Running an M6 multishot build is it better to equip the DML (100% multishot buff) and cube the rucksack... or equip the rucksack (100% sentry dmg) and cube the DML? I would guess it's better to equip the rucksack (100% sentry dmg X number of sentries), but anyone know for sure?
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"My final offer is this: nothing. Not even the fee for the gaming license, which I would appreciate if you would put up personally."
Wear Compass Rose/Travelers Pledge. Wear either RoRG or Convention (whichever is best) and cube the other. Cube Dawn and Deadmans and wear Visage of Gunes.
If hitting under 60% twice applies to sentries shooting multishot as well, this could be very powerful
ps. obviously you are using Yangs Recurve as your weapon and rucksack as your quiver..
Basically bombsack is going to exclude your original shots and only affect sentry output (plus +2 sentries is a clear winner).
DML is going to affect the original shot therefore sentries will duplicate that shot.
You can't carry 3 rocks with 2 arms, Dawn is indispensible, therefore cube is reserved. There's no choice there..
I thought rucksack was probably the winner. Thanks for answering.
Yeah I'm at work or I might have thought about Dawn.
These people expect me to work when there is D3 to play... savages.
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"My final offer is this: nothing. Not even the fee for the gaming license, which I would appreciate if you would put up personally."
Quivers are categorized under weapon slot in cube.
Why try to attach MS to Marauder while there's already a strong set maxing out the skill? Current NS rank1 is UE/MS build btw..
you are right, bummer. However if it had been possible to combine both quivers without loosing 100% vengeance it would have been well worth it in my opinion! Also, I've run both the cluster arrow and multishot versions of M6 and frankly, I prefer multishot, although at the moment I have an almost perfect yangs recurve so until I get a Manticore of similar quality I can't make a fair comparison.
ps. I've been very impressed with U.E. Personally, I'm finding it to be stronger than M6, but again, I have almost perfect U.E. gear across the board so it is probably not a fair comparison.
You can abandon Dawn if you have max cdr on each and every possible slot. Maybe even swap one of the gems to Gogok. Then you will have room for Rucksack+DML+YR Bow. But I doubt it's worth over a pure CA build.
You can abandon Dawn if you have max cdr on each and every possible slot. Maybe even swap one of the gems to Gogok. Then you will have room for Rucksack+DML+YR Bow. But I doubt it's worth over a pure CA build.
It could be something worth trying once I've got most of the standard builds all done
As I play on Console, I'll be frank about the fact it is generally much easier to get top end gear, with endless mats at our disposal..
ps. With Unhallowed, a friend suggested a great build variation which I'm gearing up for now, and which you may want to try:
Endless Walk, Stone of Jordan (with Fire or Cold for solo or group respectively), +Elite Damage, Socket and +10 Discipline, then roll off mainstat for +Crit Damage, and cube convention. I think this is quite likely going to be stronger than focus restraint, that +10 Disc is 200% more Multishot damage.
ps. and finally, a way to get some solid elite damage
I would wear dead man's for the 100% Multishot bonus which effects 95% of your damage. The orange text on DML is super strong as well, like roughly x1.6 strong.
I would cube bombardier rucksack for the additional 2 sentries that are detrimental to M6 damage. You lose the +100% sentry damage on rucksack.
With dawn you need like 36% cdr for permanent vengeance, with obsidian ring of the zodiac it is easy for yangs IAS bonus and 2h bow speed it gets dramatically easier to reset. IAS of MS can reach 5.46 aps using pain enhancer.
Nay - sayers will claim that you lose CoE by using zodiac and that's partially true. You can use endless walk, ring neck combo and utilize a X2 multiplier over Focus and Restraint's X2.25 multiplier. This loses the the passive on hellfire ammy and x.25. What I do with the extra skill slot is caltrops bait the trap (no need for generator now) and replace wraps of clarity with reapers wraps. I think bait the trap is stronger then most damage passives beyond cull the weak.
So you lose a bit of dmg using endlesswalk, but not much.
I think that this above iteration may not bring the 1-2 target dmg that CA shooting stars brings, but something could be said for hitting 30+ or even 100+ mobs in some spire or caverns maps. Especially at 5.46 IAS and loads of Area dmg
..aaand starve hatred because you have abandoned 40-50% rcr and your generator while inflating your attack speed only to stay short of the 50% MS attack speed you just have abandoned..
You can't replace YR bow, you can't replace Dawn in cube, you can't abandon +2 sentries, there's no real gain or choice at all.
I never abandoned yangs, you seem to be confused. I abandoned dawn and picked up zodiac. Which with around the same cdr as needed with dawn, zodiac can achieve permanent vengeance.
Additionally because of Garwolf in the cube, even if you don't have permanent vengeance you still get 81% DR which is really close to the 81.5% from zoeys + gunes. Thus in the situations where you dish out a fresh 5 sentries in the room and all of your zodiac procs aren't going into vengeance yeah it may drop, but you have the toughness from the extra wolf's always.
I wanted 100% seeth uptime at least in single target situations where sentries aren't eating alot of zodiac procs but I'm not getting bloated IAS from PE and 30% cdr felt a bit over kill, but 23% felt too low.
Vengeance provides 40% damage increase and is also multiplied by the 600% from 6pc. It is a huge portion of the Marauder set's damage output (not mentioning toughness since Visage of Gunes is flexible for this set).
It is critical to have a guarranteed 100% uptime via Dawn+ ~36%cdr.
Zodiac ring will bring nothing but inconsistent vengeance fall-offs which might have a range up to several seconds. You might get away with it in speed runs, TX, but the shift in itemization will not end up well most of the time above a certain level of difficulty.
At first glance CA is beefy, largely due to the fact it hits a very small radius. Let's compare a simular rune Maelstrom.
CA-Maelstrom hits for 650%wd in a 8-10yd circle, with 3×900%wd rockets.
MS-Arsenal hits for 360%wd in a large cone that spans to the furthest reaches of your screen, with 3×600%wd rockets.
Maelstrom's rockets hit 50% harder per hit.
MS cone needs to hit nearly twice (×1.8) as many targets to do more damage then Maelstrom.
Let's add in the yang speed bonus, 50% speed bonus a dynamic multiplier.
Rockets now do the same damage, arsenal hitting faster, maelstrom hitting harder.
MS needed to hit 1.8 more targets, hitting 1.5 faster that number is reduced to ×1.188
What these numbers tell me is that maelstrom is roughly 2-9% stronger fighting 1 to 4 targets, 5 being even, and 6+ clearly in favor of MS.
Not trying to attack you but CA is only juicy in cost, and I think MS + yangs + DML, has stronger multipliers then CA + Manti + rucksack cookie cutter. No one talks about LfB, which could prove to be the best rune, it's all speculation until variations arise and prove their worth.
As for zodiac and it's inconsistency, at 28% cdr was enough for me to be happy with 95% uptime. I'm confident at 36%, 100% uptime would be possible. If you had actually tested this it's not falling off at all when you are mowing down screens, it falls off when traversing to the next room, and is quickly up again, if not ready by the time you plant. Let's also make note that zodiac is also keeping wolf up, as well as 50 hatred every 5-8 seconds so zodiac's use isn't only benefiting vengeance like dawn would.
All you have said this entire page is that it's not really worth trying, another set does it better, dawn is irreplaceable, and CA hits harder without much data to back the claims.
I think it is "you" who is supposed to back his claims since I can't see anyone using a Zodiac ring or multishot with Marauder set among the entire leaderboard.
There's more than enough data around. Youtube is bloating with build videos. There are already several well known top players releasing their own thoughts/ experience/ build guides on several sites.
I've not been able to play since the season has started, all of my data was collected on the PTR, which were two clean gr75 clears on hardcore. I found both yangs and manticore to have simular results in solo, in a group setting I'm sure MS has more potential. This was prior to the rocket nerf, which further leads me in the MS direction.
You are right that I have nothing to show currently, and could be pulling these numbers from thin air. Anticipating when I get back home to start my seasonal HC DH.
I'm a trial/error type rather than napkin maths. I have played with all builds except LoN (couldn't collect right item combo).
I have even messed around S4/M4 chakram build while it was OP for the first days of ptr. So I also have quite an idea (by experimemting) about what works and what doesn't.
For the record I'm not a fan of Vengenace skill, but no matter what option I have tried so far, constant +40% dps, +50%dr, +10hps bonus is way ahead of anything. This is a very negative thing for the variety...
The formulation of Marauder mechanics is more complicated than you tried to compare. Shooting Stars is best rune not only because of the skill's damage potential. It is a physical rune and guess what other skill we use in Marauder build has the same element? Yes it is Vengeance "Seethe" rune, and it is already buffed by +600% damage increase from 6pc bonus, before co-benefitting the elemental damage increase from gear. Sadly same thing wouldn't also count for MS because physical runes are rather gimmick/weak compared to fire or cold.
Running an M6 multishot build is it better to equip the DML (100% multishot buff) and cube the rucksack... or equip the rucksack (100% sentry dmg) and cube the DML? I would guess it's better to equip the rucksack (100% sentry dmg X number of sentries), but anyone know for sure?
"My final offer is this: nothing. Not even the fee for the gaming license, which I would appreciate if you would put up personally."
Last edited by HuckleberryPhlegm: 2 hours from now
Basically bombsack is going to exclude your original shots and only affect sentry output (although it will add +2 sentries).
DML is going to affect the original shot therefore sentries will duplicate that shot.
You can't carry 3 rocks with 2 arms, Dawn is indispensible, therefore cube is reserved. There's no choice there..
MS can't compete with CA, it might have enough output for TX and low rifting though..
what about this:
Wear Compass Rose/Travelers Pledge. Wear either RoRG or Convention (whichever is best) and cube the other. Cube Dawn and Deadmans and wear Visage of Gunes.
If hitting under 60% twice applies to sentries shooting multishot as well, this could be very powerful
ps. obviously you are using Yangs Recurve as your weapon and rucksack as your quiver..
I thought rucksack was probably the winner. Thanks for answering.
Yeah I'm at work or I might have thought about Dawn.
These people expect me to work when there is D3 to play... savages.
"My final offer is this: nothing. Not even the fee for the gaming license, which I would appreciate if you would put up personally."
Last edited by HuckleberryPhlegm: 2 hours from now
Quivers are categorized under weapon slot in cube.
Why try to attach MS to Marauder while there's already a strong set maxing out the skill? Current NS rank1 is UE/MS build btw..
I gots ta get my wings.
"My final offer is this: nothing. Not even the fee for the gaming license, which I would appreciate if you would put up personally."
Last edited by HuckleberryPhlegm: 2 hours from now
ps. I've been very impressed with U.E. Personally, I'm finding it to be stronger than M6, but again, I have almost perfect U.E. gear across the board so it is probably not a fair comparison.
You can abandon Dawn if you have max cdr on each and every possible slot. Maybe even swap one of the gems to Gogok. Then you will have room for Rucksack+DML+YR Bow. But I doubt it's worth over a pure CA build.
6 native slots + 10% on weapon + belt with cdr will net 66%. Gogok gem gives 15% cdr at full stack. So forget what I said before..
It could be something worth trying once I've got most of the standard builds all done
As I play on Console, I'll be frank about the fact it is generally much easier to get top end gear, with endless mats at our disposal..
ps. With Unhallowed, a friend suggested a great build variation which I'm gearing up for now, and which you may want to try:
Endless Walk, Stone of Jordan (with Fire or Cold for solo or group respectively), +Elite Damage, Socket and +10 Discipline, then roll off mainstat for +Crit Damage, and cube convention. I think this is quite likely going to be stronger than focus restraint, that +10 Disc is 200% more Multishot damage.
ps. and finally, a way to get some solid elite damage
To the OP: both
I would wear dead man's for the 100% Multishot bonus which effects 95% of your damage. The orange text on DML is super strong as well, like roughly x1.6 strong.
I would cube bombardier rucksack for the additional 2 sentries that are detrimental to M6 damage. You lose the +100% sentry damage on rucksack.
With dawn you need like 36% cdr for permanent vengeance, with obsidian ring of the zodiac it is easy for yangs IAS bonus and 2h bow speed it gets dramatically easier to reset. IAS of MS can reach 5.46 aps using pain enhancer.
Nay - sayers will claim that you lose CoE by using zodiac and that's partially true. You can use endless walk, ring neck combo and utilize a X2 multiplier over Focus and Restraint's X2.25 multiplier. This loses the the passive on hellfire ammy and x.25. What I do with the extra skill slot is caltrops bait the trap (no need for generator now) and replace wraps of clarity with reapers wraps. I think bait the trap is stronger then most damage passives beyond cull the weak.
So you lose a bit of dmg using endlesswalk, but not much.
I think that this above iteration may not bring the 1-2 target dmg that CA shooting stars brings, but something could be said for hitting 30+ or even 100+ mobs in some spire or caverns maps. Especially at 5.46 IAS and loads of Area dmg
..aaand starve hatred because you have abandoned 40-50% rcr and your generator while inflating your attack speed only to stay short of the 50% MS attack speed you just have abandoned..
You can't replace YR bow, you can't replace Dawn in cube, you can't abandon +2 sentries, there's no real gain or choice at all.
I never abandoned yangs, you seem to be confused. I abandoned dawn and picked up zodiac. Which with around the same cdr as needed with dawn, zodiac can achieve permanent vengeance.
Additionally because of Garwolf in the cube, even if you don't have permanent vengeance you still get 81% DR which is really close to the 81.5% from zoeys + gunes. Thus in the situations where you dish out a fresh 5 sentries in the room and all of your zodiac procs aren't going into vengeance yeah it may drop, but you have the toughness from the extra wolf's always.
I wanted 100% seeth uptime at least in single target situations where sentries aren't eating alot of zodiac procs but I'm not getting bloated IAS from PE and 30% cdr felt a bit over kill, but 23% felt too low.
Vengeance provides 40% damage increase and is also multiplied by the 600% from 6pc. It is a huge portion of the Marauder set's damage output (not mentioning toughness since Visage of Gunes is flexible for this set).
It is critical to have a guarranteed 100% uptime via Dawn+ ~36%cdr.
Zodiac ring will bring nothing but inconsistent vengeance fall-offs which might have a range up to several seconds. You might get away with it in speed runs, TX, but the shift in itemization will not end up well most of the time above a certain level of difficulty.
On the topic of why try to fit MS to M6 when UE6 is already maxing the skill. I believe that MS yangs and DML is carrying UE4 and 6.
UE maxes at 86 spirit(using FnR) so 6pc is a 1720% multiplier, or x18.2 and multiply 4pc x1.6 = x28.52
M6 alone is a 3000% multiplier, and M4 adds another 1500% when all of your sentries can hit the target. Or x31 + x16 = x47
So while you may have to stretch MS M6 to work, it clearly has a justified reward.
CA is way too juicy for the set already.
At first glance CA is beefy, largely due to the fact it hits a very small radius. Let's compare a simular rune Maelstrom.
CA-Maelstrom hits for 650%wd in a 8-10yd circle, with 3×900%wd rockets.
MS-Arsenal hits for 360%wd in a large cone that spans to the furthest reaches of your screen, with 3×600%wd rockets.
Maelstrom's rockets hit 50% harder per hit.
MS cone needs to hit nearly twice (×1.8) as many targets to do more damage then Maelstrom.
Let's add in the yang speed bonus, 50% speed bonus a dynamic multiplier.
Rockets now do the same damage, arsenal hitting faster, maelstrom hitting harder.
MS needed to hit 1.8 more targets, hitting 1.5 faster that number is reduced to ×1.188
What these numbers tell me is that maelstrom is roughly 2-9% stronger fighting 1 to 4 targets, 5 being even, and 6+ clearly in favor of MS.
Not trying to attack you but CA is only juicy in cost, and I think MS + yangs + DML, has stronger multipliers then CA + Manti + rucksack cookie cutter. No one talks about LfB, which could prove to be the best rune, it's all speculation until variations arise and prove their worth.
As for zodiac and it's inconsistency, at 28% cdr was enough for me to be happy with 95% uptime. I'm confident at 36%, 100% uptime would be possible. If you had actually tested this it's not falling off at all when you are mowing down screens, it falls off when traversing to the next room, and is quickly up again, if not ready by the time you plant. Let's also make note that zodiac is also keeping wolf up, as well as 50 hatred every 5-8 seconds so zodiac's use isn't only benefiting vengeance like dawn would.
All you have said this entire page is that it's not really worth trying, another set does it better, dawn is irreplaceable, and CA hits harder without much data to back the claims.
I think it is "you" who is supposed to back his claims since I can't see anyone using a Zodiac ring or multishot with Marauder set among the entire leaderboard.
There's more than enough data around. Youtube is bloating with build videos. There are already several well known top players releasing their own thoughts/ experience/ build guides on several sites.
I've not been able to play since the season has started, all of my data was collected on the PTR, which were two clean gr75 clears on hardcore. I found both yangs and manticore to have simular results in solo, in a group setting I'm sure MS has more potential. This was prior to the rocket nerf, which further leads me in the MS direction.
You are right that I have nothing to show currently, and could be pulling these numbers from thin air. Anticipating when I get back home to start my seasonal HC DH.
I'm a trial/error type rather than napkin maths. I have played with all builds except LoN (couldn't collect right item combo).
I have even messed around S4/M4 chakram build while it was OP for the first days of ptr. So I also have quite an idea (by experimemting) about what works and what doesn't.
For the record I'm not a fan of Vengenace skill, but no matter what option I have tried so far, constant +40% dps, +50%dr, +10hps bonus is way ahead of anything. This is a very negative thing for the variety...
The formulation of Marauder mechanics is more complicated than you tried to compare. Shooting Stars is best rune not only because of the skill's damage potential. It is a physical rune and guess what other skill we use in Marauder build has the same element? Yes it is Vengeance "Seethe" rune, and it is already buffed by +600% damage increase from 6pc bonus, before co-benefitting the elemental damage increase from gear. Sadly same thing wouldn't also count for MS because physical runes are rather gimmick/weak compared to fire or cold.