First off, I'm very unsure about what role weapon speed has on different types of skills. I'm hoping we can come to an agreement about how things work so everyone can understand what impact weapon speed has on all skills. Please correct me if I'm incorrect
One thing I've noticed from playing the beta is that your weapon choice plays a huge role on how much damage you'll do with certain skills.
Dire Bats is the skill that I see the biggest difference in. If you try the skill out with a 1 hander, it's pretty good but if you pull out a 2-hander it destroys things in 1 hit. It makes me wonder, why would you ever want to use a 1 hander with an ability such as dire bats? It doesn't matter how fast you can cast because you're still limited by your mana pool. If you can still deplete your pool with a slower weapon why would you want a faster weapon?
I understand certain abilities behave differently and that's one aspect of the game that I don't understand very well at all. To put it bluntly, I'm pretty confused about that. It seems like DoTs and channeled spells account for weapon speed in some way but I'm not sure how.
Instant Damage Spells
It seems like instant damage spells are based on your listed weapon damage. You can cast the spell more often if it's a quicker weapon but it will do more damage if it's a slower weapon (of the same dps of course).
This would mean it's far better to have a slower weapon. Since we are limited by our resource, attack speed does not matter. This is assuming that you can hit the bottom of your resource pool.
Conclusion: Slower weapons are better if you're using resource spending spells. Faster weapons are just as good if you're using signature skills. Faster weapons are better if you're using resource generators because they will do the same damage but generate resources quicker. Slower weapons are FAR better if you're using an ability with a cooldown.
Channeled Spells
I'm a little unsure how these work. I know the damage is done every second and the amount of damage is based on a cycle. For example, if you have a weapon that attacks once every 2 seconds, the damage for the first second will be half the damage.
Conclusion: I believe weapon speed doesn't matter for channeled spells?
DoTs
I believe DoTs do their DPS value instead of the damage range of the weapon. So a 15 dps 1 hander and a 15 dps 2 hander will do the same DoT damage over the effect of the spell.
Conclusion: This would mean that weapon speed has no effect on DoT skills?
It seems like a slower weapon is always better for a WD since we don't have generators. Is this incorrect? It would be a shame considering our class specific weapon is a dagger.
Also, Do pets attack speed depend on your attack speed? they seem to work based on its damage and not be affected by atack speed meaning here another instance of high damage favored for the Doc...
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If that made sense to you, Bravo! I think I even confused myself...
The damage listed in channeled spells is the total damage the spell will do during one full cycle. For example, if you have a weapon that makes you hit once every two seconds, it would take two seconds for the channeled spell to do the full amount of damage listed.
I know this is a little confusing, but it makes sense in practice. Try it out in the Beta and I encourage you to post some feedback in the Beta Feedback forums
In otherwords, they both do 215% weapon damage, but a faster weapon will do it in smaller/faster "bites" and the slower, harder hitting weapon would do it in larger/slow chuncks. At leasts thats how I read it.
It would be like: (Damage Numbers)
Fast weapon: 3.4.3.1.2.4.3.3.4.4.7.4.2.1.3
Slow Weapon: 5....6.....7.....5.....6.....5.....5......7.......12......4
This would explain why when you use Bats whith a slow weapon it feels so OP, that first hit is harder.. Especially in the beta when things just dont take much to kill. Later in the game, when you actualy have to cast Bats on somthing for longer than 1 "cycle" it would not be so noticeable a difference and would become more of a "taste" thing.
I could be wrong of course.
The damage listed in channeled spells is the total damage the spell will do during one full cycle. For example, if you have a weapon that makes you hit once every two seconds, it would take two seconds for the channeled spell to do the full amount of damage listed.
I know this is a little confusing, but it makes sense in practice. Try it out in the Beta and I encourage you to post some feedback in the Beta Feedback forums
In otherwords, they both do 215% weapon damage, but a faster weapon will do it in smaller/faster "bites" and the slower, harder hitting weapon would do it in larger/slow chuncks. At leasts thats how I read it.
It would be like: (Damage Numbers)
Fast weapon: 3.4.3.1.2.4.3.3.4.4.7.4.2.1.3
Slow Weapon: 5....6.....7.....5.....6.....5.....5......7.......12......4
This would explain why when you use Bats whith a slow weapon it feels so OP, that first hit is harder.. Especially in the beta when things just dont take much to kill. Later in the game, when you actualy have to cast Bats on somthing for longer than 1 "cycle" it would not be so noticeable a difference and would become more of a "taste" thing.
I could be wrong of course.
I completely agree about this for firebats without the dire bat rune.
However, after you add the dire bat rune, it's no longer a channeled spell, it's an instant damage spell instead. That is when it feels completely overpowered when you start using a slower weapon. Sure, you can't cast it as fast but it doesn't matter because you can't spam it anyway due to mana concerns. You'll have more time to cast signature spells with a faster weapon, but that will not make up for the massive amount of damage bats does with a 2 hander.
-Raptor
That's a good point about pet damage. I'm also completely in the dark about how pets scale. I know they scale for damage but do they scale with weapon speed as well?
I for one (not really sure why, maybe just personal preference>?) really like the way dual wielding fast weapons as mele, or a fast 1 hander and a shield feels as mele WAY more than using a slow two hander as mele.
But for the casters, Wheneer I find a two handed stave in the beta, I switch to it, and I like the feel of the slow hard hitting spells alot better.
Most certainly agree about being in the dark when it comes to almost all things minion related. I posted that as a suggestion for the official site, on our new post here on dfans. We need a section of the WD page on the official site that explains stuff like:
How your minions health scales
How your minions damage is calculated (do their attacks get slow if you have a slow weapon?)
Which of your stats trasnfer to them and in what quanities? (Crit, Life on hit, defenses.. all that stuff)
The fact we are so clueless right now of how our minions will work/feel in late game is one of the reasons I'm leaning Wizard for launch.
I for one (not really sure why, maybe just personal preference>?) really like the way dual wielding fast weapons as mele, or a fast 1 hander and a shield feels as mele WAY more than using a slow two hander as mele.
But for the casters, Wheneer I find a two handed stave in the beta, I switch to it, and I like the feel of the slow hard hitting spells alot better.
Most certainly agree about being in the dark when it comes to almost all things minion related. I posted that as a suggestion for the official site, on our new post here on dfans. We need a section of the WD page on the official site that explains stuff like:
How your minions health scales
How your minions damage is calculated (do their attacks get slow if you have a slow weapon?)
Which of your stats trasnfer to them and in what quanities? (Crit, Life on hit, defenses.. all that stuff)
The fact we are so clueless right now of how our minions will work/feel in late game is one of the reasons I'm leaning Wizard for launch.
really we just need a final say on the exact runes and skills that are affected by attackspeed.
I for one (not really sure why, maybe just personal preference>?) really like the way dual wielding fast weapons as mele, or a fast 1 hander and a shield feels as mele WAY more than using a slow two hander as mele.
But for the casters, Wheneer I find a two handed stave in the beta, I switch to it, and I like the feel of the slow hard hitting spells alot better.
Most certainly agree about being in the dark when it comes to almost all things minion related. I posted that as a suggestion for the official site, on our new post here on dfans. We need a section of the WD page on the official site that explains stuff like:
How your minions health scales
How your minions damage is calculated (do their attacks get slow if you have a slow weapon?)
Which of your stats trasnfer to them and in what quanities? (Crit, Life on hit, defenses.. all that stuff)
The fact we are so clueless right now of how our minions will work/feel in late game is one of the reasons I'm leaning Wizard for launch.
Melee feels better with faster weapons because they rely on generators. The faster you attack, the more resources you have. I can't stand playing a monk with a 2 hander (barb is more tolerable). It's fairly balanced I think because you'll be able to cast your resource spenders more often with faster weapons to make up for them doing less damage.
The wizard and WD feel better with slower weapons though and I think it's because we have a fixed resource. The only thing a slower weapon does is slow down how quickly we go through our resource but it's never so slow that we are resource capped.
We had a pretty in-depth conversation about this in #diablo last night.
In general: If your build uses ANY proc abilities (e.g. generators, on-hit effects, on-crit effects, so on) You will benefit from faster attack speed.
If you build uses NO proc abilities, then you will benefit from slower attack speed.
That is under the assumption you will stand still.
But since.. no one will be standing still. You will need to be moving between abilities, and having a faster attack speed will allow you to fire off those spells quicker.
In practice: Faster attack speed is (almost)ALWAYS better than slower attack speed.
We had a pretty in-depth conversation about this in #diablo last night.
In general: If your build uses ANY proc abilities (e.g. generators, on-hit effects, on-crit effects, so on) You will benefit from faster attack speed.
If you build uses NO proc abilities, then you will benefit from slower attack speed.
That is under the assumption you will stand still.
But since.. no one will be standing still. You will need to be moving between abilities, and having a faster attack speed will allow you to fire off those spells quicker.
In practice: Faster attack speed is (almost)ALWAYS better than slower attack speed.
Is the attack animation slower with slower attack speed or is there just an internal cooldown? I thought I could move after casting a dire bat... I could try it again later tonight. It may of been that I didn't care that I couldn't move because A) I had dogs out and B.) the beta is really really easy
Either way, a WD with summons out won't have to move as much as other classes so slower weapons are without a doubt better.
Pretty sure this is how this stuff works, but correct me if I'm wrong about something...
1) Dire Bats is a nuke, not a channeled spell I believe.
2) Dots / channeled spells work off fixed intervals. In general, it's been said that the interval is 0.5sec, but Rapid Fire for example has much faster intervals. These intervals don't change based on weapon speed.
What they mean in the Blue Post is that if you have a weapon that does 200 damage / 2sec using a 100% skill, if the cycle is 0.5sec, it will do 50 damage every cycle, and take 2sec to do the full damage of the skill. As opposed to if you did 200 damage / 1sec, it would take 1sec to do full damage (over 2 cycles). But in both situations your DPS is what it should be.
And in terms of moving around while firing, a higher attack speed isn't really better unless you're saying that it somehow triggers the casting animation faster, but I wouldn't expect that to save much time really. If you cast a channeled spell for 0.5sec, you'll do the same damage no matter what your attack speed is, as long as the weapon damage is the same. Because 250 damage w/ 2.0 attack speed = 500 damage w/ 1.0 attack speed. And over 0.5sec you'll do 250 damage in both cases.
3) However, the dot / channeled spell damage works off your DPS so the faster the weapon, the more damage you'll do, the more mana you'll spend. The Wizard and Witch Doctor don't have generators typically, so faster weapons probably aren't as good for them because the general idea is that with a faster weapon you spend resource quickly, but you generate it quickly too. This is less true for the Wizard and Witch Doctor.
4) Proc abilities / Life Per Hit is going to have an internal cooldown or some kind of penalty that makes it so abilities like Rapid Fire aren't so powerful.
5) I would expect that pet damage works the same as dots / channeled spells. The pets have a fixed attack interval that cannot be altered, but their damage will increase if you increase your attack speed without losing damage.
6) Basically, it usually doesn't matter much whether your weapon is slow or fast, it's just that fast weapons should work better for proccing stuff and using abilities that don't have cooldowns, like Fetish Sychophants for example. And slow weapons are better for something like Sacrifice.
7) The key in all of this is finding out how the penalties / internal cooldowns work for Life Per Hit and all On-Proc abilities. Only when you do that can you really know what weapon speed is best for your build...
Pretty sure this is how this stuff works, but correct me if I'm wrong about something...
1) Dire Bats is a nuke, not a channeled spell I believe.
2) Dots / channeled spells work off fixed intervals. In general, it's been said that the interval is 0.5sec, but Rapid Fire for example has much faster intervals. These intervals don't change based on weapon speed.
What they mean in the Blue Post is that if you have a weapon that does 200 damage / 2sec using a 100% skill, if the cycle is 0.5sec, it will do 50 damage every cycle, and take 2sec to do the full damage of the skill. As opposed to if you did 200 damage / 1sec, it would take 1sec to do full damage (over 2 cycles). But in both situations your DPS is what it should be.
And in terms of moving around while firing, a higher attack speed isn't really better unless you're saying that it somehow triggers the casting animation faster, but I wouldn't expect that to save much time really. If you cast a channeled spell for 0.5sec, you'll do the same damage no matter what your attack speed is, as long as the weapon damage is the same. Because 250 damage w/ 2.0 attack speed = 500 damage w/ 1.0 attack speed. And over 0.5sec you'll do 250 damage in both cases.
3) However, the dot / channeled spell damage works off your DPS so the faster the weapon, the more damage you'll do, the more mana you'll spend. The Wizard and Witch Doctor don't have generators typically, so faster weapons probably aren't as good for them because the general idea is that with a faster weapon you spend resource quickly, but you generate it quickly too. This is less true for the Wizard and Witch Doctor.
4) Proc abilities / Life Per Hit is going to have an internal cooldown or some kind of penalty that makes it so abilities like Rapid Fire aren't so powerful.
5) I would expect that pet damage works the same as dots / channeled spells. The pets have a fixed attack interval that cannot be altered, but their damage will increase if you increase your attack speed without losing damage.
6) Basically, it usually doesn't matter much whether your weapon is slow or fast, it's just that fast weapons should work better for proccing stuff and using abilities that don't have cooldowns, like Fetish Sychophants for example. And slow weapons are better for something like Sacrifice.
7) The key in all of this is finding out how the penalties / internal cooldowns work for Life Per Hit and all On-Proc abilities. Only when you do that can you really know what weapon speed is best for your build...
Right, I believe that's how it works but doesn't that prove that slow weapons are the best for casters? Nukes are based on weapon damage so you will do more damage with the limited amount of resource that we have.
In general, yeah. Specifically for the WD I think. Because we don't have real resource generators.
WDs only have like 5 nuke spells though (excluding generators). We certainly have more dots / channeled spells.
But yeah, that being said, slow weapons are going to be best for the WD when using these spells. But if you're using dots / channeled spells it doesn't really matter so much.
Wizards aren't as simple though because they have far more on-proc abilities and have a lot more abilities that have runes to generate Arcane Power.
Having a fast attack speed endgame will likely mean that you're dual wielding (as opposed to just like using a fast dagger). So it makes sense that the casters are better off using a slow weapon because they'll have orbs/dolls/shields as opposed to like DHs, Monks and Barbs where it makes more sense for them to have two weapons.
Last thing I'll say is that fast attack speed seems to make the most sense for the Monk because his resource is so static, it doesn't really regen or go away, at least not without gear/runes and he doesn't get it for being hit. So it makes sense to generate it quickly. Also, because of how combos work, the faster you attack the more 3rd hits you get making faster APS the best for the Monk in my opinion.
It really seems like Mana/AP regen should be affected by weapon speed. That would make a lot more sense and bring it along the same lines of the other classes.
I dunno though, it seems fairly unbalanced on all sides. You won't want a 2 hander for 3 classes and the other 2 classes won't want 1 handers. Why couldn't they develop a system that was actually balanced?
It is worth mentioning that the WD dolls will have mana regen on them. I don't think it will be worth giving up so much damage but if you don't have a direct damage build, a 1 hander + doll will be better.
Did you know that damage of Gasp of the Dead's rune "Groping Eels" actually scales with attack speed?
It is the only rune variant that has a damage that scales with having a greater attack speed, not dps.
It is worth mentioning that the WD dolls will have mana regen on them. I don't think it will be worth giving up so much damage but if you don't have a direct damage build, a 1 hander + doll will be better.
Are we sure that the added damage that dolls give (it seems that all Dolls and Orbs give a bonus to damage) does not help equalize one handers with two handers? I was of the opinion that the bonus affixis you get from a Doll and its flat damage boost were usually at least equal to, if not greater than using a two handed weapon meaning that a 1-hander plus doll is not a sacrifice in damage at all, but rather grants an increase in versatility.
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If that made sense to you, Bravo! I think I even confused myself...
fast. all +damage adds a clean damage bonus, and having a fast weapon will give the biggest DPS boost
everything else, crit/ crit damage/ speed/str/dex/int give the same amount of "all over" bonus in the long run, +damage will give a bigger bonus to fast weapons.
It is worth mentioning that the WD dolls will have mana regen on them. I don't think it will be worth giving up so much damage but if you don't have a direct damage build, a 1 hander + doll will be better.
Are we sure that the added damage that dolls give (it seems that all Dolls and Orbs give a bonus to damage) does not help equalize one handers with two handers? I was of the opinion that the bonus affixis you get from a Doll and its flat damage boost were usually at least equal to, if not greater than using a two handed weapon meaning that a 1-hander plus doll is not a sacrifice in damage at all, but rather grants an increase in versatility.
At least in the beta, the answer is no. The dolls add 1-2 damage and the slow 2 handers do much more damage than that. I was doing some testing last night to compare my rare dagger + doll to my 2 hander and it wasn't even close. The bats consistently did 20% more damage with the slower weapon of same DPS.
I even tried a slow weapon that was 3 dps less than my rare dagger and the slower weapon still outperformed the dagger (although it was a bit closer).
Did you know that damage of Gasp of the Dead's rune "Groping Eels" actually scales with attack speed?
It is the only rune variant that has a damage that scales with having a greater attack speed, not dps.
Feel Smart.
So what you're saying is that if you have a 2.0 speed vs 1.0 with the same DPS, Grasp ticks twice as often for the same amount of damage? I'm not sure about that...
If you have two weapons that do 150 damage, one with a 2.0 speed and one as 1.0, the 2.0 speed should make the built-in Grasp cycles do more damage each tick, and this damage increase would be reflected in your DPS.
fast. all +damage adds a clean damage bonus, and having a fast weapon will give the biggest DPS boost
everything else, crit/ crit damage/ speed/str/dex/int give the same amount of "all over" bonus in the long run, +damage will give a bigger bonus to fast weapons.
This is actually true... + Damage is better when you have a faster weapon. However, + Mana / + Mana Regeneration is better when you have a slower weapon. Even channeled/dot spells should cost more mana with a faster weapon. So you're using more mana to get the same amount of DPS. Of course this applies most heavily to the WD as said before.
But yeah... + Damage is better with a faster weapon because it's not a percentage increase.
Basically... faster weapons will do less damage in a lot of scenarios but if your off-hand gives + Damage or + Mana it could equalize it. And I would expect the + Mana / + Damage that OHs give to be significant so that they equal the benefits of using a 2H.
At least in the beta, the answer is no. The dolls add 1-2 damage and the slow 2 handers do much more damage than that. I was doing some testing last night to compare my rare dagger + doll to my 2 hander and it wasn't even close. The bats consistently did 20% more damage with the slower weapon of same DPS.
I even tried a slow weapon that was 3 dps less than my rare dagger and the slower weapon still outperformed the dagger (although it was a bit closer).
Was this using Dire Bats? I assume it was, because it would contradict the whole cycle system. Regular Fire Bats should be based off your DPS. I would expect it to multiply your DPS by 150% and then cut it in half for each 0.5sec interval. Of course it will fluctuate because your DPS is an average, and truly the damage is based off your min/max damage.
The only difference you should see with Fire Bats is that with a faster weapon (assuming same DPS) you will use more mana. And as said above, you'll get a greater bonus from + Damage and have OH stats as well.
__
People should keep in mind that the major differences in attack speed for the WD and Wizard will occur based on using a 2H vs 1H + OH/Shield. Meaning that that damage you lose by using a 1H (with a faster attack speed) would be made up by your OH (in most scenarios) one way or another. So if you're using a lot of dots, you'll lose mana without a damage gain by using a faster weapon, but your OH might have + Mana on it or + Damage that makes your 1H = your 2H in terms of long-term DPS.
This isn't reflected well in the Beta because everything is so weak.
At least as far as normal is concerned... I think a 2H is better because your resources won't be taxed so much because everything will be pretty weak. It's easier to find a good 2H than a good 1H and a good OH. It just doesn't make much sense to go with a fast attack speed early on. But by Inferno, I would expect that they'll even out, and honestly, a 1H + and OH will most likely be better because you'll have more flexibility.
The only difference you should see with Fire Bats is that with a faster weapon (assuming same DPS) you will use more mana. And as said above, you'll get a greater bonus from + Damage and have OH stats as well.
Right, I'm only talking about direct damage spells now. I'm convinced that both channeled and DoTs are pretty balanced around weapon speed.
Unless things change, if you have a direct damage spell in your build, it would be foolish to use a 1 hander.
Well yeah, 2Hs are going to be better, especially in the early game... until you find OHs that give you both + Mana and + Damage (ando ther things) to make them equal to and better than 2Hs you find. Using a 1H with single target abilities could certainly be better than a 2H if it fits your build and has the right stats. Eventually you'll be able to calculate whether the + Damage / + Mana (etc) you get from an OH makes it better than a 2H. Essentially, the + Mana and + Damage should compensate for the increased mana cost and damage you lose going with a 1H.
This will be kind of complicated though because these stats are on other parts of gear of course. So having +Dmg rings will be better for you if you have a 1H... just depends on itemization.
But in the early game when everything is pretty easy and you don't have a lot of stats, you're definitely correct that we should be using 2H weapons with as high damage as possible (most likely with Dire Bats, because it's one of the highest single target damage spells in the game and we get it at level 11). I don't see any reason you wouldn't use a 2H early in the game as a WD... just like I don't see why you wouldn't get Dire Bats / Soul Harvest.
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One thing I've noticed from playing the beta is that your weapon choice plays a huge role on how much damage you'll do with certain skills.
Dire Bats is the skill that I see the biggest difference in. If you try the skill out with a 1 hander, it's pretty good but if you pull out a 2-hander it destroys things in 1 hit. It makes me wonder, why would you ever want to use a 1 hander with an ability such as dire bats? It doesn't matter how fast you can cast because you're still limited by your mana pool. If you can still deplete your pool with a slower weapon why would you want a faster weapon?
I understand certain abilities behave differently and that's one aspect of the game that I don't understand very well at all. To put it bluntly, I'm pretty confused about that. It seems like DoTs and channeled spells account for weapon speed in some way but I'm not sure how.
Instant Damage Spells
It seems like instant damage spells are based on your listed weapon damage. You can cast the spell more often if it's a quicker weapon but it will do more damage if it's a slower weapon (of the same dps of course).
This would mean it's far better to have a slower weapon. Since we are limited by our resource, attack speed does not matter. This is assuming that you can hit the bottom of your resource pool.
Conclusion: Slower weapons are better if you're using resource spending spells. Faster weapons are just as good if you're using signature skills. Faster weapons are better if you're using resource generators because they will do the same damage but generate resources quicker. Slower weapons are FAR better if you're using an ability with a cooldown.
Channeled Spells
I'm a little unsure how these work. I know the damage is done every second and the amount of damage is based on a cycle. For example, if you have a weapon that attacks once every 2 seconds, the damage for the first second will be half the damage.
Conclusion: I believe weapon speed doesn't matter for channeled spells?
DoTs
I believe DoTs do their DPS value instead of the damage range of the weapon. So a 15 dps 1 hander and a 15 dps 2 hander will do the same DoT damage over the effect of the spell.
Conclusion: This would mean that weapon speed has no effect on DoT skills?
It seems like a slower weapon is always better for a WD since we don't have generators. Is this incorrect? It would be a shame considering our class specific weapon is a dagger.
From: http://www.diablofan...-do-215-damage/
Official Blizzard Quote:
Hey guys,
The damage listed in channeled spells is the total damage the spell will do during one full cycle. For example, if you have a weapon that makes you hit once every two seconds, it would take two seconds for the channeled spell to do the full amount of damage listed.
I know this is a little confusing, but it makes sense in practice. Try it out in the Beta and I encourage you to post some feedback in the Beta Feedback forums
In otherwords, they both do 215% weapon damage, but a faster weapon will do it in smaller/faster "bites" and the slower, harder hitting weapon would do it in larger/slow chuncks. At leasts thats how I read it.
It would be like: (Damage Numbers)
Fast weapon: 3.4.3.1.2.4.3.3.4.4.7.4.2.1.3
Slow Weapon: 5....6.....7.....5.....6.....5.....5......7.......12......4
This would explain why when you use Bats whith a slow weapon it feels so OP, that first hit is harder.. Especially in the beta when things just dont take much to kill. Later in the game, when you actualy have to cast Bats on somthing for longer than 1 "cycle" it would not be so noticeable a difference and would become more of a "taste" thing.
I could be wrong of course.
I completely agree about this for firebats without the dire bat rune.
However, after you add the dire bat rune, it's no longer a channeled spell, it's an instant damage spell instead. That is when it feels completely overpowered when you start using a slower weapon. Sure, you can't cast it as fast but it doesn't matter because you can't spam it anyway due to mana concerns. You'll have more time to cast signature spells with a faster weapon, but that will not make up for the massive amount of damage bats does with a 2 hander.
-Raptor
That's a good point about pet damage. I'm also completely in the dark about how pets scale. I know they scale for damage but do they scale with weapon speed as well?
I for one (not really sure why, maybe just personal preference>?) really like the way dual wielding fast weapons as mele, or a fast 1 hander and a shield feels as mele WAY more than using a slow two hander as mele.
But for the casters, Wheneer I find a two handed stave in the beta, I switch to it, and I like the feel of the slow hard hitting spells alot better.
Most certainly agree about being in the dark when it comes to almost all things minion related. I posted that as a suggestion for the official site, on our new post here on dfans. We need a section of the WD page on the official site that explains stuff like:
How your minions health scales
How your minions damage is calculated (do their attacks get slow if you have a slow weapon?)
Which of your stats trasnfer to them and in what quanities? (Crit, Life on hit, defenses.. all that stuff)
The fact we are so clueless right now of how our minions will work/feel in late game is one of the reasons I'm leaning Wizard for launch.
really we just need a final say on the exact runes and skills that are affected by attackspeed.
Melee feels better with faster weapons because they rely on generators. The faster you attack, the more resources you have. I can't stand playing a monk with a 2 hander (barb is more tolerable). It's fairly balanced I think because you'll be able to cast your resource spenders more often with faster weapons to make up for them doing less damage.
The wizard and WD feel better with slower weapons though and I think it's because we have a fixed resource. The only thing a slower weapon does is slow down how quickly we go through our resource but it's never so slow that we are resource capped.
In general: If your build uses ANY proc abilities (e.g. generators, on-hit effects, on-crit effects, so on) You will benefit from faster attack speed.
If you build uses NO proc abilities, then you will benefit from slower attack speed.
That is under the assumption you will stand still.
But since.. no one will be standing still. You will need to be moving between abilities, and having a faster attack speed will allow you to fire off those spells quicker.
In practice: Faster attack speed is (almost)ALWAYS better than slower attack speed.
Is the attack animation slower with slower attack speed or is there just an internal cooldown? I thought I could move after casting a dire bat... I could try it again later tonight. It may of been that I didn't care that I couldn't move because A) I had dogs out and B.) the beta is really really easy
Either way, a WD with summons out won't have to move as much as other classes so slower weapons are without a doubt better.
1) Dire Bats is a nuke, not a channeled spell I believe.
2) Dots / channeled spells work off fixed intervals. In general, it's been said that the interval is 0.5sec, but Rapid Fire for example has much faster intervals. These intervals don't change based on weapon speed.
What they mean in the Blue Post is that if you have a weapon that does 200 damage / 2sec using a 100% skill, if the cycle is 0.5sec, it will do 50 damage every cycle, and take 2sec to do the full damage of the skill. As opposed to if you did 200 damage / 1sec, it would take 1sec to do full damage (over 2 cycles). But in both situations your DPS is what it should be.
And in terms of moving around while firing, a higher attack speed isn't really better unless you're saying that it somehow triggers the casting animation faster, but I wouldn't expect that to save much time really. If you cast a channeled spell for 0.5sec, you'll do the same damage no matter what your attack speed is, as long as the weapon damage is the same. Because 250 damage w/ 2.0 attack speed = 500 damage w/ 1.0 attack speed. And over 0.5sec you'll do 250 damage in both cases.
3) However, the dot / channeled spell damage works off your DPS so the faster the weapon, the more damage you'll do, the more mana you'll spend. The Wizard and Witch Doctor don't have generators typically, so faster weapons probably aren't as good for them because the general idea is that with a faster weapon you spend resource quickly, but you generate it quickly too. This is less true for the Wizard and Witch Doctor.
4) Proc abilities / Life Per Hit is going to have an internal cooldown or some kind of penalty that makes it so abilities like Rapid Fire aren't so powerful.
5) I would expect that pet damage works the same as dots / channeled spells. The pets have a fixed attack interval that cannot be altered, but their damage will increase if you increase your attack speed without losing damage.
6) Basically, it usually doesn't matter much whether your weapon is slow or fast, it's just that fast weapons should work better for proccing stuff and using abilities that don't have cooldowns, like Fetish Sychophants for example. And slow weapons are better for something like Sacrifice.
7) The key in all of this is finding out how the penalties / internal cooldowns work for Life Per Hit and all On-Proc abilities. Only when you do that can you really know what weapon speed is best for your build...
Right, I believe that's how it works but doesn't that prove that slow weapons are the best for casters? Nukes are based on weapon damage so you will do more damage with the limited amount of resource that we have.
WDs only have like 5 nuke spells though (excluding generators). We certainly have more dots / channeled spells.
But yeah, that being said, slow weapons are going to be best for the WD when using these spells. But if you're using dots / channeled spells it doesn't really matter so much.
Wizards aren't as simple though because they have far more on-proc abilities and have a lot more abilities that have runes to generate Arcane Power.
Having a fast attack speed endgame will likely mean that you're dual wielding (as opposed to just like using a fast dagger). So it makes sense that the casters are better off using a slow weapon because they'll have orbs/dolls/shields as opposed to like DHs, Monks and Barbs where it makes more sense for them to have two weapons.
Last thing I'll say is that fast attack speed seems to make the most sense for the Monk because his resource is so static, it doesn't really regen or go away, at least not without gear/runes and he doesn't get it for being hit. So it makes sense to generate it quickly. Also, because of how combos work, the faster you attack the more 3rd hits you get making faster APS the best for the Monk in my opinion.
I dunno though, it seems fairly unbalanced on all sides. You won't want a 2 hander for 3 classes and the other 2 classes won't want 1 handers. Why couldn't they develop a system that was actually balanced?
It is worth mentioning that the WD dolls will have mana regen on them. I don't think it will be worth giving up so much damage but if you don't have a direct damage build, a 1 hander + doll will be better.
Did you know that damage of Gasp of the Dead's rune "Groping Eels" actually scales with attack speed?
It is the only rune variant that has a damage that scales with having a greater attack speed, not dps.
Feel Smart.
Are we sure that the added damage that dolls give (it seems that all Dolls and Orbs give a bonus to damage) does not help equalize one handers with two handers? I was of the opinion that the bonus affixis you get from a Doll and its flat damage boost were usually at least equal to, if not greater than using a two handed weapon meaning that a 1-hander plus doll is not a sacrifice in damage at all, but rather grants an increase in versatility.
everything else, crit/ crit damage/ speed/str/dex/int give the same amount of "all over" bonus in the long run, +damage will give a bigger bonus to fast weapons.
At least in the beta, the answer is no. The dolls add 1-2 damage and the slow 2 handers do much more damage than that. I was doing some testing last night to compare my rare dagger + doll to my 2 hander and it wasn't even close. The bats consistently did 20% more damage with the slower weapon of same DPS.
I even tried a slow weapon that was 3 dps less than my rare dagger and the slower weapon still outperformed the dagger (although it was a bit closer).
So what you're saying is that if you have a 2.0 speed vs 1.0 with the same DPS, Grasp ticks twice as often for the same amount of damage? I'm not sure about that...
If you have two weapons that do 150 damage, one with a 2.0 speed and one as 1.0, the 2.0 speed should make the built-in Grasp cycles do more damage each tick, and this damage increase would be reflected in your DPS.
This is actually true... + Damage is better when you have a faster weapon. However, + Mana / + Mana Regeneration is better when you have a slower weapon. Even channeled/dot spells should cost more mana with a faster weapon. So you're using more mana to get the same amount of DPS. Of course this applies most heavily to the WD as said before.
But yeah... + Damage is better with a faster weapon because it's not a percentage increase.
Basically... faster weapons will do less damage in a lot of scenarios but if your off-hand gives + Damage or + Mana it could equalize it. And I would expect the + Mana / + Damage that OHs give to be significant so that they equal the benefits of using a 2H.
Was this using Dire Bats? I assume it was, because it would contradict the whole cycle system. Regular Fire Bats should be based off your DPS. I would expect it to multiply your DPS by 150% and then cut it in half for each 0.5sec interval. Of course it will fluctuate because your DPS is an average, and truly the damage is based off your min/max damage.
The only difference you should see with Fire Bats is that with a faster weapon (assuming same DPS) you will use more mana. And as said above, you'll get a greater bonus from + Damage and have OH stats as well.
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People should keep in mind that the major differences in attack speed for the WD and Wizard will occur based on using a 2H vs 1H + OH/Shield. Meaning that that damage you lose by using a 1H (with a faster attack speed) would be made up by your OH (in most scenarios) one way or another. So if you're using a lot of dots, you'll lose mana without a damage gain by using a faster weapon, but your OH might have + Mana on it or + Damage that makes your 1H = your 2H in terms of long-term DPS.
This isn't reflected well in the Beta because everything is so weak.
At least as far as normal is concerned... I think a 2H is better because your resources won't be taxed so much because everything will be pretty weak. It's easier to find a good 2H than a good 1H and a good OH. It just doesn't make much sense to go with a fast attack speed early on. But by Inferno, I would expect that they'll even out, and honestly, a 1H + and OH will most likely be better because you'll have more flexibility.
Right, I'm only talking about direct damage spells now. I'm convinced that both channeled and DoTs are pretty balanced around weapon speed.
Unless things change, if you have a direct damage spell in your build, it would be foolish to use a 1 hander.
This will be kind of complicated though because these stats are on other parts of gear of course. So having +Dmg rings will be better for you if you have a 1H... just depends on itemization.
But in the early game when everything is pretty easy and you don't have a lot of stats, you're definitely correct that we should be using 2H weapons with as high damage as possible (most likely with Dire Bats, because it's one of the highest single target damage spells in the game and we get it at level 11). I don't see any reason you wouldn't use a 2H early in the game as a WD... just like I don't see why you wouldn't get Dire Bats / Soul Harvest.