What do you think? I found myself nodding through the entire video. As someone who really likes playing around with new builds, who liked to do testing and finding out new stuff, this change is such a turn-off. It aligns with Blizzard's previous design decisions though, and I can see how this appeals to some players (that care less about the endgame than I do - or well, than I did). Still, I think it's something that needs to be discussed. Thoughts?
My response (copied from Reddit): 100% agree. Actually, I think this ruins itemization on so many levels:
As Quin said, it makes certain items "required" for certain builds - just like sets. Utility bonuses (that change the interaction of a certain spell) are almost never required, but can often be replaced with more skillful gameplay. Straight damage increase bonuses, which we've mostly had on sets so far, are just mandatory.
The cube introduced choice - those new items take it away again. Why? Because the damage increase can't be extracted into the Cube. For example, let's take a look at a Uliana's speed farming build that wants to use Lion's Claw+Fist of Az+In-Geom. Three weapons, you can use whichever one you want in the cube right now, and equip your two best ones. Once you add a straight damage bonus to one of those, this is not the case anymore - you remove choice. Even worse in the case of two-handed weapons which greatly reduce your versatility (as Quin showed, you can't use Istvan's anymore with a TR build).
Resurgance of mandatory RoRG for many builds. Quin touched upon this - if you want to make a Wave of Light build, you need Tzo Krin's Gaze just for the straight damage bonus. You also need SWK for the straight damage bonus (because sets are mandatory as well, old story; unless they buff LoN at release). However, the only way to use the set and the helmet is a RoRG. 7 items completely fixed and locked in into your build - just because you decided to make something based on Wave of Light? That's stupid.
Undesirable side effects. Okay, this one is arguable, but it just crossed my mind that you can't make a "real" melee-based WoL build anymore while maintaining maximum DPS. I wonder if there are other examples where items that give you a straight damage bonus come with utility effects that might be undesirable (I can't think of anything, but imagine you have a squishy ranged build that requires you to take an item with a pull-in effect just because of those damage bonuses)
Less room for defensive stats. All those damage bonuses further remove the room for defensive stats on gear. We will likely see people getting into the GR100 range in S5, and we can only imagine how many billions of defense one needs to stack up to survive out there. Problem is, every one of those damage buffs removes another possibility for some defensive stats (because honestly, no one will take 650 vitality over 100% increased skill damage). That again will force players into coming up with gimicky defensive strategies, such as get 5.1% stun/freeze on gloves/belt, find some awkward game mechanic that allows perma stun/freeze, or go back to pre-S4 times where toughness didn't matter and you just hoped to not getting hit even once in the entire rift - entirely neglecting toughness/healing.
Most importantly: it takes away gearing diversity. And that's my biggest concern with Diablo right now in general. LoN was such a fresh breeze, and if they were to nerf sets and buff LoN again there might be hope for S5. But if the patch goes live with those damage numbers not only on sets (500% multiplicative increase here and there) but also a 100% to skills on single legendary items, there won't be much (if any) diversity in gear. Also, since gearing up is so ridiculously easy and it's not the question if you get an item or are able to complete a set, but the question is only how long it'll take you to get a perfectly rolled maxed out ancient item, gear becomes almost "irrelevant" in endgame - it's a fixed entity. What differs are only your gem levels (a measure of playtime and tenacity), paragon levels (same), and how high the augmentations on all your top items are (same).
I don't like this direction Diablo is heading. Maybe I'm the only one, but I was never motivated in D2 to play for a "constant reward loop", i.e., one more level for another 100 Baal runs. What kept me playing was serendipitous discovery. An insanely lucky rare item with godly rolls. One of the elusive high runes that would unlock a new runeword. I felt like Ahab hunting the White Whale, except for I didn't even know exactly what it looked like - but I knew if I kept hunting, I had a chance (not a guarantee) to find it and leapfrog my character power. Diablo 3 doesn't have that anymore AT ALL. Play a day more and you get a guaranteed 50 or so main stat from paragon, in S5 add a guaranteed 200 or so main stat from adding an augmentation to a new item, and the only unknown variable in progress *might* be a new item that yields a 20 main stat increase due to even more perfect rolls. Yay. Does that keep you playing? Good for you then. It doesn't work for me anymore.
Less room for defensive stats. All those damage bonuses further remove the room for defensive stats on gear.
Tell this to Marauder DHs. We got a certain nice belt that allows us to pretty much forgo half of our defenses: Zoey's Secret. After the most recent buff, it gives 8-9% damage reduction per companion. Case to the point, my hastily-built M6 DH on ptr has roughly 3500 vit, no more than 1000 resists and yet I enjoy over 100 million (!) toughness while having passable 1.5 million sheet dps - and that's even before you take the defensive buff of Wraps of Clarity into account. Granted, this still requires RoRG as for the full effect of the belt (which will be in cube as we want the Witching Hour as actual belt) you need The Cloak of Garwulf equipped.
And now lets turn our attention to gimmick construct like chakram m4/s4 with Aquila Cuirass (in cube) and Zoey's Secret as actual belt: with Shadow power on, you get almost 88% damage reduction out of thin air. Permanently as m4/s4 with chakram uses no hatred. 92% while Wraps of Clarity buff is active... DH might go from squishy little thing to a stone wall in 2.4...
There is 0 item diversity in this game. And the new change, doesn't change a squat.
Every single one of you who played over paragon 1 knows, that for end-game builds, you have spesific items you must own (obviously with good rolls) to successfuly run high GRs.
Take a good look on the builds page, do you see alot of items diversity? No, you don't!
You can't run with w/e weapons you like on WW Barb. No, you have Bul Kathos for the best WW performance. Sure you can use IK weapon. but it won't be nearly as good.
Same goes for DH current weapon of choice for MS build.
You are in denial, if you think you can choose w/e the fuck you want to wear and get away with the same/better performance on current builds in-game.
itemization only works on Torments.
You cant do much tweaking once we talk GR60+.
This entire thread, along with Quin's, is a waste of time. Unless you're a casual who don't run high GRs and care about minimal gear swapping for gameplay diversity.
There is 0 item diversity in this game. And the new change, doesn't change a squat.
Every single one of you who played over paragon 1 knows, that for end-game builds, you have spesific items you must own (obviously with good rolls) to successfuly run high GRs.
Take a good look on the builds page, do you see alot of items diversity? No, you don't!
You can't run with w/e weapons you like on WW Barb. No, you have Bul Kathos for the best WW performance. Sure you can use IK weapon. but it won't be nearly as good.
Same goes for DH current weapon of choice for MS build.
You are in denial, if you think you can choose w/e the fuck you want to wear and get away with the same/better performance on current builds in-game.
itemization only works on Torments.
You cant do much tweaking once we talk GR60+.
This entire thread, along with Quin's, is a waste of time. Unless you're a casual who don't run high GRs and care about minimal gear swapping for gameplay diversity.
I just have to agree with this.
Diablo 3's itemization has been an illusion all along. Whatever choices you think you have, there will always be 1) one build that preforms best, and 2) corresponding best-in-slots items for every slot.
The difference is, now we don't need to look out for which build/item choice works best, Blizzard gives a straightforward answer.
For the less casual players, it means you don't have to figure out things. But if you look a tthe build diversity, I'd say less than 0.1% actually had to figure out anything.
For the very casual players, finding one such item will give them a surge in power, with the excitment that usually accompanies that.
In short, this kind of items grants casual players exciting moments in the game, while they just remove "high-lvl" players' illusion of choice. They just don't realize it was just that all along-- an illusion.
Some, like me, like to test different builds and it is true that the possibilities are now more limited. But whoever, like me, tried other things, must have realized how boring it quickly became when these other builds just sucked.
On the other hand, for Blizzard, blocking these item slots makes the game way easier to balance, also with respect to the set dungeons. That means more fun in general.
There is 0 item diversity in this game. And the new change, doesn't change a squat.
Every single one of you who played over paragon 1 knows, that for end-game builds, you have spesific items you must own (obviously with good rolls) to successfuly run high GRs.
Take a good look on the builds page, do you see alot of items diversity? No, you don't!
You can't run with w/e weapons you like on WW Barb. No, you have Bul Kathos for the best WW performance. Sure you can use IK weapon. but it won't be nearly as good.
Same goes for DH current weapon of choice for MS build.
You are in denial, if you think you can choose w/e the fuck you want to wear and get away with the same/better performance on current builds in-game.
itemization only works on Torments.
You cant do much tweaking once we talk GR60+.
This entire thread, along with Quin's, is a waste of time. Unless you're a casual who don't run high GRs and care about minimal gear swapping for gameplay diversity.
I just have to agree with this.
Diablo 3's itemization has been an illusion all along. Whatever choices you think you have, there will always be 1) one build that preforms best, and 2) corresponding best-in-slots items for every slot.
The difference is, now we don't need to look out for which build/item choice works best, Blizzard gives a straightforward answer.
For the less casual players, it means you don't have to figure out things. But if you look a tthe build diversity, I'd say less than 0.1% actually had to figure out anything.
For the very casual players, finding one such item will give them a surge in power, with the excitment that usually accompanies that.
In short, this kind of items grants casual players exciting moments in the game, while they just remove "high-lvl" players' illusion of choice. They just don't realize it was just that all along-- an illusion.
Some, like me, like to test different builds and it is true that the possibilities are now more limited. But whoever, like me, tried other things, must have realized how boring it quickly became when these other builds just sucked.
On the other hand, for Blizzard, blocking these item slots makes the game way easier to balance, also with respect to the set dungeons. That means more fun in general.
This pretty much sums it up.
The original thread should've been about us wanting items diversity, not about how the latest changes effects the current state of the game.
Maybe the heart of the problem is that there is no other worth while game play other than high GRs for leaderboard status and that is why everyone is locked into needing the same build to reach for the top? Speed farming and bounties are just a distraction from the thing players actually care about and that is higher Gr performance. What other activity is the game about? There will always be an idea of an uber build and players will all latch on to it if it is on top of the leaderboards. Achievements, item collections, and time spent getting paragon points are fine and dandy, but all players really care about is the damn leaderboards.
What do you think? I found myself nodding through the entire video. As someone who really likes playing around with new builds, who liked to do testing and finding out new stuff, this change is such a turn-off. It aligns with Blizzard's previous design decisions though, and I can see how this appeals to some players (that care less about the endgame than I do - or well, than I did). Still, I think it's something that needs to be discussed. Thoughts?
I found myself thinking "wow, Quin is either A - dumb or B - a major hypocrite"
Diminishing returns are real, they truly affect the gains you obtain from items at certain points. All these items do is add some efficiency to an item which in return can help you farm other items faster.
Done by simple testing on his first WoL theory, if you equip Convention, hellfire, and 6 piece sunwuko instead of the healm, RoRg, etc... I did around 18% more damage per hit. Thus instantly proving his meaningless rant false, in that they are MANDATORY!
Use damage calculators and in game testing, it proves this theory to be absolutely 100% false.
People made this argument with Barbs saying they would require the use of Gavel if using HoTa. Then people testing the damage returns from using an Ancient Gavel compared to an Ancient IK 2H, and the damage was actually higher if cubing the gavel and equipping the IK due to the stat slots, increase to your ancients damage, and diminishing returns of the initial HoTa increase.
Bottom line, when it comes to additive, you are still far better off sprinkling your damage into many avenues as opposed to one avenue. This is from several factor such as diminishing returns, skill downtime, etc... (skill down time is key for the HoTa comp, because your ancients attack at range, HoTa is melee, thus impacting the model of damage returns.)
What do you think? I found myself nodding through the entire video. As someone who really likes playing around with new builds, who liked to do testing and finding out new stuff, this change is such a turn-off. It aligns with Blizzard's previous design decisions though, and I can see how this appeals to some players (that care less about the endgame than I do - or well, than I did). Still, I think it's something that needs to be discussed. Thoughts?
I found myself thinking "wow, Quin is either A - dumb or B - a major hypocrite"
Diminishing returns are real, they truly affect the gains you obtain from items at certain points. All these items do is add some efficiency to an item which in return can help you farm other items faster.
Done by simple testing on his first WoL theory, if you equip Convention, hellfire, and 6 piece sunwuko instead of the healm, RoRg, etc... I did around 18% more damage per hit. Thus instantly proving his meaningless rant false, in that they are MANDATORY!
Use damage calculators and in game testing, it proves this theory to be absolutely 100% false.
People made this argument with Barbs saying they would require the use of Gavel if using HoTa. Then people testing the damage returns from using an Ancient Gavel compared to an Ancient IK 2H, and the damage was actually higher if cubing the gavel and equipping the IK due to the stat slots, increase to your ancients damage, and diminishing returns of the initial HoTa increase.
Bottom line, when it comes to additive, you are still far better off sprinkling your damage into many avenues as opposed to one avenue. This is from several factor such as diminishing returns, skill downtime, etc... (skill down time is key for the HoTa comp, because your ancients attack at range, HoTa is melee, thus impacting the model of damage returns.)
My response (copied from Reddit): 100% agree. Actually, I think this ruins itemization on so many levels:
Play a day more and you get a guaranteed 50 or so main stat from paragon, in S5 add a guaranteed 200 or so main stat from adding an augmentation to a new item, and the only unknown variable in progress *might* be a new item that yields a 20 main stat increase due to even more perfect rolls. Yay. Does that keep you playing? Good for you then. It doesn't work for me anymore.
I agree, this part is an issue. I do not like that time spent playing trumps quality of gear obtained automatically.
It is my understanding that when they announce the new Xpac next year, they will also have a new system set up, essentially removing Paragon from the game.
Yes, the new Xpac is real, an estimated release of March 2017 has been discussed within the Dev ranks and was overheard by several people at Blizzcon, for instance, comments that said, "wait until Blizzcon 2016 Diablo fans, we will have several things that will blow your socks off!" This leads to an obvious understanding that we will A - get a new Xpac or B - get Diablo 4. The obvious then becomes a new Xpac, because that is the Blizzard model.
Why not add the <% skill damage> to the Legendary Power, so you can extract it along with the Legendary Power and use it in the Kanai's Cube? This should give you more options, right? Or am I overlooking something here?
Yes, that would be a "quick fix". I think it would be a rather boring extracted legendary power, and it would still be "mandatory" because 100-125% is crazy huge (think about how 30-50% increase is usually considered a no-brainer already). But at least it wouldn't lock you in in terms of gearing.
What would you suggest if you could change D3 RoS? Maybe there's a "best of both worlds" out there.
A bit off-topic, sorry about that.
I don't think it's off-topic to provide alternatives when ranting about something - it's actually very constructive. What I want is bring the game back to item hunt. There are several options, and while all have their drawbacks, maybe there is a "best of both worlds" if Blizzard was to think about how to bring the game back to what it originally was (a loot-based ARPG):
1) Introduce super rare, powerful items. Now, the drawback here is that "super rare" is problematic; if it's super rare for the top 1000 players, it means that millions of players will never see it. There are many examples, like a Kukri or WoW in early RoS; a crit Mempo in D3V; an well-rolled/ancient Kridershot in the first few seasons. Those items kept me playing forever - I think I spent 300-500 hours just on my wiz in the summer of 2014 in search of that elusive WoW. Even when it turned out that it's not that OP, it was just that I really really wanted to have it! Note that those items should not buff your damage by 500% or even 100%, but only by something like 20%. That would make it enough to want it - it's the equivalent of one more passive for many classes - but it's not the end of the world if you don't get it. 20% is about one GR level, and even RNG alone can make a difference of several GR levels, so the search for this item will keep you playing, but if you don't get it, you won't feel like you have no chance in achieving your short-term goals either.
2) Less fixed stats/effects on items that are game-defining. For example, when you're really set on a Wave of Light build, the only Spirit Stone you'll ever look at is Tzo Krin's Grace. Unless you are interested in saving items for other potential builds, you might at some point salvage all other helmets unidentified or, as it's the case for many people, not even pick them up anymore. The problem is because you already *know* on which item the only affix is to be found that you want. Why does it need to be that way? Why not more flexibility? Create a pool of legendary items that can have that affix. Items can (and should) still have fixed stats, such as maxed sockets for all items that can have sockets, and obviously main stat. Maybe only 1-2 random rolls per item and make the default rolls good ones (and not crap like on Oculus or RoRG or Zodiac). That would result in people picking up more loot. If you let an affix roll on 2-3 different slots, imagine the variety in gearing!
3) Bring back runewords - of course not as a copy cat of D2 runewords, but in a similar fashion. I think runewords allowed for 3 great things to happen, and here's how I would translate them to D3:
* A very dynamic and refreshing crafting system. The result was not entirely fixed, but varied depending on the base item. In D3, you could allow for any yellow item to become base item for a runeword. To add "rune sockets" to an item, you'd have to use a cube recipe that lets you trade yellow item affixes for those sockets (as many as you like). Let's call them "anchor" to not confuse them with sockets. Here's an example: you find boots with dex, vit, allres, armor, MS. You can choose to add two, three, or four anchors, and you choose which affixes you want to sacrifice to gain those anchors. Could be done via the Mystic or some new vendor, Cain's Ghost or whatever floats your boat. Result? People would check some rare items again (a specific slot for which they have the runeword ingredients).
* The hunt for high-level runes. This was what kept me playing for a long time. If I didn't get all the high runes that I wanted (which was usually the case), I could still use the runes that I had for a "lower level runeword", and those were oftentimes also quite powerful. However, every single boss kill added that little bit of "maybe I'm lucky and get one!". Kind of like random world drops in WoW vanilla. You can't really specifically farm for them (well you could in D2, doing Countess runs) - but just random killing stuff always came with a little bit of hope for more drops. If I kill a monster, I want it to have a chance to drop something useful for me. In D3, killing a monster means it gives me 0.0001% more XP. That's it. There should always be a chance on every monster that a runeword ingredient would drop... whatever you wanna call it. Let's call them "sigils" The drop rates and variety should be very similar to D2 runes, because that was just a damn good system. But I would change one thing: I would not add more to inventory/stash clutter, but create a "spell book" where you can see all your sigils, upgrade them, maybe even downgrade for whatever reason, and so on. Make an interface for that, do not just add another 50 items and make up for it with 35 more stash slots - that's not how you math.
* Runewords provided high-end content for endgame players, but the same system was also very fun for casual players on the lower end (since I played single player or only with one friend and never traded, thus never had access to all the duped runes, I was never even in reach of 1% of Enigma - yet Runewords were the #1 thing that kept me playing). Runewords stand for the one system that allows for content to be added on several levels of gameplay - you can add high-level runewords that are insanely rare which give the paragon 3000 players something to strive for (other than paragon 4000, which we could then get rid of); at the same time, there are worthwhile runewords to be completed on lower levels. Currently, every player from paragon 1000 to paragon 3000 has almost exactly the same gear. The only difference? Better rolls, more paragon, higher gem levels, probably everything ancient. They look exactly the same, but only because of some numbers here and there being 20%-30% higher, one player is working on a GR60 clear while the other is playing GR80+. I can't be the only one who thinks that is stupid? With different runewords (and rare runes, errr I mean sigils) you have something more to look forward to than just "replace item X with one that has 1% CHC, 5% CHD, and 120 main stat more". "Replace" and "upgrade" are not just different words, they also invoke different feelings.
Just some random brainfart, but since you asked... that's what I would do. And that is what I expect from Blizzard, because it's what they have done in the past. Just not increase the numbers everywhere across the board, but change the game.
I've always hated that sets (and now items) had 100%+ multipliers on them. I've always maintained that if they wanted a way to increase damage like that (for a feeling of progression) that it would be better served as an upgrade to the skills themselves, and legendaries should create utility and interactions between skills. I always felt this would make progression smoother, and allow the item game to be interesting, while shifting some of the power to the characters themselves.
An example of this would be that for some resource cost (gold, gems, leg gems, crafting mats, bounty mats), a player could upgrade a skill, like HotA, and the first level would increase it's damage some, and if you liked HotA, you could keep spending resource to upgrade that skill. This adds a resource sink, and creates some decisions between using the mystic and now the cube for items, and increasing power via the skill itself. The cost could go up as you rank each skill, so that there is a time investment to get one (or 6 for a full bar) ranked all the way up.
With the above implemented, legendaries would create interaction between skills or add some utility to some skills, and sets would either have thematic bonuses, or be a place to put bonuses that are cool, but *too* powerful for a single item. Things like having the 3rd hit of generators apply EP, star metal, making WoL a ranged skill, all fall into this pattern. They don't outright make a skill do more damage, but they change gameplay or encourage using 2 types of skills together.
Since there would no longer be multipliers on items or 6pc sets, all sets could only have a 4pc bonus, and the sets could keep their 6 or 7 pcs, allowing for diversity. For instance, Marauders could give all companion runes as a 2pc and the 4pc could make sentries shoot spenders for half damage (or something). If you want to use sentries and a spender, you can use the set. if not, there would be 4 other items that would give you just as much power for a different build (or somewhere within a reasonable range of power).
This to me, solves a couple of problems. One is smoothing out the difficulty curve. Instead of getting a 6pc set and getting 500%+ increased damage, you upgrade a skill or two, getting 50% more damage (or something like that), and that along with an item or 2 can help you climb from T1 to T2, and then you climb as you get enough resources to upgrade skills, or as you find items that create interactions that help you be more efficient. Another is that it moves some of the power to the character themselves. Finally, it creates a resource sink that creates a need for some investment. Unlike a traditional skill tree system, upgrading a skill and then regretting it just means gathering more resources to upgrade another skill. It's a time loss, but that particular character isn't ruined or aynthing.
Adding in some depth to crafting (as Bagstone mentions above) is the other thing that could really help. There are a number of ways to implement it (something akin to runewords works), but in general crafting is a way to allow players to make progress toward specific goal. Runes in D2 were basically crafting materials that could drop nearly anywhere (although there were hot spots) that allowed players to work toward a particular item. It's also a good place to be powerful affixes that don't fit any set thematically, but are too powerful for a legendary. This gives the devs 3 ways to give legendary affixes. And since there are more drops in regular rifts (and doing bounties) than doing Greater rifts, it would give players another reason to want to do those over GR's when they aren't pushing or leveling up a legendary gem for a build they are working on.
Whole 2.3 he telling people "this is the goooo-tooooo build, there is nothing else" and convincing people to play that way.
And now 2.4 he complaining he has no choice?
There is enough choice in D3, but just because it doesnt fit his goal of being top player. doesnt mean its not good changes for casuals.
The funny thing is...almost everyone I meet who says they are casual gets the GR push bug once they acquire gear that mimics a supposed top build. After that all they want to do is get into higher and higher GRs becoming obsessed with having the best gear possible. This makes me believe the idea of calling one's self a casual player is just a front to save face from not having a top build yet. Once someone gets a solid build the casual moniker goes straight out the window.
I agree that by adding item that +X damage to Y skill it is reducing diversity, i believe the idea was if you want to use wave
of light.. You use this helm. If you want kick you switch into that helm... they are trying to provide diversity by skills rather than items.[/p]
One thing I 100% agree with what Quin say is they should fix the
core of the problem (buffing skill damage) rather than giving +1000% for X
skill for items.[/p]
[p]
By giving the base line skill a damage boost, and lesser power
on the item and variation it, it will create a much better variety of game
play.[/p]
[p]hope our voice can get to blizzard[/p]
I dont really understand his point. Last season we had 1 working spec that was dependant on gear. This season we have 3. Next season there will be 7-8.
His monk needs a two weps, a belt and bracers. How is this less diversity?
I dont agree with wyatt much but this goes back to his philosophy that finding a new items allows you to try different builds.
I dont really understand his point. Last season we had 1 working spec that was dependant on gear. This season we have 3. Next season there will be 7-8.
His monk needs a two weps, a belt and bracers. How is this less diversity?
I dont agree with wyatt much but this goes back to his philosophy that finding a new items allows you to try different builds.
There's more diversity than last season as far as potential builds (at least so far in the PTR, and hopefully future PTR patches make it more so), but he's talking about locking in wearing items. The point of the cube was partially to allow you to say, I need this set helm, but I'd like to use this power from this other helm, so I can cube said power. With 2.4's addition of large increases to specific skills as a 5th primary on some gear pieces, there is more need to use that item in the helm slot, which is a step back from what the cube and 2.3 allowed. Part of the cubes appeal was that if you need a set piece and a leg in the same slot, you can cube the power. If you need 2 different leg powers from the same slot, you can equip the better rolled one, and cube the other. Now, one will a large skill % bonus that makes it the obvious one to equip.
In other words, 2.4 is looking to have more different viable builds (Shadow DH, marauders DH, etc), but the ability to gear within a build is becoming less diverse, since equipping sunwuko's helm means 100% less WoL damage.
The wd is probably my favorite class, we have been like this forever. Carnevil, quentzl or mask of jeram.
Like shap said, there is always going to be a best combination of items if your pushing high.
I dont see understand quins reaction when things are getting better, its like he woke up today and wanted the game to be fixed.
Yes everything bump. I don't feel like copy/pasting all my stuff and honestly everyting has been said already. Quin is 100% spot on with his rant. They should rather boost the skills themselves.
There will always be a best combination. This "you are free to choose which items you want" idea is naive. If you want to push high grifts, you have to use a certain equip. Blizzard has two choices:
They either dictate us which items we have to use via "overbuffing" single items or they make all items seemingly similar in power and the players have to and WILL find out which combination is the best. And they decided for the first choice because it has a big advantage:
Blizzard can calculate how powerful the best builds will be and can balance WAAAAAY better around that. With the second choice, they can't balance shit. Best example: Static Charge. It was never planned to be that good and it outperformed basically anything in this season. That's what happens when they don't control our builds!
You're correct about the way the devs seem to be doing their balancing. That's not necessarily what Quin's beef is (at least from what I could tell).
What I saw was this. Let's say you are going to run a WoL wuko build in 2.3. I know that it isn't a great build, but since it's the build Quin used in his rant, I'll use it.
In 2.3, you could equip wuko helm and cube Tzo, or you could choose something else (I'll use Leoric's as an example) and cube one of Tzo/Leorics and wear the other one.
In 2.4, the 5th primary on Tzo is additive damage to WoL that is a pretty large increase. This means that since it's a 5th primary, it makes the most sense to try and equip it over Wuko or Leorics. Thus the option to actually wear wuko and cube Tzo disappears, and you've lost a way to gear. You always needed Wuko and Tzo (or Tzo, RoRG, and Leorics), because as you stated, the devs are pushing sets/item like that, but the cube allowed you to choose how you equipped them.
If you really wanted to make Tzo and Leorics work, you previously could wear whichever one rolled well. If you got a 99-100% leorics with great rolls all around, you could wear it and cube Tzo. With the additive damage as a 5th primary, the only real option for optimization is to wear Tzo and cube Leorics.
It's admittedly not much choice, but it is better than not having one at all.
The wd is probably my favorite class, we have been like this forever. Carnevil, quentzl or mask of jeram.
Like shap said, there is always going to be a best combination of items if your pushing high.
I dont see understand quins reaction when things are getting better, its like he woke up today and wanted the game to be fixed.
Things are getting better in some ways. What he was saying was that this particular method takes away some of the gearing choice that the cube opened up.
Carnevil docs are actually a good example as well, just drive it home. You have to use RoRG because Zuni's is odd, but the current set up is to use whichever of Carn/MoJ that rolls better. If you get a godly MoJ, you can use it and cube Carn. If you get a godly Carn, you cube MoJ. You have a small amount of choice based on your drops for which you wear and which you cube. You always need them both, but which goes where is up to how RNG treats you.
Now imagine that Carnevil received a 5th primary that adds 100% poison dart damage (i don't play WD, but I think this works with the fetish darts, if not, we'll have to pretend). Now, you always, always want to use Carn in the helm slot itself and cube MoJ.
That's what he's saying. 2.4 takes some steps forward, but this is one that kills some of the little choice that 2.3 and the cube brought.
If you haven't yet, watch Quin's video (it's also on the frontpage, so you've probably seen it):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xvyw4YsABY
What do you think? I found myself nodding through the entire video. As someone who really likes playing around with new builds, who liked to do testing and finding out new stuff, this change is such a turn-off. It aligns with Blizzard's previous design decisions though, and I can see how this appeals to some players (that care less about the endgame than I do - or well, than I did). Still, I think it's something that needs to be discussed. Thoughts?
My response (copied from Reddit): 100% agree. Actually, I think this ruins itemization on so many levels:
I don't like this direction Diablo is heading. Maybe I'm the only one, but I was never motivated in D2 to play for a "constant reward loop", i.e., one more level for another 100 Baal runs. What kept me playing was serendipitous discovery. An insanely lucky rare item with godly rolls. One of the elusive high runes that would unlock a new runeword. I felt like Ahab hunting the White Whale, except for I didn't even know exactly what it looked like - but I knew if I kept hunting, I had a chance (not a guarantee) to find it and leapfrog my character power. Diablo 3 doesn't have that anymore AT ALL. Play a day more and you get a guaranteed 50 or so main stat from paragon, in S5 add a guaranteed 200 or so main stat from adding an augmentation to a new item, and the only unknown variable in progress *might* be a new item that yields a 20 main stat increase due to even more perfect rolls. Yay. Does that keep you playing? Good for you then. It doesn't work for me anymore.
And now lets turn our attention to gimmick construct like chakram m4/s4 with Aquila Cuirass (in cube) and Zoey's Secret as actual belt: with Shadow power on, you get almost 88% damage reduction out of thin air. Permanently as m4/s4 with chakram uses no hatred. 92% while Wraps of Clarity buff is active... DH might go from squishy little thing to a stone wall in 2.4...
There is 0 item diversity in this game. And the new change, doesn't change a squat.
Every single one of you who played over paragon 1 knows, that for end-game builds, you have spesific items you must own (obviously with good rolls) to successfuly run high GRs.
Take a good look on the builds page, do you see alot of items diversity? No, you don't!
You can't run with w/e weapons you like on WW Barb. No, you have Bul Kathos for the best WW performance. Sure you can use IK weapon. but it won't be nearly as good.
Same goes for DH current weapon of choice for MS build.
You are in denial, if you think you can choose w/e the fuck you want to wear and get away with the same/better performance on current builds in-game.
itemization only works on Torments.
You cant do much tweaking once we talk GR60+.
This entire thread, along with Quin's, is a waste of time. Unless you're a casual who don't run high GRs and care about minimal gear swapping for gameplay diversity.
I just have to agree with this.
Diablo 3's itemization has been an illusion all along. Whatever choices you think you have, there will always be 1) one build that preforms best, and 2) corresponding best-in-slots items for every slot.
The difference is, now we don't need to look out for which build/item choice works best, Blizzard gives a straightforward answer.
For the less casual players, it means you don't have to figure out things. But if you look a tthe build diversity, I'd say less than 0.1% actually had to figure out anything.
For the very casual players, finding one such item will give them a surge in power, with the excitment that usually accompanies that.
In short, this kind of items grants casual players exciting moments in the game, while they just remove "high-lvl" players' illusion of choice. They just don't realize it was just that all along-- an illusion.
Some, like me, like to test different builds and it is true that the possibilities are now more limited. But whoever, like me, tried other things, must have realized how boring it quickly became when these other builds just sucked.
On the other hand, for Blizzard, blocking these item slots makes the game way easier to balance, also with respect to the set dungeons. That means more fun in general.
This pretty much sums it up.
The original thread should've been about us wanting items diversity, not about how the latest changes effects the current state of the game.
Maybe the heart of the problem is that there is no other worth while game play other than high GRs for leaderboard status and that is why everyone is locked into needing the same build to reach for the top? Speed farming and bounties are just a distraction from the thing players actually care about and that is higher Gr performance. What other activity is the game about? There will always be an idea of an uber build and players will all latch on to it if it is on top of the leaderboards. Achievements, item collections, and time spent getting paragon points are fine and dandy, but all players really care about is the damn leaderboards.
Diminishing returns are real, they truly affect the gains you obtain from items at certain points. All these items do is add some efficiency to an item which in return can help you farm other items faster.
Done by simple testing on his first WoL theory, if you equip Convention, hellfire, and 6 piece sunwuko instead of the healm, RoRg, etc... I did around 18% more damage per hit. Thus instantly proving his meaningless rant false, in that they are MANDATORY!
Use damage calculators and in game testing, it proves this theory to be absolutely 100% false.
People made this argument with Barbs saying they would require the use of Gavel if using HoTa. Then people testing the damage returns from using an Ancient Gavel compared to an Ancient IK 2H, and the damage was actually higher if cubing the gavel and equipping the IK due to the stat slots, increase to your ancients damage, and diminishing returns of the initial HoTa increase.
Bottom line, when it comes to additive, you are still far better off sprinkling your damage into many avenues as opposed to one avenue. This is from several factor such as diminishing returns, skill downtime, etc... (skill down time is key for the HoTa comp, because your ancients attack at range, HoTa is melee, thus impacting the model of damage returns.)
It is my understanding that when they announce the new Xpac next year, they will also have a new system set up, essentially removing Paragon from the game.
Yes, the new Xpac is real, an estimated release of March 2017 has been discussed within the Dev ranks and was overheard by several people at Blizzcon, for instance, comments that said, "wait until Blizzcon 2016 Diablo fans, we will have several things that will blow your socks off!" This leads to an obvious understanding that we will A - get a new Xpac or B - get Diablo 4. The obvious then becomes a new Xpac, because that is the Blizzard model.
Yes, that would be a "quick fix". I think it would be a rather boring extracted legendary power, and it would still be "mandatory" because 100-125% is crazy huge (think about how 30-50% increase is usually considered a no-brainer already). But at least it wouldn't lock you in in terms of gearing.
I don't think it's off-topic to provide alternatives when ranting about something - it's actually very constructive. What I want is bring the game back to item hunt. There are several options, and while all have their drawbacks, maybe there is a "best of both worlds" if Blizzard was to think about how to bring the game back to what it originally was (a loot-based ARPG):
1) Introduce super rare, powerful items. Now, the drawback here is that "super rare" is problematic; if it's super rare for the top 1000 players, it means that millions of players will never see it. There are many examples, like a Kukri or WoW in early RoS; a crit Mempo in D3V; an well-rolled/ancient Kridershot in the first few seasons. Those items kept me playing forever - I think I spent 300-500 hours just on my wiz in the summer of 2014 in search of that elusive WoW. Even when it turned out that it's not that OP, it was just that I really really wanted to have it! Note that those items should not buff your damage by 500% or even 100%, but only by something like 20%. That would make it enough to want it - it's the equivalent of one more passive for many classes - but it's not the end of the world if you don't get it. 20% is about one GR level, and even RNG alone can make a difference of several GR levels, so the search for this item will keep you playing, but if you don't get it, you won't feel like you have no chance in achieving your short-term goals either.
2) Less fixed stats/effects on items that are game-defining. For example, when you're really set on a Wave of Light build, the only Spirit Stone you'll ever look at is Tzo Krin's Grace. Unless you are interested in saving items for other potential builds, you might at some point salvage all other helmets unidentified or, as it's the case for many people, not even pick them up anymore. The problem is because you already *know* on which item the only affix is to be found that you want. Why does it need to be that way? Why not more flexibility? Create a pool of legendary items that can have that affix. Items can (and should) still have fixed stats, such as maxed sockets for all items that can have sockets, and obviously main stat. Maybe only 1-2 random rolls per item and make the default rolls good ones (and not crap like on Oculus or RoRG or Zodiac). That would result in people picking up more loot. If you let an affix roll on 2-3 different slots, imagine the variety in gearing!
3) Bring back runewords - of course not as a copy cat of D2 runewords, but in a similar fashion. I think runewords allowed for 3 great things to happen, and here's how I would translate them to D3:
* A very dynamic and refreshing crafting system. The result was not entirely fixed, but varied depending on the base item. In D3, you could allow for any yellow item to become base item for a runeword. To add "rune sockets" to an item, you'd have to use a cube recipe that lets you trade yellow item affixes for those sockets (as many as you like). Let's call them "anchor" to not confuse them with sockets. Here's an example: you find boots with dex, vit, allres, armor, MS. You can choose to add two, three, or four anchors, and you choose which affixes you want to sacrifice to gain those anchors. Could be done via the Mystic or some new vendor, Cain's Ghost or whatever floats your boat. Result? People would check some rare items again (a specific slot for which they have the runeword ingredients).
* The hunt for high-level runes. This was what kept me playing for a long time. If I didn't get all the high runes that I wanted (which was usually the case), I could still use the runes that I had for a "lower level runeword", and those were oftentimes also quite powerful. However, every single boss kill added that little bit of "maybe I'm lucky and get one!". Kind of like random world drops in WoW vanilla. You can't really specifically farm for them (well you could in D2, doing Countess runs) - but just random killing stuff always came with a little bit of hope for more drops. If I kill a monster, I want it to have a chance to drop something useful for me. In D3, killing a monster means it gives me 0.0001% more XP. That's it. There should always be a chance on every monster that a runeword ingredient would drop... whatever you wanna call it. Let's call them "sigils" The drop rates and variety should be very similar to D2 runes, because that was just a damn good system. But I would change one thing: I would not add more to inventory/stash clutter, but create a "spell book" where you can see all your sigils, upgrade them, maybe even downgrade for whatever reason, and so on. Make an interface for that, do not just add another 50 items and make up for it with 35 more stash slots - that's not how you math.
* Runewords provided high-end content for endgame players, but the same system was also very fun for casual players on the lower end (since I played single player or only with one friend and never traded, thus never had access to all the duped runes, I was never even in reach of 1% of Enigma - yet Runewords were the #1 thing that kept me playing). Runewords stand for the one system that allows for content to be added on several levels of gameplay - you can add high-level runewords that are insanely rare which give the paragon 3000 players something to strive for (other than paragon 4000, which we could then get rid of); at the same time, there are worthwhile runewords to be completed on lower levels. Currently, every player from paragon 1000 to paragon 3000 has almost exactly the same gear. The only difference? Better rolls, more paragon, higher gem levels, probably everything ancient. They look exactly the same, but only because of some numbers here and there being 20%-30% higher, one player is working on a GR60 clear while the other is playing GR80+. I can't be the only one who thinks that is stupid? With different runewords (and rare runes, errr I mean sigils) you have something more to look forward to than just "replace item X with one that has 1% CHC, 5% CHD, and 120 main stat more". "Replace" and "upgrade" are not just different words, they also invoke different feelings.
Just some random brainfart, but since you asked... that's what I would do. And that is what I expect from Blizzard, because it's what they have done in the past. Just not increase the numbers everywhere across the board, but change the game.
I agree with Quin, at least in principle.
I've always hated that sets (and now items) had 100%+ multipliers on them. I've always maintained that if they wanted a way to increase damage like that (for a feeling of progression) that it would be better served as an upgrade to the skills themselves, and legendaries should create utility and interactions between skills. I always felt this would make progression smoother, and allow the item game to be interesting, while shifting some of the power to the characters themselves.
An example of this would be that for some resource cost (gold, gems, leg gems, crafting mats, bounty mats), a player could upgrade a skill, like HotA, and the first level would increase it's damage some, and if you liked HotA, you could keep spending resource to upgrade that skill. This adds a resource sink, and creates some decisions between using the mystic and now the cube for items, and increasing power via the skill itself. The cost could go up as you rank each skill, so that there is a time investment to get one (or 6 for a full bar) ranked all the way up.
With the above implemented, legendaries would create interaction between skills or add some utility to some skills, and sets would either have thematic bonuses, or be a place to put bonuses that are cool, but *too* powerful for a single item. Things like having the 3rd hit of generators apply EP, star metal, making WoL a ranged skill, all fall into this pattern. They don't outright make a skill do more damage, but they change gameplay or encourage using 2 types of skills together.
Since there would no longer be multipliers on items or 6pc sets, all sets could only have a 4pc bonus, and the sets could keep their 6 or 7 pcs, allowing for diversity. For instance, Marauders could give all companion runes as a 2pc and the 4pc could make sentries shoot spenders for half damage (or something). If you want to use sentries and a spender, you can use the set. if not, there would be 4 other items that would give you just as much power for a different build (or somewhere within a reasonable range of power).
This to me, solves a couple of problems. One is smoothing out the difficulty curve. Instead of getting a 6pc set and getting 500%+ increased damage, you upgrade a skill or two, getting 50% more damage (or something like that), and that along with an item or 2 can help you climb from T1 to T2, and then you climb as you get enough resources to upgrade skills, or as you find items that create interactions that help you be more efficient. Another is that it moves some of the power to the character themselves. Finally, it creates a resource sink that creates a need for some investment. Unlike a traditional skill tree system, upgrading a skill and then regretting it just means gathering more resources to upgrade another skill. It's a time loss, but that particular character isn't ruined or aynthing.
Adding in some depth to crafting (as Bagstone mentions above) is the other thing that could really help. There are a number of ways to implement it (something akin to runewords works), but in general crafting is a way to allow players to make progress toward specific goal. Runes in D2 were basically crafting materials that could drop nearly anywhere (although there were hot spots) that allowed players to work toward a particular item. It's also a good place to be powerful affixes that don't fit any set thematically, but are too powerful for a legendary. This gives the devs 3 ways to give legendary affixes. And since there are more drops in regular rifts (and doing bounties) than doing Greater rifts, it would give players another reason to want to do those over GR's when they aren't pushing or leveling up a legendary gem for a build they are working on.
/Rant
of light.. You use this helm. If you want kick you switch into that helm... they are trying to provide diversity by skills rather than items.[/p]
One thing I 100% agree with what Quin say is they should fix the
core of the problem (buffing skill damage) rather than giving +1000% for X
skill for items.[/p] [p] By giving the base line skill a damage boost, and lesser power
on the item and variation it, it will create a much better variety of game
play.[/p]
[p]hope our voice can get to blizzard[/p]
I dont really understand his point. Last season we had 1 working spec that was dependant on gear. This season we have 3. Next season there will be 7-8.
His monk needs a two weps, a belt and bracers. How is this less diversity?
I dont agree with wyatt much but this goes back to his philosophy that finding a new items allows you to try different builds.
In other words, 2.4 is looking to have more different viable builds (Shadow DH, marauders DH, etc), but the ability to gear within a build is becoming less diverse, since equipping sunwuko's helm means 100% less WoL damage.
Like shap said, there is always going to be a best combination of items if your pushing high.
I dont see understand quins reaction when things are getting better, its like he woke up today and wanted the game to be fixed.
Yes everything bump. I don't feel like copy/pasting all my stuff and honestly everyting has been said already. Quin is 100% spot on with his rant. They should rather boost the skills themselves.
You're correct about the way the devs seem to be doing their balancing. That's not necessarily what Quin's beef is (at least from what I could tell).
What I saw was this. Let's say you are going to run a WoL wuko build in 2.3. I know that it isn't a great build, but since it's the build Quin used in his rant, I'll use it.
In 2.3, you could equip wuko helm and cube Tzo, or you could choose something else (I'll use Leoric's as an example) and cube one of Tzo/Leorics and wear the other one.
In 2.4, the 5th primary on Tzo is additive damage to WoL that is a pretty large increase. This means that since it's a 5th primary, it makes the most sense to try and equip it over Wuko or Leorics. Thus the option to actually wear wuko and cube Tzo disappears, and you've lost a way to gear. You always needed Wuko and Tzo (or Tzo, RoRG, and Leorics), because as you stated, the devs are pushing sets/item like that, but the cube allowed you to choose how you equipped them.
If you really wanted to make Tzo and Leorics work, you previously could wear whichever one rolled well. If you got a 99-100% leorics with great rolls all around, you could wear it and cube Tzo. With the additive damage as a 5th primary, the only real option for optimization is to wear Tzo and cube Leorics.
It's admittedly not much choice, but it is better than not having one at all.
Things are getting better in some ways. What he was saying was that this particular method takes away some of the gearing choice that the cube opened up.
Carnevil docs are actually a good example as well, just drive it home. You have to use RoRG because Zuni's is odd, but the current set up is to use whichever of Carn/MoJ that rolls better. If you get a godly MoJ, you can use it and cube Carn. If you get a godly Carn, you cube MoJ. You have a small amount of choice based on your drops for which you wear and which you cube. You always need them both, but which goes where is up to how RNG treats you.
Now imagine that Carnevil received a 5th primary that adds 100% poison dart damage (i don't play WD, but I think this works with the fetish darts, if not, we'll have to pretend). Now, you always, always want to use Carn in the helm slot itself and cube MoJ.
That's what he's saying. 2.4 takes some steps forward, but this is one that kills some of the little choice that 2.3 and the cube brought.
*edited for formatting*
yes those 5th stats do limit Cube use but I don't think it is so simple just to buff base dmg of those skills, it would have much larger impact
Instead of being 5th stat, they should move it (add it) to orange stat so the item can be cubed and we are done
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/iGGi-2191/hero/87768679