First off, I would just like to say that PETA is an extremest group and in no way reflects the normal degree of ideas and beliefs of the majority of vegans and vegetarians. I 100% agree with you about PETA being counter productive.
Glad to hear this from a vegan. I've taken to calling them "PITA," because they are just that (Pain In The Ass) around here and it's obnoxious to hear them speak, much less watch them demonstrate. One of the handfull of vegan professors I know is a member and of the lot he's probably the least informed, irony of fanatacism.
Anyways, I think there are many reasons to increase plant agriculture and cut back on animal agriculture. One of the biggest reasons is that meat has a lot of negative health effects that have been linked to it, especially when it is consumed as often as it is in the U.S. such as heart disease, atherosclerosis, colon cancer (and recently they are starting to think other forms of cancer as well), endometriosis. Also, products like milk and eggs have been linked to similar health effects. Couple that with all the chemicals they use to beef up the animals on factory farms, and you have something pretty unhealthy.
Fair point, but milk and egg protien are widely considered to be some of the most beneficial (if you aren't in one of the genetic groups who have problems digesting it) too. As for meat in general, I think the jury is out. The protien itself is not generally cited as unhealthy so much as the fat used to prepare it (and that can be avoided) and I would imagine that this is another thing that certain genotypes have problems with more than others. Food (esp. fast food) industries won't regulate themselves, so ultimately it's up to people to make the choice. I do know quite a few people who would rather die young than live without hamburgers and fries (we'll see if they change their mind after the first heart attack).
Another very good reason is the environmental impact on which animal agriculture has. It produces more green house gases than all forms of travel (cars, planes, trains, jets) combined and is often responsible for water pollution, deforestation for animal feed production/room for more farm land. There are many other environmental impacts as well if you choose to look around.
You'd have to make a compelling case that the land would be arable and otherwise productive for growing a nutritional crop as well as one that's worth the time to farm. I know a lot of pig farming goes on in the appalachain region, but it's due in some part to the fact the land is garbage and the alternative farming methods don't grow much, at least not enough to sustain the local farming communities. Regular agriculture has become a large-scale operation that has forced out a lot of small farmers becaue the margins are so slim. Livestock have a better margin and can be more-or-less family run businesses without becoming huge conglomerates.
I am not even saying we should end all farms, and if you are going to buy meat you should ALWAYS buy from local farmers who give their animals healthy diets and do not inject them with a load of chemicals.
This stuff is mostly red-herring, imo. The vast majority of the "chemicals," used to treat livestock are applied in order to keep them healthy and prevent the consumer from recieving dangerous contaminated meat. The industry itself is regulated out the wazoo. I know a chicken farmer (retired professor) in Virginia who has two on-site inspectors there at all times. If anything happens to those chickens that's remotely questionable, he's slapped with a fine and has to shut down, clean up, and allow them to investigate.
That isn't to say that the food industry is beyond reproach, but the totally-organic/hate-all-chemicals movement is mis-informed. A lot of the "organic," operations out there are actually less safe for the producer and consumer because they are forced to use antequated methods of preventing defects and keeping the stock healthy. I recall an article not too many years ago where some of the organic farmers in Oregon were using DDT instead of modern pesticides. The modern pesticides are obviously safer than DDT, which was shown to have horrific environmental impacts and was (rightfully) banned decades ago.
You said it in your first post. Why not find local farmers that raise, kill and butcher their animals in a humane and natural way.
I could say the same thing that vegan/vegetarians say about meat about vegetables. That farmers mass producing veggies using massive amounts of chemicals and pesticides and injecting plants with steroids that make them grow faster and becoming tasteless. Chemicals that are killing bees in massive quantities I might add. And don't get me started on honey, that's another mass production story.
You know a cucumber grown naturally only lasts 2-3 days, then it starts to rot. Compared to a cucumber that is mass produced that last 2-3 weeks because of all the enhancements. Same thing with tomatoes that are canned or sold "fresh" at supermarkets. Canned tomatoes are picked WAY before they are ripe and still green. They are canned while green and super heated to get them to turn red. Eat a "fresh" tomato like an apple at the supermarket and they are tasteless and full of water. I could go on about more veggies. I'm not saying the same doesn't go for meat but there are places where you can get meat that came from animals that weren't treated like mass production hormone injected zombies.
http://vimeo.com/32367993 I like what he says at 22:00 and it's true about animals and veggies. I've been growing my own tomatoes, eggplants, cucumbers, carrots, peppers, and a number of herbs for the last 4 years and no supermarket veggie can compare. If you don't like seeing meat cut then you should skip over to 22.
I would also like to add that meat in America tastes like shit compared to anywhere else in the world. I go to Armenian and France every year and the beef/pork/chicken/fish ex tastes way better because it's so much more natural.
You said it in your first post. Why not find local farmers that raise, kill and butcher their animals in a humane and natural way.
Animals are butchered in a more "humane," way by modern facilities than by the old-world kosher/halaal setups. In-fact some countries have moved to ban the traditional methods because they are refusing to stun the animals before they're slaughtered (which is the requisite practice of any slaughterhouse in the first world that doesn't have a "my religion says not to," pass). Furthermore, all those nasty corporations mass-producing food are the sole reason the earth can sustain its ballooning population. Unless you figure getting 1/10th the yield per acre and simultaneously starving off a proportional sum of the world's population is a good deal, I fail to see what you're driving at. If the old methods had been sustainable and profitable, they wouldn't have developed new technologies to make the process more efficient (which came about because of increased demand, basic economics).
I could say the same thing that vegan/vegetarians say about meat about vegetables. That farmers mass producing veggies using massive amounts of chemicals and pesticides and injecting plants with steroids that make them grow faster and becoming tasteless. Chemicals that are killing bees in massive quantities I might add. And don't get me started on honey, that's another mass production story.
Pesticides since the hay-day of DDT (which is now illegal, and only "ORGANIC," farmers have been caught using it in recent years, fancy that) have become MUCH safer and less environmentally damaging. The genetic treatments given to certain plants have been precisely to avoid the short-falls that required those chemicals we used to use. I've yet to come across an article sharing your fear that wasn't a hopeless smear campaign or some wanton advertising for another bogus "organic," farm charging 5x the normal price for goods which were grown under conditions that might prove dangerous.
You know a cucumber grown naturally only lasts 2-3 days, then it starts to rot. Compared to a cucumber that is mass produced that last 2-3 weeks because of all the enhancements. Same thing with tomatoes that are canned or sold "fresh" at supermarkets. Canned tomatoes are picked WAY before they are ripe and still green. They are canned while green and super heated to get them to turn red. Eat a "fresh" tomato like an apple at the supermarket and they are tasteless and full of water. I could go on about more veggies. I'm not saying the same doesn't go for meat but there are places where you can get meat that came from animals that weren't treated like mass production hormone injected zombies.
You know not all tomatoes are canned? You can get "fresh," tomatoes that are both generically produced and picked by some self-styled "organic," farmer. And i'll be the first to tell you (since I have a tomato plant or two at my cabin) that home-grown tomatoes are not in-fact better than a fresh tomato from the local grocer. My tomatoes are grown in less than ideal conditions, whereas any self-respecting tomato grower is going to aim for a better setup. Meat is an entirely different animal (lol) when it comes to production, but the result is the same. Meat produced by industrial scale factories is in-fact just as healthy for you as meat from a free-range operation. If you get a filet from both places and they ate the same feed, they will have the same nutritional value and taste, and no, the (natural) hormones given to the animals are not seeping into your system: that's another organic propaganda piece.
I'm not defending the concept of veal production as humane here, but when it comes down to arguments about human health, this stuff is a giant pile. The FDA keeps a closer eye on mainstream food quality than it does this new-age stuff.
http://vimeo.com/32367993 I like what he says at 22:00 and it's true about animals and veggies. I've been growing my own tomatoes, eggplants, cucumbers, carrots, peppers, and a number of herbs for the last 4 years and no supermarket veggie can compare. If you don't like seeing meat cut then you should skip over to 22.
I grow a lot of vegetables myself and you're absolutely fooling yourself. I'm a wine snob with a very sensitive pallet and I know my food just as well. If you home-grown veggies taste better than the super-market fare you either shop for low-quality goods or your farming skills are impeccable.
I would also like to add that meat in America tastes like shit compared to anywhere else in the world. I go to Armenian and France every year and the beef/pork/chicken/fish ex tastes way better because it's so much more natural.
That would imply that those animals are being fed something different as that is the only variable that could really change the flavor of their meat significantly. I don't doubt the possibility you favor animals being fed a different grain, but to assume that a different flavor is indicative of the overall quality of national food supplies is absurd.
I'm all for bagging on the animal processing industries dark side and espousing the virtues of growing your own produce (because I think it's a rewarding past-time), but this nonsense about mainstream food being inherently dangerous is absolute nonsense and a rumor that needs to be squelched. You get exactly what you pay for in America. If you buy the ground beef that costs 99cents you better expect that it's the collected anuses and refuse of whatever they swept off the slaughterhouse floor last night. If you pay premium for a cut of steak at a reputable grocer, you're getting the same high-quality beef that you would be getting anywhere else that cows are raised for slaughter.
Strait from the FDA's website on Organic Food Guidelines:
No conclusive evidence shows that organic food is more nutritious than is conventionally grown food. And the USDA — even though it certifies organic food — doesn't claim that these products are safer or more nutritious.
You mean the FDA that approves the unhealthy crap that they serve at public schools all over America. You mean the FDA that approves the use of pink slime in food and doesn't inform the customer about. BTW I knew about this stuff about Jamie Olivers show. The chef at the restaurant I worked at told me about it a few years back. They're another government run organization that approves unhealthy practices in food that they don't disclose to the general public. And the fact that YOU of all people believe them makes me think a little. I will have some rebuttals in the morning, I'm kind of tired.
The chef at the restaurant I worked at told me about it a few years back.
In order to avoid the sarcasm that is boiling over in my head at this point, I will be succinct: A chef is not a better source of information on this matter. Being trained to cook does not make one any more or less knowledgeable about the practice of growing safe produce.
They're another government run organization that approves unhealthy practices in food that they don't disclose to the general public. And the fact that YOU of all people believe them makes me think a little. I will have some rebuttals in the morning, I'm kind of tired.
As opposed to an organization that has no oversight besides its board of directors? I'm all for the critique of federal agencies, but the scientific reviews are out there for your perusal. Find me an academic, peer-reviewed, scholarly study that found industry standards to produce a sub-standard product (and please don't bother with the crap that compares sushi with Mc Burgers, we all know that fast food is the cheapest crap possible and that isn't in question).
I hope you do have some insightful replies to provide. I would love to have some illuminating information, regardless of whether or not it supports my thesis. It goes without saying; however, that I have not read a single reputable study that indicated to me that I have been misleading.
Not meaning to be mean or insulting, but I never saw why people are vegan or vegetarian at all. I mean we are omnivores so I kind of thought it was a bit weird (not meaning to mean or anything).
I have a workmate that is recently vegan or almost vegan at least. I'm not a hundred percent sure but I think it's more of a health choice for him. He's told me a few guys he knows who are vegans say they feel noticably better on a vegan diet. I Think the hardest thing with a vegan diet is finding alternative protien sources, my mate works out so he needs to keep that high intake of protien. He uses a mixture of pea protien powder, rice protien powder and normal whey protien powder to suppliment his diet. From what i've heard tho, protiens found in vegetables have differences to meat protien and have some shortfalls apparently, I haven't done any research on it yet tho.
Also, if your vegan/vegetarian be mindful of your more starchy produce e.g. potatoes, corn, white rice, white pasta, they're high GI and will spike your insulin levels
Personally I am a meat eater, I've only recently started bodybuilding so I need to make sure my protien intake is nice and high. Living in Australia I am fortunate enough to have an abundant source of good quality, very lean, high protien, fully organic, and most importantly cheap meat, kangaroo, which I eat quite alot of. But I also eat fish(salmon or tuna)/beef/chicken usually twice a day but I would have three times the amount of veges than meat, with any meal ;). The leaner the meat the better!
My opinion on eating meat is that the more organic/lean the meat, the less health complications you'll come across.
One thing though is I have pretty skeptical views on how US citizens eat, seen many programmes with extreme obesety, and the whole McDonalds culture.
After watching Man v Food my opinion not only worsened by about 10fold but I also now get why people want to cut out meat alltogether. This excessive eating that this man does is just completely wrong, and this whole idea of "lets make bigger size everything" only results in more fat kids and more leftovers that you could probably feed another country with simular population on.
This is a legitimate concern. The way food is prepared in fast-food (hell, any run of the mill restaurant really) establishments is deplorable and the competitive eating/popular food TV stuff is not helpful either. People in the US like to bitch about public insurance and healthcare, but they fail to realize the whole reason private coverage is sky high: because the population is obese and at increased risk for everything related to their awful diet.
Of course, there are two ways to remedy the situation and neither of them would pass in congress.
1) Let the fat fucks die (the libertarian method).
2) Levy a tax on the production or consumption of highly-unhealthy foods similar to those on tobacco and alcohol (the progressive method).
That just leaves us with the main-stream right-of-center status quo:
3) Get fat, go to the ER, get indigent care, force medicare costs up to astronomical highs, and then complain about UN-sustainable healthcare costs while trying to keep a strait face.
Animals are butchered in a more "humane," way by modern facilities than by the old-world kosher/halaal setups. In-fact some countries have moved to ban the traditional methods because they are refusing to stun the animals before they're slaughtered (which is the requisite practice of any slaughterhouse in the first world that doesn't have a "my religion says not to," pass).
I never said anything about “old-world” kosher/halaal ways of butchering animals. There are many slaughterhouses that use modern methods of stunning the animal before killing them. They are raising animals that are free to roam and fed healthy food.
Furthermore, all those nasty corporations mass-producing food are the sole reason the earth can sustain its ballooning population. Unless you figure getting 1/10th the yield per acre and simultaneously starving off a proportional sum of the world's population is a good deal, I fail to see what you're driving at. If the old methods had been sustainable and profitable, they wouldn't have developed new technologies to make the process more efficient (which came about because of increased demand, basic economics).
Again I never said anything about shutting mass production facilities down or anything about old world methods. Your putting words in my mouth that I didn't say.
But if I may. The way they are mass producing food in these massive factories are disgusting. It's wrong in so many ways now it's hard to talk about only one thing. They jam in all these animals into small spaces so they are stressing them which releases all kinds of hormones into the animals body. Then they inject them with who knows what to make them grow faster so they can get them out as fast as possible to make as big a profit as possible.
You know it's supposed/used to take almost a year for a chicken to hatch from an egg to get fully grown for it to be sold. Now it only takes about 2-3 months and there on your table. Have you had an egg right when the chicken produced it? It doesn't compare to an egg that you get at ANY supermarket IDC if its Whole Foods or your run of the mill supermarket. An egg fresh from a chicken has the deepest amber color yolk that is super rich in flavor. Go get an egg from any supermarket and look at the yolk, its a pale yellow color and has lost almost all its flavor. Here are two eggs cooked, one fresh one mass production. Mass produced egg can take up to 2 or 3 weeks before they even reach a supermarket and by then they have lost so much flavor. http://www.practicalhacks.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/DSC_1100a.jpg . I could go on about so many more things, especially the way that mass produced pigs are treated which is probably the absolute worst out of all the animals.
WARNING this video is gross so if you can't take looking at disgusting things you shouldn't watch it, especially the end. http://vimeo.com/11862375 . This was in Spain there is another one with a guy who infiltrated a pig farm in the US and worked there for like 2 years that was doing unspeakable things to their pigs/piglets. He got so many things on video.
I've been to a farm in Maine that has very very good meats because of the way their animals are raised. We went to see how the animals are slaughtered and they stunned every single one before they cut their necks to drain them. I gotta admit it's kind of gross seeing it for the first time but you get used to it.
You know not all tomatoes are canned? You can get "fresh," tomatoes that are both generically produced and picked by some self-styled "organic," farmer. And i'll be the first to tell you (since I have a tomato plant or two at my cabin) that home-grown tomatoes are not in-fact better than a fresh tomato from the local grocer. My tomatoes are grown in less than ideal conditions, whereas any self-respecting tomato grower is going to aim for a better setup.
I know all tomatoes aren't canned. I was talking about canned tomatoes and the fresh tomatoes you pick from the supermarket. And I didn't mean to say that all canned tomatoes aren't good or even great.
You said it yourself you have bad growing conditions. I do everything I can to grow the best veggies and herbs possible. And I can tell you that my cherry tomatoes taste WAY WAY better than anything you can get at any supermarket no matter how much you pay at Whole Foods or Stop&Shop. I have gotten cherry tomatoes from many different supermarkets for cheap and expensive and they have no taste, it's like drinking water.
I don't grow bigger tomatoes because they take up to much room and don't yield as much product. I go to the farmers market to get beautiful heirlooms.
Meat is an entirely different animal (lol) when it comes to production, but the result is the same. Meat produced by industrial scale factories is in-fact just as healthy for you as meat from a free-range operation. If you get a filet from both places and they ate the same feed, they will have the same nutritional value and taste, and no, the (natural) hormones given to the animals are not seeping into your system: that's another organic propaganda piece.
I'm not defending the concept of veal production as humane here, but when it comes down to arguments about human health, this stuff is a giant pile. The FDA keeps a closer eye on mainstream food quality than it does this new-age stuff.
I can say without a doubt in my mind the meat that I have eaten from local farms that have been raised properly; taste head over heels better than anything you can get mass produced. The only place I would get meat and veggies from if I had to(during winter) is from Whole Foods. They have good quality meat, but you have to get it cut fresh and wrapped in paper. Don't get meat that is packed in the styrofoam trays, you never know how long it's been sitting there for.
I grow a lot of vegetables myself and you're absolutely fooling yourself. I'm a wine snob with a very sensitive pallet and I know my food just as well. If you home-grown veggies taste better than the super-market fare you either shop for low-quality goods or your farming skills are impeccable.
I would like to think my farming skills(even though I consider myself an amateur)are pretty good. I buy great soil, feed, fertilizer, ex. I do a lot of stuff to make sure everything comes out great. Is it a lot of work, I'm not going to lie, it is. But it's definitely worth it.
The back tray is all tomatoes. They got a little leggy but I got them under control when my bulbs came in.
I like yourself have a good pallet when it comes to food. I've been working in restaurants since I was 14; from dishwasher to sou chef. I built a wood fired oven in my backyard that I use for pizza, bread, roasting meats and veggies, making ribs and so much more. If I didn't work with my dad I would open my own small restaurant. I don't drink so I can't say anything about wine or alcohol.
In order to avoid the sarcasm that is boiling over in my head at this point, I will be succinct: A chef is not a better source of information on this matter. Being trained to cook does not make one any more or less knowledgeable about the practice of growing safe produce.
How doesn't it if you don't mind me asking? I'm not talking about some random people that work at the Cheese Cake Factory or some other minimum wage work at a random run of the mill eatery that call themselves chefs. I'm talking about people who have been working in the industry for 20+ years and actually go to farms and have relationships with their producers. Places that deserve Michelin stars if you asked a lot of people who go to those few restaurants in Boston.
I agree with you on some things but I have grown up with food and its something that I love. When it comes down to mass production vs locally grown items, locally grown is always better. Because 1)you are supporting your community and they are supporting you. And 2) sorry but I do think it's a lot healthier. Mass production can be doing everything right if they wanted to but they want to maximize their profits so they will do everything and anything to make top dollar. These are my opinions and you obviously have the right to say anything you want but I stand by them till the day I die. Like an Apple user and their products
I never said anything about “old-world” kosher/halaal ways of butchering animals. There are many slaughterhouses that use modern methods of stunning the animal before killing them. They are raising animals that are free to roam and fed healthy food.
The bold part is required of EVERYONE (except the jewish and muslims who are exempted by the religion crap) and has nothing to do with free-range. Furthermore, the fact an animal is free range does not mean it's eating the best food or vice versa. There are less restrictions on the way free-range operations work though, so it wouldn't suprise me if they had lower quality food and got away with it.
Again I never said anything about shutting mass production facilities down or anything about old world methods. Your putting words in my mouth that I didn't say.
But if I may. The way they are mass producing food in these massive factories are disgusting. It's wrong in so many ways now it's hard to talk about only one thing. They jam in all these animals into small spaces so they are stressing them which releases all kinds of hormones into the animals body. Then they inject them with who knows what to make them grow faster so they can get them out as fast as possible to make as big a profit as possible.
What do you know about animal physiology? If you take nothing away from our debate here, I want you to know that this "who knows what hormones and chemicals," stuff is unfounded bullshit (and i've invited you to put some substance behind those claims already.
You know it's supposed/used to take almost a year for a chicken to hatch from an egg to get fully grown for it to be sold. Now it only takes about 2-3 months and there on your table. Have you had an egg right when the chicken produced it? It doesn't compare to an egg that you get at ANY supermarket IDC if its Whole Foods or your run of the mill supermarket. An egg fresh from a chicken has the deepest amber color yolk that is super rich in flavor. Go get an egg from any supermarket and look at the yolk, its a pale yellow color and has lost almost all its flavor. Here are two eggs cooked, one fresh one mass production. Mass produced egg can take up to 2 or 3 weeks before they even reach a supermarket and by then they have lost so much flavor. http://www.practicalhacks.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/DSC_1100a.jpg . I could go on about so many more things, especially the way that mass produced pigs are treated which is probably the absolute worst out of all the animals.
I welcome a peer reivewed study of egg quality, but this urban-myth stuff (politicalhacks, heh) is not furthering your argument except to keep saying "I don't think things taste as good!"
WARNING this video is gross so if you can't take looking at disgusting things you shouldn't watch it, especially the end. http://vimeo.com/11862375 . This was in Spain there is another one with a guy who infiltrated a pig farm in the US and worked there for like 2 years that was doing unspeakable things to their pigs/piglets. He got so many things on video.
Organic farmers could also do this. What are you trying to express?
I've been to a farm in Maine that has very very good meats because of the way their animals are raised. We went to see how the animals are slaughtered and they stunned every single one before they cut their necks to drain them. I gotta admit it's kind of gross seeing it for the first time but you get used to it.
I'll remind you again -THAT IS A LEGAL REQUIREMENT AND INDUSTRY STANDARD- full stop.
I know all tomatoes aren't canned. I was talking about canned tomatoes and the fresh tomatoes you pick from the supermarket. And I didn't mean to say that all canned tomatoes aren't good or even great.
You said it yourself you have bad growing conditions. I do everything I can to grow the best veggies and herbs possible. And I can tell you that my cherry tomatoes taste WAY WAY better than anything you can get at any supermarket no matter how much you pay at Whole Foods or Stop&Shop. I have gotten cherry tomatoes from many different supermarkets for cheap and expensive and they have no taste, it's like drinking water.
I don't grow bigger tomatoes because they take up to much room and don't yield as much product. I go to the farmers market to get beautiful heirlooms.
It sounds like you havea gift for cherry tomato farming then. Well done. If every one of the tomatoes you've purchase elsewhere taste like "water," you haven't shopped much.
I can say without a doubt in my mind the meat that I have eaten from local farms that have been raised properly; taste head over heels better than anything you can get mass produced. The only place I would get meat and veggies from if I had to(during winter) is from Whole Foods. They have good quality meat, but you have to get it cut fresh and wrapped in paper. Don't get meat that is packed in the styrofoam trays, you never know how long it's been sitting there for.
Good point about meat that's been sitting too long, but that's not got a thing to do with the animal itself or the produce either. Quality meat can be found from both traditional and non-traditional sources though. The new diffirence is that, farm-raised organic meat now commands higher prices (necessarily) and thus a vogue appeal.
How doesn't it if you don't mind me asking? I'm not talking about some random people that work at the Cheese Cake Factory or some other minimum wage work at a random run of the mill eatery that call themselves chefs. I'm talking about people who have been working in the industry for 20+ years and actually go to farms and have relationships with their producers. Places that deserve Michelin stars if you asked a lot of people who go to those few restaurants in Boston.
I have a relationship with my accountant too. That doesn't mean I know the details of his job. Animal phsyiology and the biological and engineering aspects of industrial scale farming don't strike me as the kind of thing a Chef would be familiar with, regardless of how respected he was in his own field.
I agree with you on some things but I have grown up with food and its something that I love. When it comes down to mass production vs locally grown items, locally grown is always better. Because 1)you are supporting your community and they are supporting you. And 2) sorry but I do think it's a lot healthier. Mass production can be doing everything right if they wanted to but they want to maximize their profits so they will do everything and anything to make top dollar. These are my opinions and you obviously have the right to say anything you want but I stand by them till the day I die. Like an Apple user and their products
Locally grown, sure. Less travel time is always better, but that isn't the argument going on here because I can go down to my retired friend's chicken farm and buy locally, from an indusrtial producer. We aren't debating local vs. non-local, we are debating modern farming and meat production methods vs. organic free-range methods. As I mentioned previously, there isn't any hard evidence for superiority in the quality of meat and veggies that are produced without the modern technology.
You are of-course entitled to your opinion, but you are not making a good case to change anyone else's opinion. If anything, you should be looking to confirm your opinion empirically and provide us with some data.
I applaud the stand you're making here. However if everyone would switch to a vegetarian (or even vegan) diet, our healthcare system would collapse. While it's true that vegan diets can meet all nutritional requirements, it takes quite a lot of efford to meet them, and many among us have trouble getting a balanced meal WITH meat. Also most vegans have very little reserves, and are thus quite vulnerable when they get ill (or pregnant).
All this does not take away the fact that I agree with you, that our current model of bio-industrie simply lacks any kind of moral standard. I do however believe that the solution to this problem lies in the exclusion of animals in the production of meat. This may sound a bit weird, but scientists are already able to let muscle cells (meat) grow on its own. It is still not suited for normal consumerism, because while they can technically produce meat this way, it lacks the structure normally formed muscles have, and are therefore, gross.
While I cannot imagine this being a solution for a complete vegan, I do believe principle-vegetarians should have no objections to eating meat that has never been online, once the technology is advanced enough to produce actual tasty meat.
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By reading your comments it sounds like you are arguing for the sack of arguing. I don't need scientific proof to tell me the eggs and meats I am eating are better than supermarket varieties. And plus all that scientific proof is done by all those big corporations to "prove" that the free range or organic stuff is no different. Just like the cigarettes companies with all their scientific proof that smoking doesn't cause cancer and kill people. I can taste the difference when I am eating. And about the tomatoes, I've been to a lot of places to buy tomatoes from expensive to cheaper. I'll name all of them since you seem like that kind of person.
By reading your comments it sounds like you are arguing for the sack of arguing. I don't need scientific proof to tell me the eggs and meats I am eating are better than supermarket varieties. And plus all that scientific proof is done by all those big corporations to "prove" that the free range or organic stuff is no different. Just like the cigarettes companies with all their scientific proof that smoking doesn't cause cancer and kill people. I can taste the difference when I am eating. And about the tomatoes, I've been to a lot of places to buy tomatoes from expensive to cheaper. I'll name all of them since you seem like that kind of person.
That's 20. And that's not including all the farmers markets that I've been to that actually have good veggies.
Plausible comment on the scientific data but it still doesn't help your case; taste is a form of opinion not fact. Even if it was you can't quantify or measure superior taste; additionally if we could base fact on taste we would likely require a professional opinion of appointing people with proper taste palates?
An additional comment would be just because you think something tastes better doesn't mean it’s actually better for you; an example would be a placebo "sugar pill” you think your getting better but in the end its all in your head.
BTW I'm just commenting for the sake arguing, I lack the descriptive capabilities to make any proper claims in these forms.
Oh and something interesting with technology and food... Poo Meat
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
Murder is DELICIOUS!!!
Glad to hear this from a vegan. I've taken to calling them "PITA," because they are just that (Pain In The Ass) around here and it's obnoxious to hear them speak, much less watch them demonstrate. One of the handfull of vegan professors I know is a member and of the lot he's probably the least informed, irony of fanatacism.
Fair point, but milk and egg protien are widely considered to be some of the most beneficial (if you aren't in one of the genetic groups who have problems digesting it) too. As for meat in general, I think the jury is out. The protien itself is not generally cited as unhealthy so much as the fat used to prepare it (and that can be avoided) and I would imagine that this is another thing that certain genotypes have problems with more than others. Food (esp. fast food) industries won't regulate themselves, so ultimately it's up to people to make the choice. I do know quite a few people who would rather die young than live without hamburgers and fries (we'll see if they change their mind after the first heart attack).
You'd have to make a compelling case that the land would be arable and otherwise productive for growing a nutritional crop as well as one that's worth the time to farm. I know a lot of pig farming goes on in the appalachain region, but it's due in some part to the fact the land is garbage and the alternative farming methods don't grow much, at least not enough to sustain the local farming communities. Regular agriculture has become a large-scale operation that has forced out a lot of small farmers becaue the margins are so slim. Livestock have a better margin and can be more-or-less family run businesses without becoming huge conglomerates.
This stuff is mostly red-herring, imo. The vast majority of the "chemicals," used to treat livestock are applied in order to keep them healthy and prevent the consumer from recieving dangerous contaminated meat. The industry itself is regulated out the wazoo. I know a chicken farmer (retired professor) in Virginia who has two on-site inspectors there at all times. If anything happens to those chickens that's remotely questionable, he's slapped with a fine and has to shut down, clean up, and allow them to investigate.
That isn't to say that the food industry is beyond reproach, but the totally-organic/hate-all-chemicals movement is mis-informed. A lot of the "organic," operations out there are actually less safe for the producer and consumer because they are forced to use antequated methods of preventing defects and keeping the stock healthy. I recall an article not too many years ago where some of the organic farmers in Oregon were using DDT instead of modern pesticides. The modern pesticides are obviously safer than DDT, which was shown to have horrific environmental impacts and was (rightfully) banned decades ago.
I like the taste of meat better though.
But a good meal for me should consist of both.
I could say the same thing that vegan/vegetarians say about meat about vegetables. That farmers mass producing veggies using massive amounts of chemicals and pesticides and injecting plants with steroids that make them grow faster and becoming tasteless. Chemicals that are killing bees in massive quantities I might add. And don't get me started on honey, that's another mass production story.
You know a cucumber grown naturally only lasts 2-3 days, then it starts to rot. Compared to a cucumber that is mass produced that last 2-3 weeks because of all the enhancements. Same thing with tomatoes that are canned or sold "fresh" at supermarkets. Canned tomatoes are picked WAY before they are ripe and still green. They are canned while green and super heated to get them to turn red. Eat a "fresh" tomato like an apple at the supermarket and they are tasteless and full of water. I could go on about more veggies. I'm not saying the same doesn't go for meat but there are places where you can get meat that came from animals that weren't treated like mass production hormone injected zombies.
http://vimeo.com/32367993 I like what he says at 22:00 and it's true about animals and veggies. I've been growing my own tomatoes, eggplants, cucumbers, carrots, peppers, and a number of herbs for the last 4 years and no supermarket veggie can compare. If you don't like seeing meat cut then you should skip over to 22.
I would also like to add that meat in America tastes like shit compared to anywhere else in the world. I go to Armenian and France every year and the beef/pork/chicken/fish ex tastes way better because it's so much more natural.
Animals are butchered in a more "humane," way by modern facilities than by the old-world kosher/halaal setups. In-fact some countries have moved to ban the traditional methods because they are refusing to stun the animals before they're slaughtered (which is the requisite practice of any slaughterhouse in the first world that doesn't have a "my religion says not to," pass). Furthermore, all those nasty corporations mass-producing food are the sole reason the earth can sustain its ballooning population. Unless you figure getting 1/10th the yield per acre and simultaneously starving off a proportional sum of the world's population is a good deal, I fail to see what you're driving at. If the old methods had been sustainable and profitable, they wouldn't have developed new technologies to make the process more efficient (which came about because of increased demand, basic economics).
Pesticides since the hay-day of DDT (which is now illegal, and only "ORGANIC," farmers have been caught using it in recent years, fancy that) have become MUCH safer and less environmentally damaging. The genetic treatments given to certain plants have been precisely to avoid the short-falls that required those chemicals we used to use. I've yet to come across an article sharing your fear that wasn't a hopeless smear campaign or some wanton advertising for another bogus "organic," farm charging 5x the normal price for goods which were grown under conditions that might prove dangerous.
You know not all tomatoes are canned? You can get "fresh," tomatoes that are both generically produced and picked by some self-styled "organic," farmer. And i'll be the first to tell you (since I have a tomato plant or two at my cabin) that home-grown tomatoes are not in-fact better than a fresh tomato from the local grocer. My tomatoes are grown in less than ideal conditions, whereas any self-respecting tomato grower is going to aim for a better setup. Meat is an entirely different animal (lol) when it comes to production, but the result is the same. Meat produced by industrial scale factories is in-fact just as healthy for you as meat from a free-range operation. If you get a filet from both places and they ate the same feed, they will have the same nutritional value and taste, and no, the (natural) hormones given to the animals are not seeping into your system: that's another organic propaganda piece.
I'm not defending the concept of veal production as humane here, but when it comes down to arguments about human health, this stuff is a giant pile. The FDA keeps a closer eye on mainstream food quality than it does this new-age stuff.
I grow a lot of vegetables myself and you're absolutely fooling yourself. I'm a wine snob with a very sensitive pallet and I know my food just as well. If you home-grown veggies taste better than the super-market fare you either shop for low-quality goods or your farming skills are impeccable.
That would imply that those animals are being fed something different as that is the only variable that could really change the flavor of their meat significantly. I don't doubt the possibility you favor animals being fed a different grain, but to assume that a different flavor is indicative of the overall quality of national food supplies is absurd.
I'm all for bagging on the animal processing industries dark side and espousing the virtues of growing your own produce (because I think it's a rewarding past-time), but this nonsense about mainstream food being inherently dangerous is absolute nonsense and a rumor that needs to be squelched. You get exactly what you pay for in America. If you buy the ground beef that costs 99cents you better expect that it's the collected anuses and refuse of whatever they swept off the slaughterhouse floor last night. If you pay premium for a cut of steak at a reputable grocer, you're getting the same high-quality beef that you would be getting anywhere else that cows are raised for slaughter.
Strait from the FDA's website on Organic Food Guidelines:
As opposed to an organization that has no oversight besides its board of directors? I'm all for the critique of federal agencies, but the scientific reviews are out there for your perusal. Find me an academic, peer-reviewed, scholarly study that found industry standards to produce a sub-standard product (and please don't bother with the crap that compares sushi with Mc Burgers, we all know that fast food is the cheapest crap possible and that isn't in question).
I hope you do have some insightful replies to provide. I would love to have some illuminating information, regardless of whether or not it supports my thesis. It goes without saying; however, that I have not read a single reputable study that indicated to me that I have been misleading.
Not meaning to be mean or insulting, but I never saw why people are vegan or vegetarian at all. I mean we are omnivores so I kind of thought it was a bit weird (not meaning to mean or anything).
Idk... What is the mentality of it?
Also, if your vegan/vegetarian be mindful of your more starchy produce e.g. potatoes, corn, white rice, white pasta, they're high GI and will spike your insulin levels
Personally I am a meat eater, I've only recently started bodybuilding so I need to make sure my protien intake is nice and high. Living in Australia I am fortunate enough to have an abundant source of good quality, very lean, high protien, fully organic, and most importantly cheap meat, kangaroo, which I eat quite alot of. But I also eat fish(salmon or tuna)/beef/chicken usually twice a day but I would have three times the amount of veges than meat, with any meal ;). The leaner the meat the better!
My opinion on eating meat is that the more organic/lean the meat, the less health complications you'll come across.
Edit: I probably eat more vegetables than most people as well.
Know what, I just eat a lot.
This is a legitimate concern. The way food is prepared in fast-food (hell, any run of the mill restaurant really) establishments is deplorable and the competitive eating/popular food TV stuff is not helpful either. People in the US like to bitch about public insurance and healthcare, but they fail to realize the whole reason private coverage is sky high: because the population is obese and at increased risk for everything related to their awful diet.
Of course, there are two ways to remedy the situation and neither of them would pass in congress.
1) Let the fat fucks die (the libertarian method).
2) Levy a tax on the production or consumption of highly-unhealthy foods similar to those on tobacco and alcohol (the progressive method).
That just leaves us with the main-stream right-of-center status quo:
3) Get fat, go to the ER, get indigent care, force medicare costs up to astronomical highs, and then complain about UN-sustainable healthcare costs while trying to keep a strait face.
I never said anything about “old-world” kosher/halaal ways of butchering animals. There are many slaughterhouses that use modern methods of stunning the animal before killing them. They are raising animals that are free to roam and fed healthy food.
Again I never said anything about shutting mass production facilities down or anything about old world methods. Your putting words in my mouth that I didn't say.
But if I may. The way they are mass producing food in these massive factories are disgusting. It's wrong in so many ways now it's hard to talk about only one thing. They jam in all these animals into small spaces so they are stressing them which releases all kinds of hormones into the animals body. Then they inject them with who knows what to make them grow faster so they can get them out as fast as possible to make as big a profit as possible.
You know it's supposed/used to take almost a year for a chicken to hatch from an egg to get fully grown for it to be sold. Now it only takes about 2-3 months and there on your table. Have you had an egg right when the chicken produced it? It doesn't compare to an egg that you get at ANY supermarket IDC if its Whole Foods or your run of the mill supermarket. An egg fresh from a chicken has the deepest amber color yolk that is super rich in flavor. Go get an egg from any supermarket and look at the yolk, its a pale yellow color and has lost almost all its flavor. Here are two eggs cooked, one fresh one mass production. Mass produced egg can take up to 2 or 3 weeks before they even reach a supermarket and by then they have lost so much flavor. http://www.practicalhacks.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/DSC_1100a.jpg . I could go on about so many more things, especially the way that mass produced pigs are treated which is probably the absolute worst out of all the animals.
WARNING this video is gross so if you can't take looking at disgusting things you shouldn't watch it, especially the end. http://vimeo.com/11862375 . This was in Spain there is another one with a guy who infiltrated a pig farm in the US and worked there for like 2 years that was doing unspeakable things to their pigs/piglets. He got so many things on video.
I've been to a farm in Maine that has very very good meats because of the way their animals are raised. We went to see how the animals are slaughtered and they stunned every single one before they cut their necks to drain them. I gotta admit it's kind of gross seeing it for the first time but you get used to it.
I know all tomatoes aren't canned. I was talking about canned tomatoes and the fresh tomatoes you pick from the supermarket. And I didn't mean to say that all canned tomatoes aren't good or even great.
You said it yourself you have bad growing conditions. I do everything I can to grow the best veggies and herbs possible. And I can tell you that my cherry tomatoes taste WAY WAY better than anything you can get at any supermarket no matter how much you pay at Whole Foods or Stop&Shop. I have gotten cherry tomatoes from many different supermarkets for cheap and expensive and they have no taste, it's like drinking water.
I don't grow bigger tomatoes because they take up to much room and don't yield as much product. I go to the farmers market to get beautiful heirlooms.
I can say without a doubt in my mind the meat that I have eaten from local farms that have been raised properly; taste head over heels better than anything you can get mass produced. The only place I would get meat and veggies from if I had to(during winter) is from Whole Foods. They have good quality meat, but you have to get it cut fresh and wrapped in paper. Don't get meat that is packed in the styrofoam trays, you never know how long it's been sitting there for.
I would like to think my farming skills(even though I consider myself an amateur)are pretty good. I buy great soil, feed, fertilizer, ex. I do a lot of stuff to make sure everything comes out great. Is it a lot of work, I'm not going to lie, it is. But it's definitely worth it.
The back tray is all tomatoes. They got a little leggy but I got them under control when my bulbs came in.
I like yourself have a good pallet when it comes to food. I've been working in restaurants since I was 14; from dishwasher to sou chef. I built a wood fired oven in my backyard that I use for pizza, bread, roasting meats and veggies, making ribs and so much more. If I didn't work with my dad I would open my own small restaurant. I don't drink so I can't say anything about wine or alcohol.
How doesn't it if you don't mind me asking? I'm not talking about some random people that work at the Cheese Cake Factory or some other minimum wage work at a random run of the mill eatery that call themselves chefs. I'm talking about people who have been working in the industry for 20+ years and actually go to farms and have relationships with their producers. Places that deserve Michelin stars if you asked a lot of people who go to those few restaurants in Boston.
I agree with you on some things but I have grown up with food and its something that I love. When it comes down to mass production vs locally grown items, locally grown is always better. Because 1)you are supporting your community and they are supporting you. And 2) sorry but I do think it's a lot healthier. Mass production can be doing everything right if they wanted to but they want to maximize their profits so they will do everything and anything to make top dollar. These are my opinions and you obviously have the right to say anything you want but I stand by them till the day I die. Like an Apple user and their products
The bold part is required of EVERYONE (except the jewish and muslims who are exempted by the religion crap) and has nothing to do with free-range. Furthermore, the fact an animal is free range does not mean it's eating the best food or vice versa. There are less restrictions on the way free-range operations work though, so it wouldn't suprise me if they had lower quality food and got away with it.
What do you know about animal physiology? If you take nothing away from our debate here, I want you to know that this "who knows what hormones and chemicals," stuff is unfounded bullshit (and i've invited you to put some substance behind those claims already.
I welcome a peer reivewed study of egg quality, but this urban-myth stuff (politicalhacks, heh) is not furthering your argument except to keep saying "I don't think things taste as good!"
Organic farmers could also do this. What are you trying to express?
I'll remind you again -THAT IS A LEGAL REQUIREMENT AND INDUSTRY STANDARD- full stop.
It sounds like you havea gift for cherry tomato farming then. Well done. If every one of the tomatoes you've purchase elsewhere taste like "water," you haven't shopped much.
Good point about meat that's been sitting too long, but that's not got a thing to do with the animal itself or the produce either. Quality meat can be found from both traditional and non-traditional sources though. The new diffirence is that, farm-raised organic meat now commands higher prices (necessarily) and thus a vogue appeal.
I have a relationship with my accountant too. That doesn't mean I know the details of his job. Animal phsyiology and the biological and engineering aspects of industrial scale farming don't strike me as the kind of thing a Chef would be familiar with, regardless of how respected he was in his own field.
Locally grown, sure. Less travel time is always better, but that isn't the argument going on here because I can go down to my retired friend's chicken farm and buy locally, from an indusrtial producer. We aren't debating local vs. non-local, we are debating modern farming and meat production methods vs. organic free-range methods. As I mentioned previously, there isn't any hard evidence for superiority in the quality of meat and veggies that are produced without the modern technology.
You are of-course entitled to your opinion, but you are not making a good case to change anyone else's opinion. If anything, you should be looking to confirm your opinion empirically and provide us with some data.
I applaud the stand you're making here. However if everyone would switch to a vegetarian (or even vegan) diet, our healthcare system would collapse. While it's true that vegan diets can meet all nutritional requirements, it takes quite a lot of efford to meet them, and many among us have trouble getting a balanced meal WITH meat. Also most vegans have very little reserves, and are thus quite vulnerable when they get ill (or pregnant).
All this does not take away the fact that I agree with you, that our current model of bio-industrie simply lacks any kind of moral standard. I do however believe that the solution to this problem lies in the exclusion of animals in the production of meat. This may sound a bit weird, but scientists are already able to let muscle cells (meat) grow on its own. It is still not suited for normal consumerism, because while they can technically produce meat this way, it lacks the structure normally formed muscles have, and are therefore, gross.
While I cannot imagine this being a solution for a complete vegan, I do believe principle-vegetarians should have no objections to eating meat that has never been online, once the technology is advanced enough to produce actual tasty meat.
My 2 cents ^^
By reading your comments it sounds like you are arguing for the sack of arguing. I don't need scientific proof to tell me the eggs and meats I am eating are better than supermarket varieties. And plus all that scientific proof is done by all those big corporations to "prove" that the free range or organic stuff is no different. Just like the cigarettes companies with all their scientific proof that smoking doesn't cause cancer and kill people. I can taste the difference when I am eating. And about the tomatoes, I've been to a lot of places to buy tomatoes from expensive to cheaper. I'll name all of them since you seem like that kind of person.
1)Shaw's (4)
2)Stop&Shop(3)
3)Whole Foods(4)
4)Russo Farm
5)Pizzi Farm
6)Wilson Farm
7)Wagon Wheel
8)Hanaford
9)Roche Brother's(2)
10)Restaurant Depot(2)
That's 20. And that's not including all the farmers markets that I've been to that actually have good veggies.
Plausible comment on the scientific data but it still doesn't help your case; taste is a form of opinion not fact. Even if it was you can't quantify or measure superior taste; additionally if we could base fact on taste we would likely require a professional opinion of appointing people with proper taste palates?
An additional comment would be just because you think something tastes better doesn't mean it’s actually better for you; an example would be a placebo "sugar pill” you think your getting better but in the end its all in your head.
BTW I'm just commenting for the sake arguing, I lack the descriptive capabilities to make any proper claims in these forms.
Oh and something interesting with technology and food...
Poo Meat
Precisely.