing with Quin) is really cool but not balanced for high tier play. I have successfully made builds that apply this combo up to t7 before other builds are really necessary for faster farming/safer clear, and that's the mark of some cool non-dominate legendaries. However, I was using sweeping wind with that build and if I had dared to equip anything other than the new Kyoshiro belt, I would automatically be losing out even though I liked using the inna's belt for 6-set bonus. That's the problem that you might not even see coming.
Don't worry they wouldn't let the game get to adventurous. The poor widdle playerbase might get scared and confused !!! they might have to look at a calculator. Oh my word, the HORROR!
The thing is, you insisting that the game cater to your simplified and carefree attitude mandates that anyone who wants something more is sucking rocks.
If players who actually care about the overall quality and depth of the game got their way and items and skills were made more interesting, You and your average kind would still be free to ignore all that you please and piddle around in whatever harmless difficulty you desire.
And for the record you and I are probably about the same distance in grift level, if anything you probably have made it even farther than me.
The notable difference is I want the game to encapsulate and cater to more driven players than I. I want the game to be a better version of itself, not just a better half hour for me to squish some zombies like a 5 year old laughing at the TV......I care about the quality of the game, and the interest level of it's items. its too bad blizzard caters to a globe spanning cluster of players who don't really care...
In contrast, I find the best way to approach these changes is one Quin mentions briefly: why are they adding these buffs? What is the point of making one item outright better than any other item in that slot for a particular build? In the past, it has been because the buff had a tradeoff that changed the the available sets/items that could be equipped with the buff item. Best example is the Fist of Az'Turrasq. This is a one-handed weapon that doubled Exploding Palm damage. That sounds just as broken as the new Tzo Krin's Gaze except that because Fist was ONE-HANDED, the damage calculated by EP would have been LOWER without the buff. So Fist's EP buff was a direct consequence of it's otherwise lower damage, thus the compensatory buff allowed build freedom by giving the player choice over their other one-handed weapon. Really nifty and not broken.
In comparison, items like the new Tzo Krin's Gaze and Kyoshiro's Soul provide their huge damage buffs while taking up a set item slot, which inhibits set completion (that's the tradeoff). However, just as Quin mentioned, the Ring of Royal Grandeur can take care of this issue in case it's a problem. But in the case of Kyoshiro's Soul, that isn't even necessary. It's a belt, which realistically only interferes with two sets that monks might be using and neither is very common (Inna's Raiment or Blackthorn's). So Kyoshiro's Soul may be the most egregious abuse of an item that is outright better in nearly ALL cases if the player is using Sweeping Wind.
So why is blizzard issuing these necessary skill buffs? Like Quin stated, it makes more sense to outright buff the skill, or perhaps add in a leveled-stat scaling (more stat scaling as levels increase) to buff underperforming skills while not making the leveling process unreasonably cookie-cutter.
When a player finds an upgrade, it makes him feel like the world is whole again! And he's happy. Also, it resumes the motivation to keep playing for better and better upgrades.
When you buff a skill, you simply make the character stronger, and the items you find are less and less meaningful because the raw weapon % damage is high to begin with.
The game is not balanced, and will never be with so many classes/items in game. And the items only keep coming as the patches/seasons go on.
So stop whining about items being overpowerd, i dont recall Quin QQing about how ridiculously OP Static Charge was up untill the point they nerfed it.
The guy only wants skill buffs. And SC was a good example why they should buff any of them, and focus on items instead.
I try to see both points here - i find myself in the middle while Quind does in fact make some points i agree with, and some others i don't.
As some others in here, i see that every patch there is more choice and not less in gearing; unfortunately the more choice is tied to new set and "pre-existing" or "premade" builds to which we need to adhere to have any chance at endgame. I can understand the feeling of players being pidgeonholed into something the Blizzard devs have chosen for us and we can just accept it or don't play it.
Unfortunately for us players, there are two things which are facts and cannot be changed:
- "premade" builds makes both set creation and balancing much easier for devs. Having to balance an big number of legendary combinations is much harder thand looking ate some limited number.
- there is place only for 1 best build and one #1 spot on ladders; choice has no room here, either you run with the best stuff or you're behind - that's the nature of competition.
Given this, however i agree that putting all these "XY% more damage on Z skill" is a very bad approach. We have an already limited degree of choice in D3, and this makes only choices narrower because some items become immediately mandatory to equip. Given also how limited we are in slots and how some items are clearly superior than others, we're really making the choice near to non-existent.
The point is that legendary items should have legendary affixes; not "sostrong they cut down competition" affixes.
Let me do an example:
- xbow #1: your cluster arrow generates double the amounts of grenades/rockets.
- xbow #2: your cluster arrow main hit now has a 15 yard radius
- xbow #3: your cluster arrow now leaves a crater at the point of impact, slowing targets inside the area and dealing X00% weapon damage over 4 seconds (damage type changes based on rune)
Balancing issues apart (just thrown random numbers and stuff there), here's what i expect legendary items to do - to add fancy stuff to my skills and not just change dmaage/coist coeafficients so they become suddendly the best efficient skills i can have on my bar.
The three xbows above all increase the CA damage, but in different ways; the #3 could have laess damage to balance the addition of CC. However i can choose either 2 of the three to have a different combo - all will be damage increases, and if balacing is done well, the damage will be the least stat to look at.
So basically the solution to the issue is to remove those passiove additive bonuses, and make more legedaries that overlap each other, so for these limited number of slots we can have a real choice.
I don't see Blizzard completely destroy and redo current itemization system; but having sets to choose from and for each set a number of items to mix up would be definitely better than now.
If the best of your three options is the best option overall, then it will become mandatory to any competitive gear.
End-level build diversity can only be achieved via objective diversity and / or tactical diversity. I.e. if different game styles (glass canon vs tank, cc, etc..) can achieve the same clearing speed.
^ this.
As long as GR's are the only real end game, diversity will be limited. GR's (or infinitely scaling modes) are fine, as long as they part of a larger end game. Some options for creating build diversity in the game as a whole:
1) Add in other game modes that don't have timers or encourage mobility. Something like defending a Bastions keep from an waves of monsters, where the Keep has a door or something that has life and enemies try to attack it. I'm sure there are lots of other ways to accomplish this goal, that was just for an example.
2) Add in other things (charms, socketables like jewels/runes from D2, crafting mats) that only drop from monsters outside of GRs. This way, GR's are important for leaderboards (if you care about that) and for leg gems, but there is a reason to regular rift or bounty or do some other new game mode as well.
Now you have different objectives (that have different tactical requirements) that influence your builds, creating diversity. Especially since regular rifts and bounties have a ceiling on their difficulty.