@wiwh: Don't get me wrong, I like the idea death to be punishable, as in D2. It just won't happen.
I think you're right, but that's a shame. It would be a very nice seasonal change, and it would really mean something to compete for high parangon, while not being detrimental at all to casuals. I think it solves all the issues of seasonal competition, and very few - if at all - would be against it.
On your previous lists of issues with the current parangon system:
- Those who don't want paragon to be the central focus of the ranking system
solved, GRIFT progression will be affected in a limited manner (up to 1000 stats of difference).
- Solo-only players who want fair competition
solved. No need to be the highest parangon to compete in GR leaderboard.
- People who view paragon leveling as killing the other aspects of the game
solved. parangon leveling will be for the dedicated only (past p800), and parangon leaderborad will be seen as a secondanry leaderboard.
- Those who don't have 18 hours a day free, but want to compete
solved. They won't compete in parangon leaderboard, but can compete in gr.
- Players who don't enjoy certain paragon leveling mechanics (aka leeching)
solved.
- Those who hate botting (endless paragon welcomes it)
solved. as for the parangon leaderboard that would accompany this new mechanic, it would surely be too risky to bot.
Also, this death penalty can occur in a different way (albeit in a less striking manner), for instance:
For every Grift you complete, gain one 5% buff to XP, stackable a number of time up to the level of Grift completed. Upon death, lose half the stacks. The number of active stacks is capped by the corresponding GRift level.
Change the 5% and the experience curve to provide a clear competitive advantage to the players who do not die. Change the experience curve so that it is almost impossible to reach lvl 1000.
Eg. you have 20 stacks. You complete a grift 20. You don't get a stack. You complete a grift 25, you gain 1 stack. You enter a grift 15 with your 25 stacks, only 15 are active. You die, you lose 12 stacks.
This kind of death penalty is a mechanic that is present in the game in the form of the wells of XP (or whatever they are called). Here, the higher the GR, the more death is punished.
Fantastic write up on a subject that is driving me insane. I guess I have to realize and accept that Diablo is no longer an Item hunt game but a game about gaining paragon and running GRifts until I puke.
@Romonaga: Never accept things that make you insane. Fight with what you can. In this case, with opinions and posts.
I am optimistic about the whole situation tbh. A lot of closely related things (item hunt vs paragon vs leaderboards competition, xp gear and leeching vs normal play, solo vs multi, botting/huds vs fair play) need fixing and this time we don't have the trials scenario. Blizzard devs can't delay this whole mess 3 more seasons in a row. Right now they are those under pressure. If they make the wrong decisions more players will quit. It's simple as that.
@Romonaga: Never accept things that make you insane. Fight with what you can. In this case, with opinions and posts.
I am optimistic about the whole situation tbh. A lot of closely related things (item hunt vs paragon vs leaderboards competition, xp gear and leeching vs normal play, solo vs multi, botting/huds vs fair play) need fixing and this time we don't have the trials scenario. Blizzard devs can't delay this whole mess 3 more seasons in a row. Right now they are those under pressure. If they make the wrong decisions more players will quit. It's simple as that.
Yes you are correct one must keep fighting, yet as some other person in a different post told me, times have changed old man. Todays Diablo is not your Diablo or your fathers Diablo.
The game is fun, however it is no longer an item hunt game, my weekend showed me just how messed up it is. When I can take a level 1 char level to 70 and gear it for t6-t8 in under 4 hours. Outside the leveling to 70, this char did not step one foot into a RIFT, GRIFT, Bounty.
I am optimistic as well, I seen the game from day one, it was bad, an item hunt game with no items is simply not fun. However, it is clear they want to shift this from an item hunt game to I don't know what. I just want a fun game that will have some longevity, no I don't want to play D2, did that for years, its old like me, clunky like me.
Diablo has always been a hack-n-slash grinder, and I hope it always will be. I am a casual gamer who enjoys Seasons play though I know I have no hopes of making it to the top of the leaderboards. I play because I want to see how far I can get, always pushing myself for better finishes.
That being said, I have no issue with those that put in the hours being rewarded with faster and faster plvl's. Those dedicated people are the ones that come up with the great builds that help me progress further than I have done in the past so I don't have to do the hard work myself. This is a game and as such is designed for enjoyment, and I enjoy playing the game to get gear, get plvl's and see how far I can get in the seasons.
I for one feel that things are fine the way they are as far as progression is concerned, though I would love to have 5 more stash tabs to keep all my stuff.
"The situation is so strange: Low-level paragon players are saying "the system is fine, high-level paragon players should get more power". High- level paragon players are saying "the system is flawed, we should not gain *that* much power". Sigh."
Diablo was a loot-based game once. All the top players are now farming GR70+ in "no boss" runs, which means they only kill trash and leave at the RG to maximize paragon. They play Diablo for 24/7 without seeing a single item drop. How is this still Diablo? How can anyone justify this as being good game design? Why is everyone ignoring the issue by putting words into people's mouth or speaking for other people (i.e., "it's okay if those players get this power") when they say themselves it's not okay?
I'm sad that the community as a whole does not recognize the issue, but even more so that Blizzard thinks it's fine.
I'm sad that the community as a whole does not recognize the issue, but even more so that Blizzard thinks it's fine.
I think you are too pessimistic about the situation. Blizzard do recognize the issue and I expect them to make changes. Most of the players are fine with paragon and item drops as they are, because the usual player's logic is: "The more, the better". Just look how many players enjoy the boosted PTR item chances. Give them gear and paragon levels as much as possible. They will be happy for a week and then blame in the forums that the game is bad. And here really comes the role of the Diablo designers. They are those people that should take the important decisions and adjust the things so that the game's atmosphere stays adequate and offers more possibilities in terms of builds and modes, rather than in terms of botting paragon. And I expect them to change things, sooner or soonTM.
Imo the paragon system is flawed and the fact at a certain point the only real power gain comes from putting points into your mainstat.. If I remember right they said something along the lines when diablo3 was in development? about options and not an illusion of options and putting points in stats was never really an option as you would only gimp yourself by doing it "wrong" where is diablo3 headed as we speak?
For me diablo should be about killing endless amounts of monsters/champions/elites/rares and bosses and search for that rare piece of whatever to increase power. But clearly the community didn't want the best of the best to be super rare and therefore the game has become about gearing up in a matter of hours and then just kill for xp, forget the loot, bosses, materials. Just kill for xp.. This is pathetic in every way I can Imagine and this is what slowly kills my interest in the game as the power gain is only an illusion as numbers only goes higher and higher across the board.
I really really hope they will come up with some kind of solution to this if another expansion gets released.. and make diablo what it is all about.. Kill monsters and collect items rather than xp points.
Hm... then I missed the instance where Blizzard acknowledged this. The only instance of "paragon" being mentioned by any Blizzard official this summer was when someone asked in the Reddit Q&A if they were to do changes to paragon and the answer was "nope". Doesn't read to me like they understand the issue.
They said in that ziggyD interview they will look into the issue, if I remember correctly. Maybe they still don't have any official solution to announce.
iam totally on your side bagstone, however others have other oppinions.
Your argument is undeniably correct - and i cannot see me not agree with this argument - and its implication, that it's hard for me to understand how others can ignore this problem or argument against it.
This seems to be the case for you also since you wouldn't repeat yourself
The problem is many people cant see more than their own little world. If its not affecting them (by not pushing leader boards) the argument is invalid. That is their point of view and how we perceive it. However what they really mean is: is does not affect them and thus they dont care.
You cannot help someone who does not want to be helped. He cannot see his advantage in changing the situation. So why try to convince a lost cause?
You made your point, its valid.
But sadly its really not affecting the larger part of the playerbase. So , yes, the problem is not realized in the major part of the community so blizzard does not think its a problem.
Just take hearthstone as an example: i !think! that every registred user in this board has at least played hearthstone, and 50% who are regular posters have also been rank 20 or higher in hearthstone.
However with rank 20 you already are better than 50% of all players.
So with this in mind, how representative is the discussion in this board in relation to the playerbase? non existent.
And even here its only a few people who are saying its affecting them.
That is because one reason: There are only a few people competing for the high ranks really doing this extreme paragon farming.
I would say that its not more than 500-1000 people globally who are really trying it.
How i get my number? Each leaderboard has 1000 places, 80% of them are happy with rank 200 >1000
why 80%? well because iam easy 200 and i dont care to do more.
Its not like i have a chance with a job and a girlfriend etc etc.
Would I like a chance to be participating in the top 200 ? yes of course. But this is not because the game is limiting my possibilities.
Time is the limiting factor now.
And paragon gives people with time an advantage.
Thats all thats to say. D
Ultimatley this thread is about changing the game in a way to give people with a real life the opportunity to compete in d3.
Bagstone, its us who are whining that there is a problem with paragon, not them being ignorant of a problem.
We care, but we cannot totaly forget our own advantage. I already said, its a problem but would you still see this as a Problem if you had 24 /h a day for playing d3? you would jump the advantage train at level dem shit outta dose paragons:D
I would..
So if you say: why are all people ignoring this problem, ask yourself. would it be still your problem if your personal circumstances changed? (e.g having no real life anymore)
So its not a flaw of the game, but a result in the inequality of reallife - everybody has different amount of times.
That being sad:
its all not counting in bots. BOTTING HAS TO DISSAPPEAR.
But this problem still exists without botting., but without botting i wouldnt see it as a problem. Because well if gabynator had to be 24h before his pc since theres no botting, he would forget to eat, that would be nice.
While I do have to say that the Bellcurve effect mentioned in the OP is a problem, I do not think that a number of other points made are a problem.
There are only two true ways to continue to progress in Diablo currently - Paragon Level, and Legendary Gem level. Gear currently has a fixed max value that you may eventually obtain, which, alone, will leave you with an unbeatable cap. While diminishing returns on P-lvl past a certain point might be a good idea, capping it is NOT. The end result of a cap of power is a cap of progression. If a player decides to farm all the way up to Plvl 10000 so he can speed run GR 90 toward 20000 so he can do GR 110, I say let him. Its the same reason Blizzard implemented Seasons - When players bang their heads against a wall, they start to quit, and for many many players, anything above 400 becomes a wall.
There are only two true ways to continue to progress in Diablo currently - Paragon Level, and Legendary Gem level.
People who play seasons don't progress infinitely. They progress only while the season lasts. That's why a good game design would allow people who don't play 24/7 to have equal chances at seasonal competition and NOT-equal chances at non-seasonal where the progression is infinite.
It's a question of design: How to give all groups of players what they want? And there are few solutions for this already mentioned in this thread. Obviously blizzard devs will take one of them, because nobody wants to lose players.
Again the problem is not in players getting advantage if they play 24/7..This is how it should be. Its the execution of this process that is problematic IMO.
The process of gaining paragon levels is one thing, the advantage of the 24/7 players with and without leaderboard competition is another thing. If blizzard want to create fair environment for the players who want to compete, some form of caps should be applied to all stats, which can be influenced by or directly botted for. Otherwise the game becomes a bot-fest with leaderboards heavily oriented toward grinding instead of skill.
The things atm are that the player pool is already quite separated on this topic. Some want endless paragon and doesn't care about competition, botting and solo mode. The other want changes. What's left for blizzard is to just give these players what they want. And since the player pool is already divided by season and non-season, they could use this and introduce another distinction between the two modes. And I can guarantee you that with the time all players will switch to the mode, where you can actually have fun with your friends instead of grinding that X paragon levels per day like a mad man to use this for 1 week before end of season/era.
I think paragon should be tied to the character. At least until the season is over, then I'm fine with this being applied to your account.
You see, I play the crusader and I'm fine being a class that can't get high on the paragon charts, however, I feel bad when someone like Quin plays the crusader for a week and get rank#1 with his lvl 80 gems and 1400 paragon points earned while playing another class.I have similar gear and much more time spent exclusevely on my crusader but suddently I am also competing with monks for the "solo crusader" leaderboard. I mean, c'mon!
where you can actually have fun with your friends instead of grinding that X paragon levels per day like a mad man to use this for 1 week before end of season/era.
You really shouldn't try to dictate what others consider fun.
Thank you so much for this information! I've always thought that exp were exponential and that after p800 you got 5 main stat every 4th p-lvl... Like before but since you've now caped offence, difference and utility those three won't give any points.
It seems SO weird this isn't the case. I think this will be the first time ever for me to think "WTH was Blizzard thinking?". This is sooooooooo broken... From p2000 you'll only gain paragon faster and faster. This is beyond stupid.
What if para exp scaled exponential, they remove exp gain from gear, make the "torment levels" be selectable like greater rifts (Torment gr-lvl 60 Bounty farm!) and add more things to put paragon points in? Without any behind the scene knowledge I would say this is not so demanding. Tech is already more or less there, it's just some work to do.
No one should be worried at all about anything past 1000 for fucks sake. If you do...that would indicate you play THAT much of one game, or bot, fuck it, you bot. And you're actually worried about going beyond the already insane and sad amount of gameplay you've put into a game. I'm just under 700, after this season probably hit 700ish as i am 5...30something already. But to actually dumb time into wondering after paragon 1000 or 1200 or 2200!? are you fucking kidding me?! Get a job...get a hobby...get a person...something.
No one should be worried at all about anything past 1000 for fucks sake. If you do...that would indicate you play THAT much of one game, or bot, fuck it, you bot. And you're actually worried about going beyond the already insane and sad amount of gameplay you've put into a game. I'm just under 700, after this season probably hit 700ish as i am 5...30something already. But to actually dumb time into wondering after paragon 1000 or 1200 or 2200!? are you fucking kidding me?! Get a job...get a hobby...get a person...something.
Well, it have more to do with the design then anything else, and the design currently suck!
I think you're right, but that's a shame. It would be a very nice seasonal change, and it would really mean something to compete for high parangon, while not being detrimental at all to casuals. I think it solves all the issues of seasonal competition, and very few - if at all - would be against it.
On your previous lists of issues with the current parangon system:
- Those who don't want paragon to be the central focus of the ranking system
solved, GRIFT progression will be affected in a limited manner (up to 1000 stats of difference).
- Solo-only players who want fair competition
solved. No need to be the highest parangon to compete in GR leaderboard.
- People who view paragon leveling as killing the other aspects of the game
solved. parangon leveling will be for the dedicated only (past p800), and parangon leaderborad will be seen as a secondanry leaderboard.
- Those who don't have 18 hours a day free, but want to compete
solved. They won't compete in parangon leaderboard, but can compete in gr.
- Players who don't enjoy certain paragon leveling mechanics (aka leeching)
solved.
- Those who hate botting (endless paragon welcomes it)
solved. as for the parangon leaderboard that would accompany this new mechanic, it would surely be too risky to bot.
Also, this death penalty can occur in a different way (albeit in a less striking manner), for instance:
For every Grift you complete, gain one 5% buff to XP, stackable a number of time up to the level of Grift completed. Upon death, lose half the stacks. The number of active stacks is capped by the corresponding GRift level.
Change the 5% and the experience curve to provide a clear competitive advantage to the players who do not die. Change the experience curve so that it is almost impossible to reach lvl 1000.
Eg. you have 20 stacks. You complete a grift 20. You don't get a stack. You complete a grift 25, you gain 1 stack. You enter a grift 15 with your 25 stacks, only 15 are active. You die, you lose 12 stacks.
This kind of death penalty is a mechanic that is present in the game in the form of the wells of XP (or whatever they are called). Here, the higher the GR, the more death is punished.
Fantastic write up on a subject that is driving me insane. I guess I have to realize and accept that Diablo is no longer an Item hunt game but a game about gaining paragon and running GRifts until I puke.
@Romonaga: Never accept things that make you insane. Fight with what you can. In this case, with opinions and posts.
I am optimistic about the whole situation tbh. A lot of closely related things (item hunt vs paragon vs leaderboards competition, xp gear and leeching vs normal play, solo vs multi, botting/huds vs fair play) need fixing and this time we don't have the trials scenario. Blizzard devs can't delay this whole mess 3 more seasons in a row. Right now they are those under pressure. If they make the wrong decisions more players will quit. It's simple as that.
The game is fun, however it is no longer an item hunt game, my weekend showed me just how messed up it is. When I can take a level 1 char level to 70 and gear it for t6-t8 in under 4 hours. Outside the leveling to 70, this char did not step one foot into a RIFT, GRIFT, Bounty.
I am optimistic as well, I seen the game from day one, it was bad, an item hunt game with no items is simply not fun. However, it is clear they want to shift this from an item hunt game to I don't know what. I just want a fun game that will have some longevity, no I don't want to play D2, did that for years, its old like me, clunky like me.
Diablo has always been a hack-n-slash grinder, and I hope it always will be. I am a casual gamer who enjoys Seasons play though I know I have no hopes of making it to the top of the leaderboards. I play because I want to see how far I can get, always pushing myself for better finishes.
That being said, I have no issue with those that put in the hours being rewarded with faster and faster plvl's. Those dedicated people are the ones that come up with the great builds that help me progress further than I have done in the past so I don't have to do the hard work myself. This is a game and as such is designed for enjoyment, and I enjoy playing the game to get gear, get plvl's and see how far I can get in the seasons.
I for one feel that things are fine the way they are as far as progression is concerned, though I would love to have 5 more stash tabs to keep all my stuff.
I'll just quote myself:
"The situation is so strange: Low-level paragon players are saying "the system is fine, high-level paragon players should get more power". High- level paragon players are saying "the system is flawed, we should not gain *that* much power". Sigh."
Diablo was a loot-based game once. All the top players are now farming GR70+ in "no boss" runs, which means they only kill trash and leave at the RG to maximize paragon. They play Diablo for 24/7 without seeing a single item drop. How is this still Diablo? How can anyone justify this as being good game design? Why is everyone ignoring the issue by putting words into people's mouth or speaking for other people (i.e., "it's okay if those players get this power") when they say themselves it's not okay?
I'm sad that the community as a whole does not recognize the issue, but even more so that Blizzard thinks it's fine.
I think you are too pessimistic about the situation. Blizzard do recognize the issue and I expect them to make changes. Most of the players are fine with paragon and item drops as they are, because the usual player's logic is: "The more, the better". Just look how many players enjoy the boosted PTR item chances. Give them gear and paragon levels as much as possible. They will be happy for a week and then blame in the forums that the game is bad. And here really comes the role of the Diablo designers. They are those people that should take the important decisions and adjust the things so that the game's atmosphere stays adequate and offers more possibilities in terms of builds and modes, rather than in terms of botting paragon. And I expect them to change things, sooner or soonTM.
Imo the paragon system is flawed and the fact at a certain point the only real power gain comes from putting points into your mainstat.. If I remember right they said something along the lines when diablo3 was in development? about options and not an illusion of options and putting points in stats was never really an option as you would only gimp yourself by doing it "wrong" where is diablo3 headed as we speak?
For me diablo should be about killing endless amounts of monsters/champions/elites/rares and bosses and search for that rare piece of whatever to increase power. But clearly the community didn't want the best of the best to be super rare and therefore the game has become about gearing up in a matter of hours and then just kill for xp, forget the loot, bosses, materials. Just kill for xp.. This is pathetic in every way I can Imagine and this is what slowly kills my interest in the game as the power gain is only an illusion as numbers only goes higher and higher across the board.
I really really hope they will come up with some kind of solution to this if another expansion gets released.. and make diablo what it is all about.. Kill monsters and collect items rather than xp points.
Hm... then I missed the instance where Blizzard acknowledged this. The only instance of "paragon" being mentioned by any Blizzard official this summer was when someone asked in the Reddit Q&A if they were to do changes to paragon and the answer was "nope". Doesn't read to me like they understand the issue.
They said in that ziggyD interview they will look into the issue, if I remember correctly. Maybe they still don't have any official solution to announce.
iam totally on your side bagstone, however others have other oppinions.
Your argument is undeniably correct - and i cannot see me not agree with this argument - and its implication, that it's hard for me to understand how others can ignore this problem or argument against it.
This seems to be the case for you also since you wouldn't repeat yourself
The problem is many people cant see more than their own little world. If its not affecting them (by not pushing leader boards) the argument is invalid. That is their point of view and how we perceive it. However what they really mean is: is does not affect them and thus they dont care.
You cannot help someone who does not want to be helped. He cannot see his advantage in changing the situation. So why try to convince a lost cause?
You made your point, its valid.
But sadly its really not affecting the larger part of the playerbase. So , yes, the problem is not realized in the major part of the community so blizzard does not think its a problem.
Just take hearthstone as an example: i !think! that every registred user in this board has at least played hearthstone, and 50% who are regular posters have also been rank 20 or higher in hearthstone.
However with rank 20 you already are better than 50% of all players.
So with this in mind, how representative is the discussion in this board in relation to the playerbase? non existent.
And even here its only a few people who are saying its affecting them.
That is because one reason: There are only a few people competing for the high ranks really doing this extreme paragon farming.
I would say that its not more than 500-1000 people globally who are really trying it.
How i get my number? Each leaderboard has 1000 places, 80% of them are happy with rank 200 >1000
why 80%? well because iam easy 200 and i dont care to do more.
Its not like i have a chance with a job and a girlfriend etc etc.
Would I like a chance to be participating in the top 200 ? yes of course. But this is not because the game is limiting my possibilities.
Time is the limiting factor now.
And paragon gives people with time an advantage.
Thats all thats to say. D
Ultimatley this thread is about changing the game in a way to give people with a real life the opportunity to compete in d3.
Bagstone, its us who are whining that there is a problem with paragon, not them being ignorant of a problem.
We care, but we cannot totaly forget our own advantage. I already said, its a problem but would you still see this as a Problem if you had 24 /h a day for playing d3? you would jump the advantage train at level dem shit outta dose paragons:D
I would..
So if you say: why are all people ignoring this problem, ask yourself. would it be still your problem if your personal circumstances changed? (e.g having no real life anymore)
So its not a flaw of the game, but a result in the inequality of reallife - everybody has different amount of times.
That being sad:
its all not counting in bots. BOTTING HAS TO DISSAPPEAR.
But this problem still exists without botting., but without botting i wouldnt see it as a problem. Because well if gabynator had to be 24h before his pc since theres no botting, he would forget to eat, that would be nice.
While I do have to say that the Bellcurve effect mentioned in the OP is a problem, I do not think that a number of other points made are a problem.
There are only two true ways to continue to progress in Diablo currently - Paragon Level, and Legendary Gem level. Gear currently has a fixed max value that you may eventually obtain, which, alone, will leave you with an unbeatable cap. While diminishing returns on P-lvl past a certain point might be a good idea, capping it is NOT. The end result of a cap of power is a cap of progression. If a player decides to farm all the way up to Plvl 10000 so he can speed run GR 90 toward 20000 so he can do GR 110, I say let him. Its the same reason Blizzard implemented Seasons - When players bang their heads against a wall, they start to quit, and for many many players, anything above 400 becomes a wall.
It's a question of design: How to give all groups of players what they want? And there are few solutions for this already mentioned in this thread. Obviously blizzard devs will take one of them, because nobody wants to lose players.
The things atm are that the player pool is already quite separated on this topic. Some want endless paragon and doesn't care about competition, botting and solo mode. The other want changes. What's left for blizzard is to just give these players what they want. And since the player pool is already divided by season and non-season, they could use this and introduce another distinction between the two modes. And I can guarantee you that with the time all players will switch to the mode, where you can actually have fun with your friends instead of grinding that X paragon levels per day like a mad man to use this for 1 week before end of season/era.
I think paragon should be tied to the character. At least until the season is over, then I'm fine with this being applied to your account.
You see, I play the crusader and I'm fine being a class that can't get high on the paragon charts, however, I feel bad when someone like Quin plays the crusader for a week and get rank#1 with his lvl 80 gems and 1400 paragon points earned while playing another class.I have similar gear and much more time spent exclusevely on my crusader but suddently I am also competing with monks for the "solo crusader" leaderboard. I mean, c'mon!
Thank you so much for this information! I've always thought that exp were exponential and that after p800 you got 5 main stat every 4th p-lvl... Like before but since you've now caped offence, difference and utility those three won't give any points.
It seems SO weird this isn't the case. I think this will be the first time ever for me to think "WTH was Blizzard thinking?". This is sooooooooo broken... From p2000 you'll only gain paragon faster and faster. This is beyond stupid.
What if para exp scaled exponential, they remove exp gain from gear, make the "torment levels" be selectable like greater rifts (Torment gr-lvl 60 Bounty farm!) and add more things to put paragon points in? Without any behind the scene knowledge I would say this is not so demanding. Tech is already more or less there, it's just some work to do.
No one should be worried at all about anything past 1000 for fucks sake. If you do...that would indicate you play THAT much of one game, or bot, fuck it, you bot. And you're actually worried about going beyond the already insane and sad amount of gameplay you've put into a game. I'm just under 700, after this season probably hit 700ish as i am 5...30something already. But to actually dumb time into wondering after paragon 1000 or 1200 or 2200!? are you fucking kidding me?! Get a job...get a hobby...get a person...something.
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It doesn't matter if it 'sucks' or not. No one should spend that much time to even half give a shit about paragon 1200+ for gods sake...
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