One way to sort it out is to make every rift level the same. my greater rift 45 is the exact same as every one else's 45. And 46 is the exact same for everyone. But a little more difficult then 45.
It is impossible to get this going and balanced. But it would sort things out
GP, that's good thinking. I've been saying the same things over on the Diablo 3 forums ever since the implementation of Greater Rifts. Nearly the same thing.
While the concept of competition certainly has a number of interpretations in general, it has a very narrow definition in this game:
A wide range of competitors struggle for a single top spot (based on group composition) by running on highly diverse courses that are completely randomized for each competitor for each run.
Why do you think racecar drivers do well? They know the course. They walk the course before timed trials, and they practice the course before races.
A single field of racecar drivers do not all race on different courses for the same checkered flag.
There will never be any real "competition" in Diablo III until Blizzard makes the map layouts of Greater Rifts, and the monster types, population, and density, standardized and constant through every instance of Greater Rift.
Greater Rift maps need this standardization, so that after a few hundred Greater Rifts, contestants will know the map before they enter, know the layout, know how to gear for it, and be able to progress through it with the only hindrance being survival and monster kill speed.
Tier 39 will have a different layout than Tier 23, but every Tier 39 Greater Rift will have the same layout; maps, monsters, affixes, pylon locations, and Rift Guardian.
Until then, there will never be any real competition in this game, and the "leaderboards" will measure nothing except who the luckiest player is, who had the most time to sink into gameplay; the one who found the right gear, got a favorable map with no dead ends, wherein the right monsters with easy affixes spawned with good density, and where a pushover Rift Guardian spawned.
With standardization, Clans and Communities will spring up, so players can discuss tactics and strategies for approaching this particular monster with that gear set, and what to do when you round this one corner.
We would have a reason to talk about the game, not just gripe about it.
Competition would be real.
PS: the activity of fishing for Pylons has ended, because pylons are dynamically introduced into the Greater Rift maps as you progress through them, and now every type of pylon spawns in every greater rift at roughly equal intervals, where the only real randomization is what type it's going to be when it spawns. But almost always there will be a Conduit or Power, sometimes Channeling at the Rift Guardian, and after he spawns, no further Pylons will. You could spend the rest of your time in the Rift searching it, and you won't find another one.
PS: the activity of fishing for Pylons has ended, because pylons are dynamically introduced into the Greater Rift maps as you progress through them, and now every type of pylon spawns in every greater rift at roughly equal intervals, where the only real randomization is what type it's going to be when it spawns. But almost always there will be a Conduit or Power, sometimes Channeling at the Rift Guardian, and after he spawns, no further Pylons will. You could spend the rest of your time in the Rift searching it, and you won't find another one.
Well I think the ladder could still benefit from showing it next to the rift completing time so players that go the extra mile for a challenge can show it off.
So the whole goal of bringing Greater Rifts to Diablo 3 was to offer a higher difficulty for those that are steamrolling through T6 and want a bigger challenge AND offer some sort competitive gameplay including leaderboards.
What we got was just more RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG and frustration.
If you watch popular streamers do greater rifts, all you see if them trying to get a) good mobs a good Rift c) good pylons d) a good guardian. How is this competitive if everything about is just random luck instead of rewarding perfect execution?
I propose a new mode for Diablo 3: Challenge Modes
Challenge modes are a fixed set of maps, that are 100% identical, nothing about them is randomly generated and every group that runs them gets the exact same mobs, pylons and guardians.
Let’s make up a Challenge Mode map so I can better explain how and why this is better than Greater Rifts for Leaderboards.
Hellfire Citadel (yeah I’m creative, I know)
You and your friends are storming a castle
All Mobs are themed the same way, in this case it’s Act-4 styled mobs (yuk, I know!)
Even the affixes of the groups are not random generated and can be made to fit the current theme of the floor, think something like a arcane laser labyrinth floor.
Each floor can (but does not have to) have some sort of mini event that gives you an advantage when you complete it in time. Like reaching the warden’s cell before he closes the gates let’s you skip the longer way you’d have to take if you fail to reach the goal. (Thought-curve: Having 2 Demon Hunters here could give you an advantage to beat the DPS requirement, but does it give you a better time overall if you have more “squishy” classes in a later floor?)
You get a pylon each time you reach a certain floor of the castle, it is always the same order and always the same place. Let’s say at the start (cellar, whatever) you get a speed pylon, then at the third floor a Power Pylon and so on.
At the pinnacle of the castle you have to face the final boss, let’s say it’s Diablo here.
After the defeating the boss your team gets rated and a place on the scoreboard, there are ratings for speed and execution (least deaths, number of used pylons?).
Loot is given at the end from a chest you unlock by beating the last boss (or drops from the boss itself; can be different in each map etc).
Loot amount (shards, legendaries etc) is generated based on how you do (speed, execution again).
What this gives us is a way to rank players in a way that does revolve around player skill and group play only.
There will always be a class that is better than another at dungeon-X, floor-Y but you can’t build your whole group around just that. So clever gameplay will be rewarded more than playing the flavour of the month/season class. Challenges inside of the dungeons can be build around that fact, like not being CC able in some cases so not every group with an zDPS CC Witch Doctor has an easy life throughout the whole thing but maybe on floor-X where it sure helps them out but gives them a disadvantage on the other floors because CC does not work there.
This could of course be expanded on with a lot of different ways on how to build those dungeons. For example some could be separated into wings and completing a wing already gives you loot and saves your progress there so you can continue here. You of course want to avoid a situation where people can just farm Hellfire Citadel - Part 2 (the kitchen!) all the time because it is the easiest and gives fast loot.
This could also be seen as finally having some sort of proper PvP in the form of PvPvE in Diablo 3. Would also make quite a good stream/Blizzcon show, watching teams compete in Challenge Modes. Learning how to beat certain stages/groups the best and so on.
Seasons are also the best possible way to introduce new Challenge Modes and iterate on the old ones, fixing bugs and exploits along the way to make them better and fun to re-play.
You could also introduce cosmetical rewards from beating certain dungeons, like a banner when you beat Hellfire Citadel, or a pet when you reach a certain progression stage on a different one.
As you can see, this has endless possibilities and I’d really love to hear what other people think about it.
best regards
Stanzilla
You're pretty much just describing story mode, without the story and with some bells and whistles. Content like this tends to get stale faster than good randomly generated content.
What I'd rather see is a daily (hourly?) challenge mode, in which all players get the same multi-tier rift. Perhaps each tier of the rift should be shorter than a normal greater rift; say 5-10 minutes instead of 15 minutes. Clear one tier and you can move on to the next, more difficult tier, and score players based on how many tiers they clear.
Stanzilla I appreciate your creative thinking. However, I am certain that something which is not random (even RNG as it is) will become boring very very quickly. No matter how romantic one could think, it is clear from the game so far that there is loads of people that could take any part of the game analyze it, test it, solve it and make guides vids etc. With even stupidly balanced RNG. Can you imagine what would happen with static maps? I think your idea is really fresh and great but could never work.
On the other hand, if they really fixed the lag issues and worked on fine tuning the current GR strategy it would be fine. Every season the GR tier go higher because new party combinations and sets etc are appearing which I find interesting. The game is not great now but static maps would kill it I am sure.
All this does is to add even more rigorous mix-maxing. If you know the map type and the affixes, it is likely to severely benefit just a handful of classes, builds, resistance rolls on gear and immunity neck choices. For instance, any type of maze with walls will be perfect for monks/wizards due to their dash/teleport and lower density maps would be better for mobility specs. A slow zombie-only rift would require you to go full glass cannon and get new gear without any non-damaging stats.
It's not inherently bad that people need to come up with new specs to push timers, but the top specs these days are more rounded ones that can take on the majority of encounters. If you know all in advance, it takes away an unknown and creates much less diverse specs. It would certainly show personal skill in the first few days, but as soon as a stream is out everyone will know the solution to the "puzzle" and can go and repeat it themselves.
I would be more accepting to a game mode where the RNG is lessened instead of being completely static, but I am not sure what these would prove if they were just a weekly occurrence. A lot of the incompatible classes would outright skip the bad challenge rifts if they couldn't even fish for better circumstances. I know for sure that I wouldn't even try with DH if the rift always contained ghosts, archers and winged assassins.
I'm just spit-balling here, but what about the option to "save" up to 10 Grifts, so that they can be replayed as many times as you want, with whoever you want. That way we at least have a reliable way to test different builds and/or party compositions in a very practical and meaningful way, or simply gauge character progression.
Stanzilla I appreciate your creative thinking. However, I am certain that something which is not random (even RNG as it is) will become boring very very quickly.
Yeah tell that to those millions of Counter Strike players who play the same map for 10 years no.
Stanzilla I appreciate your creative thinking. However, I am certain that something which is not random (even RNG as it is) will become boring very very quickly.
Yeah tell that to those millions of Counter Strike players who play the same map for 10 years no.
Is Counter Strike a.... farming game?? Jeez I did not know
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Truth is like a lion. Don't try to defend it. Let it loose. It will defend itself" Augustine of Hippo
it is a nice idea to make the game competitive, but...is this what we really need? I can't imagine myself playing a 0-RNG map more than 10 times after I reach my limit
But you'll try a few times to get to your limit. Then a few times till you really cant beat it any more. And then a few times more after every bigger patch, every new item and every build change just to see how much you improved etc etc. It's like a measuring stick. It's a better version of the leaderboards we have today, not the be all and end all of endgame.
It's really such an easy fix if they meant for D3 to be a competitive game in the first place. All the need is to rank based on average time of X number of Grifts in a row. Fail one, and it's doesn't count.
This way RNGing high rifts is out of the picture since you have to be able to consistently clear whatever you are attempting. So players will have to compete based on time, while playing on a difficulty they can actually clear vs a variety of mobs. At the same time it would naturally be less annoying to try for rank since at least you're playing rift difficulties you can complete.
This is the reason why PvP tournaments in most games use a "Best Of" format, so RNG doesn't become the main factor. D3 using a best of 1 rift format makes it impossible to be competitive with skill as the main factor.
All the need is to rank based on average time of X number of Grifts in a row. Fail one, and it's doesn't count.
This is a really interesting idea, it allows for competition that somewhat balances out RNG without actually removing RNG. You would still fish for a good combination of rifts which should satisfy Blizzard's desire to maintain replayability but you wouldn't be completely out of the running if you don't spawn that one map layout/mob type/boss etc. I would be in favor of this style of competition.
Challenge Rifts: Timed GR run where everyone has the same hero, same build, same dungeon layout, same monsters, same pylons Will be updated frequently. Content comes from Rifts run by regular players. You can use them to have a look at builds you don't know yet. Competing will require you to learn both, the build and the layout. There will be Leaderboards for them. You'll be rewarded if you beat the original player's time on the Rift, most likely with Bounty Bags for your own character. When entering in multiplayer, all the players will be using the exact same character.
It is simply a start to get the community more involved in the actual game. With everything that they have talked about, I am really looking forward to the future of this game, which is clearly far from Maint Mode.
It's really such an easy fix if they meant for D3 to be a competitive game in the first place. All the need is to rank based on average time of X number of Grifts in a row. Fail one, and it's doesn't count.
This way RNGing high rifts is out of the picture since you have to be able to consistently clear whatever you are attempting. So players will have to compete based on time, while playing on a difficulty they can actually clear vs a variety of mobs. At the same time it would naturally be less annoying to try for rank since at least you're playing rift difficulties you can complete.
This is the reason why PvP tournaments in most games use a "Best Of" format, so RNG doesn't become the main factor. D3 using a best of 1 rift format makes it impossible to be competitive with skill as the main factor.
For such a complex system that rifts are and their algorithms, monster generations, level layouts, etc... this is actually a practical approach. It's the same reason why most serious, competitive games are best of 3's. Skill spikes, luck, etc is all thrown out the window when you just average the stats.
I like this very much +100 from here
Yea they really should give us more things to do, not just bounties, rifts and gr -s.
GP, that's good thinking. I've been saying the same things over on the Diablo 3 forums ever since the implementation of Greater Rifts. Nearly the same thing.
While the concept of competition certainly has a number of interpretations in general, it has a very narrow definition in this game:
A wide range of competitors struggle for a single top spot (based on group composition) by running on highly diverse courses that are completely randomized for each competitor for each run.
Why do you think racecar drivers do well? They know the course. They walk the course before timed trials, and they practice the course before races.
A single field of racecar drivers do not all race on different courses for the same checkered flag.
There will never be any real "competition" in Diablo III until Blizzard makes the map layouts of Greater Rifts, and the monster types, population, and density, standardized and constant through every instance of Greater Rift.
Greater Rift maps need this standardization, so that after a few hundred Greater Rifts, contestants will know the map before they enter, know the layout, know how to gear for it, and be able to progress through it with the only hindrance being survival and monster kill speed.
Tier 39 will have a different layout than Tier 23, but every Tier 39 Greater Rift will have the same layout; maps, monsters, affixes, pylon locations, and Rift Guardian.
Until then, there will never be any real competition in this game, and the "leaderboards" will measure nothing except who the luckiest player is, who had the most time to sink into gameplay; the one who found the right gear, got a favorable map with no dead ends, wherein the right monsters with easy affixes spawned with good density, and where a pushover Rift Guardian spawned.
With standardization, Clans and Communities will spring up, so players can discuss tactics and strategies for approaching this particular monster with that gear set, and what to do when you round this one corner.
We would have a reason to talk about the game, not just gripe about it.
Competition would be real.
PS: the activity of fishing for Pylons has ended, because pylons are dynamically introduced into the Greater Rift maps as you progress through them, and now every type of pylon spawns in every greater rift at roughly equal intervals, where the only real randomization is what type it's going to be when it spawns. But almost always there will be a Conduit or Power, sometimes Channeling at the Rift Guardian, and after he spawns, no further Pylons will. You could spend the rest of your time in the Rift searching it, and you won't find another one.
Well I think the ladder could still benefit from showing it next to the rift completing time so players that go the extra mile for a challenge can show it off.
Still looking for more feedback!
What I'd rather see is a daily (hourly?) challenge mode, in which all players get the same multi-tier rift. Perhaps each tier of the rift should be shorter than a normal greater rift; say 5-10 minutes instead of 15 minutes. Clear one tier and you can move on to the next, more difficult tier, and score players based on how many tiers they clear.
Stanzilla I appreciate your creative thinking. However, I am certain that something which is not random (even RNG as it is) will become boring very very quickly. No matter how romantic one could think, it is clear from the game so far that there is loads of people that could take any part of the game analyze it, test it, solve it and make guides vids etc. With even stupidly balanced RNG. Can you imagine what would happen with static maps? I think your idea is really fresh and great but could never work.
On the other hand, if they really fixed the lag issues and worked on fine tuning the current GR strategy it would be fine. Every season the GR tier go higher because new party combinations and sets etc are appearing which I find interesting. The game is not great now but static maps would kill it I am sure.
"Truth is like a lion. Don't try to defend it. Let it loose. It will defend itself" Augustine of Hippo
All this does is to add even more rigorous mix-maxing. If you know the map type and the affixes, it is likely to severely benefit just a handful of classes, builds, resistance rolls on gear and immunity neck choices. For instance, any type of maze with walls will be perfect for monks/wizards due to their dash/teleport and lower density maps would be better for mobility specs. A slow zombie-only rift would require you to go full glass cannon and get new gear without any non-damaging stats.
It's not inherently bad that people need to come up with new specs to push timers, but the top specs these days are more rounded ones that can take on the majority of encounters. If you know all in advance, it takes away an unknown and creates much less diverse specs. It would certainly show personal skill in the first few days, but as soon as a stream is out everyone will know the solution to the "puzzle" and can go and repeat it themselves.
I would be more accepting to a game mode where the RNG is lessened instead of being completely static, but I am not sure what these would prove if they were just a weekly occurrence. A lot of the incompatible classes would outright skip the bad challenge rifts if they couldn't even fish for better circumstances. I know for sure that I wouldn't even try with DH if the rift always contained ghosts, archers and winged assassins.
I'm just spit-balling here, but what about the option to "save" up to 10 Grifts, so that they can be replayed as many times as you want, with whoever you want. That way we at least have a reliable way to test different builds and/or party compositions in a very practical and meaningful way, or simply gauge character progression.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
"Truth is like a lion. Don't try to defend it. Let it loose. It will defend itself" Augustine of Hippo
Well, they farm kills/ranks/weapon crates/keys to open them in CS...
My D3 armory
My Youtube Channel
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
Well it's PvP....
"Truth is like a lion. Don't try to defend it. Let it loose. It will defend itself" Augustine of Hippo
It's really such an easy fix if they meant for D3 to be a competitive game in the first place. All the need is to rank based on average time of X number of Grifts in a row. Fail one, and it's doesn't count.
This way RNGing high rifts is out of the picture since you have to be able to consistently clear whatever you are attempting. So players will have to compete based on time, while playing on a difficulty they can actually clear vs a variety of mobs. At the same time it would naturally be less annoying to try for rank since at least you're playing rift difficulties you can complete.
This is the reason why PvP tournaments in most games use a "Best Of" format, so RNG doesn't become the main factor. D3 using a best of 1 rift format makes it impossible to be competitive with skill as the main factor.
Okay so, in 2.4 we get Set Dungeons, I like!
Source: http://www.diablofans.com/news/48841-blizzcon-2016-day-2-live-updates
Yay?!
I am really excited for this feature.
It is simply a start to get the community more involved in the actual game. With everything that they have talked about, I am really looking forward to the future of this game, which is clearly far from Maint Mode.