Every example you gave me pertained to society... and society placing constraints on you. What about people like Hitler? Hitler was above the law... was above society and was what many consider "evil." He did ... or in one way or another encouraged everything I listed. I am not calling athiests Hitler. I am not saying Hitler was an athiest. I am purely citing him as an example of someone that was extremely unethical. If hell does not exist... if god does not exist. Then hitler recieved practically no punishment for his atrocities.
Hitler did what he did because of his belief in Jesus Christ, his Lord and Savior.
Just wanted to point that out.
Also, I think it's a wee bit sick to want to torture somebody for eternity. (Think about that, after a 14.5 billion years, the life time of the Universe, they would still be getting tortured. I cannot think of anything that would warrant that kind of punishment, let alone an eternity of torture.)
No offense to anybody, I just always felt it was kinda twisted.
Wow.. go to sleep come back and there is 1 hours worth of reading to go through...
I'm just not going to even try at this point. I get home and it goes from three pages to seven pages. I read a post and another post is made in the mean time. x.x Lol.
I would like to know why theists think that their deity beliefs are any more valid than all the other ancient creation/god mythologies, like the aztec sun gods, the monkey god (india), greek gods (zeus), australian aboriginal 'dream time' (earth was created by giant snakes and other animals).
I mean - doesn't it seem strange that every human society has emerged with stories to "fill the gaps". It must be a flaw in human psychology that we are not comfortable with just saying "I don't know".
Ask a Christian why they do not believe in Zeus, Thor, or Ra. After they answer, simply respond to them that the reason they just gave you is the reason you don't believe in their god.
Edit: Wow, got the age of the universe wrong by a factor of a thousand...
Ask a Christian why they do not believe in Zeus, Thor, or Ra. After they answer, simply respond to them that the reason they just gave you is the reason you don't believe in their god.
Interesting point... the test of most religions however is the ability to continue through time, culture shifts and takeovers. We don't see many religions springing up in recent history... the ones that do, flame brightly then fade quickly - condemned to fiction. However the major religions have stood the test of time and continue to flourish.
Do I believe in Zeus, Thor or Ra? Nope, why, because those religions have not stood the questions and test of time that other religions have - thus they must have been incorrect. If we take christianity as an example it has progressed through many societies and cultures and even though it doesn't have satisfactory scientific answers to some of people's questions it is still here and hass stood through a number of tests that religions that have been relegated to mythology haven't.
If christianity were to be disproven then I would expect it to be considered mythology... however I don't think that is likely or could happen.
Hitler wasn't Christian by the way. He masqueraded as one, much like I'd guess a lot of politicians do, it's easier that way to get into power for some reason.
Hitler had his hand in all sorts of occult stuff, he'd bow to any God or science as long as it gave him more power. He included himself in things like the Ahnenerbe and was rumored though I don't think ever proven to have been part of Thule Society and the Vril Society.
Interesting point... the test of most religions however is the ability to continue through time, culture shifts and takeovers. We don't see many religions springing up in recent history... the ones that do, flame brightly then fade quickly - condemned to fiction. However the major religions have stood the test of time and continue to flourish.
In that case, the most true religion would be the one that could most effectively wipe-out the competition. I believe that gives the title over Islam at the moment. Needless to say, how popular a myth is as a story does not say anything about how much truth is held within. Beowulf is one of the oldest texts to survive in the west. I don't think that it's survival says anything about the reality of grendel, his mother, mist-beasts, dragons, or warriors with god-like powers.
Do I believe in Zeus, Thor or Ra? Nope, why, because those religions have not stood the questions and test of time that other religions have - thus they must have been incorrect. If we take christianity as an example it has progressed through many societies and cultures and even though it doesn't have satisfactory scientific answers to some of people's questions it is still here and hass stood through a number of tests that religions that have been relegated to mythology haven't.
Had you been born in the greek countryside at the time, you very well could have believed in Zeus. Why are you dismissing this fact? Christianity has been around a few thousand years. The polytheistic religons were around for thousands of years prior to that. Which one people believed in had nothing to do with the correctness of their dogma, it had to do with which religion held the reigns of power and favor. You're ignoring the fact that hindu theology has been longer-lasting, more accepting, and more peaceful than christianity, judeism, or islam. Do you believe that makes hinduism and it's great polytheistic stories true?
I would say that they are all equally rightly branded as mythological literature. It is quite clear that the adapatability of religion explains not their truth, but of their man-made origin, and of those men's desire to remain in power by virtue of and unseeable and unknowable omnsicient entity or entities.
If christianity were to be disproven then I would expect it to be considered mythology... however I don't think that is likely or could happen.
Christianity is not disproven by mythology, it is contradicted by facts. You cannot disprove one myth with another, because they are fact-less tracts of pure fiction. Where do you set about asserting truth of one myth so the other is not also true?
An argument between a christian and a muslim would be as follows:
Christian: Christianity is correct because the bible says x.
Muslim: Islam is correct because the Qur'an says x.
How do you convince the other to recind the point when they have no objective viewpoint and champion their mythology as the only truth (for no reason and without evidence)?
The answer is simple: neither religion is backed by evidence. Both are wrong to one another. Holding such "beliefs," are helpful to nobody except those who want to demonize the other in order to consolidate power for themselves.
Hitler wasn't Christian by the way. He masqueraded as one, much like I'd guess a lot of politicians do, it's easier that way to get into power for some reason.
Hitler had his hand in all sorts of occult stuff, he'd bow to any God or science as long as it gave him more power. He included himself in things like the Ahnenerbe and was rumored though I don't think ever proven to have been part of Thule Society and the Vril Society.
This is a fair critique, and it's obvious Hitler dabbled in all manner of cults, but one cannot divorce Hitler from the church. Neither can one divorce the strident anti-semitism of europe from it's origin in the catholic church. So potent, in-fact that even protestant dissidents maintained their anti-jewish rhetoric.
Interesting point... the test of most religions however is the ability to continue through time, culture shifts and takeovers. We don't see many religions springing up in recent history... the ones that do, flame brightly then fade quickly - condemned to fiction. However the major religions have stood the test of time and continue to flourish.
Do I believe in Zeus, Thor or Ra? Nope, why, because those religions have not stood the questions and test of time that other religions have - thus they must have been incorrect. If we take christianity as an example it has progressed through many societies and cultures and even though it doesn't have satisfactory scientific answers to some of people's questions it is still here and hass stood through a number of tests that religions that have been relegated to mythology haven't.
If christianity were to be disproven then I would expect it to be considered mythology... however I don't think that is likely or could happen.
Alright then, explain why you don't believe in Krishna, Allah, or Kai/Kami, and I'll use that explanation on Elohim/Yahweh.
Hitler wasn't Christian by the way. He masqueraded as one, much like I'd guess a lot of politicians do, it's easier that way to get into power for some reason.
Christopher Hitchens owns this idea much better then I could ever.
This is a fair critique, and it's obvious Hitler dabbled in all manner of cults, but one cannot divorce Hitler from the church. Neither can one divorce the strident anti-semitism of europe from it's origin in the catholic church. So potent, in-fact that even protestant dissidents maintained their anti-jewish rhetoric.
Fair enough, I've never been Catholic.
I'm not sure what I am really. Neither science or religion has a answer yet and to me, for some reason or another it just makes more sense that a magical being that always existed created stuff than nothing creating stuff at the very beginning.
I don't disbelieve that he was spiritual. He was more spiritual than maybe anybody else I've ever seen but "God" can mean a lot of different things to different people. With the amount of things he dabbled in, I really doubt he was trying to please one specific God, rather anyone who would take him. Him claiming to be Christian and then doing what he did would be ridiculous, it's in complete contradiction to everything he did.
Interesting point... the test of most religions however is the ability to continue through time, culture shifts and takeovers. We don't see many religions springing up in recent history... the ones that do, flame brightly then fade quickly - condemned to fiction. However the major religions have stood the test of time and continue to flourish.
In that case, the most true religion would be the one that could most effectively wipe-out the competition. I believe that gives the title over Islam at the moment. Needless to say, how popular a myth is as a story does not say anything about how much truth is held within. Beowulf is one of the oldest texts to survive in the west. I don't think that it's survival says anything about the reality of grendel, his mother, mist-beasts, dragons, or warriors with god-like powers.
That would be a very simplistic view of it but yes essentially that would be the case. However the issue is more complex than just dominating or wiping out a particular religion. Most religions preach tolerance, love and compassion (there are obviously examples in all religions where there have been aberrations - crusades, jihad, etc). A relgions survival is not just the time it has been around but also whether it can be proven/disproven. We have no evidence that beowulf was based on reality thus it is considered fiction... christianity has people who have been proven to exist and relates to testable historical evidence... is this proof it is correct - no - but it does move it from pure fiction.
Do I believe in Zeus, Thor or Ra? Nope, why, because those religions have not stood the questions and test of time that other religions have - thus they must have been incorrect. If we take christianity as an example it has progressed through many societies and cultures and even though it doesn't have satisfactory scientific answers to some of people's questions it is still here and hass stood through a number of tests that religions that have been relegated to mythology haven't.
Had you been born in the greek countryside at the time, you very well could have believed in Zeus. Why are you dismissing this fact? Christianity has been around a few thousand years. The polytheistic religons were around for thousands of years prior to that. Which one people believed in had nothing to do with the correctness of their dogma, it had to do with which religion held the reigns of power and favor. You're ignoring the fact that hindu theology has been longer-lasting, more accepting, and more peaceful than christianity, judeism, or islam. Do you believe that makes hinduism and it's great polytheistic stories true?
I would say that they are all equally rightly branded as mythological literature. It is quite clear that the adapatability of religion explains not their truth, but of their man-made origin, and of those men's desire to remain in power by virtue of and unseeable and unknowable omnsicient entity or entities.
Perhaps I would - its speculation - however when we look at which of the two religions survived in any particular form we see christianity prevailed... so therefore there must have been something more to it that the ancient greeks left their religion and converted... I don't know what it was - I doubt anyone does... was it a firmer conviction that it was truth? was it that they felt there were more testable points compared to the greek religion of the time? I don't know, but this I think shows a difference between a mythology and religion... one has been given up on by society (mythology) while one still has its believers in society (religion).
If christianity were to be disproven then I would expect it to be considered mythology... however I don't think that is likely or could happen.
Christianity is not disproven by mythology, it is contradicted by facts. You cannot disprove one myth with another, because they are fact-less tracts of pure fiction. Where do you set about asserting truth of one myth so the other is not also true?
An argument between a christian and a muslim would be as follows:
Christian: Christianity is correct because the bible says x.
Muslim: Islam is correct because the Qur'an says x.
How do you convince the other to recind the point when they have no objective viewpoint and champion their mythology as the only truth (for no reason and without evidence)?
The answer is simple: neither religion is backed by evidence. Both are wrong to one another. Holding such "beliefs," are helpful to nobody except those who want to demonize the other in order to consolidate power for themselves.
I think you missed my point here... I wasn't saying that christianity is disproven by mythology - rather i was saying that IF christianity had been disproved by facts then it would become a mythology just as other old religions have been disproved and become mythology.
As it stands I am unaware of anything which proves that a christian God does not exist thus it is still a viable religion.
With regards to a conversation between a muslim and christian - then both would need to delve into both religions and they would need to work out which of the two they felt held the more truth. Religion is not a scientific thing that is easily testable and is open to a lot of different interpretations... this makes proving religion exceptionally difficult but also means that it cannot be easily disproven too.
Both the muslim and christian religions are based on events that have evidence to show that what they state happened did so in history. Does this prove it is correct... no you can't prove it but it does lend support to what it is saying... if one thing is correct in it and can be proven then it is likely that other parts of what it is saying are also likely to be true... I'm not going to convince you of this because you want physical, hard scientific fact but religion doesn't work that way... does this mean it is wrong... according to you - yes... according to me no... which of us is right? I'd like to think I am... can I prove it... no... you'd like to think you are... can you prove it... no... so where do we go from here... we look for support for our ideas... refer back to glass half full/empty argument.
Interesting point... the test of most religions however is the ability to continue through time, culture shifts and takeovers. We don't see many religions springing up in recent history... the ones that do, flame brightly then fade quickly - condemned to fiction. However the major religions have stood the test of time and continue to flourish.
In that case, the most true religion would be the one that could most effectively wipe-out the competition. I believe that gives the title over Islam at the moment. Needless to say, how popular a myth is as a story does not say anything about how much truth is held within. Beowulf is one of the oldest texts to survive in the west. I don't think that it's survival says anything about the reality of grendel, his mother, mist-beasts, dragons, or warriors with god-like powers.
Do I believe in Zeus, Thor or Ra? Nope, why, because those religions have not stood the questions and test of time that other religions have - thus they must have been incorrect. If we take christianity as an example it has progressed through many societies and cultures and even though it doesn't have satisfactory scientific answers to some of people's questions it is still here and hass stood through a number of tests that religions that have been relegated to mythology haven't.
Had you been born in the greek countryside at the time, you very well could have believed in Zeus. Why are you dismissing this fact? Christianity has been around a few thousand years. The polytheistic religons were around for thousands of years prior to that. Which one people believed in had nothing to do with the correctness of their dogma, it had to do with which religion held the reigns of power and favor. You're ignoring the fact that hindu theology has been longer-lasting, more accepting, and more peaceful than christianity, judeism, or islam. Do you believe that makes hinduism and it's great polytheistic stories true?
I would say that they are all equally rightly branded as mythological literature. It is quite clear that the adapatability of religion explains not their truth, but of their man-made origin, and of those men's desire to remain in power by virtue of and unseeable and unknowable omnsicient entity or entities.
If christianity were to be disproven then I would expect it to be considered mythology... however I don't think that is likely or could happen.
Christianity is not disproven by mythology, it is contradicted by facts. You cannot disprove one myth with another, because they are fact-less tracts of pure fiction. Where do you set about asserting truth of one myth so the other is not also true?
An argument between a christian and a muslim would be as follows:
Christian: Christianity is correct because the bible says x.
Muslim: Islam is correct because the Qur'an says x.
How do you convince the other to recind the point when they have no objective viewpoint and champion their mythology as the only truth (for no reason and without evidence)?
The answer is simple: neither religion is backed by evidence. Both are wrong to one another. Holding such "beliefs," are helpful to nobody except those who want to demonize the other in order to consolidate power for themselves.
Hitler wasn't Christian by the way. He masqueraded as one, much like I'd guess a lot of politicians do, it's easier that way to get into power for some reason.
Hitler had his hand in all sorts of occult stuff, he'd bow to any God or science as long as it gave him more power. He included himself in things like the Ahnenerbe and was rumored though I don't think ever proven to have been part of Thule Society and the Vril Society.
This is a fair critique, and it's obvious Hitler dabbled in all manner of cults, but one cannot divorce Hitler from the church. Neither can one divorce the strident anti-semitism of europe from it's origin in the catholic church. So potent, in-fact that even protestant dissidents maintained their anti-jewish rhetoric.
You make so many assumptions here all I can say is see signature below.
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-Winged
This is a fair critique, and it's obvious Hitler dabbled in all manner of cults, but one cannot divorce Hitler from the church. Neither can one divorce the strident anti-semitism of europe from it's origin in the catholic church. So potent, in-fact that even protestant dissidents maintained their anti-jewish rhetoric.
Fair enough, I've never been Catholic.
I'm not sure what I am really. Neither science or religion has a answer yet and to me, for some reason or another it just makes more sense that a magical being that always existed created stuff than nothing creating stuff at the very beginning.
I don't disbelieve that he was spiritual. He was more spiritual than maybe anybody else I've ever seen but "God" can mean a lot of different things to different people. With the amount of things he dabbled in, I really doubt he was trying to please one specific God, rather anyone who would take him. Him claiming to be Christian and then doing what he did would be ridiculous, it's in complete contradiction to everything he did.
Mein Kampf specifically says the Christian god.
As for contradicting one's religion, that's rather common in the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim religion.
Interesting point... the test of most religions however is the ability to continue through time, culture shifts and takeovers. We don't see many religions springing up in recent history... the ones that do, flame brightly then fade quickly - condemned to fiction. However the major religions have stood the test of time and continue to flourish.
Do I believe in Zeus, Thor or Ra? Nope, why, because those religions have not stood the questions and test of time that other religions have - thus they must have been incorrect. If we take christianity as an example it has progressed through many societies and cultures and even though it doesn't have satisfactory scientific answers to some of people's questions it is still here and hass stood through a number of tests that religions that have been relegated to mythology haven't.
If christianity were to be disproven then I would expect it to be considered mythology... however I don't think that is likely or could happen.
Alright then, explain why you don't believe in Krishna, Allah, or Kai/Kami, and I'll use that explanation on Elohim/Yahweh.
Fair enough argument - and that is what religion is... a personal belief in something. All I can do is explain why I believe that something is correct and then it is up to you to look at what I present and decide for yourself whether you agree with me.
This is something that a lot of people don't seem to understand (not saying here on these forums and not just refering to atheists but also christians and other religions). Science is about facts and hard quantifiable evidence that can be tested... religion is not about this but rather a personal belief in things that cannot be explained by science.
Fair enough argument - and that is what religion is... a personal belief in something. All I can do is explain why I believe that something is correct and then it is up to you to look at what I present and decide for yourself whether you agree with me.
But that is not how science works. You have too give empirical evidence for your positive assertion in your faith. If the evidence stacks up, then you are right, if it doesn't then you are wrong.
This is something that a lot of people don't seem to understand (not saying here on these forums and not just refering to atheists but also christians and other religions). Science is about facts and hard quantifiable evidence that can be tested... religion is not about this but rather a personal belief in things that cannot be explained by science.
And Religion keeps shrinking as we gain more and more empirical data and scientific knowledge, until eventually religion will just disappear.
That would be a very simplistic view of it but yes essentially that would be the case. However the issue is more complex than just dominating or wiping out a particular religion. Most religions preach tolerance, love and compassion (there are obviously examples in all religions where there have been aberrations - crusades, jihad, etc). A relgions survival is not just the time it has been around but also whether it can be proven/disproven. We have no evidence that beowulf was based on reality thus it is considered fiction... christianity has people who have been proven to exist and relates to testable historical evidence... is this proof it is correct - no - but it does move it from pure fiction.
False. The religion of the Cannanites is erased by the Isrealites in the bible. Are you going to claim that love and compassion where the vehicle upon which judeo-christianity spread, or that the non-mainstream religion of the world were not primarily diminished due to the militancy of their mainstream counterparts? Christianity has the same kind of people (human beings) as any other religion. How does any of this move the bible myths up the chain from myth to "not pure fiction." ?
Perhaps I would - its speculation - however when we look at which of the two religions survived in any particular form we see christianity prevailed... so therefore there must have been something more to it that the ancient greeks left their religion and converted... I don't know what it was - I doubt anyone does... was it a firmer conviction that it was truth? was it that they felt there were more testable points compared to the greek religion of the time? I don't know, but this I think shows a difference between a mythology and religion... one has been given up on by society (mythology) while one still has its believers in society (religion).
No, actually, the greeks lost their religion at sword-point aswell. And i'm afraid to begin to explain the horrors of the eastern roman empire under Christian rule. By the way, unless you are eastern orthodox, you aren't in any kinship with the predominant Christianity of that region.
I think you missed my point here... I wasn't saying that christianity is disproven by mythology - rather i was saying that IF christianity had been disproved by facts then it would become a mythology just as other old religions have been disproved and become mythology.
As it stands I am unaware of anything which proves that a christian God does not exist thus it is still a viable religion.
I think you missed my point. Facts, evidence. These things PROVE and DISPROVE. Myths do not. One myth proves nothing. Another myth proves nothing. Neither myth disproves the other. They are both myths. Like opinions, they may exist in conflict with one another.
With regards to a conversation between a muslim and christian - then both would need to delve into both religions and they would need to work out which of the two they felt held the more truth. Religion is not a scientific thing that is easily testable and is open to a lot of different interpretations... this makes proving religion exceptionally difficult but also means that it cannot be easily disproven too.
No, they wouldn't. Both religions hold that their dogma is the one true dogma (unless you are a liberal christian who is not keen to assert this, in which case: why have this debate?) and there is no room to debate. As I said, there is nothing to test, nothing evidencial to prove. Imagine you see two men debating. One likes cake and the other one likes pie. They debate which one is true. Who wins? Nobody, they're opinions. Baseless, evidenceless, assertions that have no basis in fact. They can only argue their own upbringing, their own experience, and nothing at all to convey an objective fact that one of the two is more true (because neither one is a statement of truth/knowledge).
Both the muslim and christian religions are based on events that have evidence to show that what they state happened did so in history.
They are based on events in the same way that Homer based his Illiad on the actual siege of Troy. Both texts were written generations after the fact. Both collaborate pre-existing prophecies of previous religious groups. They are both one-part history, one-part propaganda. The miraculous claims of neither book are evident. The god of neither book is evident to exist. They are, as I said, equally non-truth/knowledge assertions. The argument of which one is "true," means nothing.
That said, if you want to talk about which one is more socially compatable with modernity: i'll freely admit that I think christianity has fared much better than islam in that regard. That; however, should not be seen as a divine gift. It is due more to the cunning of european religious and secular leaders (espcially protestant ones), and their willingess to abandon christianity for reason, than the superiority of christian doctorine.
As for contradicting one's religion, that's rather common in the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim religion.
Yeah because no one ever lies to get ahead in life? Amirite? Also where is your logic in this now? How can you logically say he was Christian when he funded so many occult groups and searches for occult artifacts.
I think you're letting your hatred of religion blind you a little. People contradict themselves and their beliefs ALL the time, it's not religion exclusive. Just because you can think of more religious examples at the moment doesn't mean there are more religious examples.
You see it every day. "I hate women who cheat, I'd never cheat on my husband." Then she runs off to a gangbang or something. Or "I'm completely opposed to gays and gay rights." Then they're giving handies in a bathroom. Lies and contradictions are not exclusive to any race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, or even inanimate objects. Ever had a Starburst? Solid, yet juicy.
Hitler did what he did because of his belief in Jesus Christ, his Lord and Savior.
Just wanted to point that out.
Also, I think it's a wee bit sick to want to torture somebody for eternity. (Think about that, after a 14.5 billion years, the life time of the Universe, they would still be getting tortured. I cannot think of anything that would warrant that kind of punishment, let alone an eternity of torture.)
No offense to anybody, I just always felt it was kinda twisted.
I'm just not going to even try at this point. I get home and it goes from three pages to seven pages. I read a post and another post is made in the mean time. x.x Lol.
I have no dog.
Ask a Christian why they do not believe in Zeus, Thor, or Ra. After they answer, simply respond to them that the reason they just gave you is the reason you don't believe in their god.
Edit: Wow, got the age of the universe wrong by a factor of a thousand...
It's billion with a "b" not million with a "m".
Feel free to skip the reading and simply rep all my posts. >D
Interesting point... the test of most religions however is the ability to continue through time, culture shifts and takeovers. We don't see many religions springing up in recent history... the ones that do, flame brightly then fade quickly - condemned to fiction. However the major religions have stood the test of time and continue to flourish.
Do I believe in Zeus, Thor or Ra? Nope, why, because those religions have not stood the questions and test of time that other religions have - thus they must have been incorrect. If we take christianity as an example it has progressed through many societies and cultures and even though it doesn't have satisfactory scientific answers to some of people's questions it is still here and hass stood through a number of tests that religions that have been relegated to mythology haven't.
If christianity were to be disproven then I would expect it to be considered mythology... however I don't think that is likely or could happen.
Hitler had his hand in all sorts of occult stuff, he'd bow to any God or science as long as it gave him more power. He included himself in things like the Ahnenerbe and was rumored though I don't think ever proven to have been part of Thule Society and the Vril Society.
In that case, the most true religion would be the one that could most effectively wipe-out the competition. I believe that gives the title over Islam at the moment. Needless to say, how popular a myth is as a story does not say anything about how much truth is held within. Beowulf is one of the oldest texts to survive in the west. I don't think that it's survival says anything about the reality of grendel, his mother, mist-beasts, dragons, or warriors with god-like powers.
Had you been born in the greek countryside at the time, you very well could have believed in Zeus. Why are you dismissing this fact? Christianity has been around a few thousand years. The polytheistic religons were around for thousands of years prior to that. Which one people believed in had nothing to do with the correctness of their dogma, it had to do with which religion held the reigns of power and favor. You're ignoring the fact that hindu theology has been longer-lasting, more accepting, and more peaceful than christianity, judeism, or islam. Do you believe that makes hinduism and it's great polytheistic stories true?
I would say that they are all equally rightly branded as mythological literature. It is quite clear that the adapatability of religion explains not their truth, but of their man-made origin, and of those men's desire to remain in power by virtue of and unseeable and unknowable omnsicient entity or entities.
Christianity is not disproven by mythology, it is contradicted by facts. You cannot disprove one myth with another, because they are fact-less tracts of pure fiction. Where do you set about asserting truth of one myth so the other is not also true?
An argument between a christian and a muslim would be as follows:
Christian: Christianity is correct because the bible says x.
Muslim: Islam is correct because the Qur'an says x.
How do you convince the other to recind the point when they have no objective viewpoint and champion their mythology as the only truth (for no reason and without evidence)?
The answer is simple: neither religion is backed by evidence. Both are wrong to one another. Holding such "beliefs," are helpful to nobody except those who want to demonize the other in order to consolidate power for themselves.
This is a fair critique, and it's obvious Hitler dabbled in all manner of cults, but one cannot divorce Hitler from the church. Neither can one divorce the strident anti-semitism of europe from it's origin in the catholic church. So potent, in-fact that even protestant dissidents maintained their anti-jewish rhetoric.
Alright then, explain why you don't believe in Krishna, Allah, or Kai/Kami, and I'll use that explanation on Elohim/Yahweh.
Christopher Hitchens owns this idea much better then I could ever.
"God on our side."
Gott Mit Uns!
Fair enough, I've never been Catholic.
I'm not sure what I am really. Neither science or religion has a answer yet and to me, for some reason or another it just makes more sense that a magical being that always existed created stuff than nothing creating stuff at the very beginning.
I don't disbelieve that he was spiritual. He was more spiritual than maybe anybody else I've ever seen but "God" can mean a lot of different things to different people. With the amount of things he dabbled in, I really doubt he was trying to please one specific God, rather anyone who would take him. Him claiming to be Christian and then doing what he did would be ridiculous, it's in complete contradiction to everything he did.
That would be a very simplistic view of it but yes essentially that would be the case. However the issue is more complex than just dominating or wiping out a particular religion. Most religions preach tolerance, love and compassion (there are obviously examples in all religions where there have been aberrations - crusades, jihad, etc). A relgions survival is not just the time it has been around but also whether it can be proven/disproven. We have no evidence that beowulf was based on reality thus it is considered fiction... christianity has people who have been proven to exist and relates to testable historical evidence... is this proof it is correct - no - but it does move it from pure fiction.
Perhaps I would - its speculation - however when we look at which of the two religions survived in any particular form we see christianity prevailed... so therefore there must have been something more to it that the ancient greeks left their religion and converted... I don't know what it was - I doubt anyone does... was it a firmer conviction that it was truth? was it that they felt there were more testable points compared to the greek religion of the time? I don't know, but this I think shows a difference between a mythology and religion... one has been given up on by society (mythology) while one still has its believers in society (religion).
I think you missed my point here... I wasn't saying that christianity is disproven by mythology - rather i was saying that IF christianity had been disproved by facts then it would become a mythology just as other old religions have been disproved and become mythology.
As it stands I am unaware of anything which proves that a christian God does not exist thus it is still a viable religion.
With regards to a conversation between a muslim and christian - then both would need to delve into both religions and they would need to work out which of the two they felt held the more truth. Religion is not a scientific thing that is easily testable and is open to a lot of different interpretations... this makes proving religion exceptionally difficult but also means that it cannot be easily disproven too.
Both the muslim and christian religions are based on events that have evidence to show that what they state happened did so in history. Does this prove it is correct... no you can't prove it but it does lend support to what it is saying... if one thing is correct in it and can be proven then it is likely that other parts of what it is saying are also likely to be true... I'm not going to convince you of this because you want physical, hard scientific fact but religion doesn't work that way... does this mean it is wrong... according to you - yes... according to me no... which of us is right? I'd like to think I am... can I prove it... no... you'd like to think you are... can you prove it... no... so where do we go from here... we look for support for our ideas... refer back to glass half full/empty argument.
You make so many assumptions here all I can say is see signature below.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Mein Kampf specifically says the Christian god.
As for contradicting one's religion, that's rather common in the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim religion.
Fair enough argument - and that is what religion is... a personal belief in something. All I can do is explain why I believe that something is correct and then it is up to you to look at what I present and decide for yourself whether you agree with me.
This is something that a lot of people don't seem to understand (not saying here on these forums and not just refering to atheists but also christians and other religions). Science is about facts and hard quantifiable evidence that can be tested... religion is not about this but rather a personal belief in things that cannot be explained by science.
Name one of them for us to discuss?
But that is not how science works. You have too give empirical evidence for your positive assertion in your faith. If the evidence stacks up, then you are right, if it doesn't then you are wrong.
And Religion keeps shrinking as we gain more and more empirical data and scientific knowledge, until eventually religion will just disappear.
False. The religion of the Cannanites is erased by the Isrealites in the bible. Are you going to claim that love and compassion where the vehicle upon which judeo-christianity spread, or that the non-mainstream religion of the world were not primarily diminished due to the militancy of their mainstream counterparts? Christianity has the same kind of people (human beings) as any other religion. How does any of this move the bible myths up the chain from myth to "not pure fiction." ?
No, actually, the greeks lost their religion at sword-point aswell. And i'm afraid to begin to explain the horrors of the eastern roman empire under Christian rule. By the way, unless you are eastern orthodox, you aren't in any kinship with the predominant Christianity of that region.
I think you missed my point. Facts, evidence. These things PROVE and DISPROVE. Myths do not. One myth proves nothing. Another myth proves nothing. Neither myth disproves the other. They are both myths. Like opinions, they may exist in conflict with one another.
No, they wouldn't. Both religions hold that their dogma is the one true dogma (unless you are a liberal christian who is not keen to assert this, in which case: why have this debate?) and there is no room to debate. As I said, there is nothing to test, nothing evidencial to prove. Imagine you see two men debating. One likes cake and the other one likes pie. They debate which one is true. Who wins? Nobody, they're opinions. Baseless, evidenceless, assertions that have no basis in fact. They can only argue their own upbringing, their own experience, and nothing at all to convey an objective fact that one of the two is more true (because neither one is a statement of truth/knowledge).
They are based on events in the same way that Homer based his Illiad on the actual siege of Troy. Both texts were written generations after the fact. Both collaborate pre-existing prophecies of previous religious groups. They are both one-part history, one-part propaganda. The miraculous claims of neither book are evident. The god of neither book is evident to exist. They are, as I said, equally non-truth/knowledge assertions. The argument of which one is "true," means nothing.
That said, if you want to talk about which one is more socially compatable with modernity: i'll freely admit that I think christianity has fared much better than islam in that regard. That; however, should not be seen as a divine gift. It is due more to the cunning of european religious and secular leaders (espcially protestant ones), and their willingess to abandon christianity for reason, than the superiority of christian doctorine.
Yeah because no one ever lies to get ahead in life? Amirite? Also where is your logic in this now? How can you logically say he was Christian when he funded so many occult groups and searches for occult artifacts.
I think you're letting your hatred of religion blind you a little. People contradict themselves and their beliefs ALL the time, it's not religion exclusive. Just because you can think of more religious examples at the moment doesn't mean there are more religious examples.
You see it every day. "I hate women who cheat, I'd never cheat on my husband." Then she runs off to a gangbang or something. Or "I'm completely opposed to gays and gay rights." Then they're giving handies in a bathroom. Lies and contradictions are not exclusive to any race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, or even inanimate objects. Ever had a Starburst? Solid, yet juicy.
+1 trolling for Siaynoq
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