The people that are ok with the current system are people that dont play much and/or not competitive. The problem is, you feel compelled you have to do mindless speed runs all day, every day, to keep up and be competitive. I'd rather spend my time pushing higher GRs, solo and group, but you can't do that without spending 95% of your in game time doing speed runs.
Okay, hold up... Now, I will agree that doing the same remedial tedious tasks over and over again gets boring. Season 2... 35's speed runs were the crazy thing to do, while pushing into the high 40's low 50's... Those were top tiered players. Now, how exactly would you propose to fix the problem you are having? More experience/kill on an exponential slope in higher GRs? That will just set the plateau of speed farming higher. Removing paragon (800+ at least)? Capping paragon caps your character, which is the opposite of what paragon was intended to do. Unlock the other trees and spread more paragons in more places? Sure, but that's just another dump...
The main thing I keep seeing is that the power creep is too strong to ignore... which keeps people playing... which is what everybody wants? If you skip just one day of speed farming, does that mean that you can never hit the top 10 on leaderboards? There is a lot of skill involved in clearing greater rifts 50+... a lot of white mobs can 1 shot you if you're not careful. While your 1000 extra mainstay may help you kill them faster, that doesn't mean if they touch you, you don't die.
I'm sorry for the wall of texts, but I can't get over how many people are talking about betting/paragons... It seems like the community is just shifting and incorporating everything into 1 hot button issue. Paragon is fine, be competitive, do 1/2 speed runs, 1/2 pushing? Last I checked you still get experience for pushing.
Paragon is a huge power creep at this point. The amount of damage you get from main stat is just over the top. You can be a fully Geared GG character at paragon 800, and someone who is mid gear, paragon 1000, is going to be out putting more DPS then you. Just for an example. Blizz needs to cap it and then raise it after the end of every season. From a fairness and competitive level, Paragon in my opinion is hurting the game. I am Paragon 1,012. I Still look like a joke compared to someone who is even Paragon 1100. It is 500 give or take more main stat.
Second a lot of people are also botting there way to get these paragon levels, They are consistently running RoS Bot overnight for 8-10 hours for XP/gear adding up to many Paragon levels and potential top tier items, when they are not even truly playing the game. Blizzard needs to do something about it or it will never stop.
I also believe Gem levels are another thing that are separating players way to much. I understand that some people have put the time in to run 1% runs. But it's not good for the game. The amount of DPS they get, is a huge separation factor. At lease 2-3 Grift levels on the leader board. It also gives no one else a chance to compete for top spots. The combination of Paragon and Gem levels in my opinion needs to be smoothed out.
Diablo 3 is mainly about gear, meaning if you have top tier gear and you push for the top, you will get there. Not to sit and grind endless paragon and 1% runs to get a huge competitive and DPS advantage.
Ugh, I think I'll just leave this thread alone and let you guys pat each others backs... Gem levels? With the removal of perm CC, those GR70 runs are going to implode... that's not even 1% runs. I do agree that the curve on gem levels is harsh, in the same grift hitting for 3 levels you drop from 90% to 60% if successful? Ouch, but that's not point.
Play longer, harder, don't eat, don't sleep, leave your wife, kill your kids, get a bedpan. You'll be the best of the best of the best, sir.
I am Paragon 1,012. I Still look like a joke compared to someone who is even Paragon 1100. It is 500 give or take more main stat.
So the difference between paragon 100 and 200 is inconsequent? or even 600 and 700? You're talking about 100 levels difference. if you were p1001 and looked like a joke to a p1010, then I could understand. However, 100? Good day sir.
I said for an example, and it was mild at best. The whole point was, it is a 500 more main stat. Your answer is referring to players that are before Paragon 800, meaning they are still maxing all there other Paragon slots out, before they are dumping them all into main stat. I really don't think you understand how paragon levels give you a dramatic advantage. Compare me to someone who is 1200 then 1400 now we are talking 1-2K more main stat.
For gem levels, no one will be able to come close to the people that already have 80+ level gems once the patch hits. They will from that point on, have a huge DPS gain because of that. When Blizzard is not giving everyone a chance to work towards matching that. Unless you run 100 1% runs and hope for maybe 1-2 gem upgrades. That is something that needs to be re worked. You shouldn't have to run endless 1% runs to try and keep up on a competitive level.
No harm in that, but you shouldn't feel like shit whenever you are doing anything besides farming experience because it is just so much better than anything else.
Oh, how accurate is this phrase. Exactly what we have right now in D3.
Nothing to add here.
People need to understand that this has been and will remain the biggest skew for leaderboards and and any game with a "ladder" type system. Unless youre a dedicated person (streamer that can make money off the game or more or less total loser that does nothing but play the game) youre not going to be competitive. Capping paragon wont hep, stopping the botters wont help (not this issue anyway). Nothing short of you dedicating 18 hours a day to the game will help...
do you wanna be tops, or do you wanna have a life and realize this is just a game
russell3773: Blizz needs to cap it and then raise it after the end of every season. From a fairness and competitive level, Paragon in my opinion is hurting the game...
Well, this will still hurt the people playing non-season (if they cap only season paragon, if thats what you mean).
russell3773: For gem levels, no one will be able to come close to the people that already have 80+ level gems once the patch hits...
The problem with the uncapped gems is not only this one. I wrote long time ago in a thread concerning the solo players that gems needs to be capped. That's it! I don't have to play 2s, 3s or 4s in order to boost my gem levels if I don't want to. Gems have to be capped for the sake of fair competition. And for the sake of balance - this would mean some gems would have different max level than other, but all will be in a range - level 40 ~ 60 or whatever for the current patch is optimal.
Arydor: Paragon is the answer to "What do I do when I have the best gear?"
The answer should be the competition. If you managed to get the best gear, then my friend, start using it for where its needed, not for grinding meaningless low level GR in order to get more paragon. Yes, we don't have PvP in D3, but still there is some form of competition and its clearly not the paragon leveling.
If blizzard won't address the Paragon then they have to break down the leaderboards in categories:
P1~400, P401~800, P801~1200 etc...
Otherwise its quite pointless.
@wqwfst: If the rewards after P800+ are really well designed, the majority of players will strive for them. Stash space was just an example. But with the info presented here from Bagstone (OP post) - I clearly say NO to stats boost from Paragon after P800. This is my viewpoint and its the right one in terms of players coming to Diablo. If you love this game and want to see it at top of that popular streaming site, then start thinking what's best for it, not for the 24/7 players only. With all my respect to these guys and their dedication to D3, this is bad for the game as a whole. You simply have no idea how many people don't play right now, because of the trial system and in 2.3 they won't play because of the paragon system. As bay_Dimcho quoted the game has become P2W with time being the currency.
Let me try my hand at explaining the argument against the current paragon system:
The issue is not that playing more hours = more paragon = more power. I am not suggesting that those players who invest more time should not be rewarded for doing so. The issue is the rate of reward given relative to time spent is not a constant in this game. Due to the continuous power creep in each patch the amount of paragon you can earn in an hour becomes higher with every season/era. This ultimately means that the gap in power between players who invest more time and those who spend less time becomes bigger and bigger and will continue to do so with every new patch.
I would not ask for paragon caps or for paragon to not increase the power of your hero, I simply want the power differential between playing 4 hours a day and 5 hours a day (as an example) to remain constant with each new season/era.
Here is an example of what I mean about the widening power gap:
If you go to diabloprogress and look at the leaderboard for paragon earned in season 1 you will see that the number 1 paragon earner reached 1076 paragon by the end of the season. The number 60 earner achieved 877 paragon.
Do the math and you see that the difference in paragon between the highest earner and the 60th highest earner is 199 paragon or 995 mainstat.
Now do the same thing with the season 3 leaderboard and you see that the number 1 earner has already reached 1821 paragon while the number 60 earner has 1226 paragon. That's a difference of 595 paragon or 2975 mainstat. Even if you think Vajet is an anomaly comparing the number 2 earner to the number 60 results in a 416 paragon or 2080 mainstat difference.
Season 3 hasn't even finished and won't be as long as season 1 but already the difference in paragon between players is drastically larger than it was in season 1. This is because the paragon system has no provision to maintain a constant rate of reward to time invested. This trend will only continue with each patch creating larger and larger power gaps for the same differences in playtime unless the system is revised in some way.
Unfortunately I don't know if there is any way to stabilize the system without releasing the next expansion. Blizzard has stated that they never want you to log in to the game and feel less powerful than you were before. Making a retroactive change to paragon rewards would certainly do that. Conversely making a change to the system now with out applying it retroactively would give an unfair advantage to those who have already earned high paragons as other players would no longer be able to use the same means to catch up. The most likely scenario is for the next expansion to include an increase in max level from 70-80 as was done for RoS thereby allowing Blizzard to more or less reset everyone's paragon and implement a new paragon system with out negatively impacting anyone's power levels.
The point I believe of threads like this one is not to complain about haves and have not's but rather to bring attention to a system that has not kept up with other changes to the game in the hope that it will not be overlooked when the opportunity arises for Blizzard to re-balance the system and bring it back in line with the current direction of the game.
There will always be people who bot. A well designed bot is hard to catch. No matter if its D3 or any other game. The solution is to not give the botters any edge over the normal pool of players. Then they will be a problem only for blizzard, not for the Diablo players. When Josh replaced Jay, he made the most important step in the direction of limiting the bots: He killed trading, RMAH and made the decision with the BoA items. Kudos to him for that! He at least listened. Now it seems this problem is rising again.
wqwfst: I think we need a solution which still rewards player who spent a lot of time to keep them playing but also a solution which makes botting almost useless.
Such solution doesn't exist even theoretically. The moment you have unlimited reward which the average Joe wants, you will have botting. These two are like aging and dying. If the reward is only in terms of design then at least the competition won't be hurt by the bots. Let the Joe who bot have his golden hat. But if its only a design/cosmetic/QoL reward, then 90% of the 24/7 players will disappear. So, there is always a trade-off.
KaiserQwerty: Blizzard has stated that they never want you to log in to the game and feel less powerful than you were before. Making a retroactive change to paragon rewards would certainly do that. Conversely making a change to the system now with out applying it retroactively would give an unfair advantage to those who have already earned high paragons as other players would no longer be able to use the same means to catch up.
Well, they can still cap paragon on season. The players will then be forced with a choice - grinding endless paragon on non-season or enjoying the seasonal rewards immediately.
So huh? The last few posted are about reducing the amount of exp earned in higher rifts? What kind of backwards logic is that? If you really wanted to go into exp modifiers, why not just say you get 10x more experience for clearing a new grift level, and 5x more for clearing your top 3. The point is the 1% is the 1% and until you quit your job, disown your family and retire your life to D3, you will NeVeR be good enough to pierce through the top 10. Never. Ever. And if blizzard makes that a possibility, I for see the end of D3.
The comparative power benefit of each paragon level does go down as paragon level goes up. Seriously. Even if the experience curve is perfectly flat you get LESS power going form level 1000-1001 than you do from 1001-1002
It's just that there are absolutely no other ways to get that .002% DPS once you reach a certain point.
Paragon gains are linear. Time investment is exponential. The entire system is designed SPECIFICALLY so that you have what is essentially a diminishing returns gain. The problem with GR leaderboards is that you either finished a rift or you didn't. Either you beta the stat check or you don't.
And how about we go and look at the actual time investiture difference between whatever arbitrary players we're comparing is between seasons? It does nothing to say players 1 and 60 have larger paragon gaps without also looking at their playtime gaps. Then we have to sit and look at how they reached that paragon (Rubies? Support builds? What are they ACTUALLY doing different). You need extensive and detailed information to make any REAL comparison between season leaderboards.
Personally I don't really give a crap. But at least use real statistics when you start talking about how broken the system is. We all know it's broken fortunately for us one of the big breaking mechanics is getting gutted in S4 in the form of XP gear.
I understand the complaints about this, but as a solo player that primarily does seasons I have a hard time caring if a handful of characters become ultra powerful. I can barely think of anything more pointless than botting or grinding to and beyond 2000.
wqwfst: I think the experience curve has to continue exponential as in the paragon below 2000.
The damage is already done. We have people P2k+. They won't re-scale the paragon before the next expansion as KaiserQwerty pointed out.
Blayreau: A competitive player could choose to compete in the P800 leaderboard, even as a P10K character. When you enter a grift, you would be downscaled to P800, even if you were higher.
Yep, that's the idea on theory. On practice imagine opening that leaderboard and browsing through tens of categories just to reach that final one in which the #1 (and only one, the grand champion) could be GR1. Doesn't look good. That's the big problem with the suggestion. Otherwise theoretically its sound. Just as in boxing - you have categories.
The more I think (taking in consideration what KaiserQwerty said) - the best option is this:
Leave paragon uncapped. Remove the stats bonus after P800 on season only. After season end the players will receive their main stat bonus on non-season. When the expansion hits, scale paragon differently and cap it somewhere.
Al_Calzone: I think they should rescale the whole system to fit the progressive curve we're seeing sub-750. This also means that all paragon levels need to be recalculated - just like when a season ends. Of course this leads to high-level players losing some their level advantage, but they are still significantly ahead - just not as much. And the amount of grinding required to catch up with them doesn't change at all.
Such a rescale would introduce a soft-cap for Paragon. It is still possible to level up, no matter how high you are - but after a certain point it's simply not feasibly anymore to just grind Paragons.
I doubt blizzard would do this before the next expansion (minimum 3 more seasons). Otherwise the soft-cap would really solve much of the problems except the xp gear and leeching.