Guys, understand that it doesn't matter how you name stuff. Everything you currently have or will acquire before the ladder comes will be left as it is in the non-ladder/perpetual paragon ladder/i-dont-care-what-its-name-is area.
Apart from that there will be a true ladder, where at Day Zero everybody who wish to participate start with 1 char on level 1 on Normal difficulty with nothing on, no gold and no Paragon bonuses. After the ladder is over (after a minimum of few months, up to a year), everything you have accumulated on your Ladder chars gets rolled into the non-ladder area and you start again from nothing in the next season.
Got it?
Source? Because last I checked, we still have no idea how ladder is going to work?
Guys, understand that it doesn't matter how you name stuff. Everything you currently have or will acquire before the ladder comes will be left as it is in the non-ladder/perpetual paragon ladder/i-dont-care-what-its-name-is area.
Apart from that there will be a true ladder, where at Day Zero everybody who wish to participate start with 1 char on level 1 on Normal difficulty with nothing on, no gold and no Paragon bonuses. After the ladder is over (after a minimum of few months, up to a year), everything you have accumulated on your Ladder chars gets rolled into the non-ladder area and you start again from nothing in the next season.
Got it?
Agreed. It doesn't matter what it's called. But someone above implied that "non-ladder" was pointless and no one was going to care about it, which I don't think will be true at all! Not everyone wants to start over every season, lots of people just will want to keep grinding paragons with the characters they have already established. That non-seasonal ladder will probably have its own ladder since paragon is infinite, which basically has a potential for two different types of ladders.
The only real downside would be botting, but hopefully bots won't be able to do the hardest content that actually gives competitive reward experience.
they won't need to grind the hardest content for competitive experience. They'll be grinding 24 hours a day 7 days a week until infinity because there is no limit on paragon levels. Humans will never be able to compete with that.
This is true, but its also true that bots become more useless the more rewarding skill based difficulty becomes. Imagine if no bots could do MP10 and you could get the same experience in MP10 in 6 hours than a bot could get on MP3 in a day. Or what if loot runs or neph trials give way more experience than just flat out grinding ten-fold, and they somewhat made those runs not bottable. Maybe put in a human like test somewhere in the middle of it to open a gate. "place the purple gem onto the green pedastal" type test. Or it's just so skill intensive that a bot can't do it. Life steal will be nerfed so it will be harder to just midlessly stay alive too.
Nothing I'm stating is ironclad but just some ramblings I suppose.
If u gonna stay non-ladder i think its worth getting some gold, as i bet with loot 2.0 crafting will be worth doing again, and u can burn through gold very quickly when crafting.
Source? Because last I checked, we still have no idea how ladder is going to work?
Source? Common sense. Bilzzard called the new thing in 2.0 a "ladder" and ladders work in the way I described above. If they worked differently they wouldn't be called ladders.
Also the way I described it is the only reasonable way in which such a thing would work. The whole purpose of ladders/seasons in any game is to give the players the ability to compete anew on equal footing. If you put this idea to Diablo III then there is no way how all the things that you have now and will get/do before ladder goes online will be able to influence ladder. How would the competition be equal if you started the new ladder with a MP10 capable PL100 character, while other players have a character that is PL40 and is capable of MP4 max?
And about the rolling of Paragon EXP from ladder to non-ladder after a season ends - there was a blue post about it, I believe.
Agreed. It doesn't matter what it's called. But someone above implied that "non-ladder" was pointless and no one was going to care about it, which I don't think will be true at all! Not everyone wants to start over every season, lots of people just will want to keep grinding paragons with the characters they have already established. That non-seasonal ladder will probably have its own ladder since paragon is infinite, which basically has a potential for two different types of ladders.
Ladder-ception.
That someone above was me. The reason why I say that non-ladder will be pointless is because this:
The expansion will bring back players that have stopped playing (at least I hope it will!). People who haven't played in multiple months. That influx of fresh/come-back players will make the current community of multiple 100PL character die-hards a small fraction of the whole community. And those players will start on ladder, where they won't be annoyed that they go into a public game with their freshly leveled character and see a PL100 300k+ dps Barbarian stealing all the fun ahead.
It will probably be true that right at the release of the first seasonal ladder a large flock of people will do it, especially returning players. But after that first ladder reset, the amount of people who join each progressive ladder is going to go down as the novelty wears off. Yes, many will enjoy the ladder resets, and to each their own. But I suspect many of those players finishing the first ladder will probably continue to play their characters after being moved out of the seasonal ladder.
I highly doubt it will be irrelevant. I myself have really no interest in seasonal ladders honestly. I will participate at first, but there is no way I am going to start new characters every seasonal ladder. For me it gets old starting from scratch constantly. I like to develop long term, and I can't possibly be the only one. My guess is the average player will do both regularly perhaps.
One thing to also consider is that having 10 x paragon 100 might not be that much of an advantage if we end up gaining experience at a much higher rate off level 70 monsters.
It will probably be true that right at the release of the first seasonal ladder a large flock of people will do it, especially returning players. But after that first ladder reset, the amount of people who join each progressive ladder is going to go down as the novelty wears off. Yes, many will enjoy the ladder resets, and to each their own. But I suspect many of those players finishing the first ladder will probably continue to play their characters after being moved out of the seasonal ladder.
I highly doubt it will be irrelevant. I myself have really no interest in seasonal ladders honestly. I will participate at first, but there is no way I am going to start new characters every seasonal ladder. For me it gets old starting from scratch constantly. I like to develop long term, and I can't possibly be the only one. My guess is the average player will do both regularly perhaps.
One thing to also consider is that having 10 x paragon 100 might not be that much of an advantage if we end up gaining experience at a much higher rate off level 70 monsters.
Long term? And what is a long term for you? In Diablo 2 the ladders lasted for multiple months. It was plenty of time to develop a character to very high performance and still get bored with it.
I know the time frame is long enough for some people, but that doesn't mean I want to start from scratch every three months. I played and upgraded my wizard for practically a year without even making a new character, and my demon hunter now for six months and I would still be upgrading them now, despite a ladder, if I didn't already know their current gear was going to be made obsolete by level 70 items. Everyone is different, and I like cultivating my base characters over the course of a year, or even longer. I definitely am not drawn to the idea of starting a new character when I already have a max level version of each done once. It's just not for me. If there were skilltrees like Diablo 2 with concrete choices being made, then I might enjoy creating multiple wizards, but as things stand now, it's just not interesting for me. Once my seasonal ladder wizard reached max level, she'd be the same as my non-ladder wizard, except with crappier gear. I just wouldn't feel good about it.
It will probably be true that right at the release of the first seasonal ladder a large flock of people will do it, especially returning players. But after that first ladder reset, the amount of people who join each progressive ladder is going to go down as the novelty wears off. Yes, many will enjoy the ladder resets, and to each their own. But I suspect many of those players finishing the first ladder will probably continue to play their characters after being moved out of the seasonal ladder.
I highly doubt it will be irrelevant. I myself have really no interest in seasonal ladders honestly. I will participate at first, but there is no way I am going to start new characters every seasonal ladder. For me it gets old starting from scratch constantly. I like to develop long term, and I can't possibly be the only one. My guess is the average player will do both regularly perhaps.
One thing to also consider is that having 10 x paragon 100 might not be that much of an advantage if we end up gaining experience at a much higher rate off level 70 monsters.
Long term? And what is a long term for you? In Diablo 2 the ladders lasted for multiple months. It was plenty of time to develop a character to very high performance and still get bored with it.
I don't know his playstyle but if it's anything like mine, even 1 year isn't enough to min/max a character without throwing $ at the game. Which would be 3rd party stuff come expac. If you're just talking about getting good enough gear that takes almost no time at all.
Look to Path of Exile to get an idea of how it will play out. If you're too lazy to look, the majority of people play both set duration leagues ( 1 week - 4 month)and the permanent league. Diablo 2 is quite different because I said the there is a reason to NOT play non-ladder.(the hacked items,classic items, .08 items, dupes etc)
In both d3 and poe they only deal with inflation and if you play hardcore in either game there's even less of a need to play in any seasonal ladder/league, other than the novelty of starting over again. Which doesn't last long for most people.
Hell, look to d2 if you want even more proof, how many of your friends started up on the ladder and played more than a few weeks-couple months? In RoS you're going to have a reason to go back to your "non-ladder" account with all those extra paragon points/items, even mid season. You didn't have that reason in d2 because almost nobody played non-ladder since the economy was ruined.
Another goal I am definitely going to have is hitting paragon 800+ and creating new character every ladder season is going to hinder that greatly. I'd rather just keep farming with my powerful non-ladder characters for efficient paragon experience. It's just a completely different focus that I'm sure many people aren't going to abandon just to play every single new ladder season. Everyone has different goals they want to achieve, and competing on a seasonal ladder is just not one of mine.
I'd say there's a fairly large minority of people (myself and several others) who aren't really all that interested in starting over every year - I have a wife and kids and while starting over "fresh" with the new expansion is something I expect most people will do (including me) I won't be starting fresh every time they reset the seasonal ladder.
I'm 100% confident there will be a non-seasonal ranking based on total paragon xp that will span the entirety of D3 - would be just as nice to see my account climb a few places on that ranking as the seasonal ladder.
If you factor in things like endless dungeons and trials (whatever they called it I cant remember) - if there is ANY kind of ranking system for these "events" then people will be interested in playing non-ladder as well because ultimately the characters with the highest of everything (DPS, HP, whatever) are going to be non-ladder characters with hundreds and hundreds of paragon levels AND gear accumulated over years.
if you remove huge gold sinks, gold will lose its value and stop being accepted currency - you need a solid outlet for something that is constantly generated and gems alone, probably even in exp, wont be enough
I didn't say they should "remove huge gold sinks." What I said was that Marquise Gems are a very ineffective gold sink. Either you're too poor for them or you're so rich that the cost doesn't matter to you. Sure they take some gold out of the economy, but they're not an effective gold sink. 1.0.7 crafting costs were a FAR more effective gold sink. Why? Because even if you only had 10 million gold you still felt like you might get lucky and achieve something. Gems absolutely don't work that way.
The cost for Marquise Gems is completely out-of-line for self-found gameplay. They were clearly introduced for AH barons and that's EXACTLY why their cost will be re-balanced around Loot 2.0 and the removal of the AHs. 99%+ of self-found players could never afford a Marquise Gem. And since Blizzard clearly is making changes to facilitate that gameplay why is it so illogical to think they'd re-think the net cost of Marquise Gems?
as to the part about 'marquises not living up to the task', they kinda slowed the inflation for 2+ months and made 2 of 4 gem types worth more than 500g - thats kinda successful imho
Except they didn't. The very rich had full Marquise Gems the very day they were released and it didn't make a dent in their gold pile. The 5 million unsocketing fee is laughable and the crafting fee is one-time so it's not a very reliable gold sink.
Just ask anyone who had wads and wads of gold. The cost of Marquise Gems was completely immaterial to them. It was insignificant. And that's why Marquise Gems missed the mark - they were not a GOOD goldsink for the rich. They were a very weak goldsink, at best. When you're dealing in items that cost billions of gold, 5 million gold per gem to resocket is like spitting in the ocean. Sure, you technically raised the level of the ocean, but it was by an almost-undetectable amount.
Everyone has different goals they want to achieve, and competing on a seasonal ladder is just not one of mine.
Quoted and /agreed, just so that you're not standing alone on this one.
My desire to "start over" every X months is exceptionally low. I never had that urge in D2, I don't have it in D3.
Agreed as well. It'd take some pretty awesome exclusive content to get me to play ladder. If I had unlimited time to play I'd be more likely to do it, but at my 5-10 hours per week of playtime (on a good week), by the time I got to 60 and got mediocre gear, it'd be time to restart again.
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...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
Hard to say! We know for sure that gems and such will still be usefull and it might be a pain to trade for them without gold. (Who picks every gems?) On the other hand they might introduce a trading system for mats (i.e. Trade 2 gems for 1book)
Everyone has different goals they want to achieve, and competing on a seasonal ladder is just not one of mine.
Quoted and /agreed, just so that you're not standing alone on this one.
My desire to "start over" every X months is exceptionally low. I never had that urge in D2, I don't have it in D3.
Agreed as well. It'd take some pretty awesome exclusive content to get me to play ladder. If I had unlimited time to play I'd be more likely to do it, but at my 5-10 hours per week of playtime (on a good week), by the time I got to 60 and got mediocre gear, it'd be time to restart again.
I dont have much interests in ladder either. I hope there isn't any exclusive ladder only gear/content as that'll force me to play it.
Do you think that people will still care about non-ladder play?
I will. I had no interest in ladder in D2, and I have no interest in it in D3. Given that I have time to play, at most, two or three times a week, I have zero interest in re-rolling just because some arbitrary "season" came to an end.
For all the people out there that are excited for ladder, there are many more casual and semi-casual players who don't give one flying fuck about it.
NO..plain and simple. If you coming back when RoS comes out then why bother with gold at any point. With Loot 2.0 gear is going to crazy easy to get...at least we hope. Sure there will be a lot of OP gear for crazy amounts of gold, but is it truely going to be needed. I have champs at Plvl 100 without ubergear. Sure the gear would be sexy but it the long run what is the point.
Source? Because last I checked, we still have no idea how ladder is going to work?
Agreed. It doesn't matter what it's called. But someone above implied that "non-ladder" was pointless and no one was going to care about it, which I don't think will be true at all! Not everyone wants to start over every season, lots of people just will want to keep grinding paragons with the characters they have already established. That non-seasonal ladder will probably have its own ladder since paragon is infinite, which basically has a potential for two different types of ladders.
Ladder-ception.
Top 10 Solo Wizard Leaderboard - North America
Highest: Rank 6 // Greater Rift 42 12m40s
This is true, but its also true that bots become more useless the more rewarding skill based difficulty becomes. Imagine if no bots could do MP10 and you could get the same experience in MP10 in 6 hours than a bot could get on MP3 in a day. Or what if loot runs or neph trials give way more experience than just flat out grinding ten-fold, and they somewhat made those runs not bottable. Maybe put in a human like test somewhere in the middle of it to open a gate. "place the purple gem onto the green pedastal" type test. Or it's just so skill intensive that a bot can't do it. Life steal will be nerfed so it will be harder to just midlessly stay alive too.
Nothing I'm stating is ironclad but just some ramblings I suppose.
Top 10 Solo Wizard Leaderboard - North America
Highest: Rank 6 // Greater Rift 42 12m40s
If ur gonna start with ladder, then dont bother
It will probably be true that right at the release of the first seasonal ladder a large flock of people will do it, especially returning players. But after that first ladder reset, the amount of people who join each progressive ladder is going to go down as the novelty wears off. Yes, many will enjoy the ladder resets, and to each their own. But I suspect many of those players finishing the first ladder will probably continue to play their characters after being moved out of the seasonal ladder.
I highly doubt it will be irrelevant. I myself have really no interest in seasonal ladders honestly. I will participate at first, but there is no way I am going to start new characters every seasonal ladder. For me it gets old starting from scratch constantly. I like to develop long term, and I can't possibly be the only one. My guess is the average player will do both regularly perhaps.
One thing to also consider is that having 10 x paragon 100 might not be that much of an advantage if we end up gaining experience at a much higher rate off level 70 monsters.
Top 10 Solo Wizard Leaderboard - North America
Highest: Rank 6 // Greater Rift 42 12m40s
Yes, there still will be quite a few people that will play non-ladder (or whatever they end up calling it). I will be one, I know that.
I know the time frame is long enough for some people, but that doesn't mean I want to start from scratch every three months. I played and upgraded my wizard for practically a year without even making a new character, and my demon hunter now for six months and I would still be upgrading them now, despite a ladder, if I didn't already know their current gear was going to be made obsolete by level 70 items. Everyone is different, and I like cultivating my base characters over the course of a year, or even longer. I definitely am not drawn to the idea of starting a new character when I already have a max level version of each done once. It's just not for me. If there were skilltrees like Diablo 2 with concrete choices being made, then I might enjoy creating multiple wizards, but as things stand now, it's just not interesting for me. Once my seasonal ladder wizard reached max level, she'd be the same as my non-ladder wizard, except with crappier gear. I just wouldn't feel good about it.
Top 10 Solo Wizard Leaderboard - North America
Highest: Rank 6 // Greater Rift 42 12m40s
I don't know his playstyle but if it's anything like mine, even 1 year isn't enough to min/max a character without throwing $ at the game. Which would be 3rd party stuff come expac. If you're just talking about getting good enough gear that takes almost no time at all.
Look to Path of Exile to get an idea of how it will play out. If you're too lazy to look, the majority of people play both set duration leagues ( 1 week - 4 month)and the permanent league. Diablo 2 is quite different because I said the there is a reason to NOT play non-ladder.(the hacked items,classic items, .08 items, dupes etc)
In both d3 and poe they only deal with inflation and if you play hardcore in either game there's even less of a need to play in any seasonal ladder/league, other than the novelty of starting over again. Which doesn't last long for most people.
Hell, look to d2 if you want even more proof, how many of your friends started up on the ladder and played more than a few weeks-couple months? In RoS you're going to have a reason to go back to your "non-ladder" account with all those extra paragon points/items, even mid season. You didn't have that reason in d2 because almost nobody played non-ladder since the economy was ruined.
Top 10 Solo Wizard Leaderboard - North America
Highest: Rank 6 // Greater Rift 42 12m40s
I'm 100% confident there will be a non-seasonal ranking based on total paragon xp that will span the entirety of D3 - would be just as nice to see my account climb a few places on that ranking as the seasonal ladder.
If you factor in things like endless dungeons and trials (whatever they called it I cant remember) - if there is ANY kind of ranking system for these "events" then people will be interested in playing non-ladder as well because ultimately the characters with the highest of everything (DPS, HP, whatever) are going to be non-ladder characters with hundreds and hundreds of paragon levels AND gear accumulated over years.
Quoted and /agreed, just so that you're not standing alone on this one.
My desire to "start over" every X months is exceptionally low. I never had that urge in D2, I don't have it in D3.
I didn't say they should "remove huge gold sinks." What I said was that Marquise Gems are a very ineffective gold sink. Either you're too poor for them or you're so rich that the cost doesn't matter to you. Sure they take some gold out of the economy, but they're not an effective gold sink. 1.0.7 crafting costs were a FAR more effective gold sink. Why? Because even if you only had 10 million gold you still felt like you might get lucky and achieve something. Gems absolutely don't work that way.
The cost for Marquise Gems is completely out-of-line for self-found gameplay. They were clearly introduced for AH barons and that's EXACTLY why their cost will be re-balanced around Loot 2.0 and the removal of the AHs. 99%+ of self-found players could never afford a Marquise Gem. And since Blizzard clearly is making changes to facilitate that gameplay why is it so illogical to think they'd re-think the net cost of Marquise Gems?
Except they didn't. The very rich had full Marquise Gems the very day they were released and it didn't make a dent in their gold pile. The 5 million unsocketing fee is laughable and the crafting fee is one-time so it's not a very reliable gold sink.
Just ask anyone who had wads and wads of gold. The cost of Marquise Gems was completely immaterial to them. It was insignificant. And that's why Marquise Gems missed the mark - they were not a GOOD goldsink for the rich. They were a very weak goldsink, at best. When you're dealing in items that cost billions of gold, 5 million gold per gem to resocket is like spitting in the ocean. Sure, you technically raised the level of the ocean, but it was by an almost-undetectable amount.
Agreed as well. It'd take some pretty awesome exclusive content to get me to play ladder. If I had unlimited time to play I'd be more likely to do it, but at my 5-10 hours per week of playtime (on a good week), by the time I got to 60 and got mediocre gear, it'd be time to restart again.
I dont have much interests in ladder either. I hope there isn't any exclusive ladder only gear/content as that'll force me to play it.
I will. I had no interest in ladder in D2, and I have no interest in it in D3. Given that I have time to play, at most, two or three times a week, I have zero interest in re-rolling just because some arbitrary "season" came to an end.
For all the people out there that are excited for ladder, there are many more casual and semi-casual players who don't give one flying fuck about it.
Amen.
Yeah rigth, they dumb down the entire game and make it rain legendaries, but somehow they also implement more difficulty and some real challenge ?
I doubt it. Would be a nice surprise, but I sincerely doubt it.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
so whats the point of ladder if its all carried over?
There would be no point. He doesn't understand the concept of a seasonal ladder. People have tried explaining multiple times.