Well, the titles describes my idea sufficiently well.
PL is a meaningless run on a wheel for me, and made me quit since many months.
Exp-ing is boring...and is also unfair, as if i can't afford to play (or bot, as we know, and i hate it) all seasons, 24-7, I'll always be back in grifts, even if perfeclty built and geared.
I'd prefer to go back to a gear and build game..with common rare and impossibile items...
and maybe a bit like poe, with a cap level very difficult to get but a lot of builds that make you competitive soon at lvl 80: casual-friendly builds, expensive builds and tough ones.
In d3v many people were crying that after cap they don't get the feeling that they earn anything for their time invested and that was main reason people were quitting.
PLs should be capped in some cappicty. I think a soft cap would be ideal. Meaning, cap PLs in greater rifts (800 perhaps), but allow people to gain and use higher PLs in everything else. This would allow for a more leveled competitive playing field in GR leader boards but still allow for a character to get stronger and more efficient at gear farming. Doing something along these lines would take the emphasis from mindless experience grinding, and botting for xp and put it back onto gear and skill.
Imagine that. An ARPG focused on gear and skill as the main proponent to leader board rankings. And yes, I realize that the GR system/leader boards relies a lot on RNG. Which is another can of worms.
By the sounds of it though, it might be worth looking into WoW Legion as a D3 alternative in the future.
The new cube recipe will diminish stat gains alot, since main stat damage is additive and we will be getting 5k mainstat from new recipe, meaning the paragon 2000+ guys will have like around 7% more dmg than a 1000k para guy, which is alot better than the current 30%+
If they went back to grinding for gear I think the difference between the people who have bots and don't would be even bigger so I don't understand a request like this. If the game was based purely on attributes it would be one thing, but the game is based on the bonuses from legendaries so if you take those away there will be an even bigger rift between those that can play a lot and those that can't. Nothing will take away the grind feeling of a game that you have been playing for years, it is bound to happen.
This season there won't be people quitting because they reached the cap, but for sure there are a lot that already quitted because they don't feel competitive againts people with +50% dps due to paragon. If 1 paragon=1stat it would be fair, 1000 paragon = +10% dps instead of +50%.
in general, quit is not a problem with season, everybody quit and start again with the season.
1000 extra paragon lvls do not give you 50% dmg lol, mainstat gains are additive.
For example: from 10k to 11k mainstat you get like 10% dmg, but from 13k to 14k you get around 7%, as i said before in this post.
The new recipe will close the gap by alot while giving us something to keep farming, kudos to that.
I'm not saying i don't agree with +1 mainstat after 800 in fact i suggested it already in this thread and several times in the past.
Well, endless paragon is not much an issue by itself - the core problem is/was the fact you could run a very efficient group while bringing opn the table huge XP bonus amounts.
This summed to GR xp scaling (which obviously favors party due to higher levels easier to complete/farm) made group xp grinding much more efficient.
They don't need to cap paragons - they need to make them a lot slower.
2.4 changes help a lot: someone already mentioned the cube recipe which nets a much faster increase in stats reducing the difference given by paragons; plus the XP bonuses will scale down to 1/10 power at 70 meaning no more 400b/hour runs.
Bots will always have the advantage, aswell parties. But the difference now should be smaller as solo/standard players will have an easier time while party XP gains will be reduced a lot (given the same amount of playtime). Maybe still not balanced, but on a much better ground.
That's a horrible solution. GRifts are by far the only content where such high paragons mean something
And that's where the problem lies. It forces people to BOT to remain even the slightest bit comptetive.
People who cant play 18 hours a day fall behind at an expedential rate and either quit playing or do something they arnt comfortable with and BOT.
And the vast majority of people can't play 8+ hours a day for 3 months on a daily basis. I understand and somewhat agree that people who sink more time into a game should reap some sort of benefit. But giving them such a large advantage over the majority doesn't make sense to me.
Like I said, capping plevels and putting the emphasis on gear would put this game in such a better place, IMO.
As it stands now, and you see this happening in each season. People come back, grind it out for a few weeks to keep up with the hardcore grinders, and then lose all motivation when they log on and see people 300+ plevels ahead of them and quit because they could no longer compete in any fashion.
I really don't think that's the reason to quit for a significant amount of players. Most people don't give a shit about the competition. They just play for themselves. Equip their char until they have everything, push grifts until they have to fish to beat it and then get bored because fishing for grifts is boring as hell. This is about 50 hours, maybe more with the augmentation of ancients. That's not good enough only for players who nolife the game...
The majority of players are quitting because of the Paragon meta. It forces you to BOT or quit your day job to remotely comptetive. Even streamers, those who sit in front of their computers for 10+ hours a day are quitting because they can't compete against the bots grinding xp.
It's a terrible end game mechanic and a false one at that.
If Blizzard and the majority of its player base is okay playing 50 hours each season then leave things the way they are. But by the looks of it, at least one of the two isn't.
I do think that the changes in 2.4 will help keep a chunk of players around for a bit longer, they still don't solve the long term issues facing the game.
In d3v many people were crying that after cap they don't get the feeling that they earn anything for their time invested and that was main reason people were quitting.
But this was before Greaters!
The idea that people would stop playing seasons if they put a paragon 800 cap level into effect for seasons only is just idiotic at best tbh. People play seasons because of various reasons, but few play seasons to grind paragon levels. Most play for a fresh restart, for pushing ladders, and for completing the season only achievements, or simply to mess around and have fun.
Putting a 800 paragon cap to seasons would also bring parody to the ladder push, as you would not see the 7-8 GR difference that you see from the Paragon 1150 people and the paragon 800 players.
Also, with a paragon 800 cap to seasons, I would personally make XP harder to attain. Make it so that the most dedicated of people can get paragon 800 by lets say season week 3-4, not day 3-4. Lets remove the massive XP buff for groups, and make it so that grouping only gives about 40% more xp than solo. This adds even more parody as those who do not have the time to wait for a proper group. They can play solo and still compete.
In the end, ladders are about parody (which they currently lack), and I am sure there are many other ways to grant parody other than or as well as what I have stated above.
This season there won't be people quitting because they reached the cap, but for sure there are a lot that already quitted because they don't feel competitive againts people with +50% dps due to paragon. If 1 paragon=1stat it would be fair, 1000 paragon = +10% dps instead of +50%.
in general, quit is not a problem with season, everybody quit and start again with the season.
1000 extra paragon lvls do not give you 50% dmg lol, mainstat gains are additive.
For example: from 10k to 11k mainstat you get like 10% dmg, but from 13k to 14k you get around 7%, as i said before in this post.
The new recipe will close the gap by alot while giving us something to keep farming, kudos to that.
I'm not saying i don't agree with +1 mainstat after 800 in fact i suggested it already in this thread and several times in the past.
TLDR: Capping Paragon is bad.
I think it is around 50%: stat is usually around 10k with 800 paragon, with 1000 paragon you add 5000 to main stat, and 15000 stat compared to 10000 means 50% damage.
Not really, the dmg you get from mainstat diminish's the more you have, it's the way additive dmg works.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
_ Always the same story "Take Paragon or limits the Paragon"...
_ I agree with what was said by some here. I'm not in favor of putting limit on the Paragon, because I like the a idea of "leveling" (by me can be "infinite"). The detail is, if you take or put limit, will have to change the drop, making it rare items as "SMK" (Imagine achieve Ancestral to drop before 2.1...). Who will have items "Ultra Rare", the same playing six hours or more a day, so they will continue to be the "Top Rank".
_ Another point, already quoted in another "post", many players do not know to farm exp, play time and gain some level (or close to 800), many of these are those who complain of the game, play with Builds unfocused, the same with items...
_ I agree with the idea of reducing the experience gained when playing in groups. Who plays Solo should have more options to evolve in this way increases the chance of a achieving "new horizons". Without changing the Paragon. It's often difficult to find group that has "focus" on exp farm.
_ To complete if it's to play a game that has Level Limit, go to Diablo 2.
_ If you want to compete in a game: or you're rich and do not need to work or earn money playing or play a game without level and items.
I will never play again until they change paragon system.
I like to compete a bit, but how can I stand agains a p1950 if I am 900 ? I'm not a retard that like to run 70+ endeless just for XP.
This game is doomed. They can do whataver they want, the game system is broken.
Thats excacty why this is my first and last season. Play eras boys, where the casuals like me belong. I hit rankings above 250 in ns and i cant get above 500 in season. Simple as that.
When the season ends, the era ends as well at the same time so you are wrong here. It makes no sense for me a 15 hour per week player(at best) to compete with people who play 15hours per day. I can't rank much higher than that, but i am ok with it.
I'm pretty sure that I posted this before, but theres a couple reasons why Blizz will not introduce a Paragon cap, whether its a soft cap or a hard cap.
1: Introducing either cap will greatly reduce the replay value of the game. If they introduce a soft cap to Paragon, then the amount of time it takes for your character to progress to the next GR level will greatly increase. Upon reaching a certain point, you only have 2 options for progression - Better rolled items, which, when you enter the really high Plvls, maybe occur once every 5-10 hours of playing, and increasing your paragon level, which is generally quite a bit faster then trying your RNG for extremely rare upgrades. Putting a soft cap on Paragon levels GREATLY slows your progression speed - Putting a hard cap on Paragon Levels STOPS your progression outright.
2: Competitive Diablo is complete e-peen comparision. There are NO rewards for getting even IN the leaderboards - Not a single achievement, portrait, banner, sigil, pet, wing, or anything is rewarded for getting in a leaderboard. For players that are utilizing bots to farm P-lvls, it is FAR better for blizzard to crack down on bots then to put a hard or soft cap on P-lvls. One will lead to the overall betterment of the game, the other may lead to the decline of late-endgame.
3: Paragon levels already have a pre-implemented soft cap. Paragon lvls 1000-1100 will NOT provide as much as a power boost as 900-1000, 1100-1200 will not provide as much as a power boost compared to 1000-1100, ect.
4: The total number of people buying and actually playing at levels above P-800 is so insignificant that it is NOT worth any developmental time to implement caps of any sort. The majority of players are in the 100-300 range, which will slowly and steadily increase over time. Blizzard has proven in all of their games that they do NOT balance around end-game content, but rather around the most accessible content. Rather then spending even an hour working around nerfing something that doesn't need nerfing because of the cries of the bottom of the top 1%, it would be much better to use that hour to brainstorm ideas for new set bonuses, or improvments to existing set bonuses.
Well, the titles describes my idea sufficiently well.
PL is a meaningless run on a wheel for me, and made me quit since many months.
Exp-ing is boring...and is also unfair, as if i can't afford to play (or bot, as we know, and i hate it) all seasons, 24-7, I'll always be back in grifts, even if perfeclty built and geared.
I'd prefer to go back to a gear and build game..with common rare and impossibile items...
and maybe a bit like poe, with a cap level very difficult to get but a lot of builds that make you competitive soon at lvl 80: casual-friendly builds, expensive builds and tough ones.
Not a pl treadmill as a hamster.
--- Kev ---
In d3v many people were crying that after cap they don't get the feeling that they earn anything for their time invested and that was main reason people were quitting.
PLs should be capped in some cappicty. I think a soft cap would be ideal. Meaning, cap PLs in greater rifts (800 perhaps), but allow people to gain and use higher PLs in everything else. This would allow for a more leveled competitive playing field in GR leader boards but still allow for a character to get stronger and more efficient at gear farming. Doing something along these lines would take the emphasis from mindless experience grinding, and botting for xp and put it back onto gear and skill.
Imagine that. An ARPG focused on gear and skill as the main proponent to leader board rankings. And yes, I realize that the GR system/leader boards relies a lot on RNG. Which is another can of worms.
By the sounds of it though, it might be worth looking into WoW Legion as a D3 alternative in the future.
The new cube recipe will diminish stat gains alot, since main stat damage is additive and we will be getting 5k mainstat from new recipe, meaning the paragon 2000+ guys will have like around 7% more dmg than a 1000k para guy, which is alot better than the current 30%+
Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
If they went back to grinding for gear I think the difference between the people who have bots and don't would be even bigger so I don't understand a request like this. If the game was based purely on attributes it would be one thing, but the game is based on the bonuses from legendaries so if you take those away there will be an even bigger rift between those that can play a lot and those that can't. Nothing will take away the grind feeling of a game that you have been playing for years, it is bound to happen.
1000 extra paragon lvls do not give you 50% dmg lol, mainstat gains are additive.
For example: from 10k to 11k mainstat you get like 10% dmg, but from 13k to 14k you get around 7%, as i said before in this post.
The new recipe will close the gap by alot while giving us something to keep farming, kudos to that.
I'm not saying i don't agree with +1 mainstat after 800 in fact i suggested it already in this thread and several times in the past.
TLDR: Capping Paragon is bad.
Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
Well, endless paragon is not much an issue by itself - the core problem is/was the fact you could run a very efficient group while bringing opn the table huge XP bonus amounts.
This summed to GR xp scaling (which obviously favors party due to higher levels easier to complete/farm) made group xp grinding much more efficient.
They don't need to cap paragons - they need to make them a lot slower.
2.4 changes help a lot: someone already mentioned the cube recipe which nets a much faster increase in stats reducing the difference given by paragons; plus the XP bonuses will scale down to 1/10 power at 70 meaning no more 400b/hour runs.
Bots will always have the advantage, aswell parties. But the difference now should be smaller as solo/standard players will have an easier time while party XP gains will be reduced a lot (given the same amount of playtime). Maybe still not balanced, but on a much better ground.
And that's where the problem lies. It forces people to BOT to remain even the slightest bit comptetive.
People who cant play 18 hours a day fall behind at an expedential rate and either quit playing or do something they arnt comfortable with and BOT.
And the vast majority of people can't play 8+ hours a day for 3 months on a daily basis. I understand and somewhat agree that people who sink more time into a game should reap some sort of benefit. But giving them such a large advantage over the majority doesn't make sense to me.
Like I said, capping plevels and putting the emphasis on gear would put this game in such a better place, IMO.
As it stands now, and you see this happening in each season. People come back, grind it out for a few weeks to keep up with the hardcore grinders, and then lose all motivation when they log on and see people 300+ plevels ahead of them and quit because they could no longer compete in any fashion.
The majority of players are quitting because of the Paragon meta. It forces you to BOT or quit your day job to remotely comptetive. Even streamers, those who sit in front of their computers for 10+ hours a day are quitting because they can't compete against the bots grinding xp.
It's a terrible end game mechanic and a false one at that.
If Blizzard and the majority of its player base is okay playing 50 hours each season then leave things the way they are. But by the looks of it, at least one of the two isn't.
I do think that the changes in 2.4 will help keep a chunk of players around for a bit longer, they still don't solve the long term issues facing the game.
I don't have enough tissue for all the tears on this thread....
But this was before Greaters!
The idea that people would stop playing seasons if they put a paragon 800 cap level into effect for seasons only is just idiotic at best tbh. People play seasons because of various reasons, but few play seasons to grind paragon levels. Most play for a fresh restart, for pushing ladders, and for completing the season only achievements, or simply to mess around and have fun.
Putting a 800 paragon cap to seasons would also bring parody to the ladder push, as you would not see the 7-8 GR difference that you see from the Paragon 1150 people and the paragon 800 players.
Also, with a paragon 800 cap to seasons, I would personally make XP harder to attain. Make it so that the most dedicated of people can get paragon 800 by lets say season week 3-4, not day 3-4. Lets remove the massive XP buff for groups, and make it so that grouping only gives about 40% more xp than solo. This adds even more parody as those who do not have the time to wait for a proper group. They can play solo and still compete.
In the end, ladders are about parody (which they currently lack), and I am sure there are many other ways to grant parody other than or as well as what I have stated above.
Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
Cains/borns and ruby in helms are getting nerfed in 2.4. Monster kill xp is getting buffed to 50%.
_ Always the same story "Take Paragon or limits the Paragon"...
_ I agree with what was said by some here. I'm not in favor of putting limit on the Paragon, because I like the a idea of "leveling" (by me can be "infinite"). The detail is, if you take or put limit, will have to change the drop, making it rare items as "SMK" (Imagine achieve Ancestral to drop before 2.1...). Who will have items "Ultra Rare", the same playing six hours or more a day, so they will continue to be the "Top Rank".
_ Another point, already quoted in another "post", many players do not know to farm exp, play time and gain some level (or close to 800), many of these are those who complain of the game, play with Builds unfocused, the same with items...
_ I agree with the idea of reducing the experience gained when playing in groups. Who plays Solo should have more options to evolve in this way increases the chance of a achieving "new horizons". Without changing the Paragon. It's often difficult to find group that has "focus" on exp farm.
_ To complete if it's to play a game that has Level Limit, go to Diablo 2.
_ If you want to compete in a game: or you're rich and do not need to work or earn money playing or play a game without level and items.
Paragons shouldn't apply in greaters, end of story, lol it it is too hard to conclude for Blizz then we are DOOMED.
I will never play again until they change paragon system.
I like to compete a bit, but how can I stand agains a p1950 if I am 900 ? I'm not a retard that like to run 70+ endeless just for XP.
This game is doomed. They can do whataver they want, the game system is broken.
Thats excacty why this is my first and last season. Play eras boys, where the casuals like me belong. I hit rankings above 250 in ns and i cant get above 500 in season. Simple as that.
When the season ends, the era ends as well at the same time so you are wrong here. It makes no sense for me a 15 hour per week player(at best) to compete with people who play 15hours per day. I can't rank much higher than that, but i am ok with it.
I'm pretty sure that I posted this before, but theres a couple reasons why Blizz will not introduce a Paragon cap, whether its a soft cap or a hard cap.
1: Introducing either cap will greatly reduce the replay value of the game. If they introduce a soft cap to Paragon, then the amount of time it takes for your character to progress to the next GR level will greatly increase. Upon reaching a certain point, you only have 2 options for progression - Better rolled items, which, when you enter the really high Plvls, maybe occur once every 5-10 hours of playing, and increasing your paragon level, which is generally quite a bit faster then trying your RNG for extremely rare upgrades. Putting a soft cap on Paragon levels GREATLY slows your progression speed - Putting a hard cap on Paragon Levels STOPS your progression outright.
2: Competitive Diablo is complete e-peen comparision. There are NO rewards for getting even IN the leaderboards - Not a single achievement, portrait, banner, sigil, pet, wing, or anything is rewarded for getting in a leaderboard. For players that are utilizing bots to farm P-lvls, it is FAR better for blizzard to crack down on bots then to put a hard or soft cap on P-lvls. One will lead to the overall betterment of the game, the other may lead to the decline of late-endgame.
3: Paragon levels already have a pre-implemented soft cap. Paragon lvls 1000-1100 will NOT provide as much as a power boost as 900-1000, 1100-1200 will not provide as much as a power boost compared to 1000-1100, ect.
4: The total number of people buying and actually playing at levels above P-800 is so insignificant that it is NOT worth any developmental time to implement caps of any sort. The majority of players are in the 100-300 range, which will slowly and steadily increase over time. Blizzard has proven in all of their games that they do NOT balance around end-game content, but rather around the most accessible content. Rather then spending even an hour working around nerfing something that doesn't need nerfing because of the cries of the bottom of the top 1%, it would be much better to use that hour to brainstorm ideas for new set bonuses, or improvments to existing set bonuses.