What about 1% gold find and 0,1% magic find instead of stats for every paragon level over 1000? Wold be great, and I can't really thing about anything but this that could be awarded as gradual reward other than milestone based ones. Or global paragon meter with paches as milestones that they will be compelled to carry out, with community pool or forum vote based system.
But honestly they just should deal with bots and pay real money for paragon levels Kappa
And by the way, I've spent at least a few thousand hours playing D3, reached the leaderboards in 2 of the 4 seasons, and will continue to play the game, even in its broken state.
I've been a fan of the diablo franchise for as long as I can remember and have very fond memories of playing D1 and D2.
The simple fact remains though, that Paragon leveling is mindless, easy and an absolute requirement to be on the leaderboards. It requires zero skill.
lol again.its not that simple to get on leaderbords even if you have high para ...its a must to have some skills too,for ex : i did go up on leaderboard with my low para (low i meant 1086 then) and did beat a friend of mine (diablo friend) with para 1400 so i quess even if you have high para you still can be a noob like ive seen it before.so again you dont have a clue what you talking about.
And by the way, I've spent at least a few thousand hours playing D3, reached the leaderboards in 2 of the 4 seasons, and will continue to play the game, even in its broken state.
I've been a fan of the diablo franchise for as long as I can remember and have very fond memories of playing D1 and D2.
The simple fact remains though, that Paragon leveling is mindless, easy and an absolute requirement to be on the leaderboards. It requires zero skill.
lol again.its not that simple to get on leaderbords even if you have high para ...its a must to have some skills too,for ex : i did go up on leaderboard with my low para (low i meant 1086 then) and did beat a friend of mine (diablo friend) with para 1400 so i quess even if you have high para you still can be a noob like ive seen it before.so again you dont have a clue what you talking about.
Couldn't agree more, i've ended every era on the wiz leaderboard, currently in the top 60 and i'm not even 1000 Para, but if the players have similar skill playing it's a significant advantage, your friend for example has 2k more mainstat than you, which is roughly 15%+ dmg.
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Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
And by the way, I've spent at least a few thousand hours playing D3, reached the leaderboards in 2 of the 4 seasons, and will continue to play the game, even in its broken state.
I've been a fan of the diablo franchise for as long as I can remember and have very fond memories of playing D1 and D2.
The simple fact remains though, that Paragon leveling is mindless, easy and an absolute requirement to be on the leaderboards. It requires zero skill.
lol again.its not that simple to get on leaderbords even if you have high para ...its a must to have some skills too,for ex : i did go up on leaderboard with my low para (low i meant 1086 then) and did beat a friend of mine (diablo friend) with para 1400 so i quess even if you have high para you still can be a noob like ive seen it before.so again you dont have a clue what you talking about.
It's not skill bud. Its GRift Fishing.
You could complete a higher GRift with a lower Paragon than your buddy with the right Rift conditions.
SO, all that your statement tells me, is either your friend is inadequately fishing rifts for his PL or you got lucky with yours.
The fact still remains that the higher your Paragon, the easier it is to get through higher GR levels with less fishing.
a system that rewards you with a +15/20% stats increase is definitely telling you that it is what they want you to do to be competitive. anything else is semantics and philosophy.
just like the gw2 thing: you don t need ascended, it s bis gear but don t need it...and agony resistance? just skip fotm.
Have you even taken the time to read any of the posts in this thread?
There's plenty of logical reasons as to why people are unhappy with the end game being a mindless xp speed farm.
Do you know the current state of end game requires you to drop the difficulty and speed farm easier content to increase your Paragon levels?
It doesn't make any sense to me when you say only a tiny portion of the player base reaches the leader boards so people should stop complaining about the fact they can't compete. Why even have leaderboards then? What is the purpose of giving the 1% of people who can actually get on the leaderboards a leaderboard?
Why implement a system that at its very core forces players to BOT to achieve a spot on said leaderboards?
The new augmentation of acients should help to alleviate the initial need for Paragon grinding but there will still come a point when PL will be your ultimate end game. Which to me doesn't make sense in a game that is supposedly all about the gear.
Theres a number of things that can be done to address these issues rather then putting caps on/removing Paragon. The current state of the game is being changed with the next patch - With the nerfing of XP zdps, the introduction of Massacre xp multiplies (Thats not up in GRs!), and the huge nerfs to Static AND healing monks, speed-running lower GRs will be a thing of the past (Pre 2.3, while people DID speed run GRs for farm, the GRs would generally only be 5 below your normal GR level, not the current 15 below). With the nerf to healing monks, people won't be able to advance quite as far in GRs (Although the new Kunais will cancel that). The only thing left to do is A) make GR and the equivalent Torment level 100% equal in XP bonus, and Add T20, or at least T15 (Equivalent to GR 95/70, respectively).
Leaderboards existed pre-leaderboards as well - mostly on Diabloprogress.net. It was just brought into the game, and its actually less then the top 1% of players that can get on the leaderboards. Doesn't really matter, it probs took them all of 2 hours of coding to get it up giving that the API was already there.
It also does not force people to bot, as people choose to bot. If only 2 people botted, for instance, they would get high leaderboards, get banned, and get struck from the leaderboards. However, people do choose to bot, and to fix that would, of course, be perma-bans and scripts that break said bots (as well as lawsuits, ect).
And yes, the higher your Paragon, the easier it is to get through higher GR levels - Thats called progression, yea? You get more power, and can accomplish more things, yea?
I made an account just to post this, but it should be pretty obvious that paragon and grifts are designed to support infinite progression, but that these methods of infinite progression are poorly designed when players are effectively rewarded for NOT playing the game. The point remains that farming at difficulties you can faceroll, or just outright botting, takes no skill, has no risk, and yet it seems to be a major deciding factor for who makes the top of the leaderboards. This, to me, makes leaderboards meaningless, and discourages me from playing the game more than anything else. (Actually someone should bother checking whether or not the top players actually have the highest paragon...I know I haven't) I dunno, it always seems like Diablo 3 is doing things that are totally at odds with the core of the gameplay, like the RMAH.
I dunno how to fix, but I def think it's bad! I'm just making this post because I am frustrated at what sounds like people that believe they benefit from this system trying to act like it's not bad in this thread, i.e. Botting is Bad, unequivocally, for the game, for the players, for the everybody!
I'll never for the life of me understand these "WAH! WAH! TAKE AWAY PARAGONS!" kids.
I've literally never heard a one of them come up with a logical reason behind their opinion that didn't essentially come down to, "It's not fair cause people who play way more than others get further in the game". Yet these kids make sooooooo many posts about this crap. As if to make up for their complete lack of reason or rationality they just take to being really loud and insistent.
Let's say we remove paragons. Then what? You get your BiS gear...........then what? No paragons to farm, if you kept grifts you'd essentially reach a brickwall eventually where you'd never be able to progress any further and if you throw grifts out too, then what?
You people whine about "feeling like your on an endless wheel" but your solution to that is just to stop the wheel completely? Just end the game? Make it so that no one has any chance at progressing passed just beating the campaign and getting their best gear? Why?
In what world would that make sense or be preferable to how things are? Why can't these kids comprehend that in ANY game like this the people who spend craptons of hours into it are gonna have more and go further than those who don't? What's unfair about that? When you watch sports do you ever think "Uck, that's not fair. I want to be on the Yankees but I've never played baseball before! It's not fair that these guys who spend all their time playing baseball get to be on a major team and I as someone who doesn't play baseball don't! We should ban baseball!"
Why are we even putting this much weight on leaderboards? Such a teeeeny, tiny % of the playerbase even ever make it to the leaderboards yet we're willing to nerf, cap and destroy entire relevant aspects of the game that are open to a much larger % of the playerbase to give these kids the feeling that it's "more fair" for them. I've never been on the leaderboards and that's my own fault for not being as good or having the same amount of time to put into the game as those that do.
Do they not realize that removing/nerfing/capping paragons and grifts isn't gonna make it so that they can now magically be #1 on leaderboards? The same guys that spend 12 hours a day or whatever farming paragons and pushing grifts would just spend more time than you farming better gear, find more people to share gear with and get further on the boards than you anyway. Then what do we do? Remove RNG gear? Make all legs/sets have the same base stats? Put a cap on the time anyone can play on any given character? When does it end?
Can't we just make a pretend ladder for these kids and photoshop their names on it or jingle keys in front of their face while the rest of us enjoy the game?
I really, really hope Blizzard doesn't take posts like this seriously. These kind of posts make me worry about the future of the game more so than any inherent in-game flaw.
Have you even taken the time to read any of the posts in this thread?
There's plenty of logical reasons as to why people are unhappy with the end game being a mindless xp speed farm.
Do you know the current state of end game requires you to drop the difficulty and speed farm easier content to increase your Paragon levels?
It doesn't make any sense to me when you say only a tiny portion of the player base reaches the leader boards so people should stop complaining about the fact they can't compete. Why even have leaderboards then? What is the purpose of giving the 1% of people who can actually get on the leaderboards a leaderboard?
Why implement a system that at its very core forces players to BOT to achieve a spot on said leaderboards?
The new augmentation of acients should help to alleviate the initial need for Paragon grinding but there will still come a point when PL will be your ultimate end game. Which to me doesn't make sense in a game that is supposedly all about the gear.
Sadly, I have read through most of the replies in this thread. And like this one, not a shred of reasoning beyond "NO FAIR!!!THEY PLAY MORE AND GET FURTHER! NO FAIR!"
Have you ever played any other RPG....ever? You ever have to do that thing where one area is a lil too hard for your guys so you have to go back or stick where you're at for a bit to fight guys and gain levels before you can move on to that next part. And then when you're stronger you can start to gain levels in that new area and so on? It's called grinding. It's admittedly not everyone's cup of tea but it's a big part of some if not most of the most successful and well known rpgs and mmos of all time.
As for leaderboards, if everyone could get on them they wouldn't be LEADERboards would they? The fact that only a small % of players could get on a leaderboard is literally the definition of what a LEADERboard is and part of pretty much ANYTHING competitive be it video games, sports, chess, card games, dance competitions, whatever...
And here's where you really lose me and sorta say something about yourself.
"Why implement a system that at its very core forces players to BOT to achieve a spot on said leaderboards?"
No one's forcing anyone to do anything. If a player chooses to cheat, that's on them. A person wouldn't get far in court saying, "She forced me to rape her cause she was cute and I can't find a date otherwise". Just because competition is hard doesn't justify cheating. Just because a person thinks the game is missing some aspect that they'd like doesn't justify them using illegal 3rd party software to achieve it.
And to those who are cheating, by all means ban everyone of them and strip their names from the boards. I agree something should be done about bots. But not anything that's going to punish legitimate players. And I think it's pretty weak how many people use botting as an excuse to justify literally ANYTHING they want changed about the game. Like seriously, I've yet to see a single debate on any aspect of Diablo where at least 1 person didn't say "Oh well (insert topic) is because of botting" or "We should change (insert topic) because of botting". Hell, I've seen them say that more stash is bad because of botting......
Let's say we remove paragons. Then what? You get your BiS gear...........then what? No paragons to farm, if you kept grifts you'd essentially reach a brickwall eventually where you'd never be able to progress any further and if you throw grifts out too, then what?
And after how many playtime hours during a 3 month season do you reach that point? Nobody said anything about capping non-season. So, the super serious sibling gamers might reach that plvl and (almost) BiS equipment in a week. What's the matter? Others will reach that point too and then it's up to practice and creativity.
I can turn your Yankees analogy around by pointing out that they get that good via practice. It's not like they're getting bigger bats if they have their little brother run extra laps around the stadium during offtime hours.
And when those "super serious sibling gamers" get that much further ahead, have better gear, a better clan and end up keeping you from being #1 leaderboards again with or without paragons, then what do we do for you?
Do we need to set time limits? If a player gets too far ahead of anyone, should they not be allowed to play so that everyone can catch up?
There's a fine line between "make it fair" and "GIVE IT TO ME!!! CAUSE I WANT IT!!!". People need to face that they might not have the time or skill to make it to leaderboards, that's life. And again, this is coming from someone who's never been on the leaderboards either.
I don't mean any disrespect but it seems that anytime a anti-paragoner can't convince someone with the "its not fair!" argument, they resort to "but bots!". Of course I'm all for getting rid of botting. And I understand that there are people who are cheating/botting to make it to leaderboards.
But you're essentially justifying their actions by just getting rid of what they're after as opposed to actually you know....getting rid of the botters. Why should honest players have to be punished because of what they do?
Giving botters less reason to bot literally gives real players less reason to play. I know it's easier said than done, but I'd like to imagine Blizzard would eventually be able to get rid of botters without having to alter the game to make it less desirable to play. That's just ridiculous.
Cains/borns and ruby in helms are getting nerfed in 2.4. Monster kill xp is getting buffed to 50%.
This is for sure happening in 2.4?
Still does not change the fact that groups will be 3-4 times higher than solo players, when in reality it should only be 2 times higher at most.
I still argue that 20-40% is the most logical, aka 2-4 players * 10%. And lets be real, even if there is a nerf to xp gains, in the end it will not be enough without a 800 paragon cap for in seasons only.
What? Seriously, what?
Diablo 3 is a multiplayer game. Making a group of 4 players only gain twice as much xp as a single player, and you would have to ask yourself WHY you would ever, EVER do multiplayer, as you are essentially gimping yourself.
Also, groups are not 3-4 times faster at lvling then solo players, try around 10-15x faster.
Imo, while the difference shouldn't be no 10-15x faster in MP, it should be at, the VERY least, 5x faster to do MP then to do SP, for all things.
So much stupid self-entitlement in this thread that has absolutely no basis or explanations. Theres a few wise posters, but most people are coming across as self-entitled pricks, of the same vein of people who live on welfare.
Not really, because you get 40% more xp, 40% more chance to drop legendary items, and very likely faster more efficient clears, as you said.
There is plenty of incentive to group beyond just getting more XP. And even if XP was equal for grouping and solo, most players would still group for the sake of more items and faster runs. So why punish those that want to do it a different way? All because your view differs, it does not mean there is "stupid entitlement etc....". It simply means that people are expressing their views.
I would also advise that you read a post more thoroughly before you make erroneous assumptions, like saying I said groups only get 3-4 times more xp, because that is clearly not what the context was, the context was within a previously presented change, so do yourself a favor and read everything as to not look foolish. When you factor in that they are cutting monster health in half for solo players, then factor in a nearly 200% deduction to bonus xp available in groups (borns, cains, ruby in helm, etc..), but an increase in overall xp gained you get a scenario where groups will still farm paragon around 3-4 times faster than a solo player, but at least the gap shrinks.
I cherish everyone's opinion, but refrain from personal attacks Okakeri
I don't mean any disrespect but it seems that anytime a anti-paragoner can't convince someone with the "its not fair!" argument, they resort to "but bots!". Of course I'm all for getting rid of botting. And I understand that there are people who are cheating/botting to make it to leaderboards.
Maybe you don't understand the scale of the issue that is botting (and thud for that matter). If there were visible flags on the leaderboards showing which accounts used either, you'd hardly find anyone without such a flag. It's not like a small minority exploits those things to "compete".
You're right that the gameplay component of getting experience and thus progressing your character isn't directly connected to that and that good things shouldn't be harmed just because of cheaters.
But think about actual paragon leveling: Which level have you reached this season? Is it fun to chase from 1445 to 1446? I don't think, people love to do that all day, especially those who don't bot trying desperately to catch up(see that letter thread).
Capping it for season only at a sane point would be such a minor intrusion, yet on the plus side would remove most of the advantage of bots. I can also imagine many top competitors rejoicing when they won't get up in the morning with a day of 16 hours of grinding waiting for them.
Is it fun to chase from 1445 to 1446? Would it be more fun to chase from 1445 to 1446 if Paragon was nerfed to give less mainstats or even capped?
Less reward for something that is not fun in the first place can actually have a positive effect by reducing the incentive to pursue that thing.
That's THE question that drives development: Would the change be fun? Would people still play the game if Paragon was capped or would they lose interest? If people keep playing, then it's safe to assume that it's fun, because if you keep playing although you don't like it, then what are you even doing with your life?
Better hope that Blizz doesn't measure their changes by the amount of time being spent ingame. That might very well go down without the "need" to grind plvl, especially from those loyal accounts that are online 24 hours. It's the quality of the time spent playing that matters.
And to think that people would still be playing for many hours without getting ANYTHING out of the game (because equip and level are maxed out) is very naive.
Don't agree with naive, but yes, this has been the reason for introducing infinite plvl in the first place. However imo it turned out as a failure. The role model of D2s almost infinite exp progression that did have a cap, was better. They just need to find a cap that's comparable to D2s lvl 99.
Cap for season (between 1000-1500), for non season can be unlimited.
Can be cap to 1000-1500 in season and be equivalent of 1500-2000( get 10-25 instead of 5 or something like this if cap is 1000-1500).
Other solution is cap just for leaderboards...something like "ProvingGrounds for WoW" (in WoW items is scale down to 463 item lvl).
For Diablo 3 can be like this: you have 2000 paragon in season but want to participate in leaderboards when you do solo GRs, the paragon is capped between 1000-1500 and when you don't GRs, etc, you still have 2000 and can go higher paragons...
I would prefer the 3rd one..
I like to push seasons for solo leaderboards and usually finish season top 50-250 for monk, etc... but I want to be able to finish 10-100 and to grind paragons all the time is not a solution for me.
Yeah, there's literally only those 3 options to chose from. Nothing else.
Here's some options I think might be better than those you've mentioned.
1. Doing absolutely nothing
2. Ban all the botters and give the anti-paragon kids no more excuses for their failure at achieving a spot on boards.
If we cap Paragon on grifts, what's the point of having them work outside of grifts? Are you going to need to be paragon 4k to farm T7 bounties or play TX Rifts? If we brought up the torment levels to 20+ would these kids start whining that Torment levels are too high and unfair now?
If you can't finish 10-100, that's your own fault. You're not good enough. Neither am I, that's life.
I don't mean any disrespect but it seems that anytime a anti-paragoner can't convince someone with the "its not fair!" argument, they resort to "but bots!". Of course I'm all for getting rid of botting. And I understand that there are people who are cheating/botting to make it to leaderboards.
Maybe you don't understand the scale of the issue that is botting (and thud for that matter). If there were visible flags on the leaderboards showing which accounts used either, you'd hardly find anyone without such a flag. It's not like a small minority exploits those things to "compete".
You're right that the gameplay component of getting experience and thus progressing your character isn't directly connected to that and that good things shouldn't be harmed just because of cheaters.
But think about actual paragon leveling: Which level have you reached this season? Is it fun to chase from 1445 to 1446? I don't think, people love to do that all day, especially those who don't bot trying desperately to catch up(see that letter thread).
Capping it for season only at a sane point would be such a minor intrusion, yet on the plus side would remove most of the advantage of bots. I can also imagine many top competitors rejoicing when they won't get up in the morning with a day of 16 hours of grinding waiting for them.
If we cap paragon at 1k, then all the kids at 400 paragon will start whining that only players with 1k paragon are on top and now that's unfair.
Is grinding for paragon the single most fun aspect of Diablo 3, of course not. But combined with trying new builds, the possibility of getting new/better gear, and playing with a good group to push grifts/do rifts/ubers/bounties it makes it so that even the most hardcore players will always theoretically have a reason to keep playing.
"I can also imagine many top competitors rejoicing when they won't get up in the morning with a day of 16 hours of grinding waiting for them."
Yeah, that's just what people want in a game. They want to think to themselves "Cool, the developers made it so that's there's no reason for me to play this game anymore!" That's just what rational gamers are looking for in a game, more reasons to not play it.
Remove bonus after 800 for grift, and make grift more skill-based to give a reason for people to keep going at them.
end-game would be skilled based with the occasional upgrade to gems or gear
this would be an ideal solution. How to implement such a change is a different question altogether and certainly won't happen in our lifetime. Basically this would require elites to be more deadly but allow skillful play to evade the incoming damage.
i find it sad that blizzard never really went into that direction and kept with the mindless grind.
i quit the game every season when I feel I am too far behind to even have a tiny chance to make back to the leaderboard. Which is fine, as it makes me do other things in my life
Here's some options I think might be better than those you've mentioned.
1. Doing absolutely nothing
2. Ban all the botters and give the anti-paragon kids no more excuses for their failure at achieving a spot on boards.
1 accomplishes nothing and 2 is super-naive. Of course it'd be the best scenario to remove the predators, but in absence of that possibility, Blizz might as well limit their prey. Though botting is not the only issue. It's also nice to not have to log your meta char 24/7 until a week before the season ends to then push for your final rank.
If we cap Paragon on grifts, what's the point of having them work outside of grifts? Are you going to need to be paragon 4k to farm T7 bounties or play TX Rifts? If we brought up the torment levels to 20+ would these kids start whining that Torment levels are too high and unfair now?
Might overthink your choice of words if you want to be taken seriously. I agree that having higher plvl for non-gr content is pointless, I'd make the distinction between season and non-season. Go ahead and accumulate plvl 10k there through your various seasonal chars.
If we cap paragon at 1k, then all the kids at 400 paragon will start whining that only players with 1k paragon are on top and now that's unfair.
Won't please everyone, but I don't expect the people arguing here to actually act that childish
Is grinding for paragon the single most fun aspect of Diablo 3, of course not. But combined with trying new builds, the possibility of getting new/better gear, and playing with a good group to push grifts/do rifts/ubers/bounties it makes it so that even the most hardcore players will always theoretically have a reason to keep playing.
Trying new builds? Farming ubers? Enjoying the game? Interesting ideas. How about not possible because it costs x amount of experience? Someone like me wouldn't care, but those truly competitive guys shouldn't "waste" too much time on having fun. And that's the other core problem.
I personally would love to see Pl tiered leaderboards implemented. For example, Pl 500-599, 600 - 699 so on so forth. Then add the option to no longer gain xp in game to effectively allow twinking
That way (2 jobs 2kids) Bob and (nolifier) Joe can be rank 1 of their respective brackets.
Leaderboards, as a form of pvp(ve), if you really want to "reward" who deserves ot, should be independent from exp and other stuff.
make people start from the same condition, with a wider choice of builds and better rng/class balance not tightly linked to grind...then see who is the best.
but d3 is not this kind of game.
moba s are competitive. fps. not arpgs.
competition and farming are opposites. farming goes with bots and no life, not with player skill.
and an endless exp farming is not endgame, is just a stick with a rotting carrot.
I don't care about competition so ok....the issue is that there is nothing else to do ingame because the "true game" is grinding pl, copy-paste builds. nothing else to do, at the moment.
Cains/borns and ruby in helms are getting nerfed in 2.4. Monster kill xp is getting buffed to 50%.
This is for sure happening in 2.4?
Still does not change the fact that groups will be 3-4 times higher than solo players, when in reality it should only be 2 times higher at most.
I still argue that 20-40% is the most logical, aka 2-4 players * 10%. And lets be real, even if there is a nerf to xp gains, in the end it will not be enough without a 800 paragon cap for in seasons only.
What? Seriously, what?
Diablo 3 is a multiplayer game. Making a group of 4 players only gain twice as much xp as a single player, and you would have to ask yourself WHY you would ever, EVER do multiplayer, as you are essentially gimping yourself.
Also, groups are not 3-4 times faster at lvling then solo players, try around 10-15x faster.
Imo, while the difference shouldn't be no 10-15x faster in MP, it should be at, the VERY least, 5x faster to do MP then to do SP, for all things.
So much stupid self-entitlement in this thread that has absolutely no basis or explanations. Theres a few wise posters, but most people are coming across as self-entitled pricks, of the same vein of people who live on welfare.
Not really, because you get 40% more xp, 40% more chance to drop legendary items, and very likely faster more efficient clears, as you said.
There is plenty of incentive to group beyond just getting more XP. And even if XP was equal for grouping and solo, most players would still group for the sake of more items and faster runs. So why punish those that want to do it a different way? All because your view differs, it does not mean there is "stupid entitlement etc....". It simply means that people are expressing their views.
I would also advise that you read a post more thoroughly before you make erroneous assumptions, like saying I said groups only get 3-4 times more xp, because that is clearly not what the context was, the context was within a previously presented change, so do yourself a favor and read everything as to not look foolish. When you factor in that they are cutting monster health in half for solo players, then factor in a nearly 200% deduction to bonus xp available in groups (borns, cains, ruby in helm, etc..), but an increase in overall xp gained you get a scenario where groups will still farm paragon around 3-4 times faster than a solo player, but at least the gap shrinks.
I cherish everyone's opinion, but refrain from personal attacks Okakeri
Yea, I did get a bit too personal with those posts. The poster I quoted seemed to have wanted a 4 player group to only yield 2x the rewards of a solo player, which is too small a bonus. In Diablo, multiplayer should always reward significantly higher rewards. I also stated that while the current bonus for grouping IS much too high right now (Which is why blizzard is nerfing some current MP builds, and buffing solo play), it should not be too low either (You get approximately 3x efficiency per player from a group atm if you just count the 1.3x gold find/xp/magic find boost combined with the fact that mob health increases only 50% whereas extra players, hopefully, double your damage. When you count synergistic effects, increased toughness/damage beyond just having more players, ect, it reaches into around 7x more efficient to run as a group compared to solo play. Of course, the addition of the leech zdps greatly increased MP efficiency to around 10x more effective for non-xp farming, and close to 13x more effective for xp farming. With the removal of leech zdps, and the buffs to solo player, the gap should lower quite a bit, but imo, the least the gap should be is 5x.
Plain and simple: no.
I appreciate your change of tone, but I still cannot agree with this opinion. In my opinion the baseline should be equality, let everyone play how they want to play and not force them into either solo or group. If I remember correctly, Blizzard once stated that this was the ultimate design goal, yet they would ensure that inevitable differences would always end up in favor of the multiplayer side. To me, that'd be as good as it gets.
Problem is, they missed that point by only a small number of galaxies. And that's no wonder given the examples they come up with when talking about that. Like "Imagine your 3yr old brother wants to play with you but needs both hands to handle the mouse. Should you experience a more difficult game then?"
What about 1% gold find and 0,1% magic find instead of stats for every paragon level over 1000? Wold be great, and I can't really thing about anything but this that could be awarded as gradual reward other than milestone based ones. Or global paragon meter with paches as milestones that they will be compelled to carry out, with community pool or forum vote based system.
But honestly they just should deal with bots and pay real money for paragon levels Kappa
Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
It's not skill bud. Its GRift Fishing.
You could complete a higher GRift with a lower Paragon than your buddy with the right Rift conditions.
SO, all that your statement tells me, is either your friend is inadequately fishing rifts for his PL or you got lucky with yours.
The fact still remains that the higher your Paragon, the easier it is to get through higher GR levels with less fishing.
it s fun how people try to deny the obvious.
a system that rewards you with a +15/20% stats increase is definitely telling you that it is what they want you to do to be competitive. anything else is semantics and philosophy.
just like the gw2 thing: you don t need ascended, it s bis gear but don t need it...and agony resistance? just skip fotm.
"skill" "experienced players".
funny.
--- Kev ---
Theres a number of things that can be done to address these issues rather then putting caps on/removing Paragon. The current state of the game is being changed with the next patch - With the nerfing of XP zdps, the introduction of Massacre xp multiplies (Thats not up in GRs!), and the huge nerfs to Static AND healing monks, speed-running lower GRs will be a thing of the past (Pre 2.3, while people DID speed run GRs for farm, the GRs would generally only be 5 below your normal GR level, not the current 15 below). With the nerf to healing monks, people won't be able to advance quite as far in GRs (Although the new Kunais will cancel that). The only thing left to do is A) make GR and the equivalent Torment level 100% equal in XP bonus, and Add T20, or at least T15 (Equivalent to GR 95/70, respectively).
Leaderboards existed pre-leaderboards as well - mostly on Diabloprogress.net. It was just brought into the game, and its actually less then the top 1% of players that can get on the leaderboards. Doesn't really matter, it probs took them all of 2 hours of coding to get it up giving that the API was already there.
It also does not force people to bot, as people choose to bot. If only 2 people botted, for instance, they would get high leaderboards, get banned, and get struck from the leaderboards. However, people do choose to bot, and to fix that would, of course, be perma-bans and scripts that break said bots (as well as lawsuits, ect).
And yes, the higher your Paragon, the easier it is to get through higher GR levels - Thats called progression, yea? You get more power, and can accomplish more things, yea?
I made an account just to post this, but it should be pretty obvious that paragon and grifts are designed to support infinite progression, but that these methods of infinite progression are poorly designed when players are effectively rewarded for NOT playing the game. The point remains that farming at difficulties you can faceroll, or just outright botting, takes no skill, has no risk, and yet it seems to be a major deciding factor for who makes the top of the leaderboards. This, to me, makes leaderboards meaningless, and discourages me from playing the game more than anything else. (Actually someone should bother checking whether or not the top players actually have the highest paragon...I know I haven't) I dunno, it always seems like Diablo 3 is doing things that are totally at odds with the core of the gameplay, like the RMAH.
I dunno how to fix, but I def think it's bad! I'm just making this post because I am frustrated at what sounds like people that believe they benefit from this system trying to act like it's not bad in this thread, i.e. Botting is Bad, unequivocally, for the game, for the players, for the everybody!
Sadly, I have read through most of the replies in this thread. And like this one, not a shred of reasoning beyond "NO FAIR!!!THEY PLAY MORE AND GET FURTHER! NO FAIR!"
Have you ever played any other RPG....ever? You ever have to do that thing where one area is a lil too hard for your guys so you have to go back or stick where you're at for a bit to fight guys and gain levels before you can move on to that next part. And then when you're stronger you can start to gain levels in that new area and so on? It's called grinding. It's admittedly not everyone's cup of tea but it's a big part of some if not most of the most successful and well known rpgs and mmos of all time.
As for leaderboards, if everyone could get on them they wouldn't be LEADERboards would they? The fact that only a small % of players could get on a leaderboard is literally the definition of what a LEADERboard is and part of pretty much ANYTHING competitive be it video games, sports, chess, card games, dance competitions, whatever...
And here's where you really lose me and sorta say something about yourself.
"Why implement a system that at its very core forces players to BOT to achieve a spot on said leaderboards?"
No one's forcing anyone to do anything. If a player chooses to cheat, that's on them. A person wouldn't get far in court saying, "She forced me to rape her cause she was cute and I can't find a date otherwise". Just because competition is hard doesn't justify cheating. Just because a person thinks the game is missing some aspect that they'd like doesn't justify them using illegal 3rd party software to achieve it.
And to those who are cheating, by all means ban everyone of them and strip their names from the boards. I agree something should be done about bots. But not anything that's going to punish legitimate players. And I think it's pretty weak how many people use botting as an excuse to justify literally ANYTHING they want changed about the game. Like seriously, I've yet to see a single debate on any aspect of Diablo where at least 1 person didn't say "Oh well (insert topic) is because of botting" or "We should change (insert topic) because of botting". Hell, I've seen them say that more stash is bad because of botting......
And when those "super serious sibling gamers" get that much further ahead, have better gear, a better clan and end up keeping you from being #1 leaderboards again with or without paragons, then what do we do for you?
Do we need to set time limits? If a player gets too far ahead of anyone, should they not be allowed to play so that everyone can catch up?
There's a fine line between "make it fair" and "GIVE IT TO ME!!! CAUSE I WANT IT!!!". People need to face that they might not have the time or skill to make it to leaderboards, that's life. And again, this is coming from someone who's never been on the leaderboards either.
I don't mean any disrespect but it seems that anytime a anti-paragoner can't convince someone with the "its not fair!" argument, they resort to "but bots!". Of course I'm all for getting rid of botting. And I understand that there are people who are cheating/botting to make it to leaderboards.
But you're essentially justifying their actions by just getting rid of what they're after as opposed to actually you know....getting rid of the botters. Why should honest players have to be punished because of what they do?
Giving botters less reason to bot literally gives real players less reason to play. I know it's easier said than done, but I'd like to imagine Blizzard would eventually be able to get rid of botters without having to alter the game to make it less desirable to play. That's just ridiculous.
Not really, because you get 40% more xp, 40% more chance to drop legendary items, and very likely faster more efficient clears, as you said.
There is plenty of incentive to group beyond just getting more XP. And even if XP was equal for grouping and solo, most players would still group for the sake of more items and faster runs. So why punish those that want to do it a different way? All because your view differs, it does not mean there is "stupid entitlement etc....". It simply means that people are expressing their views.
I would also advise that you read a post more thoroughly before you make erroneous assumptions, like saying I said groups only get 3-4 times more xp, because that is clearly not what the context was, the context was within a previously presented change, so do yourself a favor and read everything as to not look foolish. When you factor in that they are cutting monster health in half for solo players, then factor in a nearly 200% deduction to bonus xp available in groups (borns, cains, ruby in helm, etc..), but an increase in overall xp gained you get a scenario where groups will still farm paragon around 3-4 times faster than a solo player, but at least the gap shrinks.
I cherish everyone's opinion, but refrain from personal attacks Okakeri
Maybe you don't understand the scale of the issue that is botting (and thud for that matter). If there were visible flags on the leaderboards showing which accounts used either, you'd hardly find anyone without such a flag. It's not like a small minority exploits those things to "compete".
You're right that the gameplay component of getting experience and thus progressing your character isn't directly connected to that and that good things shouldn't be harmed just because of cheaters.
But think about actual paragon leveling: Which level have you reached this season? Is it fun to chase from 1445 to 1446? I don't think, people love to do that all day, especially those who don't bot trying desperately to catch up(see that letter thread).
Capping it for season only at a sane point would be such a minor intrusion, yet on the plus side would remove most of the advantage of bots. I can also imagine many top competitors rejoicing when they won't get up in the morning with a day of 16 hours of grinding waiting for them.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
Less reward for something that is not fun in the first place can actually have a positive effect by reducing the incentive to pursue that thing.
Better hope that Blizz doesn't measure their changes by the amount of time being spent ingame. That might very well go down without the "need" to grind plvl, especially from those loyal accounts that are online 24 hours. It's the quality of the time spent playing that matters.
Don't agree with naive, but yes, this has been the reason for introducing infinite plvl in the first place. However imo it turned out as a failure. The role model of D2s almost infinite exp progression that did have a cap, was better. They just need to find a cap that's comparable to D2s lvl 99.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
Yeah, there's literally only those 3 options to chose from. Nothing else.
Here's some options I think might be better than those you've mentioned.
1. Doing absolutely nothing
2. Ban all the botters and give the anti-paragon kids no more excuses for their failure at achieving a spot on boards.
If we cap Paragon on grifts, what's the point of having them work outside of grifts? Are you going to need to be paragon 4k to farm T7 bounties or play TX Rifts? If we brought up the torment levels to 20+ would these kids start whining that Torment levels are too high and unfair now?
If you can't finish 10-100, that's your own fault. You're not good enough. Neither am I, that's life.
If we cap paragon at 1k, then all the kids at 400 paragon will start whining that only players with 1k paragon are on top and now that's unfair.
Is grinding for paragon the single most fun aspect of Diablo 3, of course not. But combined with trying new builds, the possibility of getting new/better gear, and playing with a good group to push grifts/do rifts/ubers/bounties it makes it so that even the most hardcore players will always theoretically have a reason to keep playing.
"I can also imagine many top competitors rejoicing when they won't get up in the morning with a day of 16 hours of grinding waiting for them."
Yeah, that's just what people want in a game. They want to think to themselves "Cool, the developers made it so that's there's no reason for me to play this game anymore!" That's just what rational gamers are looking for in a game, more reasons to not play it.
Remove bonus after 800 for grift, and make grift more skill-based to give a reason for people to keep going at them.
end-game would be skilled based with the occasional upgrade to gems or gear
this would be an ideal solution. How to implement such a change is a different question altogether and certainly won't happen in our lifetime. Basically this would require elites to be more deadly but allow skillful play to evade the incoming damage.
i find it sad that blizzard never really went into that direction and kept with the mindless grind.
i quit the game every season when I feel I am too far behind to even have a tiny chance to make back to the leaderboard. Which is fine, as it makes me do other things in my life
1 accomplishes nothing and 2 is super-naive. Of course it'd be the best scenario to remove the predators, but in absence of that possibility, Blizz might as well limit their prey. Though botting is not the only issue. It's also nice to not have to log your meta char 24/7 until a week before the season ends to then push for your final rank.
Might overthink your choice of words if you want to be taken seriously. I agree that having higher plvl for non-gr content is pointless, I'd make the distinction between season and non-season. Go ahead and accumulate plvl 10k there through your various seasonal chars.
Won't please everyone, but I don't expect the people arguing here to actually act that childish
Trying new builds? Farming ubers? Enjoying the game? Interesting ideas. How about not possible because it costs x amount of experience? Someone like me wouldn't care, but those truly competitive guys shouldn't "waste" too much time on having fun. And that's the other core problem.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
I personally would love to see Pl tiered leaderboards implemented. For example, Pl 500-599, 600 - 699 so on so forth. Then add the option to no longer gain xp in game to effectively allow twinking
That way (2 jobs 2kids) Bob and (nolifier) Joe can be rank 1 of their respective brackets.
Leaderboards, as a form of pvp(ve), if you really want to "reward" who deserves ot, should be independent from exp and other stuff.
make people start from the same condition, with a wider choice of builds and better rng/class balance not tightly linked to grind...then see who is the best.
but d3 is not this kind of game.
moba s are competitive. fps. not arpgs.
competition and farming are opposites. farming goes with bots and no life, not with player skill.
and an endless exp farming is not endgame, is just a stick with a rotting carrot.
I don't care about competition so ok....the issue is that there is nothing else to do ingame because the "true game" is grinding pl, copy-paste builds. nothing else to do, at the moment.
nor challenge, nor fun.
--- Kev ---
Plain and simple: no.
I appreciate your change of tone, but I still cannot agree with this opinion. In my opinion the baseline should be equality, let everyone play how they want to play and not force them into either solo or group. If I remember correctly, Blizzard once stated that this was the ultimate design goal, yet they would ensure that inevitable differences would always end up in favor of the multiplayer side. To me, that'd be as good as it gets.
Problem is, they missed that point by only a small number of galaxies. And that's no wonder given the examples they come up with when talking about that. Like "Imagine your 3yr old brother wants to play with you but needs both hands to handle the mouse. Should you experience a more difficult game then?"
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
Why play a MMO if you get pissed about multiplayer? Go back to single player console games.