Greetings and salutations once again Ladies, Gentlemen, and fellow Diablo Fans.
I'm back with a new Diablo Digest video podcast this time focusing on Paragon 2.0 and all the details of the system since it seems to be a hot topic. For those who have been following the news it's nothing new, but I have seen a lot of questions regarding it and wanted to get as much information into one place as I could. This includes the information regarding how Ladders will work with Paragon 2.0.
Worry not for there's more and plenty of discussion and some hot topics to cover, so let's begin with a synopsis for those who cannot watch at present.
With Paragon 2.0 we've been given some information by Travis Day how Ladders would work with the new system. This little bit of news seems to have been glossed over by many as if it was only natural, but this is the first time it's been mentioned with specifics. This leads to something that concerns me about Ladders, is Blizzard going to do it right?
Ladders are a great way to get people to start over again and replay, but Ladders usually have some kind of system in place that entice people to play it. What made Diablo 2's ladder work so well wasn't just the race to the top it was the Ladder-specific items that you could find along the way. Things you couldn't find if your character wasn't part of the active season. A good example of this is what Path of Exile has been doing, they've been making challenge ladders that add new gameplay elements and surprises. It could be about anything, but there really needs to be something unique to that ladder to get a majority of people to want to play it or it's just a character reset just for the sake of resetting.. which I guess works for some people since there are player who like the "Prestige" thing in other games. I'm hoping Blizzard keeps these things in mind when they crate Ladders again.
Paragon 2.0 is going to introduce allocateable skill points into the game again. Of course this is only for high level characters, but I half wonder if there's even a point to it. The next topic is about Attribute Points and Skill Trees. A lot of people like to claim they disliked the removal of both of these elements and it looks like Blizzard is at least willing to acquiesce to Attribute points for Paragon. I'm not really sure this is needed, really the benefit of these points isn't going to amount to much by end game when you unlock it. The secondary stats are pretty minimal (crit, crit damage, etc) unless you have maximum paragon points into them (Paragon level 800). However, I don't think they could have made these points be more than they are because then it would be too strong, especially for hardcore characters who thrive on the razor's edge of life and death. Skill points have been done well before, I like to use Torchlight 2 as an example just because they put a few different gameplay mechanics on some of the stats, they also made it so gear unlocks by level not just by what stats you had, which was a failing in my eyes for Diablo 2.
The video goes into my thoughts on skill trees and points a bit further. For the sake of discussion here I'll just say that I don't believe the argument that having skills unlocked by level rather than by a skill tree offers much of a difference in gameplay choice. I've seen it argued that if you start a new character then its always the same skill progression, but if you had a skill tree, wouldn't it still be the same progression? You can't unlock high tier abilities until you go through the low tier. I submit to you that the Skill Tree of Diablo 2 just provided the illusion of choice when leveling. The final product might be different, but that doesn't change the leveling (or ladder) experience as you go.
Lastly I talk about game difficulty, but I'm out of time to type for now. I'll edit and post a response with this subject when I get to work because I love you guys. <3 Edit below
Lastly, there's discussion about difficulty. Specifically I wanted to get into the statements made by Wyatt Cheng and how the rapidly bobbing health bar is a bad thing. I'm in full agreement with Wyatt's statements, the idea of being Near Death or losing health and having to be careful doesn't really seem to exist when you get to the end game. While leveling it seems to okay (unless you turn on MP) you have moments when you can run around with 50% or so health and feel like you'll be okay as long as you're careful. The higer the "difficulty" gets the higher your chances of just dying outright. I'd love to see health matter. If health matters we can start to see mechanics where you can stay a low life and get some kind of benefit until you heal up. I think there's even a legendary affix blizz is working on where you will crit when you're low HP. This kind of thing won't work with the way the current life generation and instant death mechanics work. Good play should be rewarded, but making mistakes shouldn't be such a Razor's edge that makes you die at the slightest error. I, for one, am looking forward to seeing what changes they have in store for monster damage values now that we've seen soem datamined HP regen values go down.
Whew that's a lot.. it was an hour long podcast.. hopefully it doesn't scare everyone off. Thoughts? Feedback? Tickets to see the Blue Man Group? (aww you shouldn't have)... oh just have at it, you know I love to lurk and read comments
Click the button for Timestamps and Major Topics covered
Yo. I'm still listening to it, but came here to say that you're right about that Travis Day ladder 'announcement'. I guess it just got lost within the myriad of information that's coming our way via datamining.
Yeah, strange isn't it? I saw it on Diablofans' main page as I was researching RoS and was surprised it just showed up as a blue post overview.
Now on to the discussion piece!
Also, I disagree with you when you say that there really isn't any difference between the D2 and D3 levelling experiences when it comes to the order in which you got your skills. Sure, you couldn't pick Frozen Orb at level 1, but you could pick Fire Bold OR you could pick Charged Bolt OR you could pick Ice Bolt (or Frozen Armor or Warmth). So you have a point that it wasn't a free-for-all of skill choices, but at level 2 you had your pick from 5 different skills. I believe that's MUCH better than what you get in D3: Ray of Frost or......Ray of Frost.
Certainly you could choose the order that you unlocked skills as you went, but if you had a build in mind you typically would pick the same skills if you were to rebuild. You'd ignore the stuff you didn't want so most D2 players would either save their points or only buff the skills that would buff the final ability they were going for. It wouldn't be uncommon at level 4 to not spend a point so you could put 2 separate points into abilities at level 5. So instead of a choice you're doing nothing and waiting.
On top of that, there would be a few levels in between that the only thing to do was to pump a skill point into a skill to make it hit harder. No additional affects no special procs, just slightly more damage. I think I would rather take D3's method of giving me 5 skills for 3 slots (with all those skills being useful) and having to decide how to build even if they are the same skills than having to sit on points or put them into the same skills I already have.
Now to be fair, this argument is a bit different than what I originally stated above and had in the video, but these were some of the problems I had with the tree. Sure there are skills you probably won't use in D3 as you level so they feel useless but nearly every one of those skills has some use or reason.
To further play devil's advocate to my own argument, I really did like the way Torchlight 2 did things compared to D2. you had 3 skills to choose from at level 1 compared to Diablo 2's approximate 5 (based on class, sure) and each skill could be bumped to do a little more damage, but if you put in 5 points (or a tier) then you might unlock a proc or additional effect. I don't think TL2's added effects were near as varied or cool as D3's but it was something that you could look forward to by investing into the skill. They also made sure you didn't have to do that since skills also were based on weapon damage so you weren't gimping yourself (too much) by buying all the skills if you so desired.
I think it shows that a skill tree with the right modifications could be good, but I also think D3's method is just as good. We're basically trading builds from point expenditure to limited slots. It's one of the reasons I like talking about this subject: There's no one obvious way to do it right. I think that's also my way of saying thanks for always having interesting counterpoints, Sir.
Ladders are a great way to get people to start over again and replay, but Ladders usually have some kind of system in place that entice people to play it. What made Diablo 2's ladder work so well wasn't just the race to the top it was the Ladder-specific items that you could find along the way. Things you couldn't find if your character wasn't part of the active season. A good example of this is what Path of Exile has been doing, they've been making challenge ladders that add new gameplay elements and surprises. It could be about anything, but there really needs to be something unique to that ladder to get a majority of people to want to play it or it's just a character reset just for the sake of resetting.. which I guess works for some people since there are player who like the "Prestige" thing in other games. I'm hoping Blizzard keeps these things in mind when they crate Ladders again.
I've seen others on this site make the following counter-argument, and I happen to agree with it: why do we need an incentive to play ladder? Shouldn't the ladder itself be the incentive? In D2 the ladder was kind of pointless since everyone who took it seriously hit level 99 in the first week and then it was pretty much locked in for the next several months. But with Paragon being unlimited, the race will continue the entire season. The drive to beating everyone else and staying at the top should be enough of a reason to keep playing ladder for those who are interested in it.
If Blizzard does feel the need to add some incentive, then I really hope they don't use D2's method of having the 'best' gear be ladder exclusive. This kind of thing goes beyond encouragement and makes people feel like playing the ladder is required, even if they aren't interested in the race. Sure, you COULD play non-ladder and be just fine, but knowing that you'll never get the best gear in the game is a bit of a downer and being forced to start from scratch just to have that opportunity is really frustrating.
The exception to the above would be if the ladder-only items actually starting dropping in non-ladder after the season is over. Then they add a new wave of exclusive items to the next season, while people who play non-ladder now have some new items to hunt for. Essentially, the best gear is available to everyone, but non-ladder players have to wait longer for it than ladder plays, which I think would be acceptable.
An alternative would be ladder-exclusive content that is purely cosmetic or 'just for fun'. It would add a bit of prestige for the people who play ladder, but wouldn't make people feel like they have to start over every season just to keep up with the gear.
Paragon 2.0 is going to introduce allocateable skill points into the game again. Of course this is only for high level characters, but I half wonder if there's even a point to it. The next topic is about Attribute Points and Skill Trees. A lot of people like to claim they disliked the removal of both of these elements and it looks like Blizzard is at least willing to acquiesce to Attribute points for Paragon. I'm not really sure this is needed, really the benefit of these points isn't going to amount to much by end game when you unlock it. The secondary stats are pretty minimal (crit, crit damage, etc) unless you have maximum paragon points into them (Paragon level 800). However, I don't think they could have made these points be more than they are because then it would be too strong, especially for hardcore characters who thrive on the razor's edge of life and death. Skill points have been done well before, I like to use Torchlight 2 as an example just because they put a few different gameplay mechanics on some of the stats, they also made it so gear unlocks by level not just by what stats you had, which was a failing in my eyes for Diablo 2.
The problem that I see with the current paragon system in that regard is that letting you choose exactly which attribute you want to upgrade each level is kind of pointless since there are really only 2 choices: your primary stat or vitality. And even then, pretty much everyone is going to pick their primary stat since that provides dps as well as a small boost to defense. The other categories have more interesting choices depending on what kind of build you want to do or whether you favor utility over efficiency.
I think a better system would be to keep the current pattern for boosting attributes each level (3-2-1-1 for Primary-Vitality-Secondary-Secondary) and ALSO give you a point to put in one of the other categories of your choice.
I've seen others on this site make the following counter-argument, and I happen to agree with it: why do we need an incentive to play ladder? Shouldn't the ladder itself be the incentive? In D2 the ladder was kind of pointless since everyone who took it seriously hit level 99 in the first week and then it was pretty much locked in for the next several months. But with Paragon being unlimited, the race will continue the entire season. The drive to beating everyone else and staying at the top should be enough of a reason to keep playing ladder for those who are interested in it.
Certainly this is fine if that's what people want, I just don't think a majority of D3 players are going to care about the race. It'll probably just be between the most hardcore of players. Not that there's really a problem with that, it's just not something I would care about if that's all it is. If I want to make a new character for fun I'd do it regardless of a ladder being in place.
If Blizzard does feel the need to add some incentive, then I really hope they don't use D2's method of having the 'best' gear be ladder exclusive. This kind of thing goes beyond encouragement and makes people feel like playing the ladder is required, even if they aren't interested in the race. Sure, you COULD play non-ladder and be just fine, but knowing that you'll never get the best gear in the game is a bit of a downer and being forced to start from scratch just to have that opportunity is really frustrating.
Agreed, This is the opposite end of the spectrum and a cause for concern. So we basically have two extremes here. On one side a ladder with no incentive to play it outside of a personal goal.. on the other side a ladder with incentives that make it feel mandetory. They'd have to find something in the middle to get people to want to play but not feel cheated if they still played their characters off the ladder.
The exception to the above would be if the ladder-only items actually starting dropping in non-ladder after the season is over. Then they add a new wave of exclusive items to the next season, while people who play non-ladder now have some new items to hunt for. Essentially, the best gear is available to everyone, but non-ladder players have to wait longer for it than ladder plays, which I think would be acceptable.
An alternative would be ladder-exclusive content that is purely cosmetic or 'just for fun'. It would add a bit of prestige for the people who play ladder, but wouldn't make people feel like they have to start over every season just to keep up with the gear.
That's not a bad idea. It gives them cause to keep creating new items and keep adding them to ladders. Once the season ends everyone gets a chance. The only issue that might cuase is of course the new items would have to be interesting and it might not be easy to keep making new items. If the seasons were long enough they would probably have enough of a lag time to do it, though.
The cosmetic or 'non-essential' reward idea is also a good place to go with it. I could see that working.
The problem that I see with the current paragon system in that regard is that letting you choose exactly which attribute you want to upgrade each level is kind of pointless since there are really only 2 choices: your primary stat or vitality. And even then, pretty much everyone is going to pick their primary stat since that provides dps as well as a small boost to defense. The other categories have more interesting choices depending on what kind of build you want to do or whether you favor utility over efficiency.
I think a better system would be to keep the current pattern for boosting attributes each level (3-2-1-1 for Primary-Vitality-Secondary-Secondary) and ALSO give you a point to put in one of the other categories of your choice.
Yes the other stats are more intersting and thankfully they take a long time to cap so they're not overpowering. I think the reason they are tying it into base stats is because they want to make the paragon level unlimited. A +1 to a primary stat (or even a +5) after a long grind won't terribly offset things and it still keeps the skill choices interesting. I just don't think keeping things like crit or movement speed without a cap working well, it would just end up with the same problem we have now, people will maximize that stat and it kills the balance of skills again.
Honestly, if there's any incentive beyond transmog gear and achievements. I'll be both surprised and upset.
I think that + the race/fresh start is plenty incentive. Anything else would make me feel more obligated than the above already does. Even though I'll likely resent the fact that I have to ladder to obtain some rewards to satisfy my ocd. I still realize the above is not going to impact gameplay and that's the only reason it's fair to all parties.
Btw, I just want to say I would definitely play the ladder at least one season. Regardless of rewards and incentives. But if there was any reward whatsoever, I will be a little bitter about it.
I would agree with Miles. Stat allocation is next to pointless after you have reached the cap in all categories except base stat. Everyone will play for optimallaity and put all of their points in their main stat and vitality. Not much incentive to ever increase intel and str if you are a DH.
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Blizzard used to care about releasing Diablo III, then they all took an arrow in the knee...
Yes the other stats are more intersting and thankfully they take a long time to cap so they're not overpowering. I think the reason they are tying it into base stats is because they want to make the paragon level unlimited. A +1 to a primary stat (or even a +5) after a long grind won't terribly offset things and it still keeps the skill choices interesting. I just don't think keeping things like crit or movement speed without a cap working well, it would just end up with the same problem we have now, people will maximize that stat and it kills the balance of skills again.
Just to make sure I'm being clear, in my model, the core attributes could continue going up even after the other stats are all maxed (currently this is what happens at P800 anyway). That way Paragon can be infinite, but past a certain point, you only get the standard core attribute bonus each level, and nothing more.
Honestly, if there's any incentive beyond transmog gear and achievements. I'll be both surprised and upset.
I think that + the race/fresh start is plenty incentive. Anything else would make me feel more obligated than the above already does. Even though I'll likely resent the fact that I have to ladder to obtain some rewards to satisfy my ocd. I still realize the above is not going to impact gameplay and that's the only reason it's fair to all parties.
Btw, I just want to say I would definitely play the ladder at least one season. Regardless of rewards and incentives. But if there was any reward whatsoever, I will be a little bitter about it.
I think you and I are in the same boat. Depending on what/if the rewards are, I'll probably make at least 1 ladder character regardless, but I still plan to keep my focus on my current characters. Well, and a crusader.
If Blizz really wants us in ladder and makes it mandatory-ish, then...I'll do it, but I'll be really miffed.
I really don't like the idea of "guided" stat point allocation. The original explanation from Blizzard on why they did not include the ability to allocate skill points in D3 was that it was essentially a boring, cookie cutter system that didn't add anything to the game. I don't see how bringing the concept back with even MORE controls on it is the solution. All systems should be open and unblocked in my opinion. I really don't care if that would allow people to have 100% crit chance builds, 1000% crit damage builds, or whatever else. If you give people a ton of options all of which are strong in their own way ( defensive, offensive, adventure, etc) with legendaries that are build changing, you will get variety. Maybe the 1000% crit damage build will be the technical highest dps build for a Barbarian lets say. Who cares? The only reason everyone stacks the same stats with the same build right now is because there is only one way to play the game. There are only a few core stats you need on gear, all chars of the same class want the exact same gear, and if you want to be able to demolish huge elite packs, you need to stack "x" stat as high as you can get it. If you had real specialization within classes made viable with legendaries that take a normally garbage stat, skill, or rune and make it badass, no one will care to optimize there build simply for max dps. There will be tons of builds that are viable and many unique, situational builds that will be top tier in specific circumstances. This is what I want to see.
We don't need to reign in builds that are considered "op", we don't need to balance stat allocation or cap damage stats. These are just band-aids on various problems that only exist because of the current itemization issues.
I don't like the approach D3 took to many systems in the game. I don't like hand holding or directed character progression. Just give me lots of awesome options and I'll make something cool out of it.
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I'm back with a new Diablo Digest video podcast this time focusing on Paragon 2.0 and all the details of the system since it seems to be a hot topic. For those who have been following the news it's nothing new, but I have seen a lot of questions regarding it and wanted to get as much information into one place as I could. This includes the information regarding how Ladders will work with Paragon 2.0.
Worry not for there's more and plenty of discussion and some hot topics to cover, so let's begin with a synopsis for those who cannot watch at present.
With Paragon 2.0 we've been given some information by Travis Day how Ladders would work with the new system. This little bit of news seems to have been glossed over by many as if it was only natural, but this is the first time it's been mentioned with specifics. This leads to something that concerns me about Ladders, is Blizzard going to do it right?
Ladders are a great way to get people to start over again and replay, but Ladders usually have some kind of system in place that entice people to play it. What made Diablo 2's ladder work so well wasn't just the race to the top it was the Ladder-specific items that you could find along the way. Things you couldn't find if your character wasn't part of the active season. A good example of this is what Path of Exile has been doing, they've been making challenge ladders that add new gameplay elements and surprises. It could be about anything, but there really needs to be something unique to that ladder to get a majority of people to want to play it or it's just a character reset just for the sake of resetting.. which I guess works for some people since there are player who like the "Prestige" thing in other games. I'm hoping Blizzard keeps these things in mind when they crate Ladders again.
Paragon 2.0 is going to introduce allocateable skill points into the game again. Of course this is only for high level characters, but I half wonder if there's even a point to it. The next topic is about Attribute Points and Skill Trees. A lot of people like to claim they disliked the removal of both of these elements and it looks like Blizzard is at least willing to acquiesce to Attribute points for Paragon. I'm not really sure this is needed, really the benefit of these points isn't going to amount to much by end game when you unlock it. The secondary stats are pretty minimal (crit, crit damage, etc) unless you have maximum paragon points into them (Paragon level 800). However, I don't think they could have made these points be more than they are because then it would be too strong, especially for hardcore characters who thrive on the razor's edge of life and death. Skill points have been done well before, I like to use Torchlight 2 as an example just because they put a few different gameplay mechanics on some of the stats, they also made it so gear unlocks by level not just by what stats you had, which was a failing in my eyes for Diablo 2.
The video goes into my thoughts on skill trees and points a bit further. For the sake of discussion here I'll just say that I don't believe the argument that having skills unlocked by level rather than by a skill tree offers much of a difference in gameplay choice. I've seen it argued that if you start a new character then its always the same skill progression, but if you had a skill tree, wouldn't it still be the same progression? You can't unlock high tier abilities until you go through the low tier. I submit to you that the Skill Tree of Diablo 2 just provided the illusion of choice when leveling. The final product might be different, but that doesn't change the leveling (or ladder) experience as you go.
Lastly I talk about game difficulty, but I'm out of time to type for now. I'll edit and post a response with this subject when I get to work because I love you guys. <3Edit belowLastly, there's discussion about difficulty. Specifically I wanted to get into the statements made by Wyatt Cheng and how the rapidly bobbing health bar is a bad thing. I'm in full agreement with Wyatt's statements, the idea of being Near Death or losing health and having to be careful doesn't really seem to exist when you get to the end game. While leveling it seems to okay (unless you turn on MP) you have moments when you can run around with 50% or so health and feel like you'll be okay as long as you're careful. The higer the "difficulty" gets the higher your chances of just dying outright. I'd love to see health matter. If health matters we can start to see mechanics where you can stay a low life and get some kind of benefit until you heal up. I think there's even a legendary affix blizz is working on where you will crit when you're low HP. This kind of thing won't work with the way the current life generation and instant death mechanics work. Good play should be rewarded, but making mistakes shouldn't be such a Razor's edge that makes you die at the slightest error. I, for one, am looking forward to seeing what changes they have in store for monster damage values now that we've seen soem datamined HP regen values go down.
Whew that's a lot.. it was an hour long podcast.. hopefully it doesn't scare everyone off. Thoughts? Feedback? Tickets to see the Blue Man Group? (aww you shouldn't have)... oh just have at it, you know I love to lurk and read comments
Click the button for Timestamps and Major Topics covered
Interview with Wyatt and Travis:
http://diablo.somepa...-and-travis-day
For Diablo 3 and Reaper of Souls news:
http://www.diablofans.com
Topics that are included in this broadcast:
Yeah, strange isn't it? I saw it on Diablofans' main page as I was researching RoS and was surprised it just showed up as a blue post overview.
Now on to the discussion piece!
Certainly you could choose the order that you unlocked skills as you went, but if you had a build in mind you typically would pick the same skills if you were to rebuild. You'd ignore the stuff you didn't want so most D2 players would either save their points or only buff the skills that would buff the final ability they were going for. It wouldn't be uncommon at level 4 to not spend a point so you could put 2 separate points into abilities at level 5. So instead of a choice you're doing nothing and waiting.
On top of that, there would be a few levels in between that the only thing to do was to pump a skill point into a skill to make it hit harder. No additional affects no special procs, just slightly more damage. I think I would rather take D3's method of giving me 5 skills for 3 slots (with all those skills being useful) and having to decide how to build even if they are the same skills than having to sit on points or put them into the same skills I already have.
Now to be fair, this argument is a bit different than what I originally stated above and had in the video, but these were some of the problems I had with the tree. Sure there are skills you probably won't use in D3 as you level so they feel useless but nearly every one of those skills has some use or reason.
To further play devil's advocate to my own argument, I really did like the way Torchlight 2 did things compared to D2. you had 3 skills to choose from at level 1 compared to Diablo 2's approximate 5 (based on class, sure) and each skill could be bumped to do a little more damage, but if you put in 5 points (or a tier) then you might unlock a proc or additional effect. I don't think TL2's added effects were near as varied or cool as D3's but it was something that you could look forward to by investing into the skill. They also made sure you didn't have to do that since skills also were based on weapon damage so you weren't gimping yourself (too much) by buying all the skills if you so desired.
I think it shows that a skill tree with the right modifications could be good, but I also think D3's method is just as good. We're basically trading builds from point expenditure to limited slots. It's one of the reasons I like talking about this subject: There's no one obvious way to do it right. I think that's also my way of saying thanks for always having interesting counterpoints, Sir.
I've seen others on this site make the following counter-argument, and I happen to agree with it: why do we need an incentive to play ladder? Shouldn't the ladder itself be the incentive? In D2 the ladder was kind of pointless since everyone who took it seriously hit level 99 in the first week and then it was pretty much locked in for the next several months. But with Paragon being unlimited, the race will continue the entire season. The drive to beating everyone else and staying at the top should be enough of a reason to keep playing ladder for those who are interested in it.
If Blizzard does feel the need to add some incentive, then I really hope they don't use D2's method of having the 'best' gear be ladder exclusive. This kind of thing goes beyond encouragement and makes people feel like playing the ladder is required, even if they aren't interested in the race. Sure, you COULD play non-ladder and be just fine, but knowing that you'll never get the best gear in the game is a bit of a downer and being forced to start from scratch just to have that opportunity is really frustrating.
The exception to the above would be if the ladder-only items actually starting dropping in non-ladder after the season is over. Then they add a new wave of exclusive items to the next season, while people who play non-ladder now have some new items to hunt for. Essentially, the best gear is available to everyone, but non-ladder players have to wait longer for it than ladder plays, which I think would be acceptable.
An alternative would be ladder-exclusive content that is purely cosmetic or 'just for fun'. It would add a bit of prestige for the people who play ladder, but wouldn't make people feel like they have to start over every season just to keep up with the gear.
The problem that I see with the current paragon system in that regard is that letting you choose exactly which attribute you want to upgrade each level is kind of pointless since there are really only 2 choices: your primary stat or vitality. And even then, pretty much everyone is going to pick their primary stat since that provides dps as well as a small boost to defense. The other categories have more interesting choices depending on what kind of build you want to do or whether you favor utility over efficiency.
I think a better system would be to keep the current pattern for boosting attributes each level (3-2-1-1 for Primary-Vitality-Secondary-Secondary) and ALSO give you a point to put in one of the other categories of your choice.
Certainly this is fine if that's what people want, I just don't think a majority of D3 players are going to care about the race. It'll probably just be between the most hardcore of players. Not that there's really a problem with that, it's just not something I would care about if that's all it is. If I want to make a new character for fun I'd do it regardless of a ladder being in place.
Agreed, This is the opposite end of the spectrum and a cause for concern. So we basically have two extremes here. On one side a ladder with no incentive to play it outside of a personal goal.. on the other side a ladder with incentives that make it feel mandetory. They'd have to find something in the middle to get people to want to play but not feel cheated if they still played their characters off the ladder.
That's not a bad idea. It gives them cause to keep creating new items and keep adding them to ladders. Once the season ends everyone gets a chance. The only issue that might cuase is of course the new items would have to be interesting and it might not be easy to keep making new items. If the seasons were long enough they would probably have enough of a lag time to do it, though.
The cosmetic or 'non-essential' reward idea is also a good place to go with it. I could see that working.
Yes the other stats are more intersting and thankfully they take a long time to cap so they're not overpowering. I think the reason they are tying it into base stats is because they want to make the paragon level unlimited. A +1 to a primary stat (or even a +5) after a long grind won't terribly offset things and it still keeps the skill choices interesting. I just don't think keeping things like crit or movement speed without a cap working well, it would just end up with the same problem we have now, people will maximize that stat and it kills the balance of skills again.
I think that + the race/fresh start is plenty incentive. Anything else would make me feel more obligated than the above already does. Even though I'll likely resent the fact that I have to ladder to obtain some rewards to satisfy my ocd. I still realize the above is not going to impact gameplay and that's the only reason it's fair to all parties.
Btw, I just want to say I would definitely play the ladder at least one season. Regardless of rewards and incentives. But if there was any reward whatsoever, I will be a little bitter about it.
Just to make sure I'm being clear, in my model, the core attributes could continue going up even after the other stats are all maxed (currently this is what happens at P800 anyway). That way Paragon can be infinite, but past a certain point, you only get the standard core attribute bonus each level, and nothing more.
I think you and I are in the same boat. Depending on what/if the rewards are, I'll probably make at least 1 ladder character regardless, but I still plan to keep my focus on my current characters. Well, and a crusader.
If Blizz really wants us in ladder and makes it mandatory-ish, then...I'll do it, but I'll be really miffed.
We don't need to reign in builds that are considered "op", we don't need to balance stat allocation or cap damage stats. These are just band-aids on various problems that only exist because of the current itemization issues.
I don't like the approach D3 took to many systems in the game. I don't like hand holding or directed character progression. Just give me lots of awesome options and I'll make something cool out of it.