The idea is to Spam Firebats for long periods of time through Blood Ritual. To compensate the life drain of Blood Ritual, the Firebats heal through the vampire rune and the Soul Harvest will heal too. Considering this witch Doctor will have to get near the enemies for Soul Harvest AND Firebats, I figured Grasp of the Dead was essential for CC.
Any thoughts? Now here's a question for any excel spreadsheet players, how long will I be able to spam the Firebats at level 22? I've heard Firebats take 330 mana per second. Which means I will be losing 50 life per second, but gaining 2.5% of 150% of the damage done per second. Plus the effects of Soul Harvest, which can increase the DPS by 650%.
Is this a conceivable build? Or is this suicidal?
[edit 5/10/12] Here is the level 30 Blood Ritual Doc build after listening to everyone's feedback. Thanks everyone!
I'm not sure why you'd want grasp (beyond the extra damage) since you'll always be in melee range doing firebats. You won't be kiting. Haunt makes this build awesome though. Haunt a few enemies and then start spamming firebats... the heals from haunt should keep you alive.
In an ideal situation, this is how this build would play:
1. Haunt 2 enemies (gain 310 life per second, down 200 mana)
2. Soul Harvest 5 creatures (Gain 200 mana, 650% more DPS)
3. Spam Vampire Bats at 85% cost (blood ritual) for a total of 800% increase DPS.
Let's say your weapon does 25 damage,the Vampire bats would do 600 damage per second at LEVEL 22! This is based upon the firebat spell being cast/channeled three times per second (25 weapon damage * 3 times channeled per second * 800% Soul Harvest and Bat DPS modifiers).
I wonder if it would be better however to swap out the Zdogs/rabid for something else.
Hex offers life with the hedge magic rune, and spirit walk offers potential mana, whereas the dogs offer nothing particularly synergistic with the build since the gargantuan I think should take care of what CC is necessary.
Hex also offers a +10%/20% damage taken debuff on affected enemies depending on the rune (I've heard three is roughly the number that the hex will hex before it expires) which makes it good versus tougher mobs/bosses. The loss of healing here could be recouped from varying lifesteal/gain on kill/hit equipment.
In place of hex, the spiritwalk/Honored guest for mana regen could allow you to run in, soul harvest(Sos), spam a few haunts and get out fairly safely to spam bats from a mostly full pool.
The life drain from the bats is something like 18.3/sec which is pretty negligible. Around 22 with pierce the veil with would also probably necessitate more mana than life generation. This is given that my L13 WD with no EQ in the beta has 404/324 HP/Mana I think, pretty close anyway, and a base 23 mana regen. Soul harvest and vampirebats/consuminghaunt is pretty comprehensive.
Speaking of which, why no pierce the veil. Drop JungleF since the toughness is not so useful since the skills are ranged then there's no reason to hang in melee range except for the soul harvest.
After all this, if dropping the level is important there are some tweaks that can be done to get it down a bit but I think the basic idea is certainly viable.
Soul harvest does not give you 650% more dps when you use it in beta. Where does this come from?
Each soul that is harvested gives you +130 intelligence, which can be stacked up to five times. That is 650 intelligence. Since intelligence is the WD's primary attribute, his DPS goes up by 1% for each point of intelligence. Many people in the beta said this was over powered; however, some argued that later in the game 650 intelligence won't be as powerful because your equipment gives you more attribute points. Regardless, it is very powerful and wrecks havoc.
GREAT Suggestions! You're right about the Zdogs. They were just kind of thrown in and don't add to the rest of the build. Got a question on spirit walk. Does it leave behind a physical body that can still take a beating? You're right too about the vampire bat healing being negligible. I may play around with launching dire bats from afar or plague/hungry bats. Spirit walk is a great addition, since that will replenish 30% of the mana and get out of trouble! Good call with Pierce the Veil too, since this build has fast mana/low casting cost so it can afford the 30% mana premium to do 20% more damage. At level 30, I'll pick up the Spirit Vessel passive, which will help me cast Spirit Walk and Soul Harvest more often.
I don't want to ruin your dreams m8 but soul harvest on beta gave +30(not + 130) intelligence per monster(up to 5 stacks),so that is like 150 intellegence on 5 stacks.Still powerful but not even close on that you described!
Thanks for the info. I just found a comment on a thread on diablo 3's forum saying that Soul Harvest gives you 2 intelligence per level w/ a base of 10 and it maxes out at 130 at level 60. If accurate, that would explain why you were getting around 30 intelligence per soul in the Beta and why it says 130 intelligence on the official skill calculator.
GREAT Suggestions! You're right about the Zdogs. They were just kind of thrown in and don't add to the rest of the build. Got a question on spirit walk. Does it leave behind a physical body that can still take a beating? You're right too about the vampire bat healing being negligible. I may play around with launching dire bats from afar or plague/hungry bats. Spirit walk is a great addition, since that will replenish 30% of the mana and get out of trouble! Good call with Pierce the Veil too, since this build has fast mana/low casting cost so it can afford the 30% mana premium to do 20% more damage. At level 30, I'll pick up the Spirit Vessel passive, which will help me cast Spirit Walk and Soul Harvest more often.
I couldn't disagree any more with this statement. You do realize that Zdogs was the cornerstone of your build? You ABSOLUTELY NEED the zombie dogs in there if you plan on playing like you described. You can't have a million monsters banging on you while you channel spells that hurt you. You need the dogs + garg to distract enemies and keep them off of you so that you can continue to spam firebats without dying.
You do realize that Zdogs was the cornerstone of your build? You ABSOLUTELY NEED the zombie dogs in there if you plan on playing like you described. You can't have a million monsters banging on you while you channel spells that hurt you. You need the dogs + garg to distract enemies and keep them off of you so that you can continue to spam firebats without dying.
You're right. There needs to be some type of diversion/tanking/kiting mechanic for non-melee characters to survive. I figure with a party of 4, w/ a tank or two, this build will be just fine. If I am soloing or going in w/ minimal tanks, then I may swap out the Gargantuan for the Z dogs. The Gargantuan looks freaking cool, but having 3 dogs may be better at engaging multiple enemies than one big summon. I'll have to see how the game plays out.
Haunt is now a cornerstone of this build, since it is my source of life regen. And Spirit Walk is a great fit, because it gets me out of trouble and replenishes 1/3rd of my mana every 13 seconds (with the spirit vessel passive)! The main point of the build is high DPS bats for prolonged periods of time. At this time, I'm not interested in creating a summoning WD, although it would be cool to build a HUGE army...but not for this build. With the three dogs or the gargantuan, I should be able to stay in the clear and not have to kite around like an ice wizard.
[edit 8:00 pm] Just read this quote from Jay WIlson, "One of the newest pets that we've added to the Witch Doctor, which is the Gargantuan, which is a big giant, kind of, tough zombie creature that is designed more to absorb damage and kind of distract enemies."
I'm hurt that you'd think Khrull would just wander straight into and hang in melee range of mobs. But imho, I don't think most mobs will be /that/ threatening for the careful player. Even against quick, extra life, vortex/teleporters/waller the spirit walk's a good getaway and assuming the mobs dont kick it right off the bat you can assume that at least some of the mobs will be distracted.
I suppose we haven't seen much yet in the way of difficulty but seeing extra quick mobs I think the normal action will be to maintain distance, position yourself behind your summons, and get ready rather than rush in headlong for a soulharvest. Anyway, in a party this looks to be a pretty decent frontline dps dealer and roughly the same as I intend to work at except swapping the summons for some other CC spells since I do intend to play in a party more often than not and the spells allow for a little more personal control.
Ah, but what do we really know until the game comes out? Being a roguelike gamer (zangband mostly, and a little dcstonesoup) I proceed carefully even if it only looks like a small brown rat (or in this case a treasure goblin).
It's easy enough to check if you have the beta. I believe the mouse over graphic for int tells you how much it increases damage by. I know I looked at this the past weekend and I'm pretty sure when I had Soul Harvest up (which makes my int above 100) it was still a 1:1 ratio. I'm not 100% sure though, I might be mis-remembering.
//edit: Tried it over lunch. It still adds 1% damage after 100 int. I'm not sure where you got that info from.
Blood Ritual is going to be very useful in Inferno, because health is going to scale while mana will not. Here's why, creatures will be doing 10's of thousands of points of damage to your health, so therefore, your HP will have to increase dramatically. However, the only thing that does "damage" to mana are your spells...and those cost the same at level 60 as they do at level one. Therefore, while your HP's will probably be in the 5 digits later in the game, it is unlikely that mana will. Therefore, the 15% drain to your health from blood ritual is going to be practically "free" at later levels.
Spell mana costs go up with a seemingly set amount of points per level increase.
However, the general idea behind your statement is sound. However I would've loved too see Blood Ritual a bit more potent, 15% doesn't feel like so good >_>
Thanks for the response. That's good to know that the mana costs go up as you level. I am also using pierce the veil in combo with blood ritual. So at the end of the day, I'm using two passives to do 20% more damage at 15% more mana cost. Most people who do Pierce the Veil will be paying 30% more mana to do 20% more damage. Is that worth using up two passives for?
I think pierce is really crappy unless you have an odd build that relies on one of the primary skills for the main source of damage.
In other words, it's specialized. I'm using Firebats, which do a LOT of damage, especially with Soul Harvest & 20% more damage. But if you're doing a summoner's build, which is going to be a huge % of WD's out there, then there are much better passives to choose.
In WOW, I remember a priest joining my party and he coudn't heal worth Sh*t, but he did a LOT of DOT damage. It worked & defied expectations. In this case, people may be expecting a small army of miscreants, but instead will get a a heavy firebat breathing DPSer.
I think pierce is really crappy unless you have an odd build that relies on one of the primary skills for the main source of damage.
I disagree, I think with the right build and perhaps supplementary items you could get some use out of it.
Sacrifice - Pride for instance can restore your entire mana bar np.
Vision quest would seem to yield and absurd amount of mana if you can keep 4 skills on CD. (especially if it includes mana regen affixes, which are listed as +14 man atm.)
There is also a Hit mana = 12.
Max Mana of +150
The health gained by blood ritual is at lest partially consumed by the health loss component. Its really only worth looking at the 15% mana reduction imo.
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I think pierce is really crappy unless you have an odd build that relies on one of the primary skills for the main source of damage.
I disagree, I think with the right build and perhaps supplementary items you could get some use out of it.
Sacrifice - Pride for instance can restore your entire mana bar np.
Vision quest would seem to yield and absurd amount of mana if you can keep 4 skills on CD. (especially if it includes mana regen affixes, which are listed as +14 man atm.)
There is also a Hit mana = 12.
Max Mana of +150
The health gained by blood ritual is at lest partially consumed by the health loss component. Its really only worth looking at the 15% mana reduction imo.
True... I guess I didn't fully state my thoughts there, lol. It's only good if you're mana capped (have more mana than you can spend).
You'll be spending 30% more mana if you use pierce which means you will cast 30% less spells but the spells will do 20% more damage. Seems like a crappy deal to me... at the cost of one of your passive slots even.
There is of course, the benefit of doing more upfront damage. If you want to have a burst damage build, pierce is for you. However, realize that you will be giving up a lot of long term dps. It's a bit of a trap passive imo. It sounds good at first look but if you sit down and think about the tradeoffs... it's really not worth it unless your build is made with it in mind (no mana skills, low mana skills).
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The idea is to Spam Firebats for long periods of time through Blood Ritual. To compensate the life drain of Blood Ritual, the Firebats heal through the vampire rune and the Soul Harvest will heal too. Considering this witch Doctor will have to get near the enemies for Soul Harvest AND Firebats, I figured Grasp of the Dead was essential for CC.
Any thoughts? Now here's a question for any excel spreadsheet players, how long will I be able to spam the Firebats at level 22? I've heard Firebats take 330 mana per second. Which means I will be losing 50 life per second, but gaining 2.5% of 150% of the damage done per second. Plus the effects of Soul Harvest, which can increase the DPS by 650%.
Is this a conceivable build? Or is this suicidal?
[edit 5/10/12] Here is the level 30 Blood Ritual Doc build after listening to everyone's feedback. Thanks everyone!
I made it better though http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#acYdeT!ZX!aZaZaa
I'm not sure why you'd want grasp (beyond the extra damage) since you'll always be in melee range doing firebats. You won't be kiting. Haunt makes this build awesome though. Haunt a few enemies and then start spamming firebats... the heals from haunt should keep you alive.
I added the Swallow your Soul rune to the Soul Harvest, to pump up mana.
In an ideal situation, this is how this build would play:
1. Haunt 2 enemies (gain 310 life per second, down 200 mana)
2. Soul Harvest 5 creatures (Gain 200 mana, 650% more DPS)
3. Spam Vampire Bats at 85% cost (blood ritual) for a total of 800% increase DPS.
Let's say your weapon does 25 damage, the Vampire bats would do 600 damage per second at LEVEL 22! This is based upon the firebat spell being cast/channeled three times per second (25 weapon damage * 3 times channeled per second * 800% Soul Harvest and Bat DPS modifiers).
Hex offers life with the hedge magic rune, and spirit walk offers potential mana, whereas the dogs offer nothing particularly synergistic with the build since the gargantuan I think should take care of what CC is necessary.
Hex also offers a +10%/20% damage taken debuff on affected enemies depending on the rune (I've heard three is roughly the number that the hex will hex before it expires) which makes it good versus tougher mobs/bosses. The loss of healing here could be recouped from varying lifesteal/gain on kill/hit equipment.
In place of hex, the spiritwalk/Honored guest for mana regen could allow you to run in, soul harvest(Sos), spam a few haunts and get out fairly safely to spam bats from a mostly full pool.
The life drain from the bats is something like 18.3/sec which is pretty negligible. Around 22 with pierce the veil with would also probably necessitate more mana than life generation. This is given that my L13 WD with no EQ in the beta has 404/324 HP/Mana I think, pretty close anyway, and a base 23 mana regen. Soul harvest and vampirebats/consuminghaunt is pretty comprehensive.
Speaking of which, why no pierce the veil. Drop JungleF since the toughness is not so useful since the skills are ranged then there's no reason to hang in melee range except for the soul harvest.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#acUdeT!XW!aZZaaa
After all this, if dropping the level is important there are some tweaks that can be done to get it down a bit but I think the basic idea is certainly viable.
Each soul that is harvested gives you +130 intelligence, which can be stacked up to five times. That is 650 intelligence. Since intelligence is the WD's primary attribute, his DPS goes up by 1% for each point of intelligence. Many people in the beta said this was over powered; however, some argued that later in the game 650 intelligence won't be as powerful because your equipment gives you more attribute points. Regardless, it is very powerful and wrecks havoc.
this is the same for all other primary attributes for the other classes.
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GREAT Suggestions! You're right about the Zdogs. They were just kind of thrown in and don't add to the rest of the build. Got a question on spirit walk. Does it leave behind a physical body that can still take a beating? You're right too about the vampire bat healing being negligible. I may play around with launching dire bats from afar or plague/hungry bats. Spirit walk is a great addition, since that will replenish 30% of the mana and get out of trouble! Good call with Pierce the Veil too, since this build has fast mana/low casting cost so it can afford the 30% mana premium to do 20% more damage. At level 30, I'll pick up the Spirit Vessel passive, which will help me cast Spirit Walk and Soul Harvest more often.
Are you sure about this? I haven't seen that bit of info anywhere.
Thanks for the info. I just found a comment on a thread on diablo 3's forum saying that Soul Harvest gives you 2 intelligence per level w/ a base of 10 and it maxes out at 130 at level 60. If accurate, that would explain why you were getting around 30 intelligence per soul in the Beta and why it says 130 intelligence on the official skill calculator.
I couldn't disagree any more with this statement. You do realize that Zdogs was the cornerstone of your build? You ABSOLUTELY NEED the zombie dogs in there if you plan on playing like you described. You can't have a million monsters banging on you while you channel spells that hurt you. You need the dogs + garg to distract enemies and keep them off of you so that you can continue to spam firebats without dying.
You're right. There needs to be some type of diversion/tanking/kiting mechanic for non-melee characters to survive. I figure with a party of 4, w/ a tank or two, this build will be just fine. If I am soloing or going in w/ minimal tanks, then I may swap out the Gargantuan for the Z dogs. The Gargantuan looks freaking cool, but having 3 dogs may be better at engaging multiple enemies than one big summon. I'll have to see how the game plays out.
Haunt is now a cornerstone of this build, since it is my source of life regen. And Spirit Walk is a great fit, because it gets me out of trouble and replenishes 1/3rd of my mana every 13 seconds (with the spirit vessel passive)! The main point of the build is high DPS bats for prolonged periods of time. At this time, I'm not interested in creating a summoning WD, although it would be cool to build a HUGE army...but not for this build. With the three dogs or the gargantuan, I should be able to stay in the clear and not have to kite around like an ice wizard.
[edit 8:00 pm] Just read this quote from Jay WIlson, "One of the newest pets that we've added to the Witch Doctor, which is the Gargantuan, which is a big giant, kind of, tough zombie creature that is designed more to absorb damage and kind of distract enemies."
I suppose we haven't seen much yet in the way of difficulty but seeing extra quick mobs I think the normal action will be to maintain distance, position yourself behind your summons, and get ready rather than rush in headlong for a soulharvest. Anyway, in a party this looks to be a pretty decent frontline dps dealer and roughly the same as I intend to work at except swapping the summons for some other CC spells since I do intend to play in a party more often than not and the spells allow for a little more personal control.
Ah, but what do we really know until the game comes out? Being a roguelike gamer (zangband mostly, and a little dcstonesoup) I proceed carefully even if it only looks like a small brown rat (or in this case a treasure goblin).
Whoa whoa whoa - this is news to me.
Can you provide a link or data which confirms this?
im sorry, i cant find the source any more, but im pretty sure i read it somewhere might be wrong :/ if so im terribly sorry.
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//edit: Tried it over lunch. It still adds 1% damage after 100 int. I'm not sure where you got that info from.
Thanks for the response. That's good to know that the mana costs go up as you level. I am also using pierce the veil in combo with blood ritual. So at the end of the day, I'm using two passives to do 20% more damage at 15% more mana cost. Most people who do Pierce the Veil will be paying 30% more mana to do 20% more damage. Is that worth using up two passives for?
I think it's strong in terms of prolonged DPS.
In other words, it's specialized. I'm using Firebats, which do a LOT of damage, especially with Soul Harvest & 20% more damage. But if you're doing a summoner's build, which is going to be a huge % of WD's out there, then there are much better passives to choose.
In WOW, I remember a priest joining my party and he coudn't heal worth Sh*t, but he did a LOT of DOT damage. It worked & defied expectations. In this case, people may be expecting a small army of miscreants, but instead will get a a heavy firebat breathing DPSer.
I disagree, I think with the right build and perhaps supplementary items you could get some use out of it.
Sacrifice - Pride for instance can restore your entire mana bar np.
Vision quest would seem to yield and absurd amount of mana if you can keep 4 skills on CD. (especially if it includes mana regen affixes, which are listed as +14 man atm.)
There is also a Hit mana = 12.
Max Mana of +150
The health gained by blood ritual is at lest partially consumed by the health loss component. Its really only worth looking at the 15% mana reduction imo.
Epicurus
True... I guess I didn't fully state my thoughts there, lol. It's only good if you're mana capped (have more mana than you can spend).
You'll be spending 30% more mana if you use pierce which means you will cast 30% less spells but the spells will do 20% more damage. Seems like a crappy deal to me... at the cost of one of your passive slots even.
There is of course, the benefit of doing more upfront damage. If you want to have a burst damage build, pierce is for you. However, realize that you will be giving up a lot of long term dps. It's a bit of a trap passive imo. It sounds good at first look but if you sit down and think about the tradeoffs... it's really not worth it unless your build is made with it in mind (no mana skills, low mana skills).