So basically if you want a higher % chance at legendaries you need to farm act 4 because that when you'll have the most amount of NV stacks. More incentive to farm act 4 which is fun, but I feel even more pigeon holed into my "freedom of choice" with this option.
Agreed, that shouldn't happen.
One alternative/solution could be to make the quests and exploration progress "free-roaming". So you could do everything in whatever order you wanted to. Still only one time however, until next reset.
Such as start with act 2 and clear a few areas there, jump to act 4 and clear up to Diablo, and then back to act 2 and clear some other areas. Free-roaming only available after you achieved that quest progress on your character before of course, as in no jumping to act 4 before killing Azmodan once on inferno etc.
Also, NV stack shouldn't be so high that you would only reach it near the end of a full playthrough.
In MrMonstrosity's example you could reach it "reasonably quickly" on higher MP.
I also feel like legendaries need to be more rare, so you'd have the "special" ones that are really good but rarely seen, even on other players or the AH.
I think one of the big issues is that the legendaries, even "bad" legendaries are just too good (and drop too often) for the content available. So you end up with every player wearing some random crappy roll legendaries since said crappy roll legendary comes with better base stats than 99% of rares.
When I was playing in group games, nearly every player I saw was wearing like 80%+ legendaries. That pretty much makes the legendaries not so "legendary". To me I'd rather have it more like at launch where players were mostly wearing rares, and when you actually see someone wearing a legendary it was usually something actually good, special, and rare. I'm sure many people don't agree with this though, afterall games like WoW basically have every player wearing full epics compared to the early days in WoW where we wore instance blues and seeing a player with 1-2 epics was actually "epic".
Couldn't agree more. What I mean is like:
1. common legendary items (similar drop rates to current legendary items)
2. rare legendary items (items that were close to the release drop rates)
3. super rare legendary items (items that a player might find once a month if lucky)
4. mythic legendary items (many people might not ever see these)
The item rarity doesn't need to be connected to their power, but they should provide something unique. Obviously some items will be more powerful for a specific build, but all legendary should provide something unique to them.
I still remember getting my hands on the first Visk'ag sword from vanilla Onyxia. I was the only person on my server to have it for the longest time, it was pretty rare. I think like a 5% drop rate or something.
As for NV, I actually think it should be on a time-based system rather than the reset on new game system. So we'd have NV with really high limits (like 500 or something) where you'd gain stacks on elite kills and lose stacks over time (maybe like -1 stack per 5 minutes) and also lose a certain of stacks on log-out. That way players can play however they want, such as extended runs OR just farming certain zone. However, they'd also be able to take breaks like even hours and just lose a bunch of stacks rather than fully resetting to 0. This would also help to fix the issue where many zones are simply lacking in numbers of elites.
One alternative/solution could be to make the quests and exploration progress "free-roaming". So you could do everything in whatever order you wanted to. Still only one time however, until next reset.
Such as start with act 2 and clear a few areas there, jump to act 4 and clear up to Diablo, and then back to act 2 and clear some other areas. Free-roaming only available after you achieved that quest progress on your character before of course, as in no jumping to act 4 before killing Azmodan once on inferno etc.
Also, NV stack shouldn't be so high that you would only reach it near the end of a full playthrough.
In MrMonstrosity's example you could reach it "reasonably quickly" on higher MP.
Yes traveling back and forth through acts like in Diablo 2 would be nice and would fully address this.
MrMonstrosity's examples seem high in a few instances but these can be changed and addressed based on what data Blizzard has. I normally don't pay attention to what people offer as a number example since it's a "best guess" with little information. I agree that 500 is too high, but overall the example gives you an idea of what he is looking for.
In order to have a choice you have to make things different. If everything is the same, there is no choice. I'm not commenting about that act 4 thing but game design in general and of course one choice shouldn't be better than every thing else. But again, making everything the same doesn't give us a single choice (this is why people are looking for xp/hour, demonic essence/hour, etc, it's because everything else is the same).
Isn't having everything the same better though? Since most people are drawn to efficiency they tend to ignore everything else and do the same boring runs. Your "punishment" for choosing something different for the sake of sanity is less potential gear. I rather have everything "relatively" the same so I can change up the scenery.
I do know that FM is the most efficient route at this time but parts of act 2 & 3 aren't much worse and it's nice not doing the same run ALL the time. How would having nearly the same efficiency in multiple places in the game be a negative factor? I'm pretty sure most players were happy for the monster density patch and got away from doing act 3 runs for months.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
I don't want this game to be like WOW where you have arenas and different gear for PvP and PvE... Diablo is a PvE based game and I'm ok with that...
WoW is not the standard that Diablo 3 should be living up too. Diablo 2 is. IMO WoW is horribale.
That being said PVP was huge in D2. It help fuel trading, character build and acted as a major end game for many people. Wether it was free for all pvp, private duels and pkrs.
The fact that D3 pvp is worse then D2 pvp in ever way possible is not what the fans want.
I really, really, REALLY wish people would be more vocal about fixing PVP and quest based games and game sizes. not having PVP or any form that is worth while is what is driving people insane to nit pick about every other terrible aspect in this game.
People have been very vocal about this, for a long time. Most people just gave up after brawling was added.. D3 devs are just oblivious and can't do anything right, or is it done purposely?. I think they honestly think that brawling is 'good enough' and Diablo is just about items...lol
I am a little puzzled why so much was left out. I mean there are even screen shots of this advertised a year ago. So it wasn't just on paper. I'm specifically speaking about the banner improvements i.e. skulls at the base, streamers for higher AP, Ornaments for Arena play.
But also Arena Deathmatch was early advertised, why never put it in? It may just be my paranoia but I have a growing suspicion that the true D3 game was carved up into 2 maybe 3 segments to be slowly fed to us in the form of an expansion.
Now I wouldn't say this is a developer issue and probably has alot to do with the Executives and Marketing department at Blizzard. If the developers had it their way I'm sure they wouldn't have done that to us ... Right?
I don't want this game to be like WOW where you have arenas and different gear for PvP and PvE... Diablo is a PvE based game and I'm ok with that...
WoW is not the standard that Diablo 3 should be living up too. Diablo 2 is. IMO WoW is horribale.
That being said PVP was huge in D2. It help fuel trading, character build and acted as a major end game for many people. Wether it was free for all pvp, private duels and pkrs.
The fact that D3 pvp is worse then D2 pvp in ever way possible is not what the fans want.
I really, really, REALLY wish people would be more vocal about fixing PVP and quest based games and game sizes. not having PVP or any form that is worth while is what is driving people insane to nit pick about every other terrible aspect in this game.
People have been very vocal about this, for a long time. Most people just gave up after brawling was added.. D3 devs are just oblivious and can't do anything right. I think they honestly think that brawling is 'good enough' and Diablo is just about items...lol
I enjoy the post, I can tell a decent amount of time and creativity was required to make it.
I don't know if it is a particularly good idea, but I personally always thought it would be cool if your equipment gained levels or power right along you.
Example 1:
Blade of the Hunger
-special effect: A portion of demonic power is absorbed with each slaughtered group of elites. This demonic power also begins to dissipate each time the blade's owner goes cold.
Example 2:
Stubborn Armor of the Juggernaut
-special effect: Each attack endured further hardens the armor's metal. Attacks that inflict overkill have the adverse effect.
Example 3:
Alchemist's Addiction
-special effect: The time between potions begins to shorten as each passing drink becomes a blur. Too long of breaks in between potions slows this gain.
So essentially pieces of equipment would require you to do different things to earn experience towards their own levels. Potentially the player could apply the bonus power to the piece of equipment in a manner of their choosing (ias/dmg/crit).Maybe level 1-10, and best yet you could add motivation to stay away from the AH. If you buy from AH it gets reset to level 1.
amazing work. but after a point its turn to buffing to barbarian all u guys realy miss to whirlwinding around with the frost weapon. but i think blizz never allow to upgrade legendary items coz its gonna kill AH. when people starts to upgrade their legendary items, they will increase their budget instead of buying new one. so noone gonna buy gold from RMAH. and i belive blizz is the bigger gold seller in RMAH
Absolutely fantastic. Please tell me you've posted these ideas on the Diablo 3 official forums. I hope you have so that Blizzard can see your work and say WOW these are great ideas.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Not even Death will save you from Diablo Bunny's Cuteness!
Absolutely fantastic. Please tell me you've posted these ideas on the Diablo 3 official forums. I hope you have so that Blizzard can see your work and say WOW these are great ideas.
Everyone keeps talking about itemization, which it is a very big deal. However, the other half, imo, is randomly generated zones.
Part of the replayability in Diablo and Diablo 2 was the randomly generated floors - after playing many many many many many times, a person could see certain patterns, however, it added one element Diablo 3 lacks; Diversity. It would be great if they added such element in the next major patch.
I love the creativity, but I have to ask. Why does everyone, including Blizzard, always say the incentive to play the game is the LOOT? Yes, it is an integral component of the game and needs to be rewarding and fulfilling, but a similarly important portion of the game (and games we used to play) comes from character progression and individuality.
Allow me to explain, breifly, what I'm talking about. For example, Diablo 3 was developed to have a new revolutionary take on ARPG's, the character leveled up, his or her stats are allocated for you, and the skills require no permanent investment. Let's assume this model has no flaws for just a moment. What happens when you play the game with all five characters, and max their levels out? One person might say they have the freedom to change their build at any moment. Is this really the case?
More often than not, the reason you can play a build is because of the way the items are designed. With such a large emphasis on items or "loot," the character or "toon" you create is arbitrary. In a classic ARPG setup, you are committed to investing time into a character, knowing that you have to have confidence in fulfilling the build you created. Yes, accidents happen, skills may get misplaced, or you may develop new interests as you play the game. But that is exactly what helps keep the endgame alive, just like the items, the characters need to cycle out as well.
By having a system where the items are so heavily incentivized it really creates an environment where the only thing you're left reinvesting, isn't your time, its your money. The vast majority of the "top" players according to sites like Diabloprogress.com aren't just lucky fanatics, they're people with fat wallets. If you were to estimate some of the values of these peoples character's gear, you would be astounded. Clearly, on an enthusiast site, I dont need to express the fact that it completely worth it for some people to invest this money in this manner. However, I feel that as it stands right now, more people are pigeonholed into spending money to try and stay afloat because the way that the itemization sits right now (largely because of how important gear is) there are so many drops that unless you have near perfect gear (the elite 1% roll) what you're currently wearing will be obselete and devalued in almost no time flat. It is a repetive gear-replacing game.
Don't get me wrong, theres nothign wrong with being satisfied with a character and getting it to max level. But thats just one way to play the game, and to limit the scope of interest by only allowing players to play that way, is damaging the game. There needs to be incentives in place to keep the characters or toons relevant, or create incentives to make new characters or toons. What I'm NOT saying is that the skill system is broken. Rather, items need to be adjusted, stats need to be adjusted, or some new method of incentive needs to be added for the toon's themselves to have some sort of INTRINSIC value.
OP has made some fantastic suggestions. If I were to keep it simple, I'd suggest that some of the most important stats are static on the items, and that like the OP suggested, drop rates are changed. Although there is some variance because of the drop-rates of ilvl 61-63 (them not all being equal drop rates) there is some variation on what legendaries you find. They need a little more structure, in my opinion. Furthermore, like I suggested before, The characters themselves need some sort of inherent value. Once you max all characters, you have almost no reason to go and play the game. PvP as it stands, atleast in my opinion, is atrocious. It literally is a free-brawl, with no structure. That's not fun to me, because its very one dimensional.
I'm a strong advocate of ladders, and a legitimate PvP system and I stand behind that. They offer value to characters, and force you to recycle characters. I feel that there needs to be some level of player investment for any actual attachment to occur. The fact that in Diablo 2, if you actually reached level 99, your character was as good as it could be as far as your displaceable stats are concerned. You diligently invested every point and skill and in the end you are rewarded with that little extra. Your drop rates are inherently better, similar but not exactly like the paragon MF incentive. Your skills will inherently do more. And you've had to stick to a choice and execute it to the end. And in all reality, in the end of Diablo 2's production, you really get 3 chances to re-select all those points. That's extremely generous in my opinion.
At the risk of being 'that guy,' all I really saw in the original post was 'let's use game theory to exponentially increase the desire to farm for many, many more hours.'
The suggestions only serve to string along even more countless micro-rewards for spamming LMB-1-2-3-4-5-6.
Of course I don't have an answer for the problem, I just don't think 'INCREASE ALL THE THINGS!' is it.
I have created this account solely to comment on this post.
An awesome ideas and in my book, OP should be hired by Blizzard right off the bat. What an OP suggested here is pretty much what is missing from the game for me and I bet that it's the same with majority of other players.
Hopefully Blizz will get this ideas seriously and will try to get them in the game at some point.
+1 for OP for putting this up and making it crystal clear for the readers.
I love the creativity, but I have to ask. Why does everyone, including Blizzard, always say the incentive to play the game is the LOOT? Yes, it is an integral component of the game and needs to be rewarding and fulfilling, but a similarly important portion of the game (and games we used to play) comes from character progression and individuality.
Allow me to explain, breifly, what I'm talking about. For example, Diablo 3 was developed to have a new revolutionary take on ARPG's, the character leveled up, his or her stats are allocated for you, and the skills require no permanent investment. Let's assume this model has no flaws for just a moment. What happens when you play the game with all five characters, and max their levels out? One person might say they have the freedom to change their build at any moment. Is this really the case?
More often than not, the reason you can play a build is because of the way the items are designed. With such a large emphasis on items or "loot," the character or "toon" you create is arbitrary. In a classic ARPG setup, you are committed to investing time into a character, knowing that you have to have confidence in fulfilling the build you created. Yes, accidents happen, skills may get misplaced, or you may develop new interests as you play the game. But that is exactly what helps keep the endgame alive, just like the items, the characters need to cycle out as well.
By having a system where the items are so heavily incentivized it really creates an environment where the only thing you're left reinvesting, isn't your time, its your money. The vast majority of the "top" players according to sites like Diabloprogress.com aren't just lucky fanatics, they're people with fat wallets. If you were to estimate some of the values of these peoples character's gear, you would be astounded. Clearly, on an enthusiast site, I dont need to express the fact that it completely worth it for some people to invest this money in this manner. However, I feel that as it stands right now, more people are pigeonholed into spending money to try and stay afloat because the way that the itemization sits right now (largely because of how important gear is) there are so many drops that unless you have near perfect gear (the elite 1% roll) what you're currently wearing will be obselete and devalued in almost no time flat. It is a repetive gear-replacing game.
Don't get me wrong, theres nothign wrong with being satisfied with a character and getting it to max level. But thats just one way to play the game, and to limit the scope of interest by only allowing players to play that way, is damaging the game. There needs to be incentives in place to keep the characters or toons relevant, or create incentives to make new characters or toons. What I'm NOT saying is that the skill system is broken. Rather, items need to be adjusted, stats need to be adjusted, or some new method of incentive needs to be added for the toon's themselves to have some sort of INTRINSIC value.
OP has made some fantastic suggestions. If I were to keep it simple, I'd suggest that some of the most important stats are static on the items, and that like the OP suggested, drop rates are changed. Although there is some variance because of the drop-rates of ilvl 61-63 (them not all being equal drop rates) there is some variation on what legendaries you find. They need a little more structure, in my opinion. Furthermore, like I suggested before, The characters themselves need some sort of inherent value. Once you max all characters, you have almost no reason to go and play the game. PvP as it stands, atleast in my opinion, is atrocious. It literally is a free-brawl, with no structure. That's not fun to me, because its very one dimensional.
I'm a strong advocate of ladders, and a legitimate PvP system and I stand behind that. They offer value to characters, and force you to recycle characters. I feel that there needs to be some level of player investment for any actual attachment to occur. The fact that in Diablo 2, if you actually reached level 99, your character was as good as it could be as far as your displaceable stats are concerned. You diligently invested every point and skill and in the end you are rewarded with that little extra. Your drop rates are inherently better, similar but not exactly like the paragon MF incentive. Your skills will inherently do more. And you've had to stick to a choice and execute it to the end. And in all reality, in the end of Diablo 2's production, you really get 3 chances to re-select all those points. That's extremely generous in my opinion.
curious to everyones thoughts,
Swag
-edit, clarity and grammar
I feel like that's the point of loot. The Loot was meant to be your stat, has always been this way from the inception of D3. They said hey lets make the game about what the people love, the loot, and use that to build your character. Blizzard has also said they are already looking into a more personalized paragon level system that'd be retro active so they're definitely toying around with stat allocation ideas. Honestly though I love the no skill points I hated the synergies and having to build a path, now i can try whatever i feel like. I would have liked them to keep skill runes in their first iteration, a gold sink of items that allowed you to level up the runes rank 1-7 so that the skills progressively got better, they could've done something like the marquise gems and how hard they are to make unless you have so much gold. All in all they did a damn good job of making a base game, definitely needs some fixes and new mechanics to keep it alive. I guess that's what patches are for.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Not even Death will save you from Diablo Bunny's Cuteness!
Everyone keeps talking about itemization, which it is a very big deal. However, the other half, imo, is randomly generated zones.
Part of the replayability in Diablo and Diablo 2 was the randomly generated floors - after playing many many many many many times, a person could see certain patterns, however, it added one element Diablo 3 lacks; Diversity. It would be great if they added such element in the next major patch.
Did you get a chance to read my other posts? http://www.diablofans.com/topic/92276-patch-109-preview-a-dream/ and http://www.diablofans.com/topic/92538-patch-109-dungeons-a-dream-fanmade/ ? I talk a little bit about random dungeons and some other things. I've actually got a post in the works for end game systems, which includes PvP, PvE, and a variation of the ladder system. The post won't be ready for a couple weeks though (standing up in a couple weddings/some tight work deadlines). I totally agree though, items are a huge part of a game like Diablo but we've only really seen one way to ever get these items. I'm going to explore some new ways that haven't really been tried in a Diablo game.
@MrMonsrosity
Great ideas.
What you think about add new stash or dressing room to collecting our sets item? Each tab is for another set.
And I think idea with beam of light when we drop legend item should be for blue and yellow item too. ofc we can on/off in options which items we decide to see on the ground.
I've always thought a place to create full sets would be awesome. It would make managing your stash so much easier as well. As for the blue and yellow beams I don't think they are really necessary. The name plates as they are right now are distracting enough so I couldn't imagine a screen full of those beams. I think reserving them for the top items (legendary/sets) is plenty enough. That's of course my opinion and many others might disagree.
I love the creativity, but I have to ask. Why does everyone, including Blizzard, always say the incentive to play the game is the LOOT? Yes, it is an integral component of the game and needs to be rewarding and fulfilling, but a similarly important portion of the game (and games we used to play) comes from character progression and individuality.
Allow me to explain, breifly, what I'm talking about. For example, Diablo 3 was developed to have a new revolutionary take on ARPG's, the character leveled up, his or her stats are allocated for you, and the skills require no permanent investment. Let's assume this model has no flaws for just a moment. What happens when you play the game with all five characters, and max their levels out? One person might say they have the freedom to change their build at any moment. Is this really the case?
More often than not, the reason you can play a build is because of the way the items are designed. With such a large emphasis on items or "loot," the character or "toon" you create is arbitrary. In a classic ARPG setup, you are committed to investing time into a character, knowing that you have to have confidence in fulfilling the build you created. Yes, accidents happen, skills may get misplaced, or you may develop new interests as you play the game. But that is exactly what helps keep the endgame alive, just like the items, the characters need to cycle out as well.
By having a system where the items are so heavily incentivized it really creates an environment where the only thing you're left reinvesting, isn't your time, its your money. The vast majority of the "top" players according to sites like Diabloprogress.com aren't just lucky fanatics, they're people with fat wallets. If you were to estimate some of the values of these peoples character's gear, you would be astounded. Clearly, on an enthusiast site, I dont need to express the fact that it completely worth it for some people to invest this money in this manner. However, I feel that as it stands right now, more people are pigeonholed into spending money to try and stay afloat because the way that the itemization sits right now (largely because of how important gear is) there are so many drops that unless you have near perfect gear (the elite 1% roll) what you're currently wearing will be obselete and devalued in almost no time flat. It is a repetive gear-replacing game.
Don't get me wrong, theres nothign wrong with being satisfied with a character and getting it to max level. But thats just one way to play the game, and to limit the scope of interest by only allowing players to play that way, is damaging the game. There needs to be incentives in place to keep the characters or toons relevant, or create incentives to make new characters or toons. What I'm NOT saying is that the skill system is broken. Rather, items need to be adjusted, stats need to be adjusted, or some new method of incentive needs to be added for the toon's themselves to have some sort of INTRINSIC value.
OP has made some fantastic suggestions. If I were to keep it simple, I'd suggest that some of the most important stats are static on the items, and that like the OP suggested, drop rates are changed. Although there is some variance because of the drop-rates of ilvl 61-63 (them not all being equal drop rates) there is some variation on what legendaries you find. They need a little more structure, in my opinion. Furthermore, like I suggested before, The characters themselves need some sort of inherent value. Once you max all characters, you have almost no reason to go and play the game. PvP as it stands, atleast in my opinion, is atrocious. It literally is a free-brawl, with no structure. That's not fun to me, because its very one dimensional.
I'm a strong advocate of ladders, and a legitimate PvP system and I stand behind that. They offer value to characters, and force you to recycle characters. I feel that there needs to be some level of player investment for any actual attachment to occur. The fact that in Diablo 2, if you actually reached level 99, your character was as good as it could be as far as your displaceable stats are concerned. You diligently invested every point and skill and in the end you are rewarded with that little extra. Your drop rates are inherently better, similar but not exactly like the paragon MF incentive. Your skills will inherently do more. And you've had to stick to a choice and execute it to the end. And in all reality, in the end of Diablo 2's production, you really get 3 chances to re-select all those points. That's extremely generous in my opinion.
curious to everyones thoughts,
Swag
-edit, clarity and grammar
I think you'll be really happy with the expansion. I think they're working on doing exactly what you're asking but with in regards of giving Paragon Levels some interesting stat distribution points or traits to customize your characters.
I've got a pretty neat idea for a future post I'm working on specifically for PvP and ladders which I think will be right down your alley. A ladder but not in the traditional sense.
At the risk of being 'that guy,' all I really saw in the original post was 'let's use game theory to exponentially increase the desire to farm for many, many more hours.'
The suggestions only serve to string along even more countless micro-rewards for spamming LMB-1-2-3-4-5-6.
Of course I don't have an answer for the problem, I just don't think 'INCREASE ALL THE THINGS!' is it.
Farming is always going to be part of Diablo, it's never going away. What we're trying to create is a game where people are excited to farm and something where they can have fun gathering their items. Yeah there could be new things to eventually do after you've gathered your items (PvP, new dungeons, etc) but the search (farming) for better items will always be part of the game.
I have created this account solely to comment on this post.
An awesome ideas and in my book, OP should be hired by Blizzard right off the bat. What an OP suggested here is pretty much what is missing from the game for me and I bet that it's the same with majority of other players.
Hopefully Blizz will get this ideas seriously and will try to get them in the game at some point.
+1 for OP for putting this up and making it crystal clear for the readers.
Thanks and welcome to Diablofans. There's many good posts that the members here have been posting for a long time, you should stick around it's a pretty good community.
Everyone keeps talking about itemization, which it is a very big deal. However, the other half, imo, is randomly generated zones.
Part of the replayability in Diablo and Diablo 2 was the randomly generated floors - after playing many many many many many times, a person could see certain patterns, however, it added one element Diablo 3 lacks; Diversity. It would be great if they added such element in the next major patch.
Did you get a chance to read my other posts? http://www.diablofan...review-a-dream/ and http://www.diablofan...-dream-fanmade/ ? I talk a little bit about random dungeons and some other things. I've actually got a post in the works for end game systems, which includes PvP, PvE, and a variation of the ladder system. The post won't be ready for a couple weeks though (standing up in a couple weddings/some tight work deadlines). I totally agree though, items are a huge part of a game like Diablo but we've only really seen one way to ever get these items. I'm going to explore some new ways that haven't really been tried in a Diablo game.
@MrMonsrosity
Great ideas.
What you think about add new stash or dressing room to collecting our sets item? Each tab is for another set.
And I think idea with beam of light when we drop legend item should be for blue and yellow item too. ofc we can on/off in options which items we decide to see on the ground.
I've always thought a place to create full sets would be awesome. It would make managing your stash so much easier as well. As for the blue and yellow beams I don't think they are really necessary. The name plates as they are right now are distracting enough so I couldn't imagine a screen full of those beams. I think reserving them for the top items (legendary/sets) is plenty enough. That's of course my opinion and many others might disagree.
I love the creativity, but I have to ask. Why does everyone, including Blizzard, always say the incentive to play the game is the LOOT? Yes, it is an integral component of the game and needs to be rewarding and fulfilling, but a similarly important portion of the game (and games we used to play) comes from character progression and individuality.
Allow me to explain, breifly, what I'm talking about. For example, Diablo 3 was developed to have a new revolutionary take on ARPG's, the character leveled up, his or her stats are allocated for you, and the skills require no permanent investment. Let's assume this model has no flaws for just a moment. What happens when you play the game with all five characters, and max their levels out? One person might say they have the freedom to change their build at any moment. Is this really the case?
More often than not, the reason you can play a build is because of the way the items are designed. With such a large emphasis on items or "loot," the character or "toon" you create is arbitrary. In a classic ARPG setup, you are committed to investing time into a character, knowing that you have to have confidence in fulfilling the build you created. Yes, accidents happen, skills may get misplaced, or you may develop new interests as you play the game. But that is exactly what helps keep the endgame alive, just like the items, the characters need to cycle out as well.
By having a system where the items are so heavily incentivized it really creates an environment where the only thing you're left reinvesting, isn't your time, its your money. The vast majority of the "top" players according to sites like Diabloprogress.com aren't just lucky fanatics, they're people with fat wallets. If you were to estimate some of the values of these peoples character's gear, you would be astounded. Clearly, on an enthusiast site, I dont need to express the fact that it completely worth it for some people to invest this money in this manner. However, I feel that as it stands right now, more people are pigeonholed into spending money to try and stay afloat because the way that the itemization sits right now (largely because of how important gear is) there are so many drops that unless you have near perfect gear (the elite 1% roll) what you're currently wearing will be obselete and devalued in almost no time flat. It is a repetive gear-replacing game.
Don't get me wrong, theres nothign wrong with being satisfied with a character and getting it to max level. But thats just one way to play the game, and to limit the scope of interest by only allowing players to play that way, is damaging the game. There needs to be incentives in place to keep the characters or toons relevant, or create incentives to make new characters or toons. What I'm NOT saying is that the skill system is broken. Rather, items need to be adjusted, stats need to be adjusted, or some new method of incentive needs to be added for the toon's themselves to have some sort of INTRINSIC value.
OP has made some fantastic suggestions. If I were to keep it simple, I'd suggest that some of the most important stats are static on the items, and that like the OP suggested, drop rates are changed. Although there is some variance because of the drop-rates of ilvl 61-63 (them not all being equal drop rates) there is some variation on what legendaries you find. They need a little more structure, in my opinion. Furthermore, like I suggested before, The characters themselves need some sort of inherent value. Once you max all characters, you have almost no reason to go and play the game. PvP as it stands, atleast in my opinion, is atrocious. It literally is a free-brawl, with no structure. That's not fun to me, because its very one dimensional.
I'm a strong advocate of ladders, and a legitimate PvP system and I stand behind that. They offer value to characters, and force you to recycle characters. I feel that there needs to be some level of player investment for any actual attachment to occur. The fact that in Diablo 2, if you actually reached level 99, your character was as good as it could be as far as your displaceable stats are concerned. You diligently invested every point and skill and in the end you are rewarded with that little extra. Your drop rates are inherently better, similar but not exactly like the paragon MF incentive. Your skills will inherently do more. And you've had to stick to a choice and execute it to the end. And in all reality, in the end of Diablo 2's production, you really get 3 chances to re-select all those points. That's extremely generous in my opinion.
curious to everyones thoughts,
Swag
-edit, clarity and grammar
I think you'll be really happy with the expansion. I think they're working on doing exactly what you're asking but with in regards of giving Paragon Levels some interesting stat distribution points or traits to customize your characters.
I've got a pretty neat idea for a future post I'm working on specifically for PvP and ladders which I think will be right down your alley. A ladder but not in the traditional sense.
At the risk of being 'that guy,' all I really saw in the original post was 'let's use game theory to exponentially increase the desire to farm for many, many more hours.'
The suggestions only serve to string along even more countless micro-rewards for spamming LMB-1-2-3-4-5-6.
Of course I don't have an answer for the problem, I just don't think 'INCREASE ALL THE THINGS!' is it.
Farming is always going to be part of Diablo, it's never going away. What we're trying to create is a game where people are excited to farm and something where they can have fun gathering their items. Yeah there could be new things to eventually do after you've gathered your items (PvP, new dungeons, etc) but the search (farming) for better items will always be part of the game.
I have created this account solely to comment on this post.
An awesome ideas and in my book, OP should be hired by Blizzard right off the bat. What an OP suggested here is pretty much what is missing from the game for me and I bet that it's the same with majority of other players.
Hopefully Blizz will get this ideas seriously and will try to get them in the game at some point.
+1 for OP for putting this up and making it crystal clear for the readers.
Thanks and welcome to Diablofans. There's many good posts that the members here have been posting for a long time, you should stick around it's a pretty good community.
I believe you're all right, I'm optimistic about the ordeal, thats for sure. More or less what I'm saying is, I can't be the only person who's sole incentive to play the game is not the loot. I choose names for my toon's and their builds because I have a theme, or idea I've committed to, and I like the idea that every character is its own "person" or thing, and that the way the itemization was set up, personally, defeated some of my interests. The point I was trying to get across is that the loot isn't everybody's concern. From my other ARPG experience, specifically D2 (because its the most relevant to here) I would still stay loot wasn't my main incentive to play the game. I have always felt that Blizzard applied some sleight of hand to say that loot was "everybody's favorite thing" because they benefit directly from it (in the current game state, with the AH and what not) now don't get me wrong, I'm not tin-foil hatting here, I'm just firmly believe that itemization was both too highly incentivized and required for gameplay. Historically, there is more balance between inherent character design and capability that is complemented by the gear they wear, and not SOLELY the gear they wear.
So when the time comes that changes are being made and ideas are being withdrawn from the figurative hat, these are the idea's that I just want to be spoken out to the community and development team. There is a multi-angle approach to this. This game has SO much potential, and most of us that seem like we hate on the game are actually so passionate that we JUST want to see it succeed and fulfill all its potential glory.
Agreed, that shouldn't happen.
One alternative/solution could be to make the quests and exploration progress "free-roaming". So you could do everything in whatever order you wanted to. Still only one time however, until next reset.
Such as start with act 2 and clear a few areas there, jump to act 4 and clear up to Diablo, and then back to act 2 and clear some other areas. Free-roaming only available after you achieved that quest progress on your character before of course, as in no jumping to act 4 before killing Azmodan once on inferno etc.
Also, NV stack shouldn't be so high that you would only reach it near the end of a full playthrough.
In MrMonstrosity's example you could reach it "reasonably quickly" on higher MP.
Couldn't agree more. What I mean is like:
1. common legendary items (similar drop rates to current legendary items)
2. rare legendary items (items that were close to the release drop rates)
3. super rare legendary items (items that a player might find once a month if lucky)
4. mythic legendary items (many people might not ever see these)
The item rarity doesn't need to be connected to their power, but they should provide something unique. Obviously some items will be more powerful for a specific build, but all legendary should provide something unique to them.
I still remember getting my hands on the first Visk'ag sword from vanilla Onyxia. I was the only person on my server to have it for the longest time, it was pretty rare. I think like a 5% drop rate or something.
Very interesting concept.
Yes traveling back and forth through acts like in Diablo 2 would be nice and would fully address this.
MrMonstrosity's examples seem high in a few instances but these can be changed and addressed based on what data Blizzard has. I normally don't pay attention to what people offer as a number example since it's a "best guess" with little information. I agree that 500 is too high, but overall the example gives you an idea of what he is looking for.
Isn't having everything the same better though? Since most people are drawn to efficiency they tend to ignore everything else and do the same boring runs. Your "punishment" for choosing something different for the sake of sanity is less potential gear. I rather have everything "relatively" the same so I can change up the scenery.
I do know that FM is the most efficient route at this time but parts of act 2 & 3 aren't much worse and it's nice not doing the same run ALL the time. How would having nearly the same efficiency in multiple places in the game be a negative factor? I'm pretty sure most players were happy for the monster density patch and got away from doing act 3 runs for months.
WoW is not the standard that Diablo 3 should be living up too. Diablo 2 is. IMO WoW is horribale.
That being said PVP was huge in D2. It help fuel trading, character build and acted as a major end game for many people. Wether it was free for all pvp, private duels and pkrs.
The fact that D3 pvp is worse then D2 pvp in ever way possible is not what the fans want.
People have been very vocal about this, for a long time. Most people just gave up after brawling was added.. D3 devs are just oblivious and can't do anything right, or is it done purposely?. I think they honestly think that brawling is 'good enough' and Diablo is just about items...lol
I am a little puzzled why so much was left out. I mean there are even screen shots of this advertised a year ago. So it wasn't just on paper. I'm specifically speaking about the banner improvements i.e. skulls at the base, streamers for higher AP, Ornaments for Arena play.
But also Arena Deathmatch was early advertised, why never put it in? It may just be my paranoia but I have a growing suspicion that the true D3 game was carved up into 2 maybe 3 segments to be slowly fed to us in the form of an expansion.
Now I wouldn't say this is a developer issue and probably has alot to do with the Executives and Marketing department at Blizzard. If the developers had it their way I'm sure they wouldn't have done that to us ... Right?
...Which to the overwhelming majority it true.
Most, if not all, of these ideas would breathe some fresh life into Diablo 3.
Blizzard needs to hire you as a creative developer.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/10509961/community-commentary-the-potential-of-loot-20-7-25-2013#latest
Hopefully they read some of the other really great ideas people are posting in this discussion. Good work everyone, keep the ideas flowing.
I don't know if it is a particularly good idea, but I personally always thought it would be cool if your equipment gained levels or power right along you.
Example 1:
Blade of the Hunger
-special effect: A portion of demonic power is absorbed with each slaughtered group of elites. This demonic power also begins to dissipate each time the blade's owner goes cold.
Example 2:
Stubborn Armor of the Juggernaut
-special effect: Each attack endured further hardens the armor's metal. Attacks that inflict overkill have the adverse effect.
Example 3:
Alchemist's Addiction
-special effect: The time between potions begins to shorten as each passing drink becomes a blur. Too long of breaks in between potions slows this gain.
So essentially pieces of equipment would require you to do different things to earn experience towards their own levels. Potentially the player could apply the bonus power to the piece of equipment in a manner of their choosing (ias/dmg/crit).Maybe level 1-10, and best yet you could add motivation to stay away from the AH. If you buy from AH it gets reset to level 1.
Oh, they certainly have. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/10509961/community-commentary-the-potential-of-loot-20-7-25-2013#best
Ha. Bagstone.
Part of the replayability in Diablo and Diablo 2 was the randomly generated floors - after playing many many many many many times, a person could see certain patterns, however, it added one element Diablo 3 lacks; Diversity. It would be great if they added such element in the next major patch.
Allow me to explain, breifly, what I'm talking about. For example, Diablo 3 was developed to have a new revolutionary take on ARPG's, the character leveled up, his or her stats are allocated for you, and the skills require no permanent investment. Let's assume this model has no flaws for just a moment. What happens when you play the game with all five characters, and max their levels out? One person might say they have the freedom to change their build at any moment. Is this really the case?
More often than not, the reason you can play a build is because of the way the items are designed. With such a large emphasis on items or "loot," the character or "toon" you create is arbitrary. In a classic ARPG setup, you are committed to investing time into a character, knowing that you have to have confidence in fulfilling the build you created. Yes, accidents happen, skills may get misplaced, or you may develop new interests as you play the game. But that is exactly what helps keep the endgame alive, just like the items, the characters need to cycle out as well.
By having a system where the items are so heavily incentivized it really creates an environment where the only thing you're left reinvesting, isn't your time, its your money. The vast majority of the "top" players according to sites like Diabloprogress.com aren't just lucky fanatics, they're people with fat wallets. If you were to estimate some of the values of these peoples character's gear, you would be astounded. Clearly, on an enthusiast site, I dont need to express the fact that it completely worth it for some people to invest this money in this manner. However, I feel that as it stands right now, more people are pigeonholed into spending money to try and stay afloat because the way that the itemization sits right now (largely because of how important gear is) there are so many drops that unless you have near perfect gear (the elite 1% roll) what you're currently wearing will be obselete and devalued in almost no time flat. It is a repetive gear-replacing game.
Don't get me wrong, theres nothign wrong with being satisfied with a character and getting it to max level. But thats just one way to play the game, and to limit the scope of interest by only allowing players to play that way, is damaging the game. There needs to be incentives in place to keep the characters or toons relevant, or create incentives to make new characters or toons. What I'm NOT saying is that the skill system is broken. Rather, items need to be adjusted, stats need to be adjusted, or some new method of incentive needs to be added for the toon's themselves to have some sort of INTRINSIC value.
OP has made some fantastic suggestions. If I were to keep it simple, I'd suggest that some of the most important stats are static on the items, and that like the OP suggested, drop rates are changed. Although there is some variance because of the drop-rates of ilvl 61-63 (them not all being equal drop rates) there is some variation on what legendaries you find. They need a little more structure, in my opinion. Furthermore, like I suggested before, The characters themselves need some sort of inherent value. Once you max all characters, you have almost no reason to go and play the game. PvP as it stands, atleast in my opinion, is atrocious. It literally is a free-brawl, with no structure. That's not fun to me, because its very one dimensional.
I'm a strong advocate of ladders, and a legitimate PvP system and I stand behind that. They offer value to characters, and force you to recycle characters. I feel that there needs to be some level of player investment for any actual attachment to occur. The fact that in Diablo 2, if you actually reached level 99, your character was as good as it could be as far as your displaceable stats are concerned. You diligently invested every point and skill and in the end you are rewarded with that little extra. Your drop rates are inherently better, similar but not exactly like the paragon MF incentive. Your skills will inherently do more. And you've had to stick to a choice and execute it to the end. And in all reality, in the end of Diablo 2's production, you really get 3 chances to re-select all those points. That's extremely generous in my opinion.
curious to everyones thoughts,
Swag
-edit, clarity and grammar
The suggestions only serve to string along even more countless micro-rewards for spamming LMB-1-2-3-4-5-6.
Of course I don't have an answer for the problem, I just don't think 'INCREASE ALL THE THINGS!' is it.
An awesome ideas and in my book, OP should be hired by Blizzard right off the bat. What an OP suggested here is pretty much what is missing from the game for me and I bet that it's the same with majority of other players.
Hopefully Blizz will get this ideas seriously and will try to get them in the game at some point.
+1 for OP for putting this up and making it crystal clear for the readers.
I feel like that's the point of loot. The Loot was meant to be your stat, has always been this way from the inception of D3. They said hey lets make the game about what the people love, the loot, and use that to build your character. Blizzard has also said they are already looking into a more personalized paragon level system that'd be retro active so they're definitely toying around with stat allocation ideas. Honestly though I love the no skill points I hated the synergies and having to build a path, now i can try whatever i feel like. I would have liked them to keep skill runes in their first iteration, a gold sink of items that allowed you to level up the runes rank 1-7 so that the skills progressively got better, they could've done something like the marquise gems and how hard they are to make unless you have so much gold. All in all they did a damn good job of making a base game, definitely needs some fixes and new mechanics to keep it alive. I guess that's what patches are for.
Did you get a chance to read my other posts? http://www.diablofans.com/topic/92276-patch-109-preview-a-dream/ and http://www.diablofans.com/topic/92538-patch-109-dungeons-a-dream-fanmade/ ? I talk a little bit about random dungeons and some other things. I've actually got a post in the works for end game systems, which includes PvP, PvE, and a variation of the ladder system. The post won't be ready for a couple weeks though (standing up in a couple weddings/some tight work deadlines). I totally agree though, items are a huge part of a game like Diablo but we've only really seen one way to ever get these items. I'm going to explore some new ways that haven't really been tried in a Diablo game.
I've always thought a place to create full sets would be awesome. It would make managing your stash so much easier as well. As for the blue and yellow beams I don't think they are really necessary. The name plates as they are right now are distracting enough so I couldn't imagine a screen full of those beams. I think reserving them for the top items (legendary/sets) is plenty enough. That's of course my opinion and many others might disagree.
I think you'll be really happy with the expansion. I think they're working on doing exactly what you're asking but with in regards of giving Paragon Levels some interesting stat distribution points or traits to customize your characters.
I've got a pretty neat idea for a future post I'm working on specifically for PvP and ladders which I think will be right down your alley. A ladder but not in the traditional sense.
Farming is always going to be part of Diablo, it's never going away. What we're trying to create is a game where people are excited to farm and something where they can have fun gathering their items. Yeah there could be new things to eventually do after you've gathered your items (PvP, new dungeons, etc) but the search (farming) for better items will always be part of the game.
Thanks and welcome to Diablofans. There's many good posts that the members here have been posting for a long time, you should stick around it's a pretty good community.
I believe you're all right, I'm optimistic about the ordeal, thats for sure. More or less what I'm saying is, I can't be the only person who's sole incentive to play the game is not the loot. I choose names for my toon's and their builds because I have a theme, or idea I've committed to, and I like the idea that every character is its own "person" or thing, and that the way the itemization was set up, personally, defeated some of my interests. The point I was trying to get across is that the loot isn't everybody's concern. From my other ARPG experience, specifically D2 (because its the most relevant to here) I would still stay loot wasn't my main incentive to play the game. I have always felt that Blizzard applied some sleight of hand to say that loot was "everybody's favorite thing" because they benefit directly from it (in the current game state, with the AH and what not) now don't get me wrong, I'm not tin-foil hatting here, I'm just firmly believe that itemization was both too highly incentivized and required for gameplay. Historically, there is more balance between inherent character design and capability that is complemented by the gear they wear, and not SOLELY the gear they wear.
So when the time comes that changes are being made and ideas are being withdrawn from the figurative hat, these are the idea's that I just want to be spoken out to the community and development team. There is a multi-angle approach to this. This game has SO much potential, and most of us that seem like we hate on the game are actually so passionate that we JUST want to see it succeed and fulfill all its potential glory.